Author Topic: "SHUT UP, YOU HOMO."  (Read 6511 times)

Say what?

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"SHUT UP, YOU HOMO."
« on: April 05, 2004, 05:50:31 PM »
Okay, seriously, what's with gay jokes?  I'm playing a rather confrontational character these days, and I've been getting them all the time, whenever I get in an argument with someone.

They aren't even funny in real life, people, and real life is where some have actual prejudice against homosexuals.  On Zalanthas, where it's absent, it's just confusing and weird.

SpyGuy

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"SHUT UP, YOU HOMO."
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2004, 06:39:14 PM »
That's just -terrible- RP, I really hope I never have to see that IC myself.  There are alot of things to insult someone over, calling someone gay or a homo is really a RL prejudice.  I don't care if people prefer not to RP that stuff, I personally don't, but homosexuality does exist and is prevalent in Zalanthas.  Find something else to insult unless your character has an actual reason to be homophobic.
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Petra

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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2004, 06:45:41 PM »
Quote from: "SpyGuy"
homosexuality does exist and is prevalent in Zalanthas.


Prevalent?  Says who?

flurry

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"SHUT UP, YOU HOMO."
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2004, 06:49:41 PM »
Quote from: "Petra"
Prevalent?  Says who?


http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html
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Tamarin

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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2004, 06:52:47 PM »
When we have so many other colorful insults, it just makes me laugh with exhaustion that someone would bother to use one like that.
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Rindan

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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2004, 06:55:47 PM »
Personally, I feel that it depends upon the situation.  If you tell a straight woman she likes to have sex with men, she probably will not take offense.  If you tell a straight man he likes to have sex with men, he probably will take more offense.  The point is not that having sex with men or women is wrong or bad, just that it is counter to what they actually do.  If a big buff mercenary is boasting about all of the large breasted woman he has done, and someone suggests that little boys are more his style, I don't think that is a horrible offense.  

That said, I don't think homosexuality should be an insult in it of itself.  It is just another qualifier to an insult.  For instance, I would be insulted if someone accused me of liking to screw fifteen year old girls.  I do indeed like girls, and when I was fifteen I would have agreed that fifteen year old girls make perfect sense.  However, in the new context of being older it is an insult.  

I suppose my point is that if you are using homosexuality as an insult, I would tend to use it because it is counter to what that person actually wants, not because it is homosexuality in it of itself.  In other words, you could accuse a homosexual man of liking large breasted woman in game and I think that would be just as appropriate of an insult as accusing a heterosexual man of liking the boys with nice tight assess.  It is an insult not because homosexuality of heterosexuality is wrong, but because it is counter to what the person being insulted wants.

Anonymous

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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2004, 07:00:39 PM »
I disagree Rindan.  If something is common as the docs put it, then where is the shame in it?  It would be akin to calling someone who is left-handed a right-hander, which is an argument I've read elsewhere.

Mocking someone only has an effect when the implied behaviour has a negative connotation.

Bestatte

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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2004, 07:14:11 PM »
Quote from: "flurry"
Quote from: "Petra"
Prevalent?  Says who?


http://www.armageddon.org/intro/quickstart.html


If you recall Flurry, there was a LOT of discussion about that, and the vast majority of people who posted in the related thread had serious (and some not-so-serious) issues with that particular paragraph. Here's the paragraph for those who don't wanna read the whole doc to find it:

Quote
* Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad. Homosexuality is common, and not seen as aberrant. Multiple sex partners are common among Zalanthans, particularly in the upper classes. If you intend to roleplay out adult scenes, please make sure you are aware of our consent rules.


First of all, the word "prevalent" is an exaggeration: it means "that which prevails," or, that which triumphs over something else. Homosexuality in Zalanthas does -not- prevail over heterosexuality. Unfortunately this lovely little quick-start -implies- otherwise, much to the chagrin of many of us who tried to get it changed. By specifying homosexuality as being common, but -not- mentioning that heterosexuality is -also- common, you give the newbie reader who has never played this game the impression that Armageddon is a sex game for gay people. In fact, the entire paragraph reeks of mudsex promotion.

Personally, when I talk to people who seem interested in playing Arm, this "quickstart" is the one doc out of the bunch that I warn them NOT to read.

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Just because its common
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2004, 07:44:23 PM »
Just because something is common doesn't mean someone isn't going to call you on it.
Fat people are the norm and yet fat jokes seem to never go out of style. So why not gay jokes. *shrug*

Gorobei

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Re: Just because its common
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2004, 07:48:14 PM »
Quote from: "Dead Newbie"
Just because something is common doesn't mean someone isn't going to call you on it.
Fat people are the norm and yet fat jokes seem to never go out of style. So why not gay jokes. *shrug*


Because fat people are generally less physically able than slender people.  Homosexuals, however, are exactly the same as everyone else, aside from their sexual preference.
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Tamarin

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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2004, 07:48:38 PM »
Not a retort, just a comment.  Do fat people even exist on zalanthas?  Aside from nobles and whatnot.
quote="mansa"]emote pees in your bum[/quote]

Gorobei

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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2004, 07:50:12 PM »
Yes, I've seen several.  PCs and NPCs.
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Anonymous

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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2004, 07:50:45 PM »
Quote
Because fat people are generally less physically able than slender people. Homosexuals, however, are exactly the same as everyone else, aside from their sexual preference.



It sounds like your saying..it's okay to make fun of fat people...but not gay people?

Gorobei

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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2004, 07:54:32 PM »
Quote from: "Anonymous"
Quote
Because fat people are generally less physically able than slender people. Homosexuals, however, are exactly the same as everyone else, aside from their sexual preference.



It sounds like your saying..it's okay to make fun of fat people...but not gay people?


If your character feels like it.  What I'm saying is, if you're going to make fun of someone, make the insult make sense in the context of Zalanthas.
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Anonymous

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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2004, 08:04:20 PM »
People usually insult people that for something that makes them different.

Whether it is fat, skinny, gay, straight or whatever the difference.

I fail to see how because there is a fair number of gay people...that non-gay people wouldn't use it as an insult.

Or gay people on Zalanthas doing the reverse toward straight people.

I'm usually more creative with my insults myself, but if someone wants to do those things...it's their perogative.

I personally don't see anything wrong with -what- you insult someone over...if they take offense to it...then it worked.

SpyGuy

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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2004, 08:18:02 PM »
My problem is if anyone used the term Homo or called a character of mine gay, its just not creative and doesn't make sense in context.

Now if my tough brute dwarf were to tell some guy hitting on a woman at the bar "Go feck a little boy, yer obviously not man enough to satisfy a woman like that" thats more appropriate.  You're insulting their manhood, not homosexuality.  You are implying that having sex with little boys is less of a mans job, but if your character is perfectly straight then I think this might be appropriate.  Its all about creativity and IC appropriateness.

As far as homosexuality being prevalent, I think it is.  At least in the form of bisexuality and the like, probably a significant portion of both genders has had same sex relations at least once.  I also think on such a harsh world that many people might choose not to have children, the main reason people had so many children in the past was lack of birth control and the need for labor.  Cheap labor, slave and otherwise, is easily available to many.  And if you don't want to have kids and there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, why not have sex with someone who you cant get pregnant/get pregnant from?

That being said, the majority of PCs are straight to my knowledge and are perfectly so.  Thats not a problem to me, sometimes we have to let RL prejudices influence the way we make characters and play them.  I'm not going to play a serial rapist, mainly because that would be distasteful ICly for me and probably for everyone else.  Doesn't mean they don't exist in the world.
o I only know how to make long rambling posts, it's a problem I know.  But just be glad I'm not posting all the crap I begin to write before I remember I don't know anything and hit the back button.  Be glad, be very glad.

moab

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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2004, 08:19:46 PM »
Look, the real problem of the insult is that "You homo" is like saying "Open a can of whoop ass."

Say bugger or or something remotely "period" and zalanthan like.
 
If you're going to play like a H&S why not start shotting GRATZ every time your buddy branches a skill.

*boggle*
quote="Hymwen"]
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Anonymous

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« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2004, 08:20:37 PM »
Quote from: "moab"
Look, the real problem of the insult is that "You homo" is like saying "Open a can of whoop ass."


Don't make the Lord Templar Rock lay the smack down on your candy ass, Bynabroni.

Kankman

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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2004, 08:21:03 PM »
The rat-nosed, pimple-faced teenager says to you, in sirihish:
"You're gay!"

The massive-chested hardened mercenary says, in sirihish:
"Yeah.. And if you don't shut up I'll rip your rectum wider than half-giant's mouth!"


As stupid as it is to see someone use homosexuality as an insult in Zalanthas, its equally as stupid to take offense to it. If its not supposed to be an insult, because its a fairly accepted norm, then don't let it insult you.

That said, to whomever uses homosexuality as an insult, IC or OOC:

YOU ARE AN IDIOT.

Anonymous

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"SHUT UP, YOU HOMO."
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2004, 08:31:07 PM »
Elves are the second most common race on Zalanthas...people use it as an insult to non-elves or tribals using a human reference toward city elves.


Elves are common...I guess it's wrong to insult them too huh?

I think the problem is that people are letting their OOC personal feelings get involved because someone IG used sexuality as an insult. I say quit whining and be creative in dealing with it.

I'm certainly not going to get pissed off or call it bad play because a pc who is clearly gay used being straight to insult my pc. I'd accept that as something a Zalanthan might hear, just as I'd accept the opposite.

Lighten up people, play the damned game...and quit bitching about how other people play.

Just because homosexuality isn't too uncommon on Zalanthas...doesn't mean everyone on Zalanthas has to accept it and be cool with it.

moab

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"SHUT UP, YOU HOMO."
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2004, 08:44:22 PM »
Guest>
Insults work only if the behavior is looked down upon.
Even though elves are common, calling a human an elf is a put down because elves are actually thought of as lesser than humans.
 
Calling a man a "bitch" in RL is a put-down because society generally thinks of women as lesser then men (thank god things are <i>slowly</i> changing!).
 
Calling a man a homo in RL is an insult because, in general, homosexuality is thought of lowering a man to the status of a woman.
 
Since both homosexuality and women are not thought of as lesser on Zalanthas is thus doesn't make any sense to call a man (or woman) a homo (was that the actual word used??) or somehow equate a man to a woman with the intention of being insulting.
 
Calling the cry-baby Bynner a "pussy" or a "bitch" wouldn't make any sense. Calling him a baby might (he's acting like a child and not like an adult - an obvious insult in Zalanthan reality), but since men are as tough as women on Zalanthas, the other insults don't apply.
 
It is very clear.  If you can't see it, it's because you don't want to.
 
To address your other statement, that it's being taken too seriously, I disagree.  I once wrote a paper (a good one) in which I used the phrase "pissed-off."  The teach passed the paper but told me that the choice of phrasing lowered the quality of the paper.  

I would argue that such lack of creativity in such insults as we are discussing lowers the quality of the game here - and I think that what those of us who dislike this insult are complaining about.
quote="Hymwen"]
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A pair of free chalton leather boots is here, carrying the newbie.[/quote]

Anonymous

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"SHUT UP, YOU HOMO."
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2004, 08:56:59 PM »
I don't think the roleplaying discussion on the board here is a place for a gay rights discussion.

It says that they are very broad...which means that there can be anyone with any opinion of any of the others.

Nowhere does it say that the attitudes about men and woman and the attitudes about gays and straights are the exact same.

You've decided this and are imposing it on others.

In no way does it say anywhere that one cannot have a straight pc that has a problem with gay pcs.

An insult only has to make sense to the one saying it.

And get a negative reaction out of the one who is the target of this.


Not necessarily that it is a good insult...but in the mind of the one doing it an insult nonetheless.

My only problem with this entire subject...is that you are all saying one cannot have a pc that has a problem with homosexuality.

You might as well say everyone has to be gay or bisexual on Zalanthas.

I wouldn't make one myself, but to each his/her own.


The problem with this to me is that it is more a problem OOC because of something that happened IC, then had to come to the board to bitch about it.

The fact of the matter is...just because you don't like it OOC doesn't mean it's wrong IC for someone to have their pc do.

I'm done with this conversation because everyone is as usual, looking at things in black and white...everything is not black and white...get over it.

John

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Re: Just because its common
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2004, 09:26:19 PM »
Quote from: "Dead Newbie"
Fat people are the norm and yet fat jokes seem to never go out of style. So why not gay jokes. *shrug*
Because for a lot of people in American society, being fat is perceived as bad. In zalanthas being gay is not perceived as being bad.

Quote from: "Guest"
Whether it is fat, skinny, gay, straight or whatever the difference.
I have yet to hear anyone call anyone else straight and mean it as an insult.

Quote from: "Guest"
Elves are the second most common race on Zalanthas...people use it as an insult to non-elves or tribals using a human reference toward city elves.
I have yet to hear a city elf call another city elf "you're such an elf" and mean it as an insult.

moab

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"SHUT UP, YOU HOMO."
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2004, 10:03:12 PM »
Guest, you gotta go back and click on the quick-start link and read the documentation.
Reading can be instructional.  :-)
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Anonymous

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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2004, 10:35:02 PM »
I did...and it still doesn't say that there cannot be a character that has a problem with it.

You show me where is says that specifically.

Bestatte

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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2004, 10:40:12 PM »
Great advice, Moab, except that quickstart was created by a player, and brought to the attention of the player-base by the staff, and a pretty large contingent of the playerbase had issues with that paragraph. Many of us still disagree with it because it imposes one player's interpretation of the genre on everyone else.

As far as I'm concerned, homosexuality is not "common." It is not "prevalent." It is, however, a non-issue and nothing worth discussing one way or another. Further, multiple mates is common, but having multiple mates does NOT equate with promiscuity. Yet, the doc specifies multiple mates without making it clear that some characters might take issue with promiscuity.

In addition, the doc states "This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it. Attitudes towards sexuality are broad."

The entire first part of that is written as a non-negotiable factor - THESE THINGS WOULD NOT HAPPEN, PERIOD. And yet the last sentence says "Attitudes toward sexuality are broad." The two are contrary to each other, because the first part turns "attitudes toward sexuality" into an extremely narrow field. Your character MUST accept homosexuality as "common" and have no problem with it, your character MUST accept multiple mates as common and have no problem with it. Your character MUST not have issues with promiscuity, your character MUST not be a male who feels women should stay at home making babies - which is something only women can do, even on Zalanthas.

That is THE most narrow-minded RP I can think of, and the docs in the quickstart support it. I, however, do not.

John

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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2004, 10:52:10 PM »
Quote from: "Anonymous"
I did...and it still doesn't say that there cannot be a character that has a problem with it.
There can be all sorts of things. Such as a slave that wants to be free. People who want a democracy. That doesn't mean either of those things are common. Unfortunately among the playerbase people acting as if calling someone a homosexual IS common.

Chac

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« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2004, 10:53:52 PM »
If everyone plays a heterosexual monogamous character with white skin and says "I'm doing it because we're allowed to play abberant characters and freaks" then you'll have a mud full of anglosaxon protestant characters and the docs and culture will be meaningless.  You don't have to play a gay character if you're not comfortable with that, but you -can- stop using it as an insult and try to play something that would be more reasonable in the context of the game world.  

As I understand it armageddon isn't about playing heroes and knights, it's about playing people in an alien society and environment.  Some people are going to be exceptions, and obviously more of the exceptional chars will be pcs than npcs, but you still need to try to play characters that make sense in the context of the game world.  There may be some straight people that hate anyone who isn't straight, but everything implies that there'd be nothing to socially rienforce ideas like that and that these people would be a minority.

Anonymous

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« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2004, 11:03:40 PM »
I never once said that those type of people were common, just that one can be one and it doesn't say one cannot.

The main part of this I'm hearing people say is more like...I want Arm to force people to make "Politically Correct" characters and anyone who is not is roleplaying poorly.

I'm not even the sort to make a pc like this or use such an uncreative insult myself...I am the type however, that respects others freedom to make a pc and play that pc how they see fit.

mansa

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« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2004, 11:04:16 PM »
I can play a character that thinks all males are evil and should be killed.  I won't be agreed upon by the majority in a bar, though.

I can still play a character that hates lesbians.  I won't be agreed upon by the majority in a bar, though.

I can play a character who hates people who have magick.  I WILL be agreed upon by the majority in a bar.

There are some rules set aside in the context of the game that not everyone will agree with, but those are the rules set.

Magick IS feared.
Being GAY isn't.

You can make the insults.  That's alright.  You could claim anything that your character considers 'bad'.  But don't expect them to sting at all.  If you said they were READING YOUR MIND, man, that's like the worest thing ever..   DAMN MINDBENDERS!


You could also say that the people who react to the insults are at fault.  They shouldn't be ashamed of what they do.  If you get mad at someone calling your character a 'womanizer', then you believe that what you are doing is wrong.  You should be proud of what you do, as a character.
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Angela Christine

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« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2004, 11:12:06 PM »
If you are at all sensitive, squeemish or have good taste, I suggest moving on to the next message now.  I am going to use a bad word.

This discussion reminds me of an off-color comedy routine I saw a few years ago.  It was about using the word cunt as an insult.  All females got 'em and most are pretty happy about it.  Most guys want access to 'em.  It's like trying to insult someone by calling them a cute fuzzy hamster.  Ok, it might be insulting to use it on a gay guy who neither has one nor wants access to them, but mostly it is nonsensical.  



I think good insults involve calling someone a child, an animal, or an inferior race (inferior being relative, of course).  


Telling someone they fight like a woman wouldn't be an insult because women are as good at fighting as men, but saying they fight like a little girl would be an insult, because that implies that they are weak and unskilled.  A popular mild put-down is to call someone, especially a new recruit, "kid".  "Hey kid, pass that shovel over here."  "Your momma ain't here to clean up after you, so stow that stew bowl yourself."

"Does anybody smell gith?  Oh, wait, it's just that 'rinther."  "You sure that axe isn't too heavy for you?  If it is we could get you one of the light training daggers the halfbreeds use." (Implying that you, a human, is as weak as a half-elf).

Beastiality is usually a good insult, as is pedophilia.  You can't handle a REAL man or woman, so you handle tregils and ten year olds.  Even if it is legal, some people will look down on a 30 year old who is dating an 18 year old, assuing that s/he is not mature enough to deal with an equal relationship and so chooses someone younger that they can manipulate and control.  In Zalanthas a 30 year old dating a 16 or 14 year old (or younger) would be legal, and in some cultures normal, but in other cultures they would think it was odd and indicitive of general juvenile tendencies.  (Note: I'm talking about consentual relationships, not child molesting.  I assume someone raping children would still get his/her ass kicked unless s/he was a noble or Templar.  It isn't altogether unherd of in some cultures for people we would consider children to be considered to be of the age to consent to a sexual relationship or have their parents/guardian consent on their behalf.  Since there is little or no shame and secrecy associated with the relationship, phycological dammage is minimized.)


Homosexuality based insults seem weak to me.


AC
Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with."     Henry S. Haskins

flurry

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"SHUT UP, YOU HOMO."
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2004, 11:30:05 PM »
I hope this doesn't turn into the Bash-the-Quickstart Thread.   We already had one of those, which is probably a better place for those kind of comments.   Regardless of who wrote it, it's been gone over with a fine-toothed comb by a bunch of players, and was edited accordingly, and finally approved by the Immortals.   So I think it holds as much weight as any of the other docs (although with the recognition that it's intended to be a general overview aimed at new players).    (Also FWIW, Bestatte, I don't think it's really fair to say that a "large contingent" of the playerbase had problems with that paragraph.    Some players, who posted on that thread, expressed disagreement with some version of that paragraph.   Some of those issues were addressed with updates to the paragraph, though).

I think "common" and "prevalent" are fine - since either can be used for something that's widespread but not necessarily the majority.  

However - back to the topic - I don't think how common homosexuality is in Zalanthas has much bearing on this particular issue.   The important thing, IMHO, is the fact that homosexuality is not considered wrong or aberrant or inferior.    That doesn't mean it's IMPOSSIBLE to use homosexuality as an insult - but it would just probably seem a rather bizarre thing to insult someone about.  

Take the example CRW mentioned.   Imagine a heated argument in real life, and one person turns red-faced and says "You..left-handed person!"   How would people react to that?   They'd probably stare blank-faced at each other and just laugh at the person who said it.   It would just be a bizarre, and almost surely ineffective, way to try to insult someone.

It does happen sometimes, and it's not necessarily just new players or poor roleplayers.   (I've also seen the same thing with gender-based insults that really don't make much sense in Zalanthas).   I think people just slip or don't necessarily think of what they're saying and whether it fits the gameworld.  Hopefully threads like this can help make people a little bit more aware of stuff like that, until the next time the topic comes up.  And sure as Krath rises every morning, it will :)
"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream." - Shirley Jackson, The Haunting of Hill House

  • Guest
PC
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2004, 11:51:56 PM »
Sometimes it seems almost as if people are trying to make armageddon polically correct in a few strange ways.

We want this to be a harsh environment with rough people. Sure murder, kill, rape and hate everyone for almost every and any reason under the sun. Enslave other races because they are inferior. Torture your enemies because they come from another city state. Destory those who are killing all your game..BUT

Discriminate against women or gays, oh no, that would be poliitically incorrect and will not be tolerated here mister!

Bah.

Chac

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Re: PC
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2004, 12:00:47 AM »
Quote from: "Dead Newbie"
Sometimes it seems almost as if people are trying to make armageddon polically correct in a few strange ways.

We want this to be a harsh environment with rough people. Sure murder, kill, rape and hate everyone for almost every and any reason under the sun. Enslave other races because they are inferior. Torture your enemies because they come from another city state. Destory those who are killing all your game..BUT

Discriminate against women or gays, oh no, that would be poliitically incorrect and will not be tolerated here mister!

Bah.


It's not about being politically correct, it's about playing something other than a kid from some north american suburbs.  The idea is that you're here to roleplay, so roleplay something different for a change. Something that fits into the culture the docs present us maybe.

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Re: PC
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2004, 12:09:43 AM »
Quote from: "Chac"

It's not about being politically correct, it's about playing something other than a kid from some north american suburbs.  The idea is that you're here to roleplay, so roleplay something different for a change. Something that fits into the culture the docs present us maybe.


Well you've jumped to a conclusion and a wrong one. I am not from a suburb. You got north america right. Thats about it. And now you are attacking my Rp because I have an opinion? I don't think I have ever used sexual preference as an insult in the game.

Furthermore. I don't see why the whole game world is so homogenized about their opinions about discrimination against sexual preference and gender. It seems you can discriminate against everything else. Magickally, every one in all the supposedly different cultures and locations in the game from the scruffiest tribals to the wealthiest nobles and templars all have this homogenized opinion. Now THAT's not believable IMHO.  It almost seems there is more leeway in how you feel about Magick.

Chac

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Re: PC
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2004, 12:23:31 AM »
Quote from: "Dead Newbie"


Well you've jumped to a conclusion and a wrong one. I am not from a suburb. You got north america right. Thats about it. And now you are attacking my Rp because I have an opinion? I don't think I have ever used sexual preference as an insult in the game.

Furthermore. I don't see why the whole game world is so homogenized about their opinions about discrimination against sexual preference and gender. It seems you can discriminate against everything else. Magickally, every one in all the supposedly different cultures and locations in the game from the scruffiest tribals to the wealthiest nobles and templars all have this homogenized opinion. Now THAT's not believable IMHO.  It almost seems there is more leeway in how you feel about Magick.


If you want to break it down, they probably designed the mud that way because it can be a very tender spot for some people and they didn't want the basic docs to offend anyone.  I don't know if I necessarily agree with that approach since I'd prioritize building a unique culture, but I'm fairly ambivalent.  But that's probably why it seems universal for everyone throughout the mud, where as culturally hating magickers isn't going to lead to hurt feelings for anyone in real life.

Okay... my point is that you should play a character that doesn't act like he walked out of the suburbs. Not you in particular, I don't know who you've played or who you are so it wasn't a judgement on you or your characters.

I'm stressing that people need to play characters that seem like they fit into armageddon's unique culture and the prevalance of characters that just sling around things like the word 'homo' seem more like throw backs to our own culture than an attempt at truly rping.

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Well here is my theory as to why a bias?
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2004, 12:35:46 AM »
Let's assume that smalller tribes are struggling to survive in this harsh desert world. People in the tribe die all the time to creatures and other tribes.

In order for these tribes to survive, they probably have to have quite a few children. The tribes likely would not accept very much homosexual activity because it doesn't help the bottom line which is survival. It seems to me the evolutionary pressure on them would be to have heterosexual relationships to increase their numbers and what not. Elders might frown upon other activities. Now if everyone is a complete slut and sleeps with men and women all the time then perhaps not. But would every tribe be that way? I tend to think tribes would be conservative and somewhat traditional, if only to their own traditions.

Now in the decadent cities, I am sure this would not be the case. Yet Tuluk was founded by tribals under their war lord or what not. And there would still be plenty of tribal influences in the commoners of the cities.

My point is that I don't see that discrimination because of sexual preference would be uncommon or at least not unknown.

Anonymous

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« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2004, 12:38:37 AM »
Quote
I'm stressing that people need to play characters that seem like they fit into armageddon's unique culture and the prevalance of characters that just sling around things like the word 'homo' seem more like throw backs to our own culture than an attempt at truly rping.


Making things feel like they are Politically Correct does the same thing for me...I have to live with that in the real world.

Chac

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Re: Well here is my theory as to why a bias?
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2004, 12:42:43 AM »
Quote from: "Dead Newbie"
Let's assume that smalller tribes are struggling to survive in this harsh desert world. People in the tribe die all the time to creatures and other tribes.

In order for these tribes to survive, they probably have to have quite a few children. The tribes likely would not accept very much homosexual activity because it doesn't help the bottom line which is survival. It seems to me the evolutionary pressure on them would be to have heterosexual relationships to increase their numbers and what not. Elders might frown upon other activities. Now if everyone is a complete slut and sleeps with men and women all the time then perhaps not. But would every tribe be that way? I tend to think tribes would be conservative and somewhat traditional, if only to their own traditions.

Now in the decadent cities, I am sure this would not be the case. Yet Tuluk was founded by tribals under their war lord or what not. And there would still be plenty of tribal influences in the commoners of the cities.

My point is that I don't see that discrimination because of sexual preference would be uncommon or at least not unknown.


I don't think that argument really holds true. From what I know of tribal societies it isn't uncommon at all for them to be tolerant of homosexuality, and often it's ritualized.  I can understand the argument that procreation would be very much encouraged, but not to the point where heterosexuality is a slur.

I should add that I wouldn't mind seeing homophobia included in a way that was specific to certain tribes as long as it was explained in the docs and made sense culturally.  

I would be a bit concerned that it'd be a bit of a disaster waiting to happen from on an ooc level though, it's a very sensitive spot with some people.

Chac

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« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2004, 12:46:32 AM »
Quote from: "Anonymous"
[
Making things feel like they are Politically Correct does the same thing for me...I have to live with that in the real world.


Read what I said earlier.  
Nobody is asking you to be poltically correct, but it would be nice if people would roleplay the culture outlined in the documents provided by the imms.

Beyond that, if you have a problem with not being able to be a bigot in real life then that's your probelm and I'd really rather not know about it. You can be a bigot all you like in the mud, but do it in a way that makes sense icly.  Insult elves, insult magickers, whatever as long as it makes sense in the world's context.

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Hmmm.
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2004, 12:47:21 AM »
its my impression that most tribals societies were heterosexual if not monogamous? That's just my impression as I haven't checked every tribe and tallied a percentage. Maybe I should.

Chac

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Re: Hmmm.
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2004, 12:53:35 AM »
Quote from: "Dead Newbie"
its my impression that most tribals societies were heterosexual if not monogamous? That's just my impression as I haven't checked every tribe and tallied a percentage. Maybe I should.


Well I can right off hand cite papua new guinea.

They've got a tribe of people there that believed in human spirit energy.  When men ejaculate they lose some of their spirit energy, so sex is highly regulated and they can only do it at certain times under the right conditions.  This could be partially in order to limit procreation as tribes tend to encounter a problem when their population rises since it makes it harder to sustain themselves.   One interesting side effect of this is that it was ritual for young boys to drink the semen of older men, usually an uncle, in order to gain strength and become strong and healthy.

Now that's just one example and it's not sex as we concieve it, they saw nothing erotic abotu the transfer of semen in these ritual settings, but they definately weren't worried about it being 'gay'.

Anonymous

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« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2004, 12:56:07 AM »
Quote
Beyond that, if you have a problem with not being able to be a bigot in real life then that's your probelm and I'd really rather not know about it. You can be a bigot all you like in the mud, but do it in a way that makes sense icly. Insult elves, insult magickers, whatever as long as it makes sense in the world's context.


I resent that...I am not a bigot and I really consider you calling me one a flame, it has no place here.

And I say again, it doesn't say anywhere that -noone- in the world of Zalanthas can have a problem with it.

That is my entire point.

That makes me a bigot because I see no problem with others playing what they want to?

I don't agree with the term used for the insult, not very Zalanthan or creative, but I do think that if they want their pc to be that way it's their choice and people shouldn't be bitching about it.

Chac

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« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2004, 01:36:09 AM »
Hmm... well it might've been a bit flamish of me, but your post about being politically correct -did- imply that it was a burden on you not to use gay as a slur in real life.  

More to the point... the reason people are complaining about that particular insult being used ic is because it doesn't work in the game world.  I mean sure it's great to let people have the freedom to play whatever they want but there are limits to that.  If the mud was all about extreme freedom and not about restricting people to play in the game's context you'd have a bunch of characters that looked like darth vader, legolas or uhh... whoever else kids like these days... Pauly Shore.

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« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2004, 01:47:10 AM »
This is the reason I posted anon.

I knew I was going to receive an attitude like this...

If I'm not with you I'm against you sort of attitude.

I feel that noone is actualy reading and comprehending what I'm saying because of it and now I'm labeled a bigot...complete bullshit.


Like I said I don't agree with the term used, could've been a more Zalanthan way to say it.

I see nothing wrong with someone having a pc who has a problem with gays, just as I see nothing wrong with someone having a pc who has something wrong with straight people.

Or someone having a pc who has a problem with tribals, elves, dwarves, gortoks, kankflies or any other possible thing one can think of to hate.

So long as they do it in a creative way, that can be fit into the world there is nothing wrong with it IMHO.

John

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Re: PC
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2004, 02:30:08 AM »
The following post is IMO.

Quote from: "Dead Newbie"
Discriminate against women or gays, oh no, that would be poliitically incorrect and will not be tolerated here mister!
I wonder what people here would think if people discriminated against blacks. Used blacks as an insult. E.g. You're a stupid ignorant nigger. You deserve to die you piece of black shit. You act like such a nigger.

I wonder what people would be saying if it was common for people to use insults along that vein. I know I personally would be very angry about it. I imagine a lot of people would be angry about it, including some of the people saying "people can make characters that discriminate against gays." I feel I'm safe in making that assumption due to the fact a lot of people get bent out of shape when white people say the n word.

Armageddon is set up so discrimination against homosexuals, females and racism isn't supported within the game. When The staff made the game, they decided these real life issues shouldn't be supported within the game. This doesn't mean it can't happen in the game, it means it shouldn't be common in the game.

This is of course not including exceptions. Such as elven tribes. I don't consider exceptions to be common. Which might be a stupid thing to say, but I wanted to stress, I'm not saying NO-ONE should be allowed to make a homophobic, racist sexist character. I'm saying (IMO) it shouldn't be common. At the moment, calling someone a homosexual as an insult is common. I've seen it myself. I've also seen where people draw attention to other peoples sexual preference and saying "oooh. Check out that chick. Believe it or not she's a lesbian." In Zalanthas I see that the same as saying in real life "ooh. Check out that chick. She has freckles!"

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« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2004, 02:33:39 AM »
I'm with AC on this issue.

You can go ahead and insult homosexuals in Zalanthas, but they'll be really weak insults, in fact I think most people would think your an idiot for trying to use that as an insult.

It'd be on par with calling someone with blue eyes, a blue-eyed freak.  There is no social prejudice against blue-eyed people, so except for the rare weirdos out there who think blue-eyed people are demon spawned....you just get a bunch of confused stares.

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« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2004, 02:44:21 AM »
Odd, I've never heard anyone use sexuality as a derogatory remark toward another in Arm.

Can't be that common.

Gorobei

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« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2004, 02:47:24 AM »
Quote from: "wizturbo"
I'm with AC on this issue.

You can go ahead and insult homosexuals in Zalanthas, but they'll be really weak insults, in fact I think most people would think your an idiot for trying to use that as an insult.

It'd be on par with calling someone with blue eyes, a blue-eyed freak.  There is no social prejudice against blue-eyed people, so except for the rare weirdos out there who think blue-eyed people are demon spawned....you just get a bunch of confused stares.


Also, even though you're perfectly allowed to make a PC who hates homosexuals, you're going to have to have a reason.  Just like if you want to make a PC who hates slavery, or a PC who hates linen, it's gotta be included in your background.
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wizturbo

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« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2004, 02:57:12 AM »
Quote from: "Gorobei"

Also, even though you're perfectly allowed to make a PC who hates homosexuals, you're going to have to have a reason.  Just like if you want to make a PC who hates slavery, or a PC who hates linen, it's gotta be included in your background.



Yup!  There has to be a reason, if your breaking social norms.

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« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2004, 07:09:15 AM »
According to the quickstart Gorobei, you are -not- allowed to have a character like that. Your character -will not- discriminate, -will not- make comments about women being less than men, -will not- have any negative opinion of homosexuality, -will not- feel uncomfortable if promiscuity is shoved in your face.

That's what I take issue with. That this particular "official" doc states, most emphatically, that these things are -not- allowed.

I'll tell ya something: if I have a hetero character, and a homosexual character of the same gender starts hitting on them, my character -will- have a few things to say about it. If that homosexual character wants to have fun, in private, with people of their own gender, that's fine and dandy, I have no problem with it whatsoever, and my character won't have a problem with it either.

When their character starts showing amorous feelings toward my character, however, my character -will- react however I feel they should react to it. Maybe they'll be flattered and say no thanks. Maybe they'll think the idea of getting ass-reamed by another man is disgusting. Maybe they'll get curious and take them up on it. But for the docs to say "thou shalt not" have issues with it is narrowing my options for my character's behavior.

jmordetsky

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« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2004, 09:33:20 AM »
It was prolly a newb. Damn newbs.

Thats why I kill them off before they cause any trouble.

 :lol:
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Petra

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« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2004, 09:36:21 AM »
Quote from: "Bestatte"
First of all, the word "prevalent" is an exaggeration: it means "that which prevails," or, that which triumphs over something else. Homosexuality in Zalanthas does -not- prevail over heterosexuality. Unfortunately this lovely little quick-start -implies- otherwise, much to the chagrin of many of us who tried to get it changed. By specifying homosexuality as being common, but -not- mentioning that heterosexuality is -also- common, you give the newbie reader who has never played this game the impression that Armageddon is a sex game for gay people. In fact, the entire paragraph reeks of mudsex promotion.


That's exactly what I am talking about.  Perhaps I read the word prevalent differently, but to me it suggests that more people than not are gay in Zalanthas.  I think the idea here is to promote acceptance of homosexuality in game, rather than make this one big gay world.  Doubtless homosexuals are still a minority in the game world.

Petra

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« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2004, 09:49:40 AM »
...and just to throw in for the sake of playing Devil's Advocate here...

If homosexuality is widely accepted in Zalanthas and therefore calling someone one could not be construed as an insult, what makes you think pedophilism is?

jmordetsky

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« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2004, 09:57:58 AM »
Petra makes a valid point. I think that if you are going to talk about sexuality on zalanthas you have to take a serious look at how people in ancient non-judeo christian, poweful societies behaved, (rome, mongols, china, japan etc) and then remove sexism against women from the equation.

I think at that point you'll have a better concept of how it would probablly be.

Also, I can only imagine that tastes of nobles would surpass and differ from the commoners.

When I think of the nobles on zalanthas, I think Caligula. When I think of the commoners, I think Deadwood.
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sarahjc

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« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2004, 10:15:17 AM »
OK My two sids on the original post is that I think it's fine for someone to insult the fact that your PC is gay.  But I would not take any offense to the comment, I might even laugh at it, and expect a few people to raise a brow in confusion at the insult as well. Most people in game just don't think like that. I could see jealousy driving a comment of that nature perhaps if you're flavor of the week doesn't fancy you for the opposite sex.. But nothing to insinuate that it's a wrong action..

Maybe a "he doesn't prefer my kind" type of snicker I could see.. But that's about it.

((A SIDE RANT) And I know there is not supposed to be jealousy on Zalanthas but I think that is absurd. Just because you may have multiple partners, does not mean that you aren't jealous when your selected Bo of the current moment is off smoke someone else's pipe. Last I checked, it's not utopia and people still pick and choose whom they want to be with, and that can cause jealousy. Maybe not in the monogamous your mine all mine sense of the word, but perhaps in the competitive sense it must exist)

However that doesn't mean you -can't- hate gays, and that you can't have prejudice, but popular opinion will most likely get you a few confused looks, head shakes, and a general blank expression of misunderstanding. The guidelines are just guidelines.. not rules. Hell you could also walk around saying, "I speak to Tek every day at sunrise.. and he says that I have a glorious penis.." But you may be killed for it.

It would be like making fun of someone who drinks plain milk instead of chocolate milk. I mean yeah, chocolate milk may be the popular favorite, but no-one will bat an eye at your enjoyment of plain milk. The insult would have a laughable to non-existent impact.

My current PC flirts with male and female PC's alike.. She may have a preference to one or the other. But is openly flirtatious with both.. Why not? It's just the way things are.. I would say that if you are approached with that kind of insult that you should IC's show the other PC just how wrong that sort of immature and uncharacteristic notion is.. I would expect other players who may happen to be there to assist in such. Then if they choose to the pursue the notion.. then they are doing it IC. Maybe the PC is just a general nutcase.

But from what it seems like, it’s just an inexperienced player. It's like those guys in bars that fluff their chests and try to Eyeball other guys after too many beers to cause a fight.. Saying things like "What you look'n at!" then followed by a huffy "Fag!"

It has no place here.. Grow up.. and read the docs.. But that's just MHO.

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spawnloser

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Re: Well here is my theory as to why a bias?
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2004, 10:30:47 AM »
Quote from: "Dead Newbie"
In order for these tribes to survive, they probably have to have quite a few children. The tribes likely would not accept very much homosexual activity because it doesn't help the bottom line which is survival. It seems to me the evolutionary pressure on them would be to have heterosexual relationships to increase their numbers and what not. Elders might frown upon other activities. Now if everyone is a complete slut and sleeps with men and women all the time then perhaps not. But would every tribe be that way? I tend to think tribes would be conservative and somewhat traditional, if only to their own traditions.

Now in the decadent cities, I am sure this would not be the case. Yet Tuluk was founded by tribals under their war lord or what not. And there would still be plenty of tribal influences in the commoners of the cities.
Well, every city in the game was formed by someone at some time...and the people were tribal before they settled down, so I don't see where that has any bearing on this conversation in the least.

Now, back to the rest of what you said.  So, someone is gay in a tribe.  So what?  They are still expected to procreate.  They do their duty.  In a noble house, people are married for reasons of politics and the like, but also to produce children.  So you're saying that no noble could be gay?  Not true.  They can, but they can still get down with their spouse to produce children.  They just won't enjoy it as much.

Quote from: "Dead Newbie"
its my impression that most tribals societies were heterosexual if not monogamous? That's just my impression as I haven't checked every tribe and tallied a percentage. Maybe I should.
Even if every tribal is heterosexual, would they use 'Homo!' as an insult?  Probably not.  If the tribe is seperate from a society that allows such activities, and then they see it...wouldn't it be more appropriate to use a term more fitting to their perception of it?  Why not point and laugh.  When asked why, reply that those silly people don't understand that you need people of different genders to make babies!  Then walk away laughing your fool head off.

Quote from: "Anonymous"
And I say again, it doesn't say anywhere that -noone- in the world of Zalanthas can have a problem with it.
(snip)
I don't agree with the term used for the insult, not very Zalanthan or creative, but I do think that if they want their pc to be that way it's their choice and people shouldn't be bitching about it.
Well, yes, but it doesn't say anywhere that I can't play a man with a ten foot wang hanging out my pants leg...but that isn't exactly appropriate now, is it?  Also, I want my PC to hate every noble, even though I was raised the son of a servant to Borsail and spent my whole life being bombarded by their propoganda, so I know everything about them and would like the detailed plans to the estate, thanks.

...do you see the problem here?  Just because someone wants to do it, does not mean it is realistic within the setting that is Zalanthas.

Quote from: "Gorobei"
Also, even though you're perfectly allowed to make a PC who hates homosexuals, you're going to have to have a reason.  Just like if you want to make a PC who hates slavery, or a PC who hates linen, it's gotta be included in your background.
I think this is one of the best things said so far.  If you want to deviate from the norms, shouldn't it be part of your character application?  If you want to play someone that hates someone based off something that is a non-issue to everyone else around him, there should be some reason...and if there is, it should be okayed by the staff.  "My character was anally raped by a half-giant while some guy watched, so now she hate all half-giants and men."  "My character was molested by his uncle through all of his childhood and now has an unnatural dislike of any man showing interest in him or other men, scared that it will happen to him or someone else again."  I mean, seriously, be creative, but make sure you know why and the staff does as well, because I sure as hell would consider it bad RP to let real world prejudices into the game without a damn good reason.



Now...on to my individual thoughts on this matter.  As John mentioned, the system was designed, it seems, to have little to no discrimination in the game that could be construed as discrimination from outside the game.  Let's all be prejudiced against something that doesn't exist, so that we don't hurt players feelings.  I think the point some people here are missing is that the players are real people, an no matter how harsh the game is or should be, we should not be cruel to anyone else that plays this game, and bashing sexuality/gender and the like is something that is VERY real in the real world and can be very cruel to the player.  Be as fucking cruel as you want to the character, but don't pull real world ideas and prejudices into the game.
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jhunter

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« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2004, 10:45:13 AM »
I agree with what someone else said earlier.

While my pcs don't have any problem with it, I don't see anything wrong with them having a problem with someone of the same sex coming on to them in a lesser or greater extent.

It is my pc and I'm entitled to roleplay their reaction to such things.

I may have a pc that would politely tell them "no way." I might also have one that would be upset to a greater extreme, threatening their life or possibly killing them.

Without being able to roleplay our reactions to such situations as we see fit for our characters then those of us who are straight are forced into dealing with situations that are uncomfortable to us.

I personally will never play a pc that will be cool with another coming onto them, in no way shape or form do I wish to be involved in any homosexuality IG or RL.

Basically, to each his/her own...but leave me the fuck out of it.

Tamarin

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« Reply #58 on: April 06, 2004, 10:49:13 AM »
If someone says something IC that you don't like, kill their ass!  Or plot to have them killed!  If they continually lose PCs shortly after making a homosexual or other comment that offends you, they may start to take the hint that its a -bad- idea.
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Bestatte

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« Reply #59 on: April 06, 2004, 11:15:56 AM »
See, so many of you think the same - that yes, you can have characters who will react to various situations. But a newbie who has never played, who is told to read the quickstart, will see this and consider that since it's an "official" document, then it must be so:

Quote
This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it.


Bold emphasis mine.

According to the official docs, every one of us who feel our characters should react however our characters should react are wrong. That is what I and many others take issue with, because it is leading new players to inaccurate conclusions.

Tamarin

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« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2004, 11:25:39 AM »
I see what you're saying...that the doc is telling players that they have to act a certain way, even if its technically out of character.  To some degree I agree with you, however, would you tell new players that if they want to play a character who doesn't give a flying fuck about the law that they can just prance around and H&S everything they see, spit on templars, etc?  There is a grey area between the accepted norm and the individualistic emotions and perceptions that characters will chose to play by.

And as a side note, I don't believe I have ever seen a single male homosexual in my entire history of playing this game.  Wtf?
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Anonymous

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« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2004, 11:26:15 AM »
Quote from: "Revised Quick Start document"
This means that the following would not NORMALLY happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it.


Would that put an end to all the complaining about the Quick-Start document?

Tamarin

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« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2004, 11:27:10 AM »
Yes, though I never actually read it.  Only the snippet that was posted on this thread.
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Bestatte

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« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2004, 11:38:16 AM »
It would DEFINITELY resolve the issue about that part of the document CRW, and it was requested in the thread when this doc was first offered for critique.

The other thing that would DEFINITELY resolve the other part of that paragraph would be if it didn't say "homosexuality is common" but instead, that homosexuality is a NON-ISSUE.  Even if there were only 2 homosexual PCs in the entire game, it wouldn't matter, rare, common, or prevalent, because it is a non-issue. It is not something anyone really cares about one way or another -in general.-

These were all things that were requested, when we were asked to discuss the doc before it was made an official document of the game.

Sanvean

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« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2004, 12:34:28 PM »
Quote
Common: Something that is not out of the ordinary. Something that is not noteable. Something that often occurs.


Saying that homosexuality is common is not an attempt to restrict your roleplay and force you to play a gay character. Saying that multiple partners are common is not an attempt to force you to mudsex. Both of these are statements about the cultures of Zalanthas. The shrill and whiny undertone to some of the statements being made is beginning to drown out any meaning to the posts.

While I understand it's easy to deride things as "PC" (a word that originally was not derogative but has since been co-opted by conservatives), this is a fantasy world, and tries to be a genuine fantasy world by avoiding having people import their own belief systems, whether those be sexism, homophobia or religious fervor. Does this mean it's not a harsh and unforgiving world? No. But the struggle to survive outweighs a great many considerations.

If you want to play a character that is afraid or upset by homosexuality, then go for it, if you've got the IC background to back it up. But remember to play it as the uncommon occurence that it is, and not as a matter of fact. As Angela Christine notes, there's plenty of other, more meaningful ways to insult other characters.

And with that, I'm closing this thread down.