Author Topic: Stop Auto-storing Elves!  (Read 1934 times)

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8270
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2020, 07:46:56 PM »
I should point out that city elves can also live in Red Storm.  Sifting is also a popular profession there, which occurs outside the city (though at least not too far).  I believe the lure of fame and fortune could possibly coax a city elf out of Red Storm to go skimming.

However, you may be right about the explanation of just not trusting anything their feet can't do.  At least if something like that would be added to the documentation, it wouldn't contradict itself.

I'd say they wouldn't trust anything their own bodies can't do. Since, for hypothetical shits and giggles, a snot-elemental mage can use the power of his own snot to travel.  So he still wouldn't ever trust a skimmer, since skimmers don't use snot to move over the silt.
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gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 939
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2020, 08:13:00 PM »
The lore of elves believing riding/piloting is shameful is a stupid piece of poor writing. To me it appears to be an obvious balance choice that's been taken to a logical extreme as the game has progressed. If it is original Darksun lore it probably made sense in the D&D setting and in a MUD it loses all of it's luster.

I'm guessing that this is some sort of gimp to city elves so they don't get bonuses to do with their stats. From a gameplay perspective that's the only guess I can make. It is an extreme reduction in quality of life (wonder what the stats on elves in the byn versus every other race look like) and make the only reason to play them, aside from some really weird builds, pretty much only to earn goodboy points or terrorize about 100 rooms (to be read Allanak) out of the entire Known.

It's a stupid idea that should go the way of the halfling. Let Celfs ride, or all elves ride. The lore surrounding all elven customs (stealing, cannot ride, tests) show a bad understanding of racial identity and are generally poorly acted out by the players in my experience. That goes double for the "elven test" junk.

In a world where mantises and half-giants can apparently ride inix but elves can't? LOL
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 08:21:24 PM by gotdamnmiracle »
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gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 939
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2020, 08:54:03 PM »
I'm double posting.

Elves are hyper insular. If you want interesting elves make all of their belief and customs tribe specific. If you very badly want elves who can't ride/pilot then make a tribe that believes that it is shameful. The genetic predisposition to dislike riding and like stealing reads like something between a fifth graders understanding of genetics and a 19th century racist's first pass at a theory justifying scientific racism.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 09:26:23 PM by gotdamnmiracle »
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Spider

  • Posts: 287
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2020, 01:57:43 AM »
Glad to see this discussion come around again.  To me, a general antagonism between elves and everyone else is a sufficient racial distinction from which to launch fun and interesting RP.  The riding/piloting restriction only succeeds in making a chore out of the parts of the game that I find most fun, like wandering, exploring, and high adventure, while playing a city elf.  I'm aware of the justification by the documentation for it, but it really isn't something necessary to keep around for the health, and RP fun, of the game. 

Though, nothing stops you from playing an antagonistic towards everyone human, so there's that.

Thanks for bringing this up, and I hope it gets serious consideration.

I dream of the day of a byn unit filled with elves, humans, and dwarves, getting into fights with one another before riding out together on a contract.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 02:04:48 AM by Spider »

RogueGunslinger

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Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2020, 02:52:20 AM »
I've seen this argument annually for the past 12 years. Give up on city elves ever changing and learn to like them for what they are. Or avoid them. Or just play a Desert Elf.

Dresan

  • Posts: 1507
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2020, 07:17:52 AM »
I don't think we will ever see elves riding mounts but I think a more plausible change would be to let them run in the desert like their d-elf cousins can.

Considering the following:
  • c-elves still cannot take wilderness classes
  • the disadvantages of being attack/charged at by a mounted enemy or animals
  • low strength that need to be prioritized above endurance, high agility which hinders being able to learn combat from animals
  • c-elf endurance is shit even if prioritized and resting under the sun takes a long time

Basically they will still really suck outdoors but still be able to perform a little better in the clans they can join like the byn and garrison. It might also allow staff to review the clans they currently can and can not join and see where they might be able to make some changes to give elves more clan opportunities.

Allowing elves to join Salarr and Kadius as low level merchants might help things, GMHs are not nobles, and some restriction there could be eased up.

 I mention this because I don't think a clan like the bejeweled hand is what Allanak needs, especially with two-moons doing a bit of the elven merchant thing already with some opportunities for c-elves. And yet when I think of the current state of plots in the game, the only thing that comes to mind when I think of a clan like the Juxa Pah opening up is the song 'Let the bodies hit the floor (Bodies)--by Drowning Pool'
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Greve

  • Posts: 208
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2020, 02:51:07 PM »
C-elves need x/y/z because x/y/z threads have been going on for years. There is a cycle to this things. Not enough hate for breeds is probably next in line.

That said,  the documentation does not make the state of elves in game clear enough, or outline just how much content in the game is denied to them. C-elves are the second largest race in the cities and yet it feels there are times when there are more defilers, muls and half-elves in the game then there are elven PCs.

It is a bleaker experience even if you join anyone of the few clan that takes elves. And that bleak experience is not at an IC level its OOC. That is because ICly you can have your vnpc tribe, the vnpc elf race in the background etc. However, OOCly you have to put up with the inability to join in many of the experience offered by clans you can join. If you want to experience that IC hate and discrimination while still having access to all the content you can play half-elves.

Lets not forget that all c-elves are thieves according to documentation, luckily people's OOC thoughts on stealth and thieves do not bleed into the game. I sure haven't heard PC in the game state that taverns are empty because of the thieves. I sure haven't played one of the few elves in the game only to have strangers find my mind accusing me of stealing their virtual shit. /sarcasm  ::) Even certain interaction and opportunities utterly feel like OOC pity from players who understand the challenges of the role.

I sincerely believe that just one solution will not put elves in a better place. Even if the Juxa Pah opened, it would not be a long term solution,especially with the many of the game's plot devolving into who wants to kill who for whatever petty reason.   That said it would be a fun short term solution which I would watch the fireworks from afar :)

Which coded clans even remain that are available to c-elves? The Byn, the Garrison (can elves join that?) and I suppose they could probably join the Crimson Wind if those are still active. Isn't that it? To my knowledge, none of the eastside 'rinth ones are open anymore. Those were really the only clans where elves felt right, because even if they're allowed to join the Byn, they're pretty useless there due to the inability to ride.

Aside from the shortage of clans for the race, one of the main things that keep c-elves so underplayed is their awful stats--or, rather, the inflated importance of strength. Strength makes such a ridiculously big difference in combat that a race with low strength is just not appealing for fighter types. Desert elves can get away with it a little better due to their high racial stealth skills and the fact that they're much better suited for archery.

I would give c-elves the same innate stealth skills as d-elves, and nerf the strength stat's contribution to damage so that its impact on combat performance isn't so mindbogglingly huge. That change would be good for the game in general, not just for elves. It's long past due that a coder looks into the staggering imbalance of stats, and I think that plays a much bigger role in the shortage of elves than things like their inability to ride skimmers and wagons. Those are things you can roleplay around, and which won't matter to most elven characters. Doing half the damage of a human is something that affects all elven combat characters.

And is there an open eastside 'rinth clan? I can't be certain if there still is and it's just dead or if they've all been closed. The goal should really be for there to always be one active clan on each side of the 'rinth. We've even seen role calls for the Guild on occasion. Why not try to bolster the elven side a little? This is an area that absolutely requires clan activity in order to function at all. Last time there was one, the eastside seemed to do just fine. If it still exists but simply hasn't got any players in it, whip up a sponsored role for it.


seidhr

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Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2020, 04:06:56 PM »
Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.

Saellyn

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Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2020, 04:17:17 PM »

Lizzie

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Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2020, 04:36:54 PM »
Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.

So, wait - are you saying I can set up a tent, get inside it, and "pilot north" to move the tent while I"m in it?
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1507
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2020, 05:19:24 PM »
As far as I know c-elves have the following options:
  • Byn (ride heavy)
  • Garrison (ride heavy)
  • Kurac (no idea what progression is available for c-elves in Kurac anymore. potentially travel heavy)
  • Two-moon (c-elves joining the much more code superior but RP restricted d-elves. lol. Run heavy.)

They cannot join crimson wind and the only clan option in the Rinth has been equivalent to start up player clan with no real coded support which i don't even think is even around anymore.  The current state of the game is one where the biggest plots are basically who wants to kill who for whatever petty reason,  and PC elves have the least coded IC support and the least coded power.

I just don't quite believe a c-elf tribe will solve all the problems here.

RogueGunslinger has the right idea though at this point, after so many years this is just how things are in the game. Just wish whenever anyone was trying to play an elf people would get a warning sign that is just not physical strength they are being denied.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 07:00:27 PM by Dresan »
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gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2020, 05:42:11 PM »
Oh. I don't think anything will change. I can't think of one time criticisms like this have sparked any good change. I have a feeling this probably won't ever change. Well, not unless, WoTC comes a callin' and threatens the game again. I'm certain then we'd see a whole lot of short-lived originality.
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seidhr

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Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2020, 07:29:58 PM »
So, wait - are you saying I can set up a tent, get inside it, and "pilot north" to move the tent while I"m in it?

No, the controlling of the wagon movement is done via some Javascripts that be attached to a particular room to make a particular "wagon" object move around. That's done separately from defining the object itself, that you enter (which is the 'wagon').  That's why wagons can have one or many rooms, because the piloting scripts are just attached in the one place.  If some staffer put the piloting javascripts into a tent though, then yes, you could totally do that!

AdamBlue

  • Posts: 882
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2020, 08:14:28 PM »
So, wait - are you saying I can set up a tent, get inside it, and "pilot north" to move the tent while I"m in it?

No, the controlling of the wagon movement is done via some Javascripts that be attached to a particular room to make a particular "wagon" object move around. That's done separately from defining the object itself, that you enter (which is the 'wagon').  That's why wagons can have one or many rooms, because the piloting scripts are just attached in the one place.  If some staffer put the piloting javascripts into a tent though, then yes, you could totally do that!

So what you're telling me is that I can put wheels on my tent and tell staff to let me drive it around.

DesertT

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Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2020, 08:18:02 PM »
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

mirk_o_loio

  • Posts: 168
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2020, 03:00:59 AM »
I'Ll customcraft that right now.
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NinjaFruitSalad

  • Posts: 147
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2020, 04:03:07 PM »
I've seen this argument annually for the past 12 years. Give up on city elves ever changing and learn to like them for what they are. Or avoid them. Or just play a Desert Elf.
You'd think that if people keep complaining about the same subject year after year, something would get done, or should get done.

Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.
Also, I was thinking something more a long the lines that if a wagon ever started moving when the elf was on it, then there would be trouble.  It's not just "entering wagons".

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8270
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2020, 05:10:40 PM »
I've seen this argument annually for the past 12 years. Give up on city elves ever changing and learn to like them for what they are. Or avoid them. Or just play a Desert Elf.
You'd think that if people keep complaining about the same subject year after year, something would get done, or should get done.

Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.
Also, I was thinking something more a long the lines that if a wagon ever started moving when the elf was on it, then there would be trouble.  It's not just "entering wagons".

You'd think if the staff said no year after year, people would stop asking for the thing. Sort of like "I want half-elves to be accepted, because in real life, mixed races should be accepted." "No, half-breeds in the game are universally considered inferior, even by themselves." "But..." "No." "Yeah but..." "No."

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Spider

  • Posts: 287
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2020, 08:01:52 PM »
I've seen this argument annually for the past 12 years. Give up on city elves ever changing and learn to like them for what they are. Or avoid them. Or just play a Desert Elf.
You'd think that if people keep complaining about the same subject year after year, something would get done, or should get done.

Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.
Also, I was thinking something more a long the lines that if a wagon ever started moving when the elf was on it, then there would be trouble.  It's not just "entering wagons".

You'd think if the staff said no year after year, people would stop asking for the thing. Sort of like "I want half-elves to be accepted, because in real life, mixed races should be accepted." "No, half-breeds in the game are universally considered inferior, even by themselves." "But..." "No." "Yeah but..." "No."

It's more like, the RP fun of playing city elves would improve if the documentation enforcing an ultimately arbitrary stipulation was removed.  Has nothing to do with real life other than it would be more fun if it were otherwise, to those that argue it ought to change.  That staff haven't changed things is not a reason to stop trying.  People change their minds all the time, especially as the years go on.

NinjaFruitSalad

  • Posts: 147
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2020, 08:14:53 PM »
Probably also something to consider. I really doubt this is just the same person nagging over and over, like a whiny child.

I'm sure over the years, there have been many different people asking for this.  And where are they now?  Well, I don't know, but from what I understand the population has declined somewhat and we've lost content.. many people say the game world has shrunk to accommodate a smaller playerbase.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8270
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2020, 09:36:03 PM »
I've seen this argument annually for the past 12 years. Give up on city elves ever changing and learn to like them for what they are. Or avoid them. Or just play a Desert Elf.
You'd think that if people keep complaining about the same subject year after year, something would get done, or should get done.

Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.
Also, I was thinking something more a long the lines that if a wagon ever started moving when the elf was on it, then there would be trouble.  It's not just "entering wagons".

You'd think if the staff said no year after year, people would stop asking for the thing. Sort of like "I want half-elves to be accepted, because in real life, mixed races should be accepted." "No, half-breeds in the game are universally considered inferior, even by themselves." "But..." "No." "Yeah but..." "No."

It's more like, the RP fun of playing city elves would improve if the documentation enforcing an ultimately arbitrary stipulation was removed.  Has nothing to do with real life other than it would be more fun if it were otherwise, to those that argue it ought to change.  That staff haven't changed things is not a reason to stop trying.  People change their minds all the time, especially as the years go on.

The RP fun for players who want city elves to be something other than what the documentation says they are, would improve. The RP fun for people who like playing city elves the way they are, would decrease.

There are options to play almost anything you want in Armageddon. If you don't like the style of RP required to play a city elf, you can pick a different one.

City elves are definitely not for everyone. I've never played one, because it seemed too intimidating to try. But they are what they are, and the rest of the world interacts with them the way they do, because of the documentation. They're a quirky sub-species with a quirky background built into their existence.

So are muls, so are dwarves and so are half-giants. They have their weaknesses, and are not easy to play well, and are limited in scope. If we were to broaden the coded scope of them, or changed their lore - if we didn't make half-giants stupid, or dwarves have a focus, or muls have the whole futility thing going for them - the entire game would cease to be what it was intended to be.


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Spider

  • Posts: 287
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2020, 09:45:08 PM »
I've seen this argument annually for the past 12 years. Give up on city elves ever changing and learn to like them for what they are. Or avoid them. Or just play a Desert Elf.
You'd think that if people keep complaining about the same subject year after year, something would get done, or should get done.

Fun fact of the day!

Codedly, any tent or cave or shop or building that you go into with the "enter" command is a "wagon" object.

So if the game was auto-storing elves for going into wagons, d-elves would get stored for going into their camps, c-elves would get stored for shopping, etc.
Also, I was thinking something more a long the lines that if a wagon ever started moving when the elf was on it, then there would be trouble.  It's not just "entering wagons".

You'd think if the staff said no year after year, people would stop asking for the thing. Sort of like "I want half-elves to be accepted, because in real life, mixed races should be accepted." "No, half-breeds in the game are universally considered inferior, even by themselves." "But..." "No." "Yeah but..." "No."

It's more like, the RP fun of playing city elves would improve if the documentation enforcing an ultimately arbitrary stipulation was removed.  Has nothing to do with real life other than it would be more fun if it were otherwise, to those that argue it ought to change.  That staff haven't changed things is not a reason to stop trying.  People change their minds all the time, especially as the years go on.

The RP fun for players who want city elves to be something other than what the documentation says they are, would improve. The RP fun for people who like playing city elves the way they are, would decrease.

There are options to play almost anything you want in Armageddon. If you don't like the style of RP required to play a city elf, you can pick a different one.

City elves are definitely not for everyone. I've never played one, because it seemed too intimidating to try. But they are what they are, and the rest of the world interacts with them the way they do, because of the documentation. They're a quirky sub-species with a quirky background built into their existence.

So are muls, so are dwarves and so are half-giants. They have their weaknesses, and are not easy to play well, and are limited in scope. If we were to broaden the coded scope of them, or changed their lore - if we didn't make half-giants stupid, or dwarves have a focus, or muls have the whole futility thing going for them - the entire game would cease to be what it was intended to be.

If I could quote simpler I would.  You are right, the game would change in a way it wasn't intended to be, just as it has several times over the years.  I know you are concerned about the slippery slope, but I am not arguing for changing half-giants and muls.  They can still interact with the coded world, as in traveling reasonably around, and that's the main issue.  It's not as if I am asking to change elvish mentality, or general hatred toward them, I enjoy those things.  However, I do not enjoy the chore it is to experience the coded world with them as a result of the pain in the ass it is to travel with city elves.

I think it'd improve city elves as a playable race by allowing them to play in a byn like clan, while also being able to do you know... Byn things, without OOCly pulling one's hair out.

Edited to add: As far as the choice thing and some people finding it less fun if the change comes in doesn't really work.  A player can choose, if a change happens, to play an elf the old way.  There is no restriction doing that as far as documentation.  The restriction that exists now stifles game play, lifting the restriction does not.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 09:55:51 PM by Spider »

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8270
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2020, 10:12:14 PM »
If I could quote simpler I would.  You are right, the game would change in a way it wasn't intended to be, just as it has several times over the years.  I know you are concerned about the slippery slope, but I am not arguing for changing half-giants and muls.  They can still interact with the coded world, as in traveling reasonably around, and that's the main issue.  It's not as if I am asking to change elvish mentality, or general hatred toward them, I enjoy those things.  However, I do not enjoy the chore it is to experience the coded world with them as a result of the pain in the ass it is to travel with city elves.

I think it'd improve city elves as a playable race by allowing them to play in a byn like clan, while also being able to do you know... Byn things, without OOCly pulling one's hair out.

Edited to add: As far as the choice thing and some people finding it less fun if the change comes in doesn't really work.  A player can choose, if a change happens, to play an elf the old way.  There is no restriction doing that as far as documentation.  The restriction that exists now stifles game play, lifting the restriction does not.

To un-nest while still quoting the latest response - start at the end of the first line of text, which is the quote code for the most recent person to post prior to your new response. Press the control key, then arrow down until you get to the first line of text of the most recent response. Hit the delete button. Control-end to get the cursor to appear at the end of the [../...quote...] and start typing. Old-style keyboarding FTW :)

I guess - to me, the entire point of playing a city elf is to play a character who has NO Interest, ever, of leaving the city. If you want to play an elf who leaves the city, instead of asking for a city elf that rides, just make a desert elf. I would be much more in favor of restoring SOME options for non-coded elf tribes, than I would in giving city elves the "permission" to ride in a wagon or on a silt skimmer.

And I feel that no elf would ever want to go to the silt sea, at all, ever. If you want to play a character who might have an interest in the silt sea, then don't play an elf. You can play a breed that passes as an elf, and hides that dirty little secret of being a breed, until that moment when he gets on a silt skimmer. It can make for some pretty awesome RP, I think.

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mansa

  • Posts: 9904
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2020, 10:22:45 PM »
The thing I want to take into account, is that elves are an extremely popular race in the fantasy playspace.  They are the #2 race after humans in terms of playing in roleplaying games.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/

In ArmageddonMUD, they are a 0 karma race, available to anyone.

I feel that in order to make the race more attractive and easier to play for brand new players, some of the limitations and characteristics of elves within our game should be reassessed to allow an easier roleplaying experience.  We want players to be able to jump in and get it, and start playing out the world of Zalanthas.

Yes, change some of the aspects of the city elf race in the game world to make it easier to play.
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


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NinjaFruitSalad

  • Posts: 147
Re: Stop Auto-storing Elves!
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2020, 10:26:36 PM »
I do not think a slight change to documentation on elves would negatively impact anyone. What I've been asking for is a bit more leniency and freedom with their behaviors, and the only reasoning behind this is because the documentation itself seems self-contradictory without any of the caveats presented. What should make sense to do and be justifiable turns out to be a sacrilegious idea..  when the very reason given for such notions does not apply at all.

I mean, if you want to keep being a thieving scoundrel, you can go right on ahead.  If you want to RP an elf that absolutely, vehemently, will never EVER board a wagon no matter what, for any purpose, even if it's not moving, you could also still do that.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 10:28:32 PM by NinjaFruitSalad »