Author Topic: "SHUT UP, YOU HOMO."  (Read 6345 times)

Bestatte

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« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2004, 07:09:15 AM »
According to the quickstart Gorobei, you are -not- allowed to have a character like that. Your character -will not- discriminate, -will not- make comments about women being less than men, -will not- have any negative opinion of homosexuality, -will not- feel uncomfortable if promiscuity is shoved in your face.

That's what I take issue with. That this particular "official" doc states, most emphatically, that these things are -not- allowed.

I'll tell ya something: if I have a hetero character, and a homosexual character of the same gender starts hitting on them, my character -will- have a few things to say about it. If that homosexual character wants to have fun, in private, with people of their own gender, that's fine and dandy, I have no problem with it whatsoever, and my character won't have a problem with it either.

When their character starts showing amorous feelings toward my character, however, my character -will- react however I feel they should react to it. Maybe they'll be flattered and say no thanks. Maybe they'll think the idea of getting ass-reamed by another man is disgusting. Maybe they'll get curious and take them up on it. But for the docs to say "thou shalt not" have issues with it is narrowing my options for my character's behavior.

jmordetsky

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« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2004, 09:33:20 AM »
It was prolly a newb. Damn newbs.

Thats why I kill them off before they cause any trouble.

 :lol:
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Petra

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« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2004, 09:36:21 AM »
Quote from: "Bestatte"
First of all, the word "prevalent" is an exaggeration: it means "that which prevails," or, that which triumphs over something else. Homosexuality in Zalanthas does -not- prevail over heterosexuality. Unfortunately this lovely little quick-start -implies- otherwise, much to the chagrin of many of us who tried to get it changed. By specifying homosexuality as being common, but -not- mentioning that heterosexuality is -also- common, you give the newbie reader who has never played this game the impression that Armageddon is a sex game for gay people. In fact, the entire paragraph reeks of mudsex promotion.


That's exactly what I am talking about.  Perhaps I read the word prevalent differently, but to me it suggests that more people than not are gay in Zalanthas.  I think the idea here is to promote acceptance of homosexuality in game, rather than make this one big gay world.  Doubtless homosexuals are still a minority in the game world.

Petra

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« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2004, 09:49:40 AM »
...and just to throw in for the sake of playing Devil's Advocate here...

If homosexuality is widely accepted in Zalanthas and therefore calling someone one could not be construed as an insult, what makes you think pedophilism is?

jmordetsky

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« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2004, 09:57:58 AM »
Petra makes a valid point. I think that if you are going to talk about sexuality on zalanthas you have to take a serious look at how people in ancient non-judeo christian, poweful societies behaved, (rome, mongols, china, japan etc) and then remove sexism against women from the equation.

I think at that point you'll have a better concept of how it would probablly be.

Also, I can only imagine that tastes of nobles would surpass and differ from the commoners.

When I think of the nobles on zalanthas, I think Caligula. When I think of the commoners, I think Deadwood.
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sarahjc

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« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2004, 10:15:17 AM »
OK My two sids on the original post is that I think it's fine for someone to insult the fact that your PC is gay.  But I would not take any offense to the comment, I might even laugh at it, and expect a few people to raise a brow in confusion at the insult as well. Most people in game just don't think like that. I could see jealousy driving a comment of that nature perhaps if you're flavor of the week doesn't fancy you for the opposite sex.. But nothing to insinuate that it's a wrong action..

Maybe a "he doesn't prefer my kind" type of snicker I could see.. But that's about it.

((A SIDE RANT) And I know there is not supposed to be jealousy on Zalanthas but I think that is absurd. Just because you may have multiple partners, does not mean that you aren't jealous when your selected Bo of the current moment is off smoke someone else's pipe. Last I checked, it's not utopia and people still pick and choose whom they want to be with, and that can cause jealousy. Maybe not in the monogamous your mine all mine sense of the word, but perhaps in the competitive sense it must exist)

However that doesn't mean you -can't- hate gays, and that you can't have prejudice, but popular opinion will most likely get you a few confused looks, head shakes, and a general blank expression of misunderstanding. The guidelines are just guidelines.. not rules. Hell you could also walk around saying, "I speak to Tek every day at sunrise.. and he says that I have a glorious penis.." But you may be killed for it.

It would be like making fun of someone who drinks plain milk instead of chocolate milk. I mean yeah, chocolate milk may be the popular favorite, but no-one will bat an eye at your enjoyment of plain milk. The insult would have a laughable to non-existent impact.

My current PC flirts with male and female PC's alike.. She may have a preference to one or the other. But is openly flirtatious with both.. Why not? It's just the way things are.. I would say that if you are approached with that kind of insult that you should IC's show the other PC just how wrong that sort of immature and uncharacteristic notion is.. I would expect other players who may happen to be there to assist in such. Then if they choose to the pursue the notion.. then they are doing it IC. Maybe the PC is just a general nutcase.

But from what it seems like, it’s just an inexperienced player. It's like those guys in bars that fluff their chests and try to Eyeball other guys after too many beers to cause a fight.. Saying things like "What you look'n at!" then followed by a huffy "Fag!"

It has no place here.. Grow up.. and read the docs.. But that's just MHO.

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spawnloser

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Re: Well here is my theory as to why a bias?
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2004, 10:30:47 AM »
Quote from: "Dead Newbie"
In order for these tribes to survive, they probably have to have quite a few children. The tribes likely would not accept very much homosexual activity because it doesn't help the bottom line which is survival. It seems to me the evolutionary pressure on them would be to have heterosexual relationships to increase their numbers and what not. Elders might frown upon other activities. Now if everyone is a complete slut and sleeps with men and women all the time then perhaps not. But would every tribe be that way? I tend to think tribes would be conservative and somewhat traditional, if only to their own traditions.

Now in the decadent cities, I am sure this would not be the case. Yet Tuluk was founded by tribals under their war lord or what not. And there would still be plenty of tribal influences in the commoners of the cities.
Well, every city in the game was formed by someone at some time...and the people were tribal before they settled down, so I don't see where that has any bearing on this conversation in the least.

Now, back to the rest of what you said.  So, someone is gay in a tribe.  So what?  They are still expected to procreate.  They do their duty.  In a noble house, people are married for reasons of politics and the like, but also to produce children.  So you're saying that no noble could be gay?  Not true.  They can, but they can still get down with their spouse to produce children.  They just won't enjoy it as much.

Quote from: "Dead Newbie"
its my impression that most tribals societies were heterosexual if not monogamous? That's just my impression as I haven't checked every tribe and tallied a percentage. Maybe I should.
Even if every tribal is heterosexual, would they use 'Homo!' as an insult?  Probably not.  If the tribe is seperate from a society that allows such activities, and then they see it...wouldn't it be more appropriate to use a term more fitting to their perception of it?  Why not point and laugh.  When asked why, reply that those silly people don't understand that you need people of different genders to make babies!  Then walk away laughing your fool head off.

Quote from: "Anonymous"
And I say again, it doesn't say anywhere that -noone- in the world of Zalanthas can have a problem with it.
(snip)
I don't agree with the term used for the insult, not very Zalanthan or creative, but I do think that if they want their pc to be that way it's their choice and people shouldn't be bitching about it.
Well, yes, but it doesn't say anywhere that I can't play a man with a ten foot wang hanging out my pants leg...but that isn't exactly appropriate now, is it?  Also, I want my PC to hate every noble, even though I was raised the son of a servant to Borsail and spent my whole life being bombarded by their propoganda, so I know everything about them and would like the detailed plans to the estate, thanks.

...do you see the problem here?  Just because someone wants to do it, does not mean it is realistic within the setting that is Zalanthas.

Quote from: "Gorobei"
Also, even though you're perfectly allowed to make a PC who hates homosexuals, you're going to have to have a reason.  Just like if you want to make a PC who hates slavery, or a PC who hates linen, it's gotta be included in your background.
I think this is one of the best things said so far.  If you want to deviate from the norms, shouldn't it be part of your character application?  If you want to play someone that hates someone based off something that is a non-issue to everyone else around him, there should be some reason...and if there is, it should be okayed by the staff.  "My character was anally raped by a half-giant while some guy watched, so now she hate all half-giants and men."  "My character was molested by his uncle through all of his childhood and now has an unnatural dislike of any man showing interest in him or other men, scared that it will happen to him or someone else again."  I mean, seriously, be creative, but make sure you know why and the staff does as well, because I sure as hell would consider it bad RP to let real world prejudices into the game without a damn good reason.



Now...on to my individual thoughts on this matter.  As John mentioned, the system was designed, it seems, to have little to no discrimination in the game that could be construed as discrimination from outside the game.  Let's all be prejudiced against something that doesn't exist, so that we don't hurt players feelings.  I think the point some people here are missing is that the players are real people, an no matter how harsh the game is or should be, we should not be cruel to anyone else that plays this game, and bashing sexuality/gender and the like is something that is VERY real in the real world and can be very cruel to the player.  Be as fucking cruel as you want to the character, but don't pull real world ideas and prejudices into the game.
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jhunter

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« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2004, 10:45:13 AM »
I agree with what someone else said earlier.

While my pcs don't have any problem with it, I don't see anything wrong with them having a problem with someone of the same sex coming on to them in a lesser or greater extent.

It is my pc and I'm entitled to roleplay their reaction to such things.

I may have a pc that would politely tell them "no way." I might also have one that would be upset to a greater extreme, threatening their life or possibly killing them.

Without being able to roleplay our reactions to such situations as we see fit for our characters then those of us who are straight are forced into dealing with situations that are uncomfortable to us.

I personally will never play a pc that will be cool with another coming onto them, in no way shape or form do I wish to be involved in any homosexuality IG or RL.

Basically, to each his/her own...but leave me the fuck out of it.

Tamarin

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« Reply #58 on: April 06, 2004, 10:49:13 AM »
If someone says something IC that you don't like, kill their ass!  Or plot to have them killed!  If they continually lose PCs shortly after making a homosexual or other comment that offends you, they may start to take the hint that its a -bad- idea.
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Bestatte

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« Reply #59 on: April 06, 2004, 11:15:56 AM »
See, so many of you think the same - that yes, you can have characters who will react to various situations. But a newbie who has never played, who is told to read the quickstart, will see this and consider that since it's an "official" document, then it must be so:

Quote
This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it.


Bold emphasis mine.

According to the official docs, every one of us who feel our characters should react however our characters should react are wrong. That is what I and many others take issue with, because it is leading new players to inaccurate conclusions.

Tamarin

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« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2004, 11:25:39 AM »
I see what you're saying...that the doc is telling players that they have to act a certain way, even if its technically out of character.  To some degree I agree with you, however, would you tell new players that if they want to play a character who doesn't give a flying fuck about the law that they can just prance around and H&S everything they see, spit on templars, etc?  There is a grey area between the accepted norm and the individualistic emotions and perceptions that characters will chose to play by.

And as a side note, I don't believe I have ever seen a single male homosexual in my entire history of playing this game.  Wtf?
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Anonymous

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« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2004, 11:26:15 AM »
Quote from: "Revised Quick Start document"
This means that the following would not NORMALLY happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it.


Would that put an end to all the complaining about the Quick-Start document?

Tamarin

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« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2004, 11:27:10 AM »
Yes, though I never actually read it.  Only the snippet that was posted on this thread.
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Bestatte

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« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2004, 11:38:16 AM »
It would DEFINITELY resolve the issue about that part of the document CRW, and it was requested in the thread when this doc was first offered for critique.

The other thing that would DEFINITELY resolve the other part of that paragraph would be if it didn't say "homosexuality is common" but instead, that homosexuality is a NON-ISSUE.  Even if there were only 2 homosexual PCs in the entire game, it wouldn't matter, rare, common, or prevalent, because it is a non-issue. It is not something anyone really cares about one way or another -in general.-

These were all things that were requested, when we were asked to discuss the doc before it was made an official document of the game.

Sanvean

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« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2004, 12:34:28 PM »
Quote
Common: Something that is not out of the ordinary. Something that is not noteable. Something that often occurs.


Saying that homosexuality is common is not an attempt to restrict your roleplay and force you to play a gay character. Saying that multiple partners are common is not an attempt to force you to mudsex. Both of these are statements about the cultures of Zalanthas. The shrill and whiny undertone to some of the statements being made is beginning to drown out any meaning to the posts.

While I understand it's easy to deride things as "PC" (a word that originally was not derogative but has since been co-opted by conservatives), this is a fantasy world, and tries to be a genuine fantasy world by avoiding having people import their own belief systems, whether those be sexism, homophobia or religious fervor. Does this mean it's not a harsh and unforgiving world? No. But the struggle to survive outweighs a great many considerations.

If you want to play a character that is afraid or upset by homosexuality, then go for it, if you've got the IC background to back it up. But remember to play it as the uncommon occurence that it is, and not as a matter of fact. As Angela Christine notes, there's plenty of other, more meaningful ways to insult other characters.

And with that, I'm closing this thread down.