Get rid of the way

[Gentleboy]

I think that use of the way makes the game world and any player plots move too quick. I think it's also a cheap way to warn people quickly, and spy. I think waying gets rid of a lot of RP moments and possibilities.

So, what if the common people knew how to write. It's not like they have a library. And it would need to be a skill learned over time like drawing. The more you write the better.

I wish we had letters and couriers. They Way is honestly, too easy. I dunno, thoughts?

[Nao]

I honestly would have trouble finding anyone without the way.

[Dar]

You would encourage out of the game distance communication. You would make iso roles even harder. I understand what you are saying, but the solution is worse then the problem.

I can get behind making the way taxing enough that it requires greater concentration/being stationary to do though

[Kyviantre]

For someone playing an iso role with about 70% long-distance communication, and the risk that will rocket up to 99% long-distance if <specific thing> happens...please no!

For someone who is off-peak, and struggles to get any progress because I usually catch people at odd hours, so have to do a lot of Way-based organising before meet-ups can happen, and for whom not having that as an option would mean even like a high social role like my last character, would mean I would be solo-playing most of the time...seriously, NO!

It might be fine to get rid of it if you're a peak player who is in a high social role in one of the main game hubs...but for anyone not in that specific niche, it would entirely remove the 'RP' part of this RP game what we are playing.  Don't know about other people, but I play to RP (don't ask about the iso role...I had a good reason at the time!), and even the Way involves RP.

I cannot express how 'oh dear please fuck no' on every level this is.

And the Way + no writing is kinda one of the big things that makes Arm special and unique in MUDs.  Every other MUD I've played has writing and no psionic-communications.  Ripping out a major thing that makes it different...seems ludicrous!

[Majikal]

While I disagree with the OP's desire to remove the way as it's far too useful in providing roleplay and interaction, the reason we're here. It would make some timezones nearly unplayable as well.

As to the way removing RP possibilities. I find that players rely on secret-keeping ways that are too effective and in essence, against the spirit of the game. Amazing plothooks get whispered about at tables in wagons with both parties barriered and the conversation isn't exactly top secret to begin with. Is it really such a big deal that merchant A dislikes merchant B, no, but it does provide a place for plenty of people to insert themselves into the friction if the word gets out. Some conversations never see the say/talk command and are only wayed, effectively reducing those that can capture that information to a single class. The most mundane of talking points that carry the smallest opportunity of friction and intrigue are vaulted up to the extreme and that has become more common as players have become "better" at the game.

[triste]

+1 to all the people saying we absolutely must keep the Way, but also open to nerfing it. My random idea for nerfing it is it would be absolutely hilarious if there were a chance to critically fail a Way and end up saying what you tried to Way aloud, maybe as a whisper with a distinct echo like "murmurs to themselves." The amount of salacious stuff that would slip that way would be an absolute hoot.

Another idea Delerak floated a while back is making psionics like mind reading slightly more common with more guild/subguilds possessing psionic skills. That would also be an interesting "nerf" on the Way that actually expands one of the best themes in this game.

[Blink]

+1 to all the people saying we absolutely must keep the Way, but also open to nerfing it. My random idea for nerfing it is it would be absolutely hilarious if there were a chance to critically fail a Way and end up saying what you tried to Way aloud, maybe as a whisper with a distinct echo like "murmurs to themselves." The amount of salacious stuff that would slip that way would be an absolute hoot.

I already screw this up quite enough on my own, thank you very much.     I could write a book about the number of times I have used 'talk' when it should have been 'psi'.

[triste]

+1 to all the people saying we absolutely must keep the Way, but also open to nerfing it. My random idea for nerfing it is it would be absolutely hilarious if there were a chance to critically fail a Way and end up saying what you tried to Way aloud, maybe as a whisper with a distinct echo like "murmurs to themselves." The amount of salacious stuff that would slip that way would be an absolute hoot.

I already screw this up quite enough on my own, thank you very much.     I could write a book about the number of times I have used 'talk' when it should have been 'psi'.

And every time it happens it is comedic gold! If codedly supported, it would allow people to gossip about those juicy psis they overhear. [Not really serious about this idea but it is one of many ways we can address OP's concern while keeping psionics].

[Alesan]

+1 to all the people saying we absolutely must keep the Way, but also open to nerfing it. My random idea for nerfing it is it would be absolutely hilarious if there were a chance to critically fail a Way and end up saying what you tried to Way aloud, maybe as a whisper with a distinct echo like "murmurs to themselves." The amount of salacious stuff that would slip that way would be an absolute hoot.

I already screw this up quite enough on my own, thank you very much.     I could write a book about the number of times I have used 'talk' when it should have been 'psi'.

And every time it happens it is comedic gold! If codedly supported, it would allow people to gossip about those juicy psis they overhear. [Not really serious about this idea but it is one of many ways we can address OP's concern while keeping psionics].

If this were to actually happen, people would just save all their waying for behind closed doors. Even moreso than they do already. Not that I'm advocating for getting rid of the Way, because I'm not.

[triste]

+1 to all the people saying we absolutely must keep the Way, but also open to nerfing it. My random idea for nerfing it is it would be absolutely hilarious if there were a chance to critically fail a Way and end up saying what you tried to Way aloud, maybe as a whisper with a distinct echo like "murmurs to themselves." The amount of salacious stuff that would slip that way would be an absolute hoot.

I already screw this up quite enough on my own, thank you very much.     I could write a book about the number of times I have used 'talk' when it should have been 'psi'.

And every time it happens it is comedic gold! If codedly supported, it would allow people to gossip about those juicy psis they overhear. [Not really serious about this idea but it is one of many ways we can address OP's concern while keeping psionics].

If this were to actually happen, people would just save all their waying for behind closed doors. Even moreso than they do already. Not that I'm advocating for getting rid of the Way, because I'm not.

Yep, it is a jokey idea we can throw in the can. Not being to way while moving as someone else recommended would be a burden on many leader/outdoors types, so maybe Delerak's idea about making non-way psionics more common [or keeping things as they are] is the best option.

[triste]

Random, optional tangent about non-way psionics: When I started playing around nine years ago, I was told half-giants could sense other people using the feel and mood command. I thought this was awesome, and an interesting take on both psionics and this stereotypically dumb race. However in all of my time of playing a half-giant, I have not observed this, so I do not think it is true. But if perks like this were in game, maybe not necessarily for half-giants but more common in general, imagine how much more people would use these often neglected commands like feel and mood and think would be used. Imagine how much richer roleplay would be -- we would no longer be relegated to high school gossip, he-said-she-said crap. Relationships can develop in a more thought out way -- literally. Vendettas could exist in subtext and everything would not have to be so overt. Random PCs could suddenly have gifts that make them valuable to politics, rather than the current monotony of having to rely on people who play the "stealth meta" well, rather than the monotony of people hoarding information on the way as OP states, etc.

[Dresan]

Waying behind close doors seems to quite popular.

With all sorts of reason why its happening:
-Thieves
-Murderers
-Templars
-RL
-playing other games on the side

Regardless of why we cannot get rid of the way, because the game and in particular Allanak the basket were all the eggs currently are, was definately not designed for it. You'll basically kill off a good number of roles that cannot easily access Allanak if The Way disappears.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

What if...  not everyone had Contact at master levels?  Except the characters with psion classes of course.  Or maybe a subguild that can master it.  I think certain people who play merchants would feel this kind of subguild is invaluable

This may be the nerf we need.

Makes it so the quick/cheap spying and quickly spreading urgent news could fail.  Also makes waying people more annoying though.  On the plus side, however, everyone and their mother are far more likely to have trouble crushing your own psychic barriers.

[HeeBeeGB]

I think another thought had been proposed before, of making the Way easier within X amount of distance. The further the distance, the harder it is to reach people, and the more difficult it is to get a psionic message through. Think a mixture of the 'Alcohol Code' with the Way.

So, if you are in Morin's Village, and texting someone in Red Storm, it would be very hard to find their mind in the first place, and then harder still to get a message or two off.

If you are in Morin's Village and texting someone in Luirs, it'd be a bit harder than it is now, but still doable.

If you are in Luirs and trying to get someone in the Tablelands, or Allanak, it'd be a bit harder than it is now, but still doable.

Perhaps the Way is more difficult to use 'Outside'. So if you are riding, or in the wastes, using the way diminishes your ability to focus on your immediate surroundings -- Scanning, Listening, and such preventing you or making it more difficult to use the Way.

As well, it was suggested that the Combat Timer affect how quickly you can use the Way. I think more than a few of us have been a part of/experienced attempting to kill someone, just for them to run away and Way everyone and their mother your description. Having a message 'You are too excited to use the Way right now!' would suffice.

Others have suggested it being more obvious (via HEmote or SEmote tells) that someone is using the Way. Perhaps they miss things that are said at your table, because they are concentrating on the Way.

The Way really should be useful for short-to-mid-distance communication, and in a relaxed environment. As it stands, people can juggle about ten people in their mind and still carry on in the physical world, and I'm not sure that is suitable to the theme of the game.

[HeeBeeGB]

I wish we had letters and couriers. They Way is honestly, too easy. I dunno, thoughts?

I too wish we had letters and couriers. It is a shame that such a rich world and RPI is handicapped by holding on to one of the more archaic 'themes' of Dark Sun, while shirking off a majority of the others. Commoners are not Literate. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I find that unfortunate, because letters and writing are incredibly suitable to a game built on the written word. However, only a tiny slice of the population at a given time has access or even the ability to read and write.

In the absence of writing being legalized (Likely will Never happen), having 'Courier NPCs' could stand in their place. Pay 50 coins to leave a message for Soandso. It could be restricted to 1-3 'Says/Tells' that you give to the courier, applying the same rules as 'rumors' as well as no OOC information and if it is discovered you break those, the ability is toggled off on your account. Soandso could pay to pick up their messages and so on. Even better, make the courier NPCs bartenders and innkeepers.

Part of the benefit of this is that the messages/information would be then told to the PC, and the one doing the telling in the first place would have to tell or whisper the words. This provides an opportunity for the messages to be overheard, and thus, disseminated.

[triste]

I wish we had letters and couriers. They Way is honestly, too easy. I dunno, thoughts?

I too wish we had letters and couriers. It is a shame that such a rich world and RPI is handicapped by holding on to one of the more archaic 'themes' of Dark Sun, while shirking off a majority of the others. Commoners are not Literate. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I find that unfortunate, because letters and writing are incredibly suitable to a game built on the written word. However, only a tiny slice of the population at a given time has access or even the ability to read and write.

In the absence of writing being legalized (Likely will Never happen), having 'Courier NPCs' could stand in their place. Pay 50 coins to leave a message for Soandso. It could be restricted to 1-3 'Says/Tells' that you give to the courier, applying the same rules as 'rumors' as well as no OOC information and if it is discovered you break those, the ability is toggled off on your account. Soandso could pay to pick up their messages and so on. Even better, make the courier NPCs bartenders and innkeepers.

Part of the benefit of this is that the messages/information would be then told to the PC, and the one doing the telling in the first place would have to tell or whisper the words. This provides an opportunity for the messages to be overheard, and thus, disseminated.

Definitely have been in favor of asynchronous communication like this for a while and have not been a huge fan of how waying has to be synchronous [AKA both people on at the same time]. Might even help retain players who are busy and can only log in rarely.

[Gentleboy]

UwU So many good ideas. Gotta start radical and then build from there.

[mirk_o_loio]

I didn't read the entire thread, too stoned and too lazy... so slap me if it was suggested already...


But what about a chargen option to play a psionically-mute person? One that's unable to use the way, but can still be contacted?

[Dresan]

The way used to start novice which often lead to newbies on the ground passed on it taverns as they tried to contact clan leaders for jobs. After much outcry from players it was changed for everyone to start at master, which was a good move that leads to less frustration of starting a new character.

Why do people want to further gimp roles outside of Allanak anyways?

I think the problems in Allanak of people relying on the way to have conversation within the city can be solved by adding a few more aggressive mindworms that are local to the city.

[Riev]

A small subset of people want to change the game's core dynamics. I have multiple theories why, but they're just theories.

People want to gimp roles outside of Allanak, in my opinion, because Allanak has gotten stale. Stale, in this case, meaning "I've been there, done a bunch of stuff there, and I want something different".

Roles outside Allanak should be "hard" and "gritty", making Allanak seem tame in comparison. Other than PvE mobs, it is generally the same, you just do not have PCs in positions of sorcerous power and the ability to kill people indiscriminately and say "thats how the city is".

Making the Way harder to use, causes people to be in closer proximity. For some, this is a social game with some coded combat, and they want to be closer to other people, so they can play with them. For others, this is a secretive, backstabbing world where you an't trust anyone but yourself ICly or OOCly, so they want to play distant. In both cases, making gimping roles outside the only city we're allowed to play in gives it that harshness people think they want.

[Dresan]

It might be worth seeing an "Has Allanak gotten stale?" thread. With varying opinions and ideas.

The statement that the city is stale pops up anytime anyone suggests something different like opening up Tuluk.

I wonder if opinions differ between those playing sponsored roles and normal roles.

[Iiyola]

+1 to all the people saying we absolutely must keep the Way, but also open to nerfing it. My random idea for nerfing it is it would be absolutely hilarious if there were a chance to critically fail a Way and end up saying what you tried to Way aloud, maybe as a whisper with a distinct echo like "murmurs to themselves." The amount of salacious stuff that would slip that way would be an absolute hoot.

I already screw this up quite enough on my own, thank you very much.     I could write a book about the number of times I have used 'talk' when it should have been 'psi'.

And every time it happens it is comedic gold! If codedly supported, it would allow people to gossip about those juicy psis they overhear. [Not really serious about this idea but it is one of many ways we can address OP's concern while keeping psionics].

I'm still getting an eye-twitch when I think of that time we had Loose Tongue on the loose in Allanak. I HATED it.

[tapas]

I don't think we should get rid of the way. In fact I think it's essential for all the reasons stated above.

But it's current design is bad.The way is instant communication that is basically fail safe with regards to about 99% of the player population. So of course people are constantly going to be tossing psionic messages at each other. It really doesn't matter how GD silly it is for two players to be waying each other at the table or getting reamed by your boss for saying something outloud you should have wayed. An that's on top of all the shitty plot hoarding that goes on with it.

There are solutions to this. One suggestion was to put some low tier psionic classes into rotation. I don't think it's as good because I think anyone should be allowed to be a spy. Not just humans with a particular subclass.

Another one is to just give mundanes a way of intercepting psionic messages. Though every time I suggest this, someone loses their shit because it doesn't jam with the silly psionicist helpfile.

[Is Friday]

My 2 recommendations to improve the Way and its function in game: (improve plots)

• Reduce PCs to 1-2 psionic message an IC day. This will change the dynamic and force people to only use it for "important" stuff or some agreement to meet in person.
• All of the changes Majikal suggest to reduce sdesc sniffing

[Riev]

• All of the changes Majikal suggest to reduce sdesc sniffing

While I disagree with the OP's desire to remove the way as it's far too useful in providing roleplay and interaction, the reason we're here. It would make some timezones nearly unplayable as well.

As to the way removing RP possibilities. I find that players rely on secret-keeping ways that are too effective and in essence, against the spirit of the game. Amazing plothooks get whispered about at tables in wagons with both parties barriered and the conversation isn't exactly top secret to begin with. Is it really such a big deal that merchant A dislikes merchant B, no, but it does provide a place for plenty of people to insert themselves into the friction if the word gets out. Some conversations never see the say/talk command and are only wayed, effectively reducing those that can capture that information to a single class. The most mundane of talking points that carry the smallest opportunity of friction and intrigue are vaulted up to the extreme and that has become more common as players have become "better" at the game.

What were the suggestions Majikal made to reduce sdesc sniffing?

[Is Friday]

I've harped about this a few times so I'll just repost my comment from the last time this came up.
-------------------------

I've always hoped to see the psionic system shifted so that whenever you contact someone they always see your short description.

The tressy-tressed aide contacts your mind.

Pros:
Decreases the practice of sdesc fishing
Decreases the practice of online-checking, I expect this is often used to sway your ic judgement. (If that Sun Runner is online I'm not riding by their camp etc.)
The meta-practice becomes just as telling of the one checking as it does the one who got checked.
Increases reply speed, you can pick up the phone to talk back early!


Cons:
None that I can tell.

[triste]

My 2 recommendations to improve the Way and its function in game: (improve plots)

• Reduce PCs to 1-2 psionic message an IC day. This will change the dynamic and force people to only use it for "important" stuff or some agreement to meet in person.
• All of the changes Majikal suggest to reduce sdesc sniffing

+1 to way sniffing changes. Mixed feels on the way limit idea. I like the limited number of ways idea, but I hear all these people wailing in the background "What about iso roles! Don't punish iso roles! Don't change the Way!" They are also right. So let's just slap this restriction on Allanak or some such. If people act twinky and ridiculous and work around this by waying right outside the city, it's just more pickins for the Crimson Wind! OP is satisfied and iso players are satisfied.

[Riev]

I would definitely be a fan of that one change. Let people who are more sneaky in the way contact you without revealing who they are. When a "foreign presence" contacts your mind, some shit is about to go down and/or they failed their Hide-In-The-Way skill.

[mansa]

..
There are solutions to this. One suggestion was to put some low tier psionic classes into rotation. I don't think it's as good because I think anyone should be allowed to be a spy. Not just humans with a particular subclass.

Another one is to just give mundanes a way of intercepting psionic messages. Though every time I suggest this, someone loses their shit because it doesn't jam with the silly psionicist helpfile.

I like these ideas.

[Kyviantre]

I find it useful to be able to have one conversation via Way and one in person.  There are only so many hours I can play, and sometimes you just have to do two things at once because that is how playtimes work.

Iso role again, I can't 'just arrange to meet up', I'm not in Allanak.  The Way is my roleplay for some hours of my playtime because I don't see any other players in person.  I can't go to them, and I don't feel comfortable demanding people drop what they are doing and come amuse me, so the Way is a compromise with keeping things moving between the times when we can get some in-person RP going.  If I can only Way twice a day, I may as well not play Armageddon, because I wouldn't be getting any roleplay at all!

Things that might be useful for people in a city are all well and good, but it is an arrogantly narrow way to base your fixes based purely on one specific subset of the player base.  Frustrates me.

As for sdescs in the Way, don't care either way.  I don't try to sniff people, and don't care if they want to be petty and sniff me.  But I'm apparently one of those mutants who speaks and says "oh sorry wrong mind" if I get the wrong person, which I guess is...rare?  I've made some good IG friends on various characters with people who have done that with me over the years...which trained me to do it too - accidental mis-Waying getting you more people in your rolodex should be more heavily touted as a way to find people to chitchat to!  But the short answer is...I am fine with it as it is, I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to sdesc sniff me...but if people think it is a problem, then sure, fix it.

Just leave my ability to Way and RP with PCs alone...the NPCs and wildlife don't chat back enough for me to survive on that alone!

[triste]

Things that might be useful for people in a city are all well and good, but it is an arrogantly narrow way to base your fixes based purely on one specific subset of the player base.  Frustrates me.

Full agree, which is why my comment about adding the Kasix stables was, eh, a popular topic.

WRT the rest - keep the way, full agree from the start, but add other psionics. I brought it up first here on the thread in question and other peeps like it seems! More content is always better than less; narrowly scoped content only makes some parties happy but more ways to intercept ways looks like something that can make all parties happy [at least people seem excited about it].

[AdamBlue]

I'd only agree with removing the way if literacy became common and you were able to mail letters to people or hire couriers both regular and coded. Otherwise, no thanks. Too hard to communicate with people you need to, becomes a horrifying headache to organize things.

[LindseyBalboa]

the Way is pretty thematically ingrained into the concept here. and writing is pretty thematically ingrained as against the concept for most people. if anything I think more people should get random psionic powers, since psionic ability is so rampant, which would also combat the fact that I can sit in a room as a character and talk to someone in the same room without fear of generally being eavesdropped. I think it's more thematic if there are random chances - low, but not crazy low - of people having minor psionic extra abilities.

[Pale Horse]

I am trying to remember past arguments and discussions had concerning limiting the Way.

I do not remember the full details but I was inclined towards one suggestion which described limiting the Way by "region."  If you were within X-many rooms of someone, you could reliably contact someone within that distance.  If you were within a "region," such as Vrun Driath, you had a fair chance of contacting someone in the same region but the cost was higher both for contacting and sending messages.  If you were trying to send a message from one end of the Known to the other, the cost was severe and may only work to send one or two messages before you needed to rest to regain your focus.

Granted, this makes "finding" someone a bit easier.  You spent X amount of stun points contacting someone, they must, therefore, be close to me.  I spent X amount of stun points and it took X attempts to find their mind, they must be very far, etc.  This could also open up more roles.  Messanger, for example.  Someone with high wisdom and constitution could act as a focal point for Way sending.  House, Merchant, whatever, sponsored.  Send me your Ways and they will be passed along to your intended.  No questions asked, privacy "ensured."

Another idea was that the crazy environment of the Known its self could limit or enhance the Way.  The Silt Sea is nuts, maybe have it be extremely hard to get any message in and out of Red Storm due to the proximity of the silt.  Sandstorms aren't just a physical hazard, due to the fact that the Known is basically a magically made "nuclear wasteland," storms also mess with the Unseen Way, making message sending unreliable while tremendous storms blot the land.  The moons could be psionically linked.  One moon is waxing?  Things are normal.  Two moons are up?  Might be easier to send a message.  All three in the sky?  Malik can finally Way Talia in Tuluk from Allanak to arrange their secret smash-time under the noses of Lady Borsail and Lord Tennreshi, but oh, look, his message was so effective that everyone within two rooms of Talia also heard the plan.  Talia should have been wearing obsidian jewelry.  Everyone knows that obsidian helps focus the Way, after all.  Sure, its past the third day of the second month and wearing too much obsidian is just not done but sometimes we have to suffer.