It's a harsh world?

[sjanimal]

It's a harsh world?

Some people have mistaken impressions of what life might be like on Zalanthas.

Using deductive reasoning, two theorems can be established.  For example, in a recent thread where someone asked why water isn't taken from dead bodies in Zalanthas like it is in Dune, one person (an IMM I believe) said that water isn't scarce enough on Zalanthas.  Well how scarce is water?  Based on the price of water in the civilized areas, and compared to information from the World Fact book, I would guess that maybe Zalanthas is as HARSH as Somalia.  

Also, the major governments of Zalanthas are described as being corrupt.  How corrupt can they reasonably be expected to be?  Well, the government of the country where I live is a very good government, but has had some scandals lately.  So let's say it's maybe has as corrupt as the (also good) government of Mexico.  And let's say that the Mexican government is half as corrupt as the (marginally tolerable) government of Columbia.  And let's say that Columbia is only half as corrupt as the (abjectly brute) government of China.





So how does this sound?

Corruption level of larger governments -- similar to the People's Republic of China
Brutality level of larger governments -- similar to the People's Republic of China
Harshness of the terrain, landscape and tribal cultures -- similar to Somalia

Note:  I am specifically opening this up to discussion and am interested in hearing what other persons have to say on the subject.

[Larrath]

Dune, as far as I know, is pretty technologically advanced.  Getting water out of dead bodies is just not practical...you'll probably get diseased and die from it.

About the price of water, you need to compare it to the amount of money the average VNPC commoner makes a year, which is roughly 300 'sid a year.  With water, food, clothes and rent, this doesn't leave a lot to live on.


The terrain is worse than anywhere on earth simply because the temperatures are a lot higher.  You don't have clouds, you don't have groves where you can really rest in, and hunting animals for food is a lot harder.


And the governments in Zalanthas are SO corrupt that it doesn't matter where on Earth you're comparing this to.  In Zalanthas, truth is the status of the speaker.
Zalanthas is probably more brutal than you realize: Think about living in a city where people suddenly disappear without leaving a trace?  A new guy gone every week and just about everyone knows what happened to them...but they don't know if they might be next.  Or their family.  Or friends.  It's a nightmarish reality, and Allanak is a place where you can get tortured publicly just for looking a templar in the eye.

[Cavus]

This post is for Armageddon, or criticizing other countries such as China which is very complicated country in sense of its government and its power?

[jmordetsky]

So how does this sound?

Corruption level of larger governments -- similar to the People's Republic of China
Brutality level of larger governments -- similar to the People's Republic of China
Harshness of the terrain, landscape and tribal cultures -- similar to Somalia

Note:  I am specifically opening this up to discussion and am interested in hearing what other persons have to say on the subject.

While I imagine China may be brutal and corrupt..... I wouldn't compare it to the government of Allanak.

Living in Allanak would be more living in Rome under the cesear blended with living under the ottoman empire with a sprinkle of the spanish inquisition....that would sort of scratch the surface of the brutality and corruption....but really wouldn't come close.

[Bestatte]

Also, water is scarce *in the cities*. It is also scarce specifically in regions designated as desert areas, of which there are many. But water is not all -that- scarce elsewhere, for people who are willing to take the risk involved in looking for it. That is why water is expensive *in the cities and desert regions*

Also bear in mind, the code allows you to go many - MANY days - in some cases a few game-weeks, without drinking a single drop of water. That 20-50 sids will go a very long way, when you use it to buy a full waterskin.

It is a harsh world, it is a harsh fantasy world, and I really don't like comparing it to any kind of real-world countries, because the game world doesn't even take place on the real-world planet we call Earth. It takes place in a completely fabricated plane of existence that has absolutely no comparison to our solar system whatesoever, and it is entirely illogical to even attempt comparing the two.

[Gilvar]

The government of Allanak is a theocraftic, semi-parlimentary, dictatorship.

There is great dictator, and then a senate, comprised of representatives of the privledged nobility allowed to exist by the great dicator. Then there are hoardes of minions (templars), monopolistic-merchant houses, and then everyone else.

You don't have many rights, and what few rights you have can be taken at any moment by either a templar or a noble, one of which makes/interprets the laws as he goes, and the other who is simply above them.

The main water-source is controlled by the government, all major employers are the Templarate, the merchant houses, and the noble houses. There is no free enterprise, or its so small that its not really a worry. If you ever became successful on your own, you'd likely find several templars knocking at your door for a tax that was just passed, or have assassins hired by the merchant houses come after you for cutting into their business.

How corrupt can they reasonably be expected to be?

As corrupt as possible without having society cave in on them. Those enforcing or above the law obviously can't murder everyone, or make water so expensive NO ONE can buy it, or whats the point of selling it in the first place. So they need to be corrupt enough that everyone fears them, while sustaining a level of misery that keeps them free-thinking/sedition, while also working efficient as either slaves or legitimate members of houses.

So if a templar did decide to murder a whole tavern of people, there would likely be consequences. So they arn't corrupt to the point that every whim goes unchecked. Its part of a twisted web. Will killing Noble A because you don't like him possibly incur the wrath of templar B who was receiving weekly bribes? Etc.

So even corruption has its checks.

And I don't think China is this bad, and I'd rather this not turn into a China-bashing topic.

[Savak]

I'd much rather people try to gain an understanding of the structure that exists in the game than to attempt to draw comparisons with RL equivalents, in this case.  There just aren't any RL equivalents, and drawing too many comparisons I suspect will lead you down the wrong path.  On the other hand, I appreciate the fact that a good understanding of what Allanak IS, or what Tuluk IS, etc., is difficult to gain any other way than with experience.  And, of course, the society, culture, politics, etc. are in a constant state of flux.

Water is a whole other topic.  My feeling is that in some parts of Zalanthas, water IS so rare that, if they could, people would squeeze every semi-pure drop possible from a fresh carcass, blood, urine, whatever.  The relatively water rich areas still require significant and careful water management.  Widespread travel is not nearly so common as some PC's would have you believe; the average person will never leave their "home region," or may do so only once, on the greatest (worst?) trip of their lives.

-Savak

[sjanimal]

My point in generating this kind of discussion is several-fold.  

One, I would like to establish a kind of standard like the one jmordetsky has posted, because I think this will help a lot of person's roleplay (mine in particular).  A lot of players underestimate the effect of social influence on a person's actions.  I do not underestimate this influence, and would like to be better aware of it for my role-playing.

Also, there are two points that I would like to prove:

#1 -- The less abstract the subject matter is that people are learning, the more important it is to build knowledge on top of existing ideas.  This is how most people learn.  Attempting to make something too abstract (ie., by saying "Zalanthus is like nothing U have ev4 Xperienced B4 so don't compar3 it 2 NEthing. ) is counterproductive.

#2 -- People who think that Zalanthus is more brutal and harsh than anyplace on Earth obviously aren't familiar with broad regions of earth, and would do well to research some basic geography before entering related discussions.

Larrath is a perfect example.  He makes a couple of good points about water and economic condistions on Zalanthus, and then he says that Zalanthus is more harsh than ANYWHERE on earth.  This is most patently untrue.  Take the polar regions of earth, for example.  Barring logistical support from gentler regions coupled with high technology, such regions are in fact uninhabitable.  The fact that the Known World region of Zalanthus IS habitable (by hundreds of thousands of people) proves that it is less harsh than portions of Earth.  In establishing comparisons between Earth and Zalanthus, it is necessary then to figure out what harsh point of Earth Zalanthas most nearly resembles.

I feel in my heart that similar logic must apply to civil corruption and civil brutality.  If we look at examples from Earth History and Earth Current events, appauling amounts of barbarism exist and have existed for millenium.  From this, it follows that a scale can be developed for use in comparison.

[Larrath]

There is one important reason why Allanak and Tuluk have stood firmly for so long in spite of the silt horrors, bahamets, mekillots and halfling tribes:
Their leaders are HIDEOUSLY powerful mages.
Were it not for these mages, I doubt there would be more than twenty thousand humans and elves, combined, in the entire Known World.


The thing that you constantly forget, sjanimal, is the magickal aspect.
If the humans and demihumans had no access to any form of magick (elementalists or sorcerer-kings or their templar subordinates), they would simply not be able to start up their cities.

Zalanthas -is- harsh on levels that Earth has never seen.  You need to understand that the people there cannot possibly rebel because they are not over outgunned, they are outmagicked.  The dictatorship is capable of attacking them with powers that they cannot even comprehend.
How long, do you think, will a mob of 100 people last against a fireball?  How about six fireballs?


Nobody is saying that "Zalanthas is unlike anyhing you have ever known so don't try understanding it".  What we ARE saying is that Zalanthas is a world that is completely different from Earth.
You cannot take the United States as a 'regular' environment, then take a place that is worse than it and then say that Zalanthas is about as bad as that, because no world leader on Earth has ever destroyed an army by shapeshifting into a dragon and breathe death on the entire army.

Do you want to talk about the North Pole?  The Sahara Desert, maybe?
This is the type of answer I'd usually hope for AC to give, but I'll just say it like this: neither the North Pole nor the Sahara Desert have creatures that can singlehandedly destroy a small city.
Zalanthas, on the other hand, has mekillots - giant reptiles that are about the size of apartment buildings.

...Again, let's not forget that the city-states are, in large, only possible due to the power of their Sorcerer-Kings.  Had it been possible to magickally create undying fire in the North Pole, believe me that it would have been a lot easier to live in.

The word 'harsh' does not refer solely to the climate and availability of suitable temperature and nurishment; it also refers to the way that world behaves on a social level and generally the lifestyle an average person will be forced to live there.


If you are looking to find a current or past state that is close enough to compare to Zalanthas, just give up.  Zalanthas is a magickal world as where Earth is not, and this magick plays a tremendous part in the way it is shaped.

[My 2 sids]

Zalanthus is very complicated and logical, for a game.  Although we have to, as humans living on Earth, base our game play in reality Zalanthus cannot and should not be compared to anything on Earth.  Earth you are talking about thousands of people who have dedicated their lives to understanding why people do things, how societies function.  This is a game.  A hand full of people using their off time and general understanding to create a world.  There is simply no comparison to make.  If you want totally realistic and absolutely logical society rules let me point you to the nearest Soc/ Pol/ Psy/ History departments at your local college.  

As Larrath has pointed out, no matter how hated and down played cantrips and the like are in game, magick is still a very powerful force on Zalanthus. If you're having trouble accepting why things are like they are in game, simply chalk it up to magick.  Or simply remember this game is payed for and played by everyday folk for enjoyment.  They can make up their own rules.

[jhunter]

There is simply no comparison to make.

[Cuusardo]

I picture Zalanthas to be somewhat similar to the desert world that the people in the movie Stargate come across.  Ra and his minions are like Tektolnes and his templars, and the people of the city are the poor, illiterate denizens of Allanak.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

I picture Zalanthas to be somewhat similar to the desert world that the people in the movie Stargate come across.  Ra and his minions are like Tektolnes and his templars, and the people of the city are the poor, illiterate denizens of Allanak.

I love this comparison, as it usually tends to be how I see it.

Another thing I usually tend to think, is that the humanoids means of survival in Zalanthas is NOT the same as that in our world.

I mean, could any of us actually survive in the desert for an hour with an obsidian breastplate on, fighting and riding around in such heat? We'd probably die within the hour. You have to consider that with such a lack of resources over the centuries, evolution has taken a few steps towards survival.

As for the governments in Zalanthas, just think of it as... The only right you have, is the right to know that you have NO rights. There is no court system, no laws of humanity or anything of the like. You are simply filth with one purpose, and that's to fill a spot in what your 'King' feels is the most dominant place on Zalanthas until something/one devours you, or someone more powerful decides you shouldn't exist. I personally can't comment on it anymore, because I find it hard to explain. All I can explain it as from my view, is your PC, and the other however many people alive are simply swine in a big ass and filthy pen.  :wink:

All I can explain it as from my view, is your PC, and the other however many people alive are simply swine in a big ass and filthy pen.  :wink:

So the god kings are Tina Turner and Mad max, templar master blaster...sorry that made me think of beyond thunderdome.

[marko]

Allanak - My Views

Allanak rose up from the sands, shouted in defiance against the raging pain of  the sun, and was protected by the Highlord.  The Highlord is the guardian of the city.  The Highlord protects and offers security in a place where death is certain.  In Allanak we find a shelter from the certain death of the wastes.  In Allanak we have a society where freedom is all but cast aside entirely for the sake of the protection and embrace of security.

Every citizen of Allanak knows that they are protected from the wastes.  Every citizen knows that they are alive because of the protection provided by the Highlord and, by extension, the servants of the Highlord.  This inherent understanding that they live solely through the protection of their Highlord allows for a tolerance of oppression and corruption that would otherwise not be accepted.

The Highlord's rule is brutal and without mercy.  Justice is swift and brutal.  The entire society is kept secure through acts of brutality to remind its citizens of how the world is.  People are executed in public not only for breaking the law but so the rest of the citizens can be thankful that they are not "them."  The oppression of the Highlord cannot be stressed enough.  The city is in perpetual martial law and its Templars are the Law.

Common life in Allanak is not pretty but it is life.  This is the essential clue as to why Allanak's people accept the brutality and oppression of day to day existence.  This is why the Templarate is feared and revered at the same time.  This is why a commoner might piss themselves when a Templar of any robe approaches them.  Their spark of life that they cling to may be at an end.  Not necessarily because they did something wrong but because it is the Will of the Highlord.

The people of Allanak know how the city works.  The city works with the black blood of the Highlord.  Obsidian makes the city work.  Obsidian smooths the edges and allows the rich to become richer and the poor to manage to make just enough to live.  Everyone knows that if you have the coin you can certainly do anything.  Everyone knows that only the favored of the Highlord can make enough coin to do anything.  Therefore, the correlation is that the rich are supposed to be powerful.  The rich are supposed to be able to do everything a commoner is unable to.  This very basic thought gives the commoners enough hope to scrounge for every coin, the hope of a better life.

While coin gives greater freedoms it is blood that gives rulership.  Blood denotes the true powers of Allanak.  Everyone knows that blood makes a real difference.  You need only look at what commoners look like compared to nobility.  Nobles appear to always be healthy, well fed, and powerful.  A commoner understands and simply knows that this is because a Noble is a Noble.
A commoner knows and understands that they can never be a Noble because they do not have the proper blood.  A commoner knows and understands that the Highlord has blessed the Nobles to be Noble.  A Noble is beyond the dream of any commoner.  To even be looked at by a Noble is an honor and a privilege (or perhaps a fright and a death warrant).  A Noble is, simply put, better than a commoner and commoners know this.  A Noble is also beyond the Laws that commoners must obey.  This means that every commoner knows that a Noble can do "very bad things" to them.

The currency of power in Allanak is the black blood of Obsidian.  The powerful are almost always the very rich.  Therefore, the powerful show off their power by revealing their wealth.  This wealth is displayed through luxuriant clothing that has no practical use (Nobility is supposed to excel at this) or through the spreading of coin.  With this we come to the concept of "corruption" in Allanak and how does it work.

The Laws in Allanak favor the rich and powerful.  This is mostly because the rich and powerful assist in making the Law through the Senate.  To be rich and powerful one needs coin and to show it off.  A commoner could have five hundred thousand (500,000) obsidian in the bank but if they dress in rags and are frugal if they are caught and don't speak fast enough - they are liable to end up with a body without a head.  Therefore, it is in the best interest of the rich and powerful to appear to be rich and powerful.  This means that the rich will spread coin to ensure that everyone understands that they have power.

A Noble granting a "gift" of obsidian to a Templar is telling the Templar two things.  First, that the Noble is entrusted with coin from their House and therefore has some say (no matter how small) in the affairs of the House.  Let us remember that Junior Nobles tend to have very little say - but they do have a very little say.  The second thing is that the Noble is informing the Templar that they support them.  By providing funding for a Templar's activities the Noble secures a reciprocative amount of support.  This bribe, as it would be termed in modern western culture, is really a matter of saying, "I support you in your ventures, I deem you worthy."  

A Commoner (this includes Merchants) granting a "gift" of obsidian to a Templar is also telling the Templar two things.  The first is that the Commoner is revealing to the Templar that the Commoner has wealth and therefore a modicum of power.  While some may think that a Merchant obviously has power and wealth this is not the case.  Many Merchant barely make by.  The second thing that the Commoner is doing is securing a "safety net" in case something happens.  This is a form of insurance for the Commoner in that should anything "bad" occur to the Commoner the Templar will look into it and / or protect the Commoner.  The level of involvement from the Templar will be entirely dependant on the value of the "gift."  

These gifts are not static due to the nature of life.  Therefore, gifts are typically regularly scheduled events whereby the ties to a specific Templar are renewed.  A Templar who is operating on behalf of a gifted party and finds that the funding has stopped will, invariably, stop assisting.

Now, at a lower level, this same system of open bribery exists in a lesser form.  For example, soldiers might be paid off by a 'rinth rat who is securing the safety net that should they fail in a theft the soldier will look the other way (of course, other soldiers won't be affected by such individual agreements).  Between commoners gifts may be passed back and forth in an attempt to sway decisions, to apologize, to show support, etc..

Returning to the nature of the oppression.  The Laws of Allanak are designed to ensure the security of the Citizens.  The best way to enact these laws is through random selection, profiling, and opportunistic situations.  This means that Templars are allowed to randomly approach people and inquire as to what laws they have broken.  The randomness of these events keeps the citizens fearful enough that they will not rise up.  Further, when they see another being picked on,the immense measure of relief is good for their soul.

When caught by a Templar we return back to the basic measurement of power.  A Templar really does not want to mess with the powerful (but note, many will do so out of 'necessity' or if someone of greater power has 'suggested' it).  Therefore, if one is a law breaker then they have to be quick with the tongue and the coin to reveal that, hey, they are indeed powerful.  Powerful enough to, for example, have a few hundred coin in their pocket.  Someone with nothing to offer isn't worth leaving alive.  Their death becomes more valuable then their continued existence.  

The basics of fines is to cover the expense of capturing a criminal.  The basics of good bribery is to show a Templar that they are dealing with someone who can offer them something and is worth leaving alive.  Even criminals are worth being left alive if they provide a steady income to the Templarate.  After all, they have the power of that black blood of the Highlord.

Now, on to a final point.  While the government of Allanak is rife with corruption that does not mean that everyone is corrupt.  There are, in fact, soldiers, Templars, and Nobles who honestly believe in justice, truth, and mercy.  They just happen to be more infrequently played than the ones who embrace the corruption for what it is - the way of staying alive in Allanak.

When I have time, I'll write up something similar for Tuluk.

[Rindan]

I think that the most important aspect to Zalanthas city life is the fact that not only does God exist, but he is one very nasty mother fucker.  Take your great theocracies in Earth history and realize that no matter how you try and compare them, you can't escape the fact that they were ruled by humans.  They might have tried to interpret God's will, but the simple fact of the matter is that God himself never came down for all to see and declare his will.  Further, God never proved his existence in such a powerful and meaningful was as giving all of his priests the ability fling fireballs at will.  The effect that has on a society has to be profound and make rebellion damn near impossible.  

Just imagine what the effect of not only knowing that God was close by, but that you can physically see where he lives and see the agents of his will instilled with his power wandering the streets.  I am not saying rebellion is impossible, but you better believe it is the last thing on the vast majority of the population's mind.  It is one thing to commit a crime that God doesn't really give two shits about it.  It is another thing though to rise your head high enough for a very angry Dragon god to notice.

So, yes it might be worthwhile to look to other civilizations for inspiration, just realize that Allanak (and Tuluk) is built in a way that is completely unique.  There have been places where people believed that their rulers were gods, but no place where the rulers gave out terrible and very tangible powers to his followers and occasionally took to the sky to kick ass himself.

[Tamarin]

Further, God never proved his existence in such a powerful and meaningful was as giving all of his priests the ability fling fireballs at will.

They didn't???  Damn...I hope my former high school bothered to replace its faulty textbooks...

[Ghost]

You have every right to jump on me if I am wrong but...

Dont you think a mob of four to five hundred, might have projectile weapons, and such.. And they might fire them to the templars (and no templar is immune to arrows and hurled knives/spears/axes)

And also fireball is effective when the mob is away from you.  If they are close, really close to the mob, the fireball will strike them too. So generalizing, area effective spells are not to be used at close quarters.  And if the templar is hurling the magick from a distance, the crowd might hurl some other form of magickal and nonmagickal attack.  Not a risk to take.   Also..  Renegade magicians, or rinthi elven magicians, might just think this as an opportunity to shoot back with their own magick.

Dont you think this is possible?

[Larrath]

Everything is possible, but the fact is that the templars, who are posted at just about every corner, generally don't care if they killed twenty innocents and burned someone's stall with their fireball or whatever other spell they used.
Not to go into any magick discussion, I'll just say that there is at least one spell that would stop a crowd like this with sheer perfection.  In fact, if you read the player logs thoroughly enough, you'll be able to glimpse at it.


Now, a crowd of 500 people will have to move somehow; if a fireball explodes in the middle and turns half of them into ash, most of the crowd will panic and start trampling each other as they scramble to escape.
Sure, maybe the frontliners can throw a couple of rocks or even javelins, but I wouldn't expect them to stand in formation and get everyone ready with longbows and tower shields.

Area-affective spells are not the only way to handle this, but in theory, how successful do you think this particular campagin be?

Psst, hey there, I'm with the Rebels...yeah.  Listen, we're planning an attack on one of the thousand Blue-Robed Templars in Allanak.  It's going to be all five hundred of us against him and his guards...yeah, most of us probably won't come back and our families will be hunted down and whoever does survive will probably be tortured to death and everyone else will have to pay some more taxes, but I've got a mean hand with a rock.  What do you say there, Buddy?  With some work, I bet we can even give him a cut on the forehead!


Everything can happen, the question is whether someone will be able to really organize this without alerting one of the many spies (note that 'Nakkers traditionally exist in constant spy-induced paranoia, according to the docs) or managing to get enough people with them.
I'm not saying it's impossible - hell, I even saw this happen once, and suffice to say that the way that particular event was resolved will probably discourage any other rebels for the next decade.

Another point that you have to remember is that while blue-robed templars are much more 'vulnerable' to these attacks and while they wield nigh-ultimate power as far as the regular commoner is concerned, they're counted somewhere in the high hundreds, and most people will realize that unless they manage to get a Black-Robe (or at least a Red-Robe), they probably won't make such a huge impact.

[Rindan]

I think obviously that a large enough mob probably could kill a surprised templar, but it would be a pretty futile gesture and probably assure the death of every person involved.  Hell, you don't even need a mob to throw a spear through a templar.  10 determined commoners might be enough.  The problem is that 10 or a thousand determined commoners might not actually be enough.  Templars have more then just fire balls they can throw.  

Imagine if you some how manage to gather a mob in secret, then decide to go rampage all at once.  Your mob is marching through the street and it is big enough to scare away the regular militia patrols.  Maybe you even catch a templar off guard and manage to spear him.  As you are marching down the empty streets of Miner's road with your mob (everyone at this point has fled at of your way), suddenly a wall of fire tears its way across the road right behind you, cutting off escape.  In front of the mob steps a handful of half-giant body guards with a handful of templars behind them.   With a flick of the wrist the templars start (fill in IC magikal horrors here, and don't limit your imagination to fire balls).  The crowd panics, caught between a small group of templars unleashing untold death and destruction and a wall of fire.  Once the crowd is sufficiently panicked and disorganized the streets suddenly fill with half-giant militia.  Massive creatures that weigh thousands of pounds slog their way through the panicked crowd, killing multiple commoners with each swing of their massive weapons.  Regular militia then come out by the hundreds.  At the end of the day everyone is either captured or killed.  The killed are probably the lucky ones as the captured are brutally and publicly tortured and executed.

Why on earth would you rebel against such powerful people?  Even if a rebellion managed to convince a sizable portion of the Allanaki populace to go up the templars, militia, and elementalist, even if these people didn't have more then enough power to kill every single commoner, what would they do after that?  They no longer have magical protection to keep Tuluk from invading, and they no longer have the tempelrate to provide food and water for the population.  There is nothing to win in an a rebellion against Allanak.

[wizturbo]

To return to the topic of the original post...

Zalanthas is in EVERY WAY more harsh then the real world.

1)  The creatures that live in Zalanthas are significantly more dangerous then anything on earth.

2)  The climate is more harsh then anywhere on earth.  The only reason you don't recognize it, is that your life has adapted on Zalanthas in order to survive.

3)  The corruption is greater then anywhere on Earth.  

4)  The governments are harsher, because they have tools far more potent to stay in power then anything on Earth.  Psionics, magicks, and enormously powerful armies consisting of races far more dangerous then the common human can crush any open resistance with ease.  And ferret out covert resistance as well.  How can you hide from magickal and psionic espionage available to the powerful Sorceror-Kings?

5)  The average standard of living is comparable to the poorest countries anywhere.  Most people do not survive to adulthood, let alone old age.



Now, this is not to say you cannot draw comparisons from the real world to try and help your roleplaying, but you must understand there is no perfect comparison.  You must use your imagination, and try to picture what the world would be like, and then try to fit into that image.   By communicating with the players and staff of what you think this "image" is, you can see if your close or not.

[Angela Christine]

2)  The climate is more harsh then anywhere on earth.  The only reason you don't recognize it, is that your life has adapted on Zalanthas in order to survive.

In general that is true.  The climate in most of the known world is nastier than any place on earth.  However, there are many places that are not lush paradises but are still not as bad as Antarctica or Death Valley.  

4)  The governments are harsher, because they have tools far more potent to stay in power then anything on Earth.  

I think that is only part of the story.  They are not only harsher because they can be, they are harsher because they MUST be.  There is very little margine for error in keeping massive cities alive in a hostile climate full of hostile, monsterous creatures.  

In a way, you could even consider the *existance* of the Labyrinth as an act of divine mercy. :twisted:  It provides shelter to the lowest of the low, and the possibility for them to survive and work their way back into mainstream society.  A harsher government would glass the 'rinth, and then excecute, banish or enslave anyone who couldn't afford to live in the city.

5)  The average standard of living is comparable to the poorest countries anywhere.  Most people do not survive to adulthood, let alone old age.  

Based on the docs and the CIA worldbook, I have to disagree.  The life expectancy in the Known world is actually longer than that of India.  :shock:  PCs die at an alarming rate in a variety of unlikely ways, but that is because PCs are all suicidally reckless or just plain insane.  Normal people that chose to follow (boring) lawful careers in lawful areas can expect to live into their 60s, and see their grandchildren.


Angela Christine

[sjanimal]

I consider this to be a Living Document:

Living in Allanak would be more living in Rome under the cesear blended with living under the ottoman empire with a sprinkle of the spanish inquisition....that would sort of scratch the surface of the brutality and corruption....but really wouldn't come close.

The government of Allanak is a theocraftic, semi-parlimentary, dictatorship.

There is great dictator, and then a senate, comprised of representatives of the privledged nobility allowed to exist by the great dicator. Then there are hoardes of minions (templars), monopolistic-merchant houses, and then everyone else.

You don't have many rights, and what few rights you have can be taken at any moment by either a templar or a noble, one of which makes/interprets the laws as he goes, and the other who is simply above them.

The main water-source is controlled by the government, all major employers are the Templarate, the merchant houses, and the noble houses. There is no free enterprise, or its so small that its not really a worry. If you ever became successful on your own, you'd likely find several templars knocking at your door for a tax that was just passed, or have assassins hired by the merchant houses come after you for cutting into their business.

As corrupt as possible without having society cave in on them. Those enforcing or above the law obviously can't murder everyone, or make water so expensive NO ONE can buy it, or whats the point of selling it in the first place. So they need to be corrupt enough that everyone fears them, while sustaining a level of misery that keeps them free-thinking/sedition, while also working efficient as either slaves or legitimate members of houses.

So if a templar did decide to murder a whole tavern of people, there would likely be consequences. So they arn't corrupt to the point that every whim goes unchecked. Its part of a twisted web. Will killing Noble A because you don't like him possibly incur the wrath of templar B who was receiving weekly bribes? Etc.

So even corruption has its checks.

People who think that Zalanthus is more brutal and harsh than anyplace on Earth obviously aren't familiar with broad regions of earth, and would do well to research some basic geography before entering related discussions.

I picture Zalanthas to be somewhat similar to the desert world that the people in the movie Stargate come across. Ra and his minions are like Tektolnes and his templars, and the people of the city are the poor, illiterate denizens of Allanak.

Allanak rose up from the sands, shouted in defiance against the raging pain of the sun, and was protected by the Highlord. The Highlord is the guardian of the city. The Highlord protects and offers security in a place where death is certain. In Allanak we find a shelter from the certain death of the wastes. In Allanak we have a society where freedom is all but cast aside entirely for the sake of the protection and embrace of security.

Every citizen of Allanak knows that they are protected from the wastes. Every citizen knows that they are alive because of the protection provided by the Highlord and, by extension, the servants of the Highlord. This inherent understanding that they live solely through the protection of their Highlord allows for a tolerance of oppression and corruption that would otherwise not be accepted.

The Highlord's rule is brutal and without mercy. Justice is swift and brutal. The entire society is kept secure through acts of brutality to remind its citizens of how the world is. People are executed in public not only for breaking the law but so the rest of the citizens can be thankful that they are not "them." The oppression of the Highlord cannot be stressed enough. The city is in perpetual martial law and its Templars are the Law.

Common life in Allanak is not pretty but it is life. This is the essential clue as to why Allanak's people accept the brutality and oppression of day to day existence. This is why the Templarate is feared and revered at the same time. This is why a commoner might piss themselves when a Templar of any robe approaches them. Their spark of life that they cling to may be at an end. Not necessarily because they did something wrong but because it is the Will of the Highlord.

The people of Allanak know how the city works. The city works with the black blood of the Highlord. Obsidian makes the city work. Obsidian smooths the edges and allows the rich to become richer and the poor to manage to make just enough to live. Everyone knows that if you have the coin you can certainly do anything. Everyone knows that only the favored of the Highlord can make enough coin to do anything. Therefore, the correlation is that the rich are supposed to be powerful. The rich are supposed to be able to do everything a commoner is unable to. This very basic thought gives the commoners enough hope to scrounge for every coin, the hope of a better life.

While coin gives greater freedoms it is blood that gives rulership. Blood denotes the true powers of Allanak. Everyone knows that blood makes a real difference. You need only look at what commoners look like compared to nobility. Nobles appear to always be healthy, well fed, and powerful. A commoner understands and simply knows that this is because a Noble is a Noble.
A commoner knows and understands that they can never be a Noble because they do not have the proper blood. A commoner knows and understands that the Highlord has blessed the Nobles to be Noble. A Noble is beyond the dream of any commoner. To even be looked at by a Noble is an honor and a privilege (or perhaps a fright and a death warrant). A Noble is, simply put, better than a commoner and commoners know this. A Noble is also beyond the Laws that commoners must obey. This means that every commoner knows that a Noble can do "very bad things" to them.

The currency of power in Allanak is the black blood of Obsidian. The powerful are almost always the very rich. Therefore, the powerful show off their power by revealing their wealth. This wealth is displayed through luxuriant clothing that has no practical use (Nobility is supposed to excel at this) or through the spreading of coin. With this we come to the concept of "corruption" in Allanak and how does it work.

The Laws in Allanak favor the rich and powerful. This is mostly because the rich and powerful assist in making the Law through the Senate. To be rich and powerful one needs coin and to show it off. A commoner could have five hundred thousand (500,000) obsidian in the bank but if they dress in rags and are frugal if they are caught and don't speak fast enough - they are liable to end up with a body without a head. Therefore, it is in the best interest of the rich and powerful to appear to be rich and powerful. This means that the rich will spread coin to ensure that everyone understands that they have power.

A Noble granting a "gift" of obsidian to a Templar is telling the Templar two things. First, that the Noble is entrusted with coin from their House and therefore has some say (no matter how small) in the affairs of the House. Let us remember that Junior Nobles tend to have very little say - but they do have a very little say. The second thing is that the Noble is informing the Templar that they support them. By providing funding for a Templar's activities the Noble secures a reciprocative amount of support. This bribe, as it would be termed in modern western culture, is really a matter of saying, "I support you in your ventures, I deem you worthy."

A Commoner (this includes Merchants) granting a "gift" of obsidian to a Templar is also telling the Templar two things. The first is that the Commoner is revealing to the Templar that the Commoner has wealth and therefore a modicum of power. While some may think that a Merchant obviously has power and wealth this is not the case. Many Merchant barely make by. The second thing that the Commoner is doing is securing a "safety net" in case something happens. This is a form of insurance for the Commoner in that should anything "bad" occur to the Commoner the Templar will look into it and / or protect the Commoner. The level of involvement from the Templar will be entirely dependant on the value of the "gift."

These gifts are not static due to the nature of life. Therefore, gifts are typically regularly scheduled events whereby the ties to a specific Templar are renewed. A Templar who is operating on behalf of a gifted party and finds that the funding has stopped will, invariably, stop assisting.

Now, at a lower level, this same system of open bribery exists in a lesser form. For example, soldiers might be paid off by a 'rinth rat who is securing the safety net that should they fail in a theft the soldier will look the other way (of course, other soldiers won't be affected by such individual agreements). Between commoners gifts may be passed back and forth in an attempt to sway decisions, to apologize, to show support, etc..

Returning to the nature of the oppression. The Laws of Allanak are designed to ensure the security of the Citizens. The best way to enact these laws is through random selection, profiling, and opportunistic situations. This means that Templars are allowed to randomly approach people and inquire as to what laws they have broken. The randomness of these events keeps the citizens fearful enough that they will not rise up. Further, when they see another being picked on,the immense measure of relief is good for their soul.

When caught by a Templar we return back to the basic measurement of power. A Templar really does not want to mess with the powerful (but note, many will do so out of 'necessity' or if someone of greater power has 'suggested' it). Therefore, if one is a law breaker then they have to be quick with the tongue and the coin to reveal that, hey, they are indeed powerful. Powerful enough to, for example, have a few hundred coin in their pocket. Someone with nothing to offer isn't worth leaving alive. Their death becomes more valuable then their continued existence.

The basics of fines is to cover the expense of capturing a criminal. The basics of good bribery is to show a Templar that they are dealing with someone who can offer them something and is worth leaving alive. Even criminals are worth being left alive if they provide a steady income to the Templarate. After all, they have the power of that black blood of the Highlord.

Now, on to a final point. While the government of Allanak is rife with corruption that does not mean that everyone is corrupt. There are, in fact, soldiers, Templars, and Nobles who honestly believe in justice, truth, and mercy. They just happen to be more infrequently played than the ones who embrace the corruption for what it is - the way of staying alive in Allanak.

I think that the most important aspect to Zalanthas city life is the fact that not only does God exist, but he is one very nasty mother fucker. Take your great theocracies in Earth history and realize that no matter how you try and compare them, you can't escape the fact that they were ruled by humans. They might have tried to interpret God's will, but the simple fact of the matter is that God himself never came down for all to see and declare his will. Further, God never proved his existence in such a powerful and meaningful was as giving all of his priests the ability fling fireballs at will. The effect that has on a society has to be profound and make rebellion damn near impossible.

Just imagine what the effect of not only knowing that God was close by, but that you can physically see where he lives and see the agents of his will instilled with his power wandering the streets. I am not saying rebellion is impossible, but you better believe it is the last thing on the vast majority of the population's mind. It is one thing to commit a crime that God doesn't really give two shits about it. It is another thing though to rise your head high enough for a very angry Dragon god to notice.

So, yes it might be worthwhile to look to other civilizations for inspiration, just realize that Allanak (and Tuluk) is built in a way that is completely unique. There have been places where people believed that their rulers were gods, but no place where the rulers gave out terrible and very tangible powers to his followers and occasionally took to the sky to kick ass himself.

The life expectancy in the Known world is actually longer than that of India. PCs die at an alarming rate in a variety of unlikely ways, but that is because PCs are all suicidally reckless or just plain insane. Normal people that chose to follow (boring) lawful careers in lawful areas can expect to live into their 60s, and see their grandchildren.

Contributing Authors

Jmordetsky Gilvar Cuusardo Marko Rindan Angela Christine

[Spoon]

The life expectancy in the Known world is actually longer than that of India. PCs die at an alarming rate in a variety of unlikely ways, but that is because PCs are all suicidally reckless or just plain insane. Normal people that chose to follow (boring) lawful careers in lawful areas can expect to live into their 60s, and see their grandchildren.

I just can't agree with this part. A significant portion of the world's population lives in India, countless times more than the entire population of Zalanthas put together. It's also been discussed many yimes before than the inhabitants of Zalanthas are far more resilient than the inhabitants of Earth.

Do your geography, folks. Zalanthas isn't on the map.

[wizturbo]

One of the rare times I disagree with you AC.  I don't believe Zalanthas has a higher life expectancy then places in the real world.  

Its easy to think otherwise, because the population of the known world in Zalanthas is MUCH smaller then that of the real world.  So right now...only those strong enough to have made it still survive.  I see it as like a post apocoplyse time, where a mass genocide recently occured.

[Dracul]

Its possible that maybe the docs need to be altered about the life expectancy. (Although I would put it as a low priority)

The helpfiles have been altered from time to time. Heh...I remember once making a post about some contact skills that I had read in the helpfiles...then my post was edited and I was asked just where. And it turns out...it was no longer there.
(oh my!)

[Angela Christine]

One of the rare times I disagree with you AC.  

Heresy!  Oh, wait, I'm not a god, so I guess it is ok to disagree with me.

Following is a list of the average lifespan of members of each race on Zalanthas, in Zalanthan years:


Mantises  24  Half-giants  82  
Muls  60  Elves  92  
Humans  68  Dwarves  100  
Half-elves  76  Halflings  120  

Average lifespan, not average lifespan of nobles, just average lifespan.


Hmm, interesting that muls have a shorter lifespan than either humans or dwarves.  I wonder if that is because of some genetic anomoly in the cross-breed, or because so many die in the arena before reaching old age.  

Anyway, back to the real world:

Afganistan:
Life expectancy at birth:    
total population: 42.46 years
male: 42.27 years
female: 42.66 years (2004 est.)  

India:
Life expectancy at birth:    
total population: 63.99 years
male: 63.25 years
female: 64.77 years (2004 est.)  

Somolia:
Life expectancy at birth:    
total population: 47.71 years
male: 46.02 years
female: 49.46 years (2004 est.)  

See, several small parts of Earth have shorter specific life expectancies than that of the Known World as a whole.  


And you doubted me.  


Angela Christine

[wizturbo]

I think the docs might mean "average lifespan" to be average amount of time someone lives if they're not killed prematurely by some outside force.  And I believe that information given is also used to show how long certain races are able to live compared to humans.

Maybe a staff member could clarify?



As for the heresy....who says YOU get to decide what the message of the Church of AC is?  Your just our idolized pre-martyr figure, and I get to choose your past writings selectively to support my own goals and designs.  You try and muscle in on my gig, and that whole martyrdom thing might need to be accelerated *evil cackle*!  :-p

<3 ya AC.

[Angela Christine]

I think the docs might mean "average lifespan" to be average amount of time someone lives if they're not killed prematurely by some outside force.  

Um, maybe, but that would mean what?  Most people don't get eatten by scrabs and gortoks, most elves don't get whacked by templars, and very, very few people  are actually stupid enough to fall off the shieldwall -- I immagine those sorts of things happen far more often to PCs than to the population in general.  We think it is nasty if 20 or more PCs die in a RPT, and in some cases (particularily HRPTs) a sizeable group of VNPCs will die with them, but many more VNPCs will be staying snug and safe at home, or screaming and running away from the danger zone while foolish PCs are running toward it.

It is the average lifespan, some people die sooner and some people live much longer.  My guess is that people that eat a varied diet, get regular exercise and drink plenty of water can live into their 80s and beyond, just like on Earth.  As we know (or suspect) a few people live for centuries, much longer than people generally live on earth, though there probably aren't enough of them to seriously skew the average lifespan numbers.

Starving rinthers and heavy labour slaves on punishment details probably live much shorter lives than average.  Most slaves probably make it to the average mark, or even longer if they have valuable skills to pass on to young slaves.  If they don't die in battle (and many rarely see true battle) most guards and solders will be kept in good health throughout their youth and middle age, so they are prone to lingering to become greybeards.  The merchant classes, both in large houses and small independants, can probably make enough money to be well-fed, well-watered, and afford medicine when they need it.  Hunters and criminals are in high-risk professions, if they live into their 40s (and many don't) they will probably need to adjust their carreers or take on "aprentices" as their joints stiffen up and their reflexes slow.  Many tribes are likely to have a few venerable elders of the tribe (perhaps significantly older than 68) people who may not be able to the same physical labour as  they used to, but they are worth their weight in steel as teachers and storehouses of the tribe's history and wisdom.  Milk products are even mentioned as being valued by some tribes because they are good sources of nutrition for the elderly -- a clear indication that they have elderly and make an effort to keep them healthy.


Having your granny alive doesn't make the world less harsh.  Grannies are useful for taking care of the littles while the parents go to work, and they know a lot of stories and stuff that they can pass on as living history.  And keeping Granny alive is one more burden on the average worker, one more dependant that keeps them from buying enough clothing to dress like a PC.    Up with grannies!


AC

[Marauder Moe]

I always assumed that those numbers were average biological lifespans.  Unlike the foreign census numbers, the character creation lifespans are meant to tell players how old a new character could realistically be (or when you should start wishing up for a heart attack).  The actual statistical lifespan for Zalanthans would be much lower.  For PCs, even lower.

[Xamminy]

Dying by violence is usually not included in life expectancy calculations.  That is all I will say.

[Spoon]

I like the biological lifespan explanation. I'd quote it, but that would take far too long on my connection...

Although I'm wondering how you would work one out...... perhaps breed test tube people in really big test tubes......... But that might be a little derailing.