Author Topic: The Allanak Problem  (Read 12362 times)

triste

  • Posts: 554
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #475 on: October 14, 2020, 05:19:52 PM »
Quote
They're supposed to go out of their way to find reasons to leave yours alive?  This is, again, the push towards...-my- story.  -Mine-.  Not the narrative of the game as described or structured.  Not the zalanthan epic.

I fully understand what you are saying here. And in many regards you are right. I guess my concern is how we are supposed to manage the fact that some players are often--if not always--on the losing end. I guess I am wondering how to feel when I see players quit with the complaint that they cannot have a lasting impact on the game world, because I know they ARE good roleplayers and COULD have a lasting impact but are being denied the chance to just due to luck, or the certain kind of characters they play.

The best advice I got when I complained about always playing characters that get tossed to the bottom of the pecking order was, "Play a concept you don't usually play -- even those you despise." And I have tried this, but the feeling of masquerading with privilege is just something I... don't like to play. I grew up poor and mixed race, and surprise I love playing 'rinthers, half-elves, and other sketchy types with glass ceilings inches above their head. I just can't stomach the other side of the fence, so I keep playing the game of "You have a 1/10 chance of being a viable rogue/criminal type, a 1/10 chance of having an epic worthwhile death, a 2/10 chance of some random ass death, and a 6/10 chance of dying in a jail cell." Yes, those odds fit the setting. But I just wish, wish, wish the probabilities for "epic worthwhile death" and "killed in a locked room," death were inverted or tweaked a little bit. I'm a masochist and I can take it, but I know for a fact people in the same "always at the bottom of the pecking order" boat as me have given up.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6268
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #476 on: October 14, 2020, 05:42:57 PM »
It's really hard for me to explain these things without sounding super critical and accusatory and inflammatory.  To anyone reading this who thinks I'm totally bashing the way you play Arm, please recognize I'm not.  It's a lot less of 'change what you're doing' and a lot more 'accept these things in this world'.  If you do the latter, I think there's a natural incorporation of it into interactions that allows for the player-to-player collaboration on the top level, tempered by the player-attachment motivations, sunk down into the character-to-character emotional/survival complex.

I think there are a lot of shitty deaths in the game.  I think there are a lot of shitty deaths in Zalanthas.  I don't think we play the special ones so much that it can be erased without removing key elements of the character life.  If we find code solutions to these sort of situations, I'll analyze them the same as anything else and hope that it provides more capacity for enjoyment.  But in most cases...dying in a locked room is not so much different than running out of movement one room too early to escape an aggressive npc in the wild.  It's a misstep that cost you something.  A moment of 'dammit, I should have just stayed put'.  The difference is that we expect the player to act differently than the rest of the world, because they should care about us, their fellow player.  And that kind of agreement when pushed too far really does remove a lot of things from the game on the character-driven-event level.

I don't even believe these 'high narrative' components that I keep referring to as main street are absolutely absent from the game.  I think we've just hit a point that the dissatisfaction with parts of them bled into dissatisfaction with the game as a whole for having it there, instead of recognizing the struggle, the let down, the harshness of it actually be the game.  Like it feels like we're trying to -beat- the harshness and come out on the other side in a nice, stable place.  And there -are- a lot of staff-down changes that got made that I fully hate, but man, this game was seriously the -best- at my actions providing my own content in completely unforeseen ways when I was playing, precisely because of how willing other people were to go straight at me with a malicious vengeance that would make horror movies envious.  It's what made playing cunning, honorless elves so fun.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

triste

  • Posts: 554
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #477 on: October 14, 2020, 05:59:39 PM »
Quote
The difference is that we expect the player to act differently than the rest of the world, because they should care about us, their fellow player.

I want to clarify that this is not what I am asking for. I am asking for a remedy to what many people have identified as "a lack of trust," and "siloing." This thread is about how Allanak has gone quiet. It therefore doesn't seem prudent to argue in favor of quiet death in locked rooms. At least a public execution allows your old foes to throw rotten petoch at you and lets your friends bite back tears as they watch. I agree with all your points besides quiet deaths in back rooms because we want the city to stop being quiet, and am glad you can concede new code mechanisms are at least worth considering. Again CodeMaster and others have offered great ideas, and I have seen great ideas over the years. I am also thankful for all the nifty code staff have written to provide options, but for years players have wanted more consideration given to how crime/politics often play out.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Night Queen

  • Posts: 14
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #478 on: October 14, 2020, 06:08:53 PM »
what might be interesting as an experiment is to open Tuluk or some other similar place (with less old lore baggage maybe) but with:

- no interaction in or outside it with the rest of the game world, blocked completely in every way

- no special characters or roles, everyone has the same options - it'd be especially good for newer players because there wouldn't be the feeling of not really having much chance against the higher powered roles and I think often they don't seem to have particularly interesting RP ("belch hur hur cast order order cast") and be very focused on game mechanics and fighting

(it could also make it a nice place for a change so people don't have to be thrown into the same plots and characters again for a while)



Also:
Seriously, make it less wishy-washy on the website and have a rule that RP is required, make things more interesting:
It seems like there's two prongs that need different solutions, 1. The people that say they aren't able to trust - which can lead to doing things that actually makes it worse for everyone (above) - get rid of the encouragement of contacting other players from the forums and bring chat back to the site 2. The rules page doesn't mention killing explicitly but instead it's left as a grey area
Quote
Roleplaying is a requirement on Armageddon MUD. This involves assuming the role of a character of your creation, and acting the way your character would
- I've seen mentions before on the forum that it's frowned upon for people to kill for little justification and that staff will step in, but even having seen it talked about it before I can't think of what to put in the search to find those posts again, let alone someone that hasn't read about it before, and no way to search easily through staff posts :)

Maybe some of these crappy situations maybe could've been better if people had been more forewarned? Maybe something like this, brainstorm something better, or against having something like this? From some of the comments in this thread:
Quote from: example that is NOT on armageddon.org/help/view/Rules
2. If your character is going to attempt to kill another character, roleplay that is not combat alone and a reasonable story justification is expected that is supported by your character's background or past history, whether it be through some level of roleplay with the other character (preferred, this creates a more interesting story for other players, you might also want to think how you would prefer to be treated on the receiving end) or use of the in-character "think" or "feel" commands.
At the moment also there's no mention of think, feel, or biographies in the Intro page for new players on the website, no mention in the Character section or Roleplaying page too

Kyviantre

  • Posts: 631
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #479 on: October 14, 2020, 06:51:36 PM »
At least a public execution allows your old foes to throw rotten petoch at you and lets your friends bite back tears as they watch.

I don't remember half of my character deaths.  Or heck, even most of them.  Of the five I do remember...one was locked in jail and murdered (there was RP, but no escape and no warning and it sucked), second was locked in jail and murdered (there was RP, it was dramatic, I saw it coming, I knew ripples would come from it, the reason why it happened sucked because it was blatantly OOCly motivated, but the death itself was satisfying after the fact), third I died when my internet went kaput one room after leaving a gate (that sucked, and I am still salty about it!), fourth was back in a locked room, did not see it coming at all (hidden foe, blindsided, which was fine, I expected to die, but the timing was all over the place, and it was 'more naff than I expected it to be', for want of a better wording), and fifthly, I got my ass dragged to the Nursery and tossed in (which sucked, but it involved betrayal, backstabbing, and the right response, there was RP going on, and that method of dying allowed for both spectacle and making peace with it).  Not in any order what-so-ever.

I don't remember anything else.  But my point is...death in locked rooms is pretty sucky, and suck even more when it is just two of you (having witnesses that can be 'affected by' it).  Deaths via public execution are far more fun...there is time for saying last goodbyes via Way, hopes for rescue, other people get involved and have their stories changed by it.  That is all RP, even if you're a trigger point that is no longer involved...which takes some sting out of losing a character.

So...witnesses and the feeling like your death has ripples, are, what to me, makes for a good death.  Which the Arena/Nursery/etc helps bolster.  Heck, I'd like bind code so you, Templar Awesome, could tie-up your nasty little criminal rinth-rat, grab some AoD and Bynners, and go toss them somewhere near a monster outside the gates, and let them get eaten.  Enhance story for those that aren't dying...helps with the sting of those that do die....at least from my perspective.
Previous of note: Kyviantre, Kaevya the blind Tor Scorpion, Kaloraynai 'Raynai' the beetle Ruk, Kaona, Korenyire of SLK, Koal 'Kick' the hooved Whiran, Kocadici/Dici/Glimmer the Guilder/Kadian, Koefaxine the giant Oashi 'Aide'
Current: Like I'd tell you..

RavingTregils

  • Posts: 9
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #480 on: October 15, 2020, 10:25:57 AM »
As far as apartments go - turn on crimcode for fighting/murder. Neighbors should be calling the guards over noisy murders/sparring/crafting. Especially if there are plenty of guards on the street outside.

Truth be told, I've disliked Allanak for longer than some of you have been alive.
My last attempt there: had a grebber char not long out of chargen, he was ordered by one of those uniformed PCs to go clean out the stables.
I'm at my keyboard thinking - What in the flying fuck. I'm the only PC around. Is that supposed to be fun?

Some games I don't like - Monopoly is one. I don't play it. Won't play it. Nobody can make me play it. I'm also one of the biggest "don't give a shit what YOU do" people you will meet. So enjoy whatever makes you happy. Me do chores for busywork? Hell no.

If you enjoy RPing cleaning out a toilet then more power to you. I own a house. I cook. I clean toilets. I even make my own soap.
RPing chores just makes me think of all the useful things I could be doing with my time.

The biggest value Tuluk had over Allanak was you didn't have to hate fellow inked citizens. You could go in the Sanctuary
and talk to a noble, templar, aide, breed, elf, anyone and not be made to feel like you were a bad RPer for not following the docs.
Hell, your grebber could loosely associate with a house (forget what they called it), maybe even rise to a noble (before they got rid of the grey hunt).

There was a girl/woman, a long lived PC, the daughter of the baker in Tuluk. I enjoyed every time we interacted (multiple PCs of mine) even though we weren't close. Last time I saw that PC was in Morins before she went to join Kurac (if I'm remembering correctly). I would not play that kind of PC but she represented what I enjoy out of the game - a temporary creative writing partner. I am not a fiction writer, I have other skills. She was a good writer, made me up my emote game whenever we talked, and I sent Kudos. Contrast that to someone who gives you an order to do a chore and walks away.

When the coronavirus lockdown happened last spring, I had more free time than I can remember and there's a lot of interesting
stuff going on outside Allanak so the game isn't a total loss without Tuluk. Just wish I hadn't wasted so much time figuring out these newfangled classes and finding those IC plots. But the IC/OOC problem is another opinion and I've hit my quota on internet opinions for this month. It's not like I have time to play much anymore anyways.

Cordon

  • Posts: 62
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #481 on: October 15, 2020, 11:43:38 AM »
 There are a few things that I let hinder my experience to Arm, one that I relate to.. Had my house robbed.. any kinda elfin pick or the thought of a thief use to draw from my immersion.. Took work to find ways around it..  if I was in your shoes with a fresh char, I would of probably just grabbed a fist sized ball of dung and hurled it at the back of his head.. even if I had to run to get em'..  Getting use to/finding ways to drop life stresses /something I am burned out on is something that Arm helped me have and that helps me let stress go even when I am not playing..

triste

  • Posts: 554
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #482 on: October 15, 2020, 12:10:09 PM »
First, sorry for all my replies, and that a lot of them are mostly +1s. I do wish the forum had a "like this post" feature or something sometimes.

Quote from: Cordon
Getting use to/finding ways to drop life stresses /something I am burned out on is something that Arm helped me have and that helps me let stress go even when I am not playing..

Word, immersive RP an hobbies like this rock for that!

Quote from: RavingTregils
The biggest value Tuluk had over Allanak was you didn't have to hate fellow inked citizens.

This, for sure, as well. I have mentioned this a few times over the GDB and discord and I fully agree. It just allowed for more roleplay across classes.

Quote from: RavingTregils
Contrast that to someone who gives you an order to do a chore and walks away.

Riiiight? But for better or worse, that is "good" Allanaki roleplay. Armaddict and others would say that is by design that highborns and Templars need to be derisive of commoners and walk away. They are roleplaying well by the docs. This position is correct, but is it the most playable or fun? Not necessarily all of the time.

I didn't play in Tuluk all of the time, I played there maybe 1 out of every 4 characters IIRC. But it was a nice change of pace. Nightqueen's idea is might be a way we can try to restore some of that dynamic if we want to. We've all said it a hundred times but the contrast and juxtaposition of Tuluk actually made Allanak feel grittier in a lot of ways. It's also been said a hundred times that Allanaki politics has experienced "Tuluki-fication" recently -- that is nobles are more concerned with crumpets and courtesans more than conquests outside of the city. I wonder that it at all has to do with Tuluk -- a clear foil or adversary to Allanak -- being removed.

Huge class divide roleplay can be fun, as Armaddict beautifully advocated. I like the class divide roleplay, but a lot of people are not in the mood for that all of the time, and I totally respect RavingTregils for their stance and straight up hating Allanak. Shockingly, letting people like RavingTregils play Krath-damned northerners actually made things more fun for people who liked to be a gritty Allanaki 100% of the time, northerners make great shooting practice. Win win! But more seriously, different, large political systems allowed them to be greatly different by contrast, and it also had Luir's caught right in the middle of the tension in a compelling way. Tuluk was a great foil, and relief, from class divide roleplay that also allowed Allanak roleplay to be more gritty, more in the darksun-apocalyptic-Armageddon theme.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6268
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #483 on: October 15, 2020, 01:29:22 PM »
Quote
Riiiight? But for better or worse, that is "good" Allanaki roleplay. Armaddict and others would say that is by design that highborns and Templars need to be derisive of commoners and walk away. They are roleplaying well by the docs. This position is correct, but is it the most playable or fun? Not necessarily all of the time.

This is rather short-sighted, to be honest.  Break it down to that single event, and there's basically a few choices.
1)  I am loyal, a true believer, and this is what I have been asked to do.  For the highlord!  (Generally speaking, this is why these personalities are -boring-.)
2)  Shit.  Better get to it because of this fucker.  (Wariness in the future ensues, lack of true loyalty grows, self-edification motivation grows, circle of 'possible interactions' expands due to lower dredges of society and anti-loyalists becoming more understandable)
3)  I'm gonna fight this guy,  (You probably die, or you escape and join a whole circle of people who would totally fight that guy) or bolt.  (You have established a grudge, complete with a full on antagonist who is going to take your life away because you are not a stablehand).
4) Start to do it.  Mutter, groan, think about it, then sneak off.  The beauty of this is that if they find out, it means that they, too, were doing boring shit to make sure you did it, and they're going to break this habit fast.  In positions of power, the -last- thing you want to do is doom yourself to the same experience.  If they don't do it, you're again, part of the anti-loyalist crowd.  You have a 'new nemesis', reasonable interest in going against that person, and plenty of reasons to plot.

Then there's the converse side, where the scene might suck.  But then at the end of it, or in the midst of it, that templar/noble/uniform shows up, and is impressed, and reveal that this was all a test or something that was helpful to them.  You get swept up in -their- life now, effectively experiencing the opposite of all those things above.

Again, these sorts of actions getting broken down to 'but I didn't want to at that moment' is totally depriving you of richer, deeper experiences that provide -their own content- after that.  After this event, you literally have a new goal or opportunity to watch for -every time you log in- until your character gets over it or gets their smug return.

ETA:  Clarifying, I'm not saying, they're acting this way, that is documentation, so it is good.  I'm saying the entire world is based on these kind of relationships and interactions, and drifting away from it is actually -removing your content- AND theirs.  These build enemies, allies, frenemies, they give you things to work towards and away from every time you log in.  These build very rich interactions in a cutthroat world where you, too, are supposed to be cutthroat in your own little ways.  Be oppressed until your character breaks and lets loose, or secretly get training to fight against not the city-state, but -that particular fucker-.  Decide while shoveling shit to volunteer for more menial tasks to establish trust so that you can betray that person in the best ways your character has access to.

These sorts of interactions are present.  That doesn't mean they're always absolutely enjoyable, and it's why I made sure to say 'as much as you can manage' in my earlier post.  It isn't that this is all supposed to be hunky dory, because things can get frustrating with power structures and you trying to wedge your way into them in various ways.  Everyone, as a player, has a certain level that they just want to say 'fuck this'.  I wasn't saying break away from that entirely.  But I am saying try to get the perspective enough that you can -manage- more, and you will increase your content level in the game.  1 hour of roleplay I wasn't really into, giving me 10 solid days of playtime of goal-oriented, directed plotting is a damn good return on an hour.

EDITED TO ADD AGAIN!:
Also...this is why templar and noble roles can be so difficult.  Please be patient.  There is a rock and a hard place where they are simultaneously playing the power structure on a shallow level...but also trying to make it into a thing that provides 'things to do' and enriching the character through experience rather than through planned background or planned future.  Let go of that control as much as you can manage to.  Once the character is in the game, it isn't your character.  It now belongs to Zalanthas.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 01:41:06 PM by Armaddict »
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

triste

  • Posts: 554
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #484 on: October 15, 2020, 02:02:20 PM »
Another great post, and this is why I was agreeing with you in my prior post. I was being brief and succinct in agreeing with you in all these points: Allanak has a lot of roleplay centered around a heavy class divide. Yes, I know if you sweep the dung, you can get higher honors.

What you might not be seeing in our arguments is that players do not want to engage with that heavy class divide roleplay all the time.

Both RavingTregils (the person I was saying "Riiiight" to in the quote above) and I mentioned not having a lot of play times these days. I currently live in a country with a heavy class divide dealing with a plague and it's a shit-show. Maybe when I log into a game I want variety and not the same script. Like RavingTregils, I may not want to spend the 30 minutes I have to play that day sweeping dung.

Again, I want to emphasize. I agree with you Armaddict. I see a lot of the nuance in the class RP and said I liked it, I was just being succinct! Please see our points as well about needing variety and reprieve.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6268
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #485 on: October 15, 2020, 02:12:57 PM »
Heh, sorry Triste, I didn't mean that to lash out directly as much as seize the opportunity to provide an example given...well...the example.  It really, truly disheartens me to see those kind of things ruining things for people, because so much explosive potential comes out of them.

A few years back, one of the last characters I played here, was a city-elf named Nobody.  He actually wasn't named Nobody at the beginning.  I actually had all sorts of completely different plans for him.  One night I was playing, keeping to myself, and people came in and asked for his name.  He wouldn't give it.  They got malicious about it.  They tried to demean him.  They called him a Nobody.  He took on the label, introducing himself as that in front of them just to get under their skin.  They got fed up that he wouldn't join their crew and he was acting this way.  They ended up starting to hunt him down.  There was a bounty on him in that crew.  There were people actively looking for him.  Nobody decided that he was getting hemmed in by a bigger group filled with people who fought more with him...how could he survive.  BAM!  That -entire character- changed in less than 3 real life days based off of people pushing down on him.  He built an entire new support structure from himself since they had theirs.  He set all of his efforts towards 'well, how -can- I fuck them over?'.  He found commonality with enemies of his enemy.

He ended up living for 90 days.  He was defined at chargen the way I wanted him to be.  Zalanthas made him into something entirely different at about the 5 days of playing time mark.  It ended up being one of my favorite characters of all time...because I did -not- get pushed away by this thing that really kind of irritated me (this is all because I wouldn't give my -name-?).

More than actually preaching, I'm kind of trying to inspire here, for those who quickly fall underfoot in those situations.  I know that there are some things that -seem- to be far less than ideal and make you want to just 'bleh' at the game.  Roll with it the best you can.  It's not 100%, but these are often really surprising fonts of content that throw the whole game into overdrive.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

triste

  • Posts: 554
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #486 on: October 15, 2020, 03:02:35 PM »
Heh, sorry Triste, I didn't mean that to lash out directly as much as seize the opportunity to provide an example given...well...the example.  It really, truly disheartens me to see those kind of things ruining things for people, because so much explosive potential comes out of them.

A few years back, one of the last characters I played here, was a city-elf named Nobody.  He actually wasn't named Nobody at the beginning.  I actually had all sorts of completely different plans for him.  One night I was playing, keeping to myself, and people came in and asked for his name.  He wouldn't give it.  They got malicious about it.  They tried to demean him.  They called him a Nobody.  He took on the label, introducing himself as that in front of them just to get under their skin.  They got fed up that he wouldn't join their crew and he was acting this way.  They ended up starting to hunt him down.  There was a bounty on him in that crew.  There were people actively looking for him.  Nobody decided that he was getting hemmed in by a bigger group filled with people who fought more with him...how could he survive.  BAM!  That -entire character- changed in less than 3 real life days based off of people pushing down on him.  He built an entire new support structure from himself since they had theirs.  He set all of his efforts towards 'well, how -can- I fuck them over?'.  He found commonality with enemies of his enemy.

He ended up living for 90 days.  He was defined at chargen the way I wanted him to be.  Zalanthas made him into something entirely different at about the 5 days of playing time mark.  It ended up being one of my favorite characters of all time...because I did -not- get pushed away by this thing that really kind of irritated me (this is all because I wouldn't give my -name-?).

More than actually preaching, I'm kind of trying to inspire here, for those who quickly fall underfoot in those situations.  I know that there are some things that -seem- to be far less than ideal and make you want to just 'bleh' at the game.  Roll with it the best you can.  It's not 100%, but these are often really surprising fonts of content that throw the whole game into overdrive.

Was hesitant to reply, as I want anyone to feel free to jump in!

If you were trying to inspire, you succeeded. Yes, that is an inspiring story. I've never gotten to 90 days played, I think the closest I've gotten was 40 days played some years back. I am now lucky if I can clock 10 days played over 6 IRL months these days. I have three jobs and work 60-80 hours a week.

Again, there are two golden nuggets in RavingTregil's post that are secretly related: the fact that Tuluki inks lower the barrier to plot entry, and the fact that the poster missing Tuluk is also busy AF. To put it in brief, Tuluk is [1] a foil to Allanak, [2] a place to play to get a reprieve from Allanak, and [3] a more casual playing experience than Allanak. And I think it is valuable to have something like this in the game.

Now, there was another time when I worked 60-80 hours a week and still tried to find the time to play Armageddon in addition to all the other crap I do. That was around six years ago, right before the Closure of Tuluk. I even checked my LinkedIn, character list and the Tuluk closure notice to fact check myself. What rocked about playing in Tuluk then? Again, the low barrier to entry. I was privy to the Sun Legions because it was the grittiest option (and had a creepy Starship Troopers vibe I liked), and again, unlike Allanak, was less likely to entangle you in some corruption-political-erotic-murder fest. And yes, I know two of those words there are in the motto of the game, and Allanak is more intense and more true to theme and "better." But I had at most 5 hours to blow on this game a week at the time, and Tuluk was able to provide that casual experience to busy veteran players like me. As many have mentioned, this is also why it was a great place for new players to start.

I'll stop in my loving on RavingTregil's post and return to my love for CodeMaster's post. I don't necessarily think we need to reopen Tuluk or a Tuluk-like place. I think CodeMaster's idea of making the game more playable for certain character concepts at the bottom is fantastic and yields the same benefit. It needs to be looked at seriously (as you said as well Armaddict <3). We can fix Allanak and ignore the rest, but the key here is we need something that is [1] a foil or contrast to mainstreet in Allanak, to borrow your term [2] offers a reprieve from some of the more work-intensive, life-and-death plotlines in Allanak and [3] is reasonably playable and slightly less likely to end in utter obliteration of plotlines either through excessive gatekeeping or lethal punishment.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6268
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #487 on: October 15, 2020, 03:08:31 PM »
As a non-tuluk player (I only played there a couple times), I fully acknowledge the giant void left when it was removed.  I feel like it could have been combatted in various ways, but we didn't really do...any of them.

But also as a non-Tuluk player, what exactly made the statement...

Quote
The biggest value Tuluk had over Allanak was you didn't have to hate fellow inked citizens. You could go in the Sanctuary
and talk to a noble, templar, aide, breed, elf, anyone and not be made to feel like you were a bad RPer for not following the docs.

...true?  The racism in particular is global.  Are we just saying that Allanaki racism often reduces to non-interaction, where Tuluki racism/classism was hidden behind a think wall during interaction?  I think I have a fundamental misunderstanding here, because the description always given to me was that Tuluk was just as bad, but everything was done with a smile.  Under the framework I've been posting under, both situations provide the same ample content to engage in.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

triste

  • Posts: 554
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #488 on: October 15, 2020, 03:31:38 PM »
I think you were replying to me at the start but I can't speak for RavingTregils who you quoted there. I would say Allanak does tend more towards non-interaction or antagonism. I am wondering if you are saying using the think and feel command and interacting in a more subtle way is a bad thing?

Regardless this reminds me of something OP Gentleboy has said before, that so many characters are a terse asshole type and don't go into small talk about their preferences and such. I told Gentleboy that "Yup, by the docs you shouldn't trust people like that." A pity Gentleboy couldn't experience Tuluk, he probably would have loved it.

Variety is the spice of life.

I hear the arguments about playerbase size and such, but as you say, "a giant void" was left and never filled. Maybe now is the time to fix it.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Dar

  • Posts: 1588
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #489 on: October 15, 2020, 04:49:49 PM »
Whenever there is a shooting on the street in my city, the whole city is abuzz. Cops are watchful and pissed off. That is 'not' how many murders take place.

Most murders that happen correctly happen this way.




While different deaths do happen. Expecting them is like expecting civil rights and fairness in a Zalanthan setting.

Lotion

  • Posts: 116
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #490 on: October 15, 2020, 04:50:30 PM »
One big problem I have with Allanak is that I think there's actually fewer qualified aides as a result of the Atrium being open.
25 lines :)

triste

  • Posts: 554
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #491 on: October 15, 2020, 05:13:11 PM »
One big problem I have with Allanak is that I think there's actually fewer qualified aides as a result of the Atrium being open.

Reopening the Atrium was a good effort because in theory it would have opened up more mediary roles between the ruling class and the non-ruling class, but unfortunately it had the effect of defining a very narrow hiring pool for aides (human southerners) whereas before the Atrium opened it was easier to informally become an aide even if you had an unusual background.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

SandCastle

  • Posts: 6
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #492 on: October 15, 2020, 05:17:04 PM »
Because would-be aides are stuck in training?  I hope aides would be almost as useful even if they haven't graduated yet.

Reel Code

  • Posts: 467
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #493 on: October 15, 2020, 05:28:10 PM »
One big problem I have with Allanak is that I think there's actually fewer qualified aides as a result of the Atrium being open.
I don't think this is inappropriate to share, but just some numbers for everyone so that the topic can be approached with some context:

Since the Atrium re-opening we have had 45 students come through. (6.5 students are inducted every RL month.) I think revealing how many graduate would be inappropriate but I feel confident that the numbers resemble how many leave the Byn "successfully" after their Runner year. I'm guessing 20-30% without going and physically counting my ledgers. I believe this has more to do with OOC factors than IC factors.

e.g. OOC factors: Not liking the clan/role, not finding an interesting sponsor, getting linked up with the wrong sponsor, playtimes not linking up with Atrium leadership/Noble leadership, and storage.

e.g. IC factors: Murder (of course), getting into too much trouble, Noble dooms PC, clan leadership dooms PC, running away.

I have discussed with staff in the past shortening the clan length to 2 months instead of 3 IC but we hadn't set a hard line on it as of yet. I'm perfectly fine with that and I believe staff is, as well. We just haven't done it, yet.

Reopening the Atrium was a good effort because in theory it would have opened up more mediary roles between the ruling class and the non-ruling class, but unfortunately it had the effect of defining a very narrow hiring pool for aides (human southerners) whereas before the Atrium opened it was easier to informally become an aide even if you had an unusual background.

Noble Houses only ever hired human Allanakis officially. Noble Houses have, will, and do hire undesirables "under the table". This is simply a secret, because it would be embarrassing for them if their rivals found out about it.

Because would-be aides are stuck in training?  I hope aides would be almost as useful even if they haven't graduated yet.

Some Nobles/Templars prefer that their aides begin working immediately while they are a student. Some prefer that they focus 100% on graduating the Atrium. Others still do not require that their aides graduate the Atrium and do not enter them. All of these have IC consequences and it's upon the Noble or Templar to decide what they want to do.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 05:30:32 PM by Reel Code »

triste

  • Posts: 554
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #494 on: October 15, 2020, 06:12:29 PM »
Those are some great stats that make me reassess my assumptions thanks for sharing them!
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Barsook

  • Posts: 8263
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #495 on: October 15, 2020, 06:27:19 PM »
One big problem I have with Allanak is that I think there's actually fewer qualified aides as a result of the Atrium being open.
I don't think this is inappropriate to share, but just some numbers for everyone so that the topic can be approached with some context:

Since the Atrium re-opening we have had 45 students come through. (6.5 students are inducted every RL month.) I think revealing how many graduate would be inappropriate but I feel confident that the numbers resemble how many leave the Byn "successfully" after their Runner year. I'm guessing 20-30% without going and physically counting my ledgers. I believe this has more to do with OOC factors than IC factors.

e.g. OOC factors: Not liking the clan/role, not finding an interesting sponsor, getting linked up with the wrong sponsor, playtimes not linking up with Atrium leadership/Noble leadership, and storage.

e.g. IC factors: Murder (of course), getting into too much trouble, Noble dooms PC, clan leadership dooms PC, running away.

I have discussed with staff in the past shortening the clan length to 2 months instead of 3 IC but we hadn't set a hard line on it as of yet. I'm perfectly fine with that and I believe staff is, as well. We just haven't done it, yet.

Reopening the Atrium was a good effort because in theory it would have opened up more mediary roles between the ruling class and the non-ruling class, but unfortunately it had the effect of defining a very narrow hiring pool for aides (human southerners) whereas before the Atrium opened it was easier to informally become an aide even if you had an unusual background.

Noble Houses only ever hired human Allanakis officially. Noble Houses have, will, and do hire undesirables "under the table". This is simply a secret, because it would be embarrassing for them if their rivals found out about it.

Because would-be aides are stuck in training?  I hope aides would be almost as useful even if they haven't graduated yet.

Some Nobles/Templars prefer that their aides begin working immediately while they are a student. Some prefer that they focus 100% on graduating the Atrium. Others still do not require that their aides graduate the Atrium and do not enter them. All of these have IC consequences and it's upon the Noble or Templar to decide what they want to do.

On the flip-side, do we have numbers of how many aides were there when the school wasn't open?

Reel Code

  • Posts: 467
Re: The Allanak Problem
« Reply #496 on: October 15, 2020, 07:14:36 PM »
On the flip-side, do we have numbers of how many aides were there when the school wasn't open?

I do not, personally.

From my basic and non-staff investigation it appears that the clan comes/goes if there is sufficient player/staff interest to run the clan. My personal thanks to staff who have run it in the past, especially in the time I've been playing, such as: Talia, Eurynomous, Oryx, etc. It is similar to many clans in that it cycles based on interest. Here are the time periods:

Open March 2020-Present
Closed June 2018-March 2020
Open August 2017-June 2018
Closed November 2016-August 2017
Open December 2014-November 2016
Closed April 2012-December 2014
Open? December 2011-April 2012 (uncomfirmed)
Closed? 2006-2011

Further back than 2007 is spotty as the GDB was not used and I may be incorrect. IG boards were more in favor, back then.

I would hazard a guess by these dates that if the Atrium is closed tomorrow, then by 1-1.5 years it is re-opened based on trends. If I were buying stock, I would buy Atrium stock -- I know it is going to rise again, no matter what.

I know that playing a noble without the Atrium open is more difficult than when it is open. I did not have the time or inclination to train servants as a noble without adding another 10-20 hours to my playtimes. Add into that that I lost perhaps 5 aides to low playtimes, RL, storage, and IC murder -- it's just not plausible to go back and hire/train as a noble for most players.

Let us not forget if you stick to core Allanaki documentation: it is not really appropriate for a noble to teach a servant basic stuff. Servants ought to undergo some indoctrination and training by either the Noble House who is hiring them via Advisors/Senior Aides or some other entity, such as the Atrium school. Most of the knowledge gained isn't easily consumed by simply reading public documentation.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 07:36:32 PM by Reel Code »