Siege Weapons

[spawnloser]

I don't think anyone here has been debating Templar magick...that is the magick given to the Templars by their God-King.  Of course that will inspire.

I think the debate is really over the devil-spawn elementalists (of all shapes, sizes and flavors) as well as sorcerers...and even in the South, they are still feared.  They are slightly better understood and they are tolerated...but I could still see random lynchings of gemmed magickers when someone's baby gets sick, because obviously, the magickers did it.  Shit like that should still happen in the South, and noone really knows what those demon-bred horrors are capable of...even if the players are, the characters are not.

[Stroker]

Gemmed magickers are gemmed and public for the following reasons:

a) To be kept under control by the templarate.
b) To be used when needed.

Since (a) is self explanatory I will explain (b) - From obvious accounts of players on the GDB and from my own personal, extensive experience, I can agree that they are indeed used. Otherwise templars wouldn't tell them to practice their magick nor would they be allowed to do so. Why the fuck do you think they're allowed to practice? For the sheer joy of it?

[Rindan]

I am hard pressed to see how this is even being debated.  In every single major military action Allanak has performed, magikers were used.  Not just templars, full blooded gemmed magikers.  I can't think of a single exception.  If there is a war and Allanak is involved, then so are gemmed.  Gemmed are an integral part of ANY Allanaki military operation.  In fact, I image one of the reasons why gemmed are kept around and in such relatively hospitable conditions is simply due to their utility, especially in war.  You can't argue against this, it is just a simple fact.  Allanak uses magikers and uses them liberally during war.  I imagine most in the Allanaki military would know this and I know all Tuluk would know this and chalk it up to another atrocity committed by the 'nakkies.

Now, should the average commoner like the fact that there is a magiker slinging spells next to him?  I imagine most commoners would have mixed feelings in times of war.  On one hand, they have a natural hate/fear towards magik.  On the other hand, that magik is being used on the enemy, and in war people tend to value survival above all else.  Sure, your magikers might make your troops shake a little extra, but the swath of destruction that just a few well trained elementalist can wreak is well worth a few jitters.  You sure as hell can bet that whatever terror your magikers are causing on your own troops is ten times worse for the receiving troops.  I imagine magikers are a very effective psychological weapon against enemy troops.  It might make your troops jittery, but it might make the enemy troops flat out panic and run.

People are making it sound like siege warfare (magikers or no) is common.  It isn't common.  No one is going to become accustom to magikers because they are used in battle.  Even the longest lived soldiers will see one, maybe two wars in their entire life time.  Allanak is not going to resort to using magikers out in the open on the streets to whack pick pockets, but if they are intending to blast down some walls or conduct any sort of major operation, you better believe they are going to bring a contingent of magikers along.  The policy makes perfect sense and sure as hell beats lugging around some less then terrifying but prohibitively expensive hunks of wood to build siege weapons wherever you go.

[Angela Christine]

I think the image of magickers as war weapons might be similar to the status of chemical weapons like mustard gas, napalm, clorine gas, etc.  Nobody thinks these weapons are a good idea, including many of the people creating them and ordering their use.  The damage they cause is awful and disturbing, so no one wants to occupy an area recently cleared by chemical weapons.  There is also a terrible risk, or percieved risk, of these weapons escaping containment, going out of control, and destroying your own people.  People don't like you if you use these weapons.  40 years later they will still remember how awful the destruction was.  You've seen the picture of the little vietnamese girl running down the road naked after being exposed to chemical weapons, right?  Soldiers don't feel proud of battles won using these things.  And yet, people do use them.

Magickers are like that.  Nobody is really happy about them, but some states still use them.  You don't feel warm and fuzzy about using them.  Between battles it is unsettling to think of them in storage in the temples, just lying there waiting to go off.  But they are undeniably useful, and Tek plays to win.

AC

Do things like catapaults or ballistas exist in Zalanthas?

No, they do not.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Things like that exist.

Sorry.

[Gilvar]

The closest equivalent would be a half-giant with a sling. Or in the case of balista, give it a spear.

[Mr.Camel]

... Or a heavily armored dwarf.

[spawnloser]

... Or a heavily armored dwarf.

As in to give the heavily armored dwarf to the half-giant?  I can see that.  :twisted:

[jhunter]

A heavily armored dwarf flies in from the west.

The wiry, wide-eyed cadet is struck with a heavily armored dwarf!

Blood splatters all over you!

The wiry, wide-eyed cadet crumples to the ground.

lo w

near
[nothing]
far
[nothing]
very far
The hulking, hare-lipped half-giant stands here.

think Oh shit!

[X-D]

Thats the heavy artillary.

I prefer the machine gun style.

A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north striking the short cadet in the head.
A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north striking the short cadet in the neck.
The short cadet crumbles to the ground
A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north.
A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north.

A spear clutching painted halfling gets to her feet.
A spear clutching painted halfling gets to her feet.

l N
near
[nothing]
far
[nothing]
very far
A grinning one-eyed half-giant stands here aiming a spear clutching painted halfling south.

Think WTF?

A spear clutching painted halfling stabs you hard on the foot!
A spear clutching painted halfling stabs you on the arm!

A heavily armored dwarf groans and gets to his feet.
A heavily armored dwarf scrambles to his feet.

A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north striking you in the leg!
A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north and hits your shield!
A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north.
A spear clutching painted halfling flies in from the north.
A heavily armored dwarf flies in from the east striking you in the head!
You land on your back!

Think Shit!

Beep!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

LMFAO.

[YellowCactus]

------------------------------------------------------------------------
While arrows are flying around....and stray kanks are romping all over the place....with half-giants flinging people around.....and mantises ripping people apart...and big assed meks stomping on people....um....no.

War code would take "Way" too many beloved coders away from building the game!  I'd be overjoyed if the Imms would set up room 'affects' like the new additions to the Allanaki Markets and Tuluki streets.  They'd have to know which sections of the world the fighting would go down in....but some chaotic battle affects would be enough for me.
Yc

[Uglyhead]

I dunno. I always thought that a particularly strong Half-Giant, armed with an oversized sling and a suitably large stone could probably do considerable damage, perhaps even approaching catapult-esque damage, and at a fraction of the cost.

[karpuz]

Oh... Great Muk! Please add the halfling thingie! It rocks!

[Tarx04]

And if kanks could fly, I could see a projectile attack waiting to happen.

[amish overlord]

I had a character that was an inventor/alchemist. He drew up designs for a catapult and a balista. He also had invented a rat trap as well. He never got around to building his catapult or balista, but he had one drawn up ICly and his own code(hehehehe templars never arrested me for symbols on my drawings, secret writing i only knew) Now this wasn't actually coded writing just things my character made up.

Amish overlord  

[jmordetsky]

*long post alert*

I was thinking about war code the other day, and how it could be done without rewriting the combat code.

I witnessed once a while ago, an NPC who's short desc was "A unit of *GroupName* troops."

I was thinking with the right combat, movement and  associated emotes and a good ldescs this could be fairly cool.

****A unit of Borsail Wyverns arrives from the east, marching in quite unison.
****A unit of Borsail Wyverns stands here in tight formation.

In combat replace all the viscously strikes your head, wounds your neck stuff with the appropriate keywords

****A unit of Borsail Wyverns makes a solid assault against the flank of a unit of Byn Mercenaries

****A unit of Byn Mercenaries fends off an assault from a unit of Borsail Wyverns


Now, some trouble arises when little old me and you, a single human, tries to take on a "Unit" NPC. This obviously should not happen. There should be a flag or something preventing this saying "Attacking a unit of Borsail Wyverns would be suicide" and if you continued well....see ya. On the contrary, a unit could easily maul a single PC and should have combat stats to reflect such.

Now, this brings me to siege weapons. These could be similar, in that the NPC titles would be "A Wyvern manned siege catapult." Or something of that nature.

Of course the "Siege Weapon Unit NPC" would have lower melee scores (hit points etc) to reflect less close combat oriented troops then a standard unit NPC.  

However, what these things could do, is throw big things really far. Which is (correct me if I'm wrong) just increasing the damage of the item it's throwing...?

Maybe instead of an rock doing 1-6 hp of damage it does 20-500 points of damn making it suitable for an attack on another Unit NPC.

You could then increase the throw rocks weight so that only something with the strength of the unit NPC could pick one up.

This wouldn't allow for the descruction of walls and villages, but it would allow for fields of unit NPCs to start fighting one another in close combat and siege weapon npcs to fling rocks at each other.

Lots of details to fill in here, but I think the theory is sound.

Thoughts?

[jhunter]

I like this, its sounds good to me...use something similar to those units just set up to use a powerful ranged attack instead.

A Tuluki ballista crew is here, loading a ballista.

Stuff like that...sounds cool.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

JM, this is a good idea. There is just one exception. While I am not certian just how many people a Zalanthian Unit consists of, I would not say, with complete certainity, that one or two uber-PCs could not take one on. Lets say, a master swordsman, layered in armor, or, a maxxed half-giant warrior in silt-horror armor.

The latter is probably close to the most dangerous thing on the face of the Known World. Although there will be arguments about how many NPCs a single PC of any race should be able to take on, I personally like the 'high-fantasy' of a single warrior of uber-porportions being able to carve his or her way through opponents.

On the whole, however, I certianly am for the change in unit battle messages, and the introduction of the catapalt machines you suggest.

[jhunter]

Yeah, I think that a few exceptional types such as Venomz suggested might be able to do such things...more easily in melee with the crews designed for ranged attacks than with the infantry units, and only the most exceptional combat-oriented pcs being able to do it at all.

Maybe add a crew commander for such things, coded in separately that has scripting to order the crews to fire, when, what direction, and at what target.
Then there is the possibility of taking out the crew commander, causing chaos with the crews of such things and rendering them useless...cutting off the head of the snake so to speak.

[jmordetsky]

JM, this is a good idea. There is just one exception. While I am not certian just how many people a Zalanthian Unit consists of, I would not say, with complete certainity, that one or two uber-PCs could not take one on. Lets say, a master swordsman, layered in armor, or, a maxxed half-giant warrior in silt-horror armor.

The latter is probably close to the most dangerous thing on the face of the Known World. Although there will be arguments about how many NPCs a single PC of any race should be able to take on, I personally like the 'high-fantasy' of a single warrior of uber-porportions being able to carve his or her way through opponents.

On the whole, however, I certianly am for the change in unit battle messages, and the introduction of the catapalt machines you suggest.

Agreed, I think it really depends on how many people are in the unit...10, definately, 20 still, 50 maybe, 100 we're pushing it, thousands...no way.

For the non-ballista/catapult type units I was picturing them in the thousands. That could be my own perceptions, and unrealistic. Either way I see your point.

Maybe it comes down to unit npc just having very high stats and skills the more soliders, the more ++.

From this point of view "a small unit of Borsail Wyverns" may be bested by a feral half giant with the 300 pound battleaxe. But the same giant might be swarmed by a "a huge unit of Borsail Wyverns"

This is a beit more flexible, good point.

[jmordetsky]

Yeah, I think that a few exceptional types such as Venomz suggested might be able to do such things...more easily in melee with the crews designed for ranged attacks than with the infantry units, and only the most exceptional combat-oriented pcs being able to do it at all.

Maybe add a crew commander for such things, coded in separately that has scripting to order the crews to fire, when, what direction, and at what target.
Then there is the possibility of taking out the crew commander, causing chaos with the crews of such things and rendering them useless...cutting off the head of the snake so to speak.

Or even a PC. If the unit is like the PC guards that exist and responds to the (order?) command.

[jhunter]

jhunter wrote:
Yeah, I think that a few exceptional types such as Venomz suggested might be able to do such things...more easily in melee with the crews designed for ranged attacks than with the infantry units, and only the most exceptional combat-oriented pcs being able to do it at all.

Maybe add a crew commander for such things, coded in separately that has scripting to order the crews to fire, when, what direction, and at what target.
Then there is the possibility of taking out the crew commander, causing chaos with the crews of such things and rendering them useless...cutting off the head of the snake so to speak.


Or even a PC. If the unit is like the PC guards that exist and responds to the (order?) command.

Yep, that could be interesting as well. Could assign different pc leaders charge of different units and crews and such, good stuff.

[Anarchy]

*points to below message*