Author Topic: Reconciling character concept and stats  (Read 12133 times)

spawnloser

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #175 on: April 26, 2004, 12:20:56 PM »
In light of something Venomz said...I'd like to note that we all play Armageddon now...
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Crazy Hakhim

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #176 on: April 26, 2004, 12:38:46 PM »
Well not NOW, it's still down.  :P
But really, there's a point here - If you don't want it, don't use it, and it can help with backing up your roleplay with code, which while not necessary, sure helps.
7 more days!

Kalden

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #177 on: April 26, 2004, 03:48:27 PM »
Stats have a significant impact on the game. This is not a talker. It's the most code-focused MUD I have ever seen, and I find it hypocritical that all the people who rely on their skills for nearly everything insist that stats are "OOC" or simply don't matter.

Stats should have a huge impact on a character's personality. The scrawny pickpocket/urchin should have poor strength. The brawny warrior should have high strength/endurance. That's the reason they're in the profession they're in.  The urchin should be used to being shoved around. The warrior should be used to shoving people around. Ect, ect. I don't see how it's that hard to understand. Stats -are- your character. Your character will have different life experiences based on his stats. A strapping young man will find becoming a soldier is easier. A scrawny urchin will probably be turned away as a wimp.

I've played on RP MU*s that were far less code-focused, but they understood the realistic value of stats better. The difference between the thug and the beggar is mostly in stats, realistically. That's why in the 'rinth you see "muscular, healthy young men" wielding clubs versus the "filthy, bony children".

I suppose the reason that people believe stats don't matter is because the game makes them matter far less than they should realistically. Guilds(which destroy diversity) allow scrawny, pint-sized kids to be l33t warriors, and muscled, agile guys to be wimps in combat. Might as well throw realism out of the equation.

jhunter

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #178 on: April 26, 2004, 04:46:28 PM »
Not every big muscular guy is good at fighting...not every weak looking little guy is bad at fighting. Fact.

In fact it is my experience that alot of bigger guys can't really fight...because they never had any reason to learn how...people don't generally fuck with them out of fear.

I think the random stats allow for people to look tough...when they really aren't people to look weak, then they really aren't. Just like real life looks can be decieving.

With the stat ordering, every burly guy is going to be strong...every weak looking guy is going to be weak...-that's- way more unrealistic to me.

Noone has really addressed the fact that for nonhumanoids it would be unbalancing...seems like noone can't think of a decent arguement against that point.
I would like to see something other than, well they should be trusted not to do such things. That's also very unrealistic to believe that noone would abuse it.

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #179 on: April 26, 2004, 04:48:23 PM »
Go back and read what I had to say about that. I'm not gonna repeat it :)

Agent_137

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #180 on: April 26, 2004, 05:03:49 PM »
Quote from: "jhunter"
With the stat ordering, every burly guy is going to be strong...every weak looking guy is going to be weak...-that's- way more unrealistic to me.


Uh..... that doesn't make any sense. Burly people are strong. They don't necessarily have the SKILLS to fight, but they are strong. A weak looking person might have really compact muscles and be somewhat strong, but that's not the norm nor the stereotype.

Quote from: "jhunter"
Noone has really addressed the fact that for nonhumanoids it would be unbalancing...seems like noone can't think of a decent arguement against that point.


Here's one: Karma. The races that would be able to most abuse this are karma races, and they can already be abused, but the players have proven themselves worthy to act appropriately. Also, I think venomz mentioned something to the tune of
Quote
Let's look at a half-giant...how many of you have had some badass half-giants? Not many, because wisdom sucks, and that's even at AI. But Lord almighty, when you do hit....well, maybe not every one will pick wisdom as their best stat, huh? Maybe some will pick agi, or endurance, or even...maybe....strength?

wizturbo

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #181 on: April 26, 2004, 05:07:15 PM »
After reading the majority of this thread, I withdraw my ideas.  I don't want to see stats ordered.

I'm sure there are plenty of players who could handle the added control over their character creation, but I think the vast majority couldn't and would abuse it.  I'd rather suffer the pains of having mismatched stats then let twinks power-game.

As the rest of the world, the good must suffer for the mistakes of the few bad apples.

Anonymous

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #182 on: April 26, 2004, 07:48:53 PM »
Quote
Uh..... that doesn't make any sense. Burly people are strong.


Not always true, it's the same as someone having really compact muscle.

You can look big and have most of that bulk be fat.

2L2jhunter

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #183 on: April 26, 2004, 07:57:24 PM »
Sorry Xerin, but I found your arguement to that point as being very flimsy.

Elves are not a karma race...dwarves are not a karma race...with stat ordering 90% of those pcs would soon be exceptional as far as their racial weaknesses are concerned.

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #184 on: April 26, 2004, 08:04:12 PM »
Please explain to me how your argument applies to a dwarf, human, half-elf, or even an elf. Actually, never mind...I've already made my points and submitted the idea to the imms. Hopefully they'll consider it :)

Forest Junkie

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #185 on: April 26, 2004, 08:04:48 PM »
Quote from: "2L2jhunter"
Sorry Xerin, but I found your arguement to that point as being very flimsy.

Elves are not a karma race...dwarves are not a karma race...with stat ordering 90% of those pcs would soon be exceptional as far as their racial weaknesses are concerned.


I'm tired of this thread. It shoulda died, like, 12 pages ago. But anyways, hunter has my take on it.

X-D

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #186 on: April 26, 2004, 11:03:37 PM »
Still in with Jhunter and fjunkie, Also, I liked Quirk's post.

Quote
I have never made a character concept that relies on stats. Stats have no impact on personality, small impact on description and none on background. I would be quite happy to rearrange my character's stats, if I were allowed, to make him more effective at his profession, just as I pick his guild to make him effective at what I see at the time of his creation as his path in life. It would be quite flagrantly min-maxing, but I have no reason not do so - it's no twinkier than wanting a character who grows to become an old Bynner and picking Warrior as the skillset best likely to help him with that, and a good deal less than those who pick heights and weights which are at odds with their description.


Just in case anybody did not read it, not the whole thing, but I was getting ready to write almost exactly the same thing then I read his.

Not saying I want stat ordering...cause, I don't, Though, if for some very odd reason it were to go in, that there would be a point, either in char creation, or the hall of kings where you could decide if you wanted to use stat ordering or the old random with a single reroll, and if you choose stat ordering you should not have the reroll option.
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Comrade Canadia

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #187 on: April 27, 2004, 12:02:44 AM »
Since that was my first post, I'll quickly mention a second.  Keep in mind the reason I support player control over stats has nothing to do with basing your character off of your stats.  That's ludicrous.  But the stats should be based on the character.  It's a discrepancy between roleplay and code that, in my opinion, has been enough of an issue to warrant this huge thread.  Pretentiously rant about how little you care about stats, but the code exists, it SERIOUSLY affects the game, and stats are a huge part of that.... and I think that they need an update.

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jhunter2L2

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #188 on: April 27, 2004, 12:42:09 AM »
Quote
Not saying I want stat ordering...cause, I don't, Though, if for some very odd reason it were to go in, that there would be a point, either in char creation, or the hall of kings where you could decide if you wanted to use stat ordering or the old random with a single reroll, and if you choose stat ordering you should not have the reroll option.



I agree completely.

Akaramu

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #189 on: April 27, 2004, 08:59:09 AM »
Cant this thread just die already? Everyone's running in circles *sigh*

Forest Junkie

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #190 on: April 27, 2004, 11:26:25 AM »
Quote from: "Akaramu"
Cant this thread just die already? Everyone's running in circles *sigh*


We were waiting for you.

Agent_137

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #191 on: April 27, 2004, 01:13:44 PM »
yea, i'm SO over this thread.


shoo.

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #192 on: April 27, 2004, 01:15:30 PM »
It's like the "Small World" ride at Disneyland. It just goes on, and on, and on...

Quirk

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #193 on: April 27, 2004, 02:15:55 PM »
Now that I understand what people are after I have to say that this is such a ludicrous idea.

I coded for Harshlands for a good bit. Their stat system was based on a pool of points that were distributed among your stats in an order you chose, with a little associated randomness. Everyone got the same number of stat points. It was a very nice system if you like things to be fair.

Real life is not fair. Armageddon is not fair either. Some people luck out both in physical speed, strength and toughness and in the brains department; others end up mediocre at everything. The way the stat system is currently reflects this - what you get is the random throw of the dice with a few modifiers such as age, race, body shape and guild tilting it to follow general trends. You get to live with what life gives you, for better or worse. If you aren't possessed by the urge to exorcise any real-life inadequacies of musculature by creating fearsomely brawny characters, there's no problem. Let's not pretend that agility or wisdom or endurance impact the description; they don't, unless of course you have some mountain of blubber who's unable to shift his or her weight around fast enough to be agile - and even the fat can be deceptively agile, as I've learned from judo.

Really, so what if you make a character and his strength or agility or whatever isn't how you imagined it? You knew it was the luck of the draw. Are you griping that your tall muscular man is weaker than the teenager beside him? That you should automatically have a great strength value because you're tall and muscular? The logical next step after choosing the order of your stats, going by the arguments people have been pulling out here, is to let people choose just how good their stats are - no more scrawny people who're actually stronger than your tall muscular man can be allowed, so the obvious solution is to let you make your tall muscular man extra strong and penalise those who're not described as tall and muscular.

Then we'll soon live in a happy world where everyone is tall and muscular, because having any other description will impact you negatively, and finally people's chosen weights and heights will match their descriptions.

Quirk
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jmordetsky

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #194 on: April 27, 2004, 02:44:01 PM »
I'm astounded that this thread has gone for this long.
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Delirium

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #195 on: April 27, 2004, 03:24:32 PM »
I'm going to start hiring Quirk to write my posts for me.
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wizturbo

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #196 on: April 27, 2004, 05:14:25 PM »
In response to Quirk's post:

Not everyone would be tall and muscular, just enough people that it would suck.  There are people who actually focus on more then twinking their character's abilities, those people would still remain the same.  

But, I can tell from reading this thread, that there are -alot- of people who would use this as an opportunity to twink.  So I'm completely against stat ordering now.

The7DeadlyVenomz

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #197 on: April 29, 2004, 04:02:38 PM »
There are very few people who would use stat ordering to twink-out.

There are guilds and sub-guild combos that are rather advantagous. Suprisingly, not everyone uses those guilds. Apparently, not everyone is a twink.

It's the argument that everyone (or most, if you wish to get touchy about it) would use stat ordering to twink out that miffs me. I am sure that I could say that every single one of you is a twink, if I wanted to be a nit-pick.

Learn that not everyone shares the same view on twinking that you do, and that not everything is twinking. There are things that I do not feel comfortable doing that most of you do feel ok about. THere are things that I do that maybe you wouldn't.

I am positive that we will see the same diversity with stat ordering that we see currently. And by simply adding an option to forego the stat ordering, everyone can be happy with their stats. If stats don't matter, then fine. If they do, then you've a solution.
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Quirk

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #198 on: April 30, 2004, 07:26:55 AM »
Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"
Learn that not everyone shares the same view on twinking that you do, and that not everything is twinking. There are things that I do not feel comfortable doing that most of you do feel ok about. THere are things that I do that maybe you wouldn't.


I wouldn't see ordering stats advantageously as twinky at all, but quite natural, given the option, and given how little they impact the actual RP of the character's personality.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"
I am positive that we will see the same diversity with stat ordering that we see currently.


This I would very much disagree with. Think about it - currently, stats are generated more or less randomly with minor modifiers. If people had the option to choose the order of their stats, you would not see anything like a random distribution. The number of people picking endurance first would compare very poorly to those picking strength, agility or wisdom - and those last three would likely be picked highly dependent on race and guild. Almost no magicker or merchant would pick anything but wisdom first, for the same reason that people don't pick the Merchant guild and join the Byn. It would be a rare member of a thiefly class who didn't put agility top. The distribution and diversity would change radically.

Quirk
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Bestatte

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Reconciling character concept and stats
« Reply #199 on: April 30, 2004, 08:13:32 AM »
I was thinking over the characters I've had, that I actually remember the stat info about.

Out of 13 characters, 3 of which I did rerolls for, I think maybe only 3 or 4 I would've liked to reorder the stat allocations.

My 1-day (real time) elf - I was so excited that she had a kajillion stamina points and "average" strength that I didn't really care that she wasn't "all that and then some." She didn't have to be - she could run from one end of the known world to the other without breaking a sweat, and that was just fine by me :)

My first character I don't remember what her stats were, and at the time I created her I didn't pay much attention to them. I didn't even think about rerolling her in the first 2 hours of play, and given her experiences in the game, her stats had absolutely no effect at all on my RP of her. If I knew then what I know now about stat placement and rerolling, I still wouldn't have reallocated her stats because it wouldn't have changed a damned thing. She was and will always be one of my absolute favorite characters to play.

Another PC was all "good" - so there was no point in reallocating.

Another had only average wisdom and under 100 mana points, and for a magicker that's pretty rough. Given her background - that she had a natural "affinity" to Ruk (which was my explanation to how she became a magicker) - reallocating would've been a perfect solution. She didn't need endurance or strength and I would've gladly taken a dive on either of those for a single "rank" boost in wisdom.

Another I intended to be a burly bull of a woman, broad shoulders, very tall, big-boned brute-type lass. Her stats worked out for her, but if they hadn't I probably wouldn't have enjoyed playing her very much. You can't "work up to" being what your background says you already are. I'll add, that she didn't have AI anything, and the best stat she had was "very good." The worst was "average." They weren't placed exactly how I'd have liked, but it seemed to work out well enough. As a warrior, I felt that a high endurance would be the most appropriate thing for her, because she would obviously get bumped around a lot but she would recover quicker, having been made of tougher stuff than the average merchant type :)

When I look at stats now, those are the things I examine when deciding if a reroll is in order. Not what is the "optimum" min-max stat placement. But rather, what seems to make the most sense -for that specific character- to have.

So if my warrior has piss poor strength and AI wisdom, I'll definitely reroll. But if she has average or better strength, I probably would leave well enough alone. I honestly don't feel I'm alone in this methodology of "judging" my character's stats. Right now, with my current character, I'd be deliriously happy with a few extra points on my HP and MV, without any stat-changes at all - even though my stats aren't anything worth writing home about.

So really I don't see this as all that big a deal, but I definitely think it could benefit people who have characters with backgrounds that are contrary to what shows up on their statlist when they enter the game for the first time.