Author Topic: Thieves and being able to steal  (Read 3160 times)

creeper386

  • Posts: 2583
Thieves and being able to steal
« on: November 05, 2002, 07:52:17 PM »
After a run in on stuff from my old MUD(A theft that was completely unrealistic but happened anyways because the item was in my inventory no matter the RP) As well as someone I'm trying to get into the MUD might possibly have had 1000+ 'sid stolen from them... That'd I'd suggest thieves being a karma class...

Now since I don't really completely like the Karma thing even though it's a good idea... I won't suggest that...

But I think ANYONE who plays a thief should think HARD before EVER using the steal command... OOC things like not stealing from a newbie even though their character has a few thousand sid and it'd be IC for you to do it should be taken into account... Other things like... Taken in some RP before stealing...

Getting a feel for the enviroment that is going on... Sure they just removed that really expensive ring and its in their inventory... But have they placed it on a table? Or are they still holding onto it in their hand?

Sure if they don't bother RPing with it for awhile I'd assume OOCily that they must have set it down someplace or at least aren't paying much attention to it ICily...

There is just ALOT of OOC responsibility that a thief has not to abuse their power... Running a MAJOR thief on another MUD thieves have ALOT of power just starting off at the begining... Now... Sure alot of the actions a thief does aren't seen... But you should still RP things...

Thieves get the OOC brunt of alot of things... Thats why you have to play them smart... RP what you do... Even if noone sees it... And also take the OOC responsiblities to make sure you know whats going on before you use the steal command...

And also be considerate... There are alot of people that you can steal from that isn't wearing the newbie clothing... Thats the good thing about having newbie clothing... It may not be IC to NOT steal from them, but is it IC for a commoner to run around with a 1000 or more 'sid?

Steal smart... Steal smart... And don't get caught... I'm all for having thieves... but have to be smart when you play one... ICily and OOCily

Creeper
21sters Unite!

Swordsman

  • Posts: 174
My take
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2002, 08:22:43 PM »
Well, I really don't agree with making thieves karma guilds. I think we've got a nice balance of basic (non-karma) guilds and races at the moment. I also think the imms must do a pretty good job of taking care of idiots who spam-steal or whatever, because otherwise we'd see a lot more things being stolen and a lot more complaints here. But that's all just IMO.

Stealing from newbies ... if you're talking about people purposely hanging out between Meleth's Circle and the Main Bazaar waiting for people in newbie clothes to come along, I find that distasteful myself. I know that some people in the past used to pose as newbies in order to get lots of help from recruiters, which I think is also OOCly distasteful, but that's just me. Anyway, it's going to be up to each person to decide what they think is OOCly honest play. It's not just thieves, it could be any fighter ... do you kill someone or not? If I OOCly knew or guessed someone was a newbie and it was borderline whether I ICly would kill them or not, I'd try not to. If they were still in newbie clothing, I'd probably just ignore them if they did something really stupid (and let the militia handle them, hehe). But if they crossed that borderline, they're dead as far as I'm concerned. You can only stretch IC reality so far to allow for OOC newbieness. Going back to stealing, if I saw a newbie in newbie clothing in the main part of Allanak, I'd just ignore them. If they were in the 'rinth, it'd be borderline. If they were in the 'rinth and shouting out "Hello! Anyone there? I have all these coins and they won't fit in my trousers!" then I'd steal at least something from them (no, not the trousers).  :wink:  Well, you get what I mean.

All just IMO.

Swordsman

creeper386

  • Posts: 2583
Thieves and being able to steal
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2002, 08:49:43 PM »
I'm not talking about JUST stealing from newbies, that was an example and if it did happen it's going to make it really hard for my friend who JUST started playing MUDs let alone Armageddon... but I just found out they do have the coins... But I'm sure there have been complete newbies not knowing to put the coins away someplace... And then have them stolen as they are trying to figure out what they are doing.

Nor am I talking about spam stealing and such... I'm talking about being OOCily responsible when stealing. Don't just walk into a room... See things in inventories and steal... Figure out whats going on first... Perhaps something might be in someones inventory but they are cleaning it up getting ready to craft it... Are you going to steal from them? It'd be certainly poor to do so... But if you just walk in say... Oh theres a nifty mek hide... I'm going to steal it... Take it and walk out... The next emote the person has dealing with that ... it's just gone when they've been cleaning it and everything.

I'm talking about people thinking when they steal... And there is a good reason to have thieves being a Karma class... Karma is there to keep powerful/difficult guilds/races out of newer players hands... And over all a pickpocket is probably the most powerful class that is currently non karma... But like I said I don't much like the karma thing and love thieves so don't think it should go that far...

Creeper
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John

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Thieves and being able to steal
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2002, 08:55:25 PM »
I agree with Swordsman, he summed everything up pretty well IMO. I don't think making thieves (which is a fairly stock class in most MUDS) require Karma is a good idea. And the only way to get better at being a thief is to play a thief. I think the best idea is to have documentation that is easily accessible (which has been suggested on thread another). Inform thieves of what's right and what's wrong. I don't think newbie thieves have a lot of power because it is very hard to successfully steal, due to the fact that you can't steal much at first, so you need to train it up, which is very hard to do for newbies.

Quote from: "creeper"
But I think ANYONE who plays a thief should think HARD before EVER using the steal command
Couldn't agree more. I had a thief try to steal from me within a minute of entering the Gaj for the very first time. I know a thief tried to steal from me because I got the "you feel a hand in your pocket" echo, and there was only one person in the room. Now I wouldn't of ICly assumed it was him but the elf snuck away so I kinda had too. Was it him? Possibly, or it might of been another elf in the room who had successfully hidden and the two were scamming me (making me chase after the wrong elf). I didn't go chase him because it could of been a VNPC, but he was number 1 on my list.

But what if the elf had of been successful and I didn't see him? What if I had of been a complete newbie to have all my money stolen within 1minute, I'd think this place was a H&S mud for one, which isn't a good thing.

I don't think leaving people in newbie clothing completely alone (in respect to stealing and killing) is a good thing. I think creeper's advice is better. Watch them for a bit and then decide whether to leave them alone or not. If they're obviously a newbie then be nice on them, if they're emoting their ass off and all sorts then they're probably someone just wearing newbie clothing. IMO there's nothing wrong with staying in your newbie clothing, that money isn't there JUST for buying clothing.

the halfling

  • Posts: 90
Thieves and being able to steal
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2002, 08:57:24 PM »
This is the never ending battle of thieves are all twinks.  Not saying that you are saying this creepie, but this is a topic that will never go away.

I haven't ever played a real pickpocket for a long period of time yet, I sure plan on doing it some time.  

I agree that stealing from newbies is bad.  And I do agree that it is bad form to steal from someone if they remove an item but are emoting that they are like showing it to people.

At the same time, most veteran players know how to make themselves "steal proof."  Closing and opening things almost right after they get what they want.  Having closeable containers all throughout their character.  Not ever carrying anything that is worth stealing to begin with.
Sure some of these have IC reasons for doing them..

But
Pickpockets aren't suppose to be rich.  It should be rather difficult to get your opening, and that good swipe.  

Also you have to remeber something about thieves, when they get found out to be someone who steals, their character will most likely die soon.  Being a well known pickpocket isn't long lived role, I don't think.
Yes being a pickpocket you can do somewhat neat stuff right from the beginning, but only smart ones last long.


The problem goes both ways though.
You got thieves stealing whatever no matter what is going on just cause the code supports it.
And you got so and so, gets robbed and screams thief at the only standing character in the room.(If it's an elf or a rinther I can kind of agree with it though ;)


I'll agree with you creepie that pickpockets are a good guild, but you play one that lasts along time without getting arrested and killed.  There is no Byn for stealing.  Pickpockets without Sap are annoying yes, but not this deadly force taking over.
 don't eat everyone.

Quirk

  • Posts: 754
Play a pickpocket
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2002, 09:55:29 AM »
Seriously. This is a never-ending debate, usually brought on by the failure of one or both sides
to see the other's point of view. You'll have to play a thief to understand the other side.

Pickpockets actually suck quite badly in many ways; most players with an ounce of sense or
knowledge of the game won't walk round with much in their inventories, which makes it hard
to get a big, successful theft. The players who lack sense or knowledge of the game are usually
easily scammed without having to use the coded steal command in any case. I'd actually suggest
myself that pickpockets could use an extra skill or two just to make them viable. That, or
remove the echo to the victim on minor steal failures.

But let's imagine you are playing a pickpocket. You *could* emote everything out. Walk up to
someone, peer over their shoulder, try to steal. Get a minor failure, "you feel a hand in your
belongings" echoed to the victim and blam! the victim will instantly accuse the pickpocket of
trying to steal from them, spread word to everyone they know and the character is almost as
good as ruined from that point on; a known thief, watched everywhere. You *could* steal with
no emotes at all. That's sort of twinkish, but the sad truth is that players aren't going to give a
suspected thief a break, and will find a way to launder the OOC suspicion that a character is a
thief (because they were the only other PC in the room, damn it! and he just emoted passing my
table!) into IC reasoning. Given that the stakes are higher for the thief, who risks reputation
and livelihood, than for the victim, who might lose a dagger he liked or a few sid or a piece of
food, I find it as hard to condemn as to condone emoteless theft.

I'd agree wholeheartedly with the suggestion that the would-be thief should be aware of what
the intended victim is up to, and that it's twinky to steal things which according to the emoted
environment are being worked on by a crafter, or being passed back and forth and examined.
But pickpockets have a hard life living from theft as things are, and claiming that pickpockets
should be a karma class just because someone lost a thousand sid or so to one is on a level with
claiming that warriors should be a karma class because one killed you and (presumably) looted
your corpse.

Quirk
I am God's advocate with the Devil; he, however, is the Spirit of Gravity. How could I be enemy to divine dancing?

Bestatte

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Thieves and being able to steal
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2002, 10:10:52 AM »
My thoughts on the assorted points:

1) First of all, thieves are not just pickpockets...and further, some thieves don't pick pockets at all. You don't have to steal from someone's inventory to be considered a thief. Just take a look at the latest elections in the States! <g>

2) Acting out a pickpocketing, in my opinion, is, well, not a bright idea. A thief is going to make himself as unobtrusive and invisible as possible, even in a crowd. The whole point to a successful attempt is that NO ONE SEES YOU DO IT.

3) From the victim's point of view..if there are a bunch of people (PCs and NPCs alike) SITTING at tables in a bar..and you are standing by the doorway (via your emote when you walk in), and an elf emotes that he's moving from the doorway to the next room, and you suddenly feel someone's hands in your pockets, then chances are, that's the thief. Reason being, no one else (visible) just happened to be in that location at the same time your pockets were picked. It seems perfectly reasonable to me, to assume it was that particular person who did it, EVEN THOUGH it's also possible that someone in hiding did it.

4) There -are- other skills for thieves that make them viable. Stealing is a single skill. I would imagine there aren't *any* characters in the game who come with only one skill.

creeper386

  • Posts: 2583
Thieves and being able to steal
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2002, 11:30:41 AM »
Role playing is playing a role... It doesn't mean you have to emote everything... And in order to steal you don't have to always be hiding and be not seen and such...

Example of this is my thief on another MUD... He is one of the well known characters there, he's also a very known thief, but everyone knows him as being a pretty nice guy... But some people also keep a watch on him... I have something like 300+ hours on this character... On this mud there are 50 levels... he's like 26 I beleive... his skills aren't high for the most part... but do to being a very lucky bastard and skilled with his hands he is well known and still could pull off any theft... I've maybe used the steal command no more then... 20-30 times...

Most the time I've stolen from people... Is when they are focused on something else... Some orc is in the city... He's paying attention to the city guards and such so he doesn't get thrown out... He's acctually looking for my character but does't know it... my character ends up running into him(Anyone knows running into an orc isn't a good idea specially for a thief) but hey... He had that big purse hanging off his belt... quickly lost it... I completely emoted every thing out... Was quite awhile before he noticed his coins gone... Sure he was pretty sure it was me who did it... But I was long gone...

It's quite possible to play many roles of theft... And on Armageddon... Even if your suspected as a thief if there is solid proof... Like someone acctually SAW you or your caught with the stolen goods... More often then not the people in charge are going to think the person who's accusing you has other motives involved... Everyone knows that everyone else is always trying to get more, or to gain a better status so on and so forth... In order to do that they tend to screw others over...

But anyways... I'm talking about the responsibility OOC that comes with playing a pick pocket or any other thief, in ANY game. It's hardly an easy job and very rarely is something that you just walk into a room hide, steal some things and leave... ICily as well as OOCily you have to know WHAT is going on... Even to the point of watching people... Know their habits... Play of them... Heck... The one pick pocket I've played on Arm, screwed up stealing... He ended up helping in the search for that damn thief!

There is a big difference between not being seen stealing and staying out of the spot light... Then just using the coded hide skill... Heck... Most the stealing I see in Armageddon... If I was a thief in the game watching it I'd just laugh about all the clueless people that don't know what they are doing. It isn't hard to use the code to steal... But it's using your brain when doing it. If you're smart enough... The most that well probably happen is people well suspect you and if you're not careful kill you off in a back alley...

I just don't know... Seems alot of people are really childish when stealing... Not saying EVERYONE is... But most the time... A good thief would go a few weeks learning how everything works before even trying to loot something... As I said before... You have to learn peoples habits... It's the same IRL... Pick pockets IRL don't just wake up one day and say... I'm going to go pick pockets... They tend to be people that have always watch people... They know the stupid things people do... The way people act and think to situations... They prey on those people that act consistently... They tend to keep watch on their "mark" for at least awhile to see if they make for a good one....

Sure alot of experienced players keep good watch on their things... I know if I was living in Zalanthas... I'd be damn careful too... You can't trust anyone... And for the most part... That's the only difficulty thieves in the game have... Rather it's pick pockets or what have you... But as with IRL in the game the characters can't always remember everything... People don't let their characters make mistakes often but they do make mistakes... And so well the people playing at the keyboard...

But just because people that are new to the game are "easy to scam" doesn't mean people do it alot... Anyone can scam the new person into giving them their coins... Doesn't have to be coded theft... But people tend not to do that... And thieves shouldn't steal from them... Most new people are quite easy to spot anyways if you are taken the time and playing your role... Rather it's a con artist, a thief... Some guy that kills people in back alleys... What have you...

This is getting to be a really long post... But it isnt' just thieves that should take their time to get to know whats going on before doing something... In Zalanthas being varily careful should be the norm... Even being cautious you can die at the drop of a hat... Who would rush into things?

Creeper

I'm done with this... May be a long boring post... May not run in any consistant fashion... People may not like it... But it needs to be said.
21sters Unite!

Swordsman

  • Posts: 174
Thoughts
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2002, 10:04:36 PM »
Creeper386: well, really, what you're saying is for people playing thieves to read something like the Thief Bible (under the RP page, I think) and try to stick to it. I think most people who stay here a while will do stuff like this anyway. People who don't will quickly get a reputation as a twink with the imms, I'm guessing, heh.

John: maybe it wasn't clear, when I said 'ignore' I meant that I wouldn't go out of my way to kill/steal from someone in newbie clothing, not that I'd totally ignore them and not talk to them. But I said this because I was thinking that Creeper386 was talking about thieves purposely picking on people in newbie clothing, which it turns out he was just using as one example, kind of. Anyway, IMO it's not good form to stay in newbie clothing (unless you're a real newbie to the game and don't know where to get IC clothing) because everyone knows it's newbie clothing and it just takes away from the game. IMO.

I guess what Creeper386 is talking about with thieves would be like someone just going down the street in Allanak taking a stab at people (if you didn't automatically get crimmed for it) ... i.e., with no real IC thought behind it. In the time that I've played here though, only twice has something really stupid happened with my characters and thieves. Both times (one time I'm sure, the other time, I'm not so sure), people my character was talking to stole weapons off of my character's belt ... and both of them were while I was sitting at a table, go figure ... I think I'd kind of notice you leaning right down to me and reaching to my belt while you're talking to me, but hey ...  :roll:  But apart from that, I can't really think of any other times I was stolen from that I'd consider twinkish. Just my experience FWIW.

Swordsman

Callisto

  • Posts: 895
Thieves and being able to steal
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2002, 11:09:36 PM »
Theft only becomes a problem when theres no one around to give them a reason to be careful. Remember how horrible theft was when Allanak had no PC templars or soldiers? Thieves were possibly at the highest level I've seen in the whole of my years playing Armageddon. Well, thieves and everyones favorate role, the berserker killers who maim NPCs for 'M4d l00t'.

When you suddenly throw in the templars and soldiers, jail is no longer just idle time and an OOC annoyance - jail becomes a very serious IC threat to the continued breathing of each and every thief out there. Yes, I'm aware thieves should ICly fear jail even if there were no PC soldiers and templars, but the fact is people just aren't inclined to play that out to any realistic degree because they know damn well no one is going to show up and throw them in the arena.

If you've noticed, Allanak now has PC templars and soldiers to capture and punish thieves, and highly skilled thieves are now rare again, simply because all the stupid ones were caught off-guard by suddenly having to deal with more then just dumb NPCs and idle jail time.

The bottom line there is, it isn't a matter of needing karma limitations on the pickpocket class. When there is an even balance of nobles, soldiers, thieves, servants, and assorted handfuls of unaffiliated commoners, things tend to take care of themselves.

In terms of how much you should role play a theft? Thats really a judgement call. I'm of the opinion you should role play everything out, but I've seen a lot of thieves get some serious screw-over jobs by people who figure out someone is a thief class.

I'd say my favorate types of situations are the ones that run something like this:

Commoner: "That tall, lanky elf with the dark hooded cloak just tried to steal from me!"

Templar/Soldier: "How do you know?"

Commoner: "I felt his hand in my pocket."

Templar/Soldier: "How do you know it was his hand?"

Commoner: "He was the only one in the Gaj..."

Templar/Soldier: "The only one in the Gaj? you're saying you two were the only people in the Gaj?"

Commoner: "Well no, there was the regulars too."

Templar/Soldier: "Right... how many 'regulars?'"

Commoner: "Six Bynners who are always there."

Templar/Soldier: "So there was only six Bynners, you, and an elf in the Gaj.. how do you know one of the Byn didn't do it?"

Commoner: "Because they never move."

Templar/Soldier (thinking): "I think this ones insane.. may have to throw her in the arena, just to be sure."

Templar/Soldier: ".... alright.... so the elf was tall and lanky, in a dark cloak, who was the only.. uh.. moving elf in the entire Gaj last night, whos hand you felt, but didn't see, in your pocket, who may or may not have been attempting to steal from you?"

Commoner: "Yes, thats right. Are you going to arrest him?"

Templar/Soldier: "Suuuuuure, I'll get right on that. Really."

Templar/Soldier (thinking): "Oh dear Tek this woman is nuts."


This person might as well have just OOC'ed "he was the only other PC in the room" and saved everyone a whole lot of trouble, because that is exactly what they were looking to do ICly, no doubt hoping to pray on the OOC fact most players would rather have a PC die then get stolen from.

This WAS a very real conversation that happened in game, just changed enough to ensure the ICness of it is protected. I also added in the thinks on my own, because I'm witty like that.

This is the kind of nonsense thief PCs deal with on a regular basis, and I've seen this sort of thing happen many a time and I can completely understand them not wanting to emote how they go about stealing, just because the odds are -so- stacked against them on the OOC level.

Frankly, I feel a little sorry for them since apparently some people will forgive each other for attempted murder and sleeping with their husbands and wives, but when someone is caught stealing, the gloves come off because... the thief stole their sword, stole their dagger, stole their half eaten kalan fruit, and now its time for a blood bath of VENGEANCE!  :roll:
quote="Teleri"]I would highly reccomend some Russian mail-order bride thing.  I've looked it over, and it seems good.[/quote]

Bestatte

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Thieves and being able to steal
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2002, 11:42:13 PM »
On the other hand..in a world where elves are "all thieves" and everyone else is only suspect...

If there's only one elf in the Gaj, and he's the only one with his hood up, and the PC emotes that she's standing in the doorway, and the elf emotes that he moves from the doorway toward the east room RIGHT AFTER the PC feels her pockets being touched, and the two other PCs in the building are sitting at the bar, and the NPCs are all at tables..then it makes completely and perfectly good sense to me for her to suspect that specific elf of being the thief, and ask for someone to look into it.

creeper386

  • Posts: 2583
Thieves and being able to steal
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2002, 11:46:33 PM »
Yeah... Long post to say thieves should really play smartly...

ICilly I could see ANY elf getting accused of theft... No matter where he was... And even if it's possible it was someone else... The elves that were around are still also suspects.


Creeper
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the halfling

  • Posts: 90
Re: Play a pickpocket
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2002, 06:18:58 AM »
Quote from: "Quirk"

But let's imagine you are playing a pickpocket. You *could* emote everything out. Walk up to
someone, peer over their shoulder, try to steal. Get a minor failure, "you feel a hand in your
belongings" echoed to the victim and blam! the victim will instantly accuse the pickpocket of
trying to steal from them, spread word to everyone they know and the character is almost as
good as ruined from that point on; a known thief, watched everywhere.

I agree with quirko.

Simply cause just look at the outcome of the two sides.

Pickpocket who steals with RP not really making sense that they could.
* You lose an item, yes it sucks, sometimes it is really expensive.  But it is "just" an item.  Your character is still alive, and he might be mad, he probably down a bit of 'sid.  But almost all things stolen can eventually be replaced.  Yes sometimes you might lose an item that isn't replaceable or was Lord Fancypant's ring you were suppose to deliever.  But usually it isn't.

Pickpocket gets pointed out by bad RP.
* The character is most likely now going to be avoided by everyone.  They are in many cases very ruined.  Now this is something that all thieves should be ready for, since eventually all thieves get caught.  But to have your character reach this by bad rp.  It would totally suck.

But I still agree with you Creepie.  I think that pickpockets should becareful on how they use steal.  But I think it's more damaging when someone abuses the code to point out a pickpocket.

Though pickpockets are a smaller group then telling players to not point out thieves by bad rp..  And people seem to take so much offense to being stolen, even more then being killed sometimes.  So I don't know, it's a topic that will never go away.
 don't eat everyone.

witchman

  • Posts: 206
Thieves and being able to steal
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2002, 12:59:28 PM »
Quote from: "Bestatte"
On the other hand..in a world where elves are "all thieves" and everyone else is only suspect...

If there's only one elf in the Gaj, and he's the only one with his hood up, and the PC emotes that she's standing in the doorway, and the elf emotes that he moves from the doorway toward the east room RIGHT AFTER the PC feels her pockets being touched, and the two other PCs in the building are sitting at the bar, and the NPCs are all at tables..then it makes completely and perfectly good sense to me for her to suspect that specific elf of being the thief, and ask for someone to look into it.


I have to disagree completely.  You are forgetting VNPCS.  It's assumed that many more people than just the visible NPCs and PCs are in any particular populated room in a city.
 
In the situation above, why could it not be one of the six other elves that are also likely in the room.  This is, IMO, poor role play. :x
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Thieves and being able to steal
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2002, 07:14:41 PM »
I dunno about those VNPCs, as far as the Gaj, it's assumed, since it is in indoor place in a semi-respectable part of the city, that most people have their hoods down, because it's simply unneccesary. And hell, having your hood up would make it harder for you to spot thieves, find people who are calling to you, drink, etc.

In summation, I think it's safe to say an elf with a hood up would stick out, quite a bit. Yes, even a VNPC elf, but since there's no note made of hooded elves in the room description, they're probably not noticable.