Removing Content From the Game

[Cind]

I don't have a character currently and haven't for about eight months, but I'm interested in knowing if anything besides these went missing from the game as content since then, since staff seem interested, with our shrinking numbers, in making the game world small enough to connect more people together.

Tuluk
Fairly reasonable access to the Grey Forest
the Tan Muark
the Anyar
the Benjari
Being able to play gith, mantis, and halflings
the Red Fangs
full guild witches
full guild sorcerers
Reliability of being able to tell cures apart
Bread in Morin's (not sure about this one)
Red Storm East
a broken fighting system
sailing on the silt sea so broken, that taking a group with templars requires staff intervention
what I assume is a rule that says that templars don't patrol the Gaj anymore
being able to hit on someone via the Way
the rape ban in totality, including original bios and mentions of the idea itself
the fact that classic witch guilds required so much boring training in both magick and sparring
that most people weren't willing to put up with it
being half-drunk causing people to fall down when attempting to leave the room
the only clay source outside of Tuluk being surrounded by spiders and far away from everything
being able to easily poison wild water sources, to the point where one must bring a barrel and empty the source itself before more water trickles into it
templar's aides, despite being the most protected nonwitches, dying off like rabbits
the inability to reach master level in drawing without the aid of the Atrium
the fact that two powerful non-human npcs constantly guard the way into the nonhuman section of the rinth from -everyone-
Vennant, the bartender of the Gaj, being able to tell people about a honey-mead deal where the supplies for such ended several thousand years ago
templars not being able to have a damn social life outside of their own assistants
witches being unable to reasonably interact in a positive way with nonwitches
legal crime in Tuluk apparently requiring a tattoo that needs to be covered up anyway
the closing of extra taverns with low populations (mostly, I'm thinking of the tribal tavern in Tuluk)
objects sinking into the silt shore to be lost, unless you remember to (get sword)
animal parts sinking into the silt sea when the creature being fought is killed
skimmers, tents being so unreasonably priced, no one should be able to afford them on an hour of play a day
an extremely awkward system of prices, where high-value items made cheaply either cost more to buy the raw materials of (like sandcloth in Storm) or the final value of the item is usually slashed
an extremely low wage in Houses compared to world prices in return for plentiful food, water and protection, as long as you're happy with repetitive work and low player counts within the House itself
a social system in place where criminals are never treated as useful at any time, but something that must be destroyed as soon as possible. although, perhaps, this may be why Tuluk is closed, as legal crime isn't an idea that is familiar to us in the real world.

[Cind]

I forgot the fact that casting a single spell as a witch currently, from the subguilds available, automatically makes it clear to people who understand the magick system which type of witch you are.

But, don't worry--- games have a lot of bugs, and our pretty simple to edit game, compared to those currently being released to the mainstream, can't be much different.

A game as old as ours from sometime in the 1980's was probably bound to lose popularity and active player numbers, no matter how good the game was itself.

[rinthrat]

What is the point of this post?

Some things in that list are contant that's still there/playable. Most of the list has nothing to do with content being removed and is just perceived problems with the game, but have nothing to do with removing content or changes in the last decade.

[Delirium]

the game didn't lose me due to any of that stuff.

The game lost me because
1) toxic players are permitted to remain vocal parts of the community and to play characters in positions of power
2) the time sink is difficult to balance with a healthy rl and against adult obligations
3) lack of an overarching direction and storyline
4) expectation that large plots come from those least able to puch them through, aka players
5) the devolution as a result of most plots into high-school social bickering
6) general negativity and people not "keeping it IG", see also #1, toxic players.

[triste]

the game didn't lose me due to any of that stuff.

The game lost me because
1) toxic players are permitted to remain vocal parts of the community and to play characters in positions of power
2) the time sink is difficult to balance with a healthy rl and against adult obligations
3) lack of an overarching direction and storyline
4) expectation that large plots come from those least able to puch them through, aka players
5) the devolution as a result of most plots into high-school social bickering
6) general negativity and people not "keeping it IG", see also #1, toxic players.

Basically all of this. I have a big problem with the word toxic because it is so vague, but I think I learned what it meant when I saw people dogpiling on Bebop in her most recent thread, because I saw people doing to her what people do to me here all the time.

And yes, the time commitment precludes people from having a well balanced life, I wish there were more mechanics to support busy players, such as allowing you to send way messages to offline players, etc. I find if you are busy, you of course miss plots, etc. I find if you are busy, you can pick a fight with a Byn Runner and suddenly get PKed even if your character is a warlord ICly because OOCly the player of the Bynner is unemployed* and twink sparring every moment while you are triple employed and can log in at most 2 hrs a day.

People have been getting on their high horse about including the most players: your post here represents why a lot of great players get pushed out, thank you.

_{* Not hating on the unemployed, I have friends who are legally speaking so they can focus on other persuits and that is the right life for some people. But ideally the game can reward people with different lifestyles.}

[triste]

And yes, when you see people abuse the rules, and other people, and they still get roles and favors? That sucks.

[Greve]

3) lack of an overarching direction and storyline
4) expectation that large plots come from those least able to puch them through, aka players
5) the devolution as a result of most plots into high-school social bickering

These are the most important points. It shouldn't matter so much that this or that tribe is closed, this coded feature isn't quite as robust as it could be, or this particular area no longer serves much of a purpose. Armageddon has always been a game where content was periodically removed. Blackmoon, Blackwing, Conclave, Nenyuk, playable gith and mantis and halflings, the list goes on--loads of things were discontinued in the past, that's really not a recent trend nor necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. But what's different between then and now is that a lot of awesome stuff used to happen that changed the way the game was played. History was written on an annual basis, either directly by players or with their close involvement. This made it fine that something was occasionally removed or retconned or turned into something different.

When people talk about the great things that have happened throughout the history of this game, the things that are brought up are almost exclusively from a decade ago and prior. In recent years, so little has happened worth remembering or participating in. The game's story stands still year after year, and this has a very unhealthy influence on people's roleplaying habits. The miserable snoozefest of today's Armageddon is not just a product of the fact that some people do some of their play on the phone while at work, or some players becoming parents and managers. It's because nothing has happened in ages that can hold a candle to things like the Copper War or the various occupations and liberations of start locations, much of which had players at the center of it. Or just the big villainous sorcerers and whatnot who never seem to crop up anymore, whose names are etched in legends to this day. It's like the game faceplanted after the End of Days Reborn Bonanza and never got back up again.

In the absence of big, awesome stuff to care about, we sit and pick apart every little grievance we have with the game. This is why people have been asking for Tuluk back. The playerbase is desperate for something that once again makes it feel like it's worth the incredible time investment that it is to be a serious player of this game. Stories that draw people in, changes that offer new ways to play the game instead of just new coded features. Opportunities to make a mark and do things that haven't already been done a thousand times. This has gone missing. In its place we have players who run around looking for any possible excuse to PK, and players who just sit in their apartments and estates and clan compounds because there was nothing to see the last two hundred times they bothered to go outside. This really has to change, and players do not have the tools and freedom with which to do so on their own.

[Dresan]

the game didn't lose me due to any of that stuff.

The game lost me because
1) toxic players are permitted to remain vocal parts of the community and to play characters in positions of power
2) the time sink is difficult to balance with a healthy rl and against adult obligations
3) lack of an overarching direction and storyline
4) expectation that large plots come from those least able to puch them through, aka players
5) the devolution as a result of most plots into high-school social bickering
6) general negativity and people not "keeping it IG", see also #1, toxic players.

Wow. A perfect list and the reason why I am going to have a hard time making another character in this game, especially the ones in bold.

In addition, with the decrease in population there seem to be a greater number of level three karma PCs and special application PC  that have nothing better to do then to squeeze that poor grebber out of existence.  If you are playing a mundane or even karma 1 role it is very hard to try to achieve anything mundane that doesn't eventually have you dealing with stuff that should be rare.

Not saying these roles should not exist but there has got to be something better for them to do then harass a smaller population of mundanes even if it is on behalf of sponsored roles.

If the game doesn't get a better way to utilize these roles, then these roles will either need to be clamped down on or the game world will need to change to make the roles even less appealing.

[triste]

3) lack of an overarching direction and storyline
4) expectation that large plots come from those least able to puch them through, aka players
5) the devolution as a result of most plots into high-school social bickering

These are the most important points. It shouldn't matter so much that this or that tribe is closed, this coded feature isn't quite as robust as it could be, or this particular area no longer serves much of a purpose. Armageddon has always been a game where content was periodically removed. Blackmoon, Blackwing, Conclave, Nenyuk, playable gith and mantis and halflings, the list goes on--loads of things were discontinued in the past, that's really not a recent trend nor necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. But what's different between then and now is that a lot of awesome stuff used to happen that changed the way the game was played. History was written on an annual basis, either directly by players or with their close involvement. This made it fine that something was occasionally removed or retconned or turned into something different.

When people talk about the great things that have happened throughout the history of this game, the things that are brought up are almost exclusively from a decade ago and prior. In recent years, so little has happened worth remembering or participating in. The game's story stands still year after year, and this has a very unhealthy influence on people's roleplaying habits. The miserable snoozefest of today's Armageddon is not just a product of the fact that some people do some of their play on the phone while at work, or some players becoming parents and managers. It's because nothing has happened in ages that can hold a candle to things like the Copper War or the various occupations and liberations of start locations, much of which had players at the center of it. Or just the big villainous sorcerers and whatnot who never seem to crop up anymore, whose names are etched in legends to this day. It's like the game faceplanted after the End of Days Reborn Bonanza and never got back up again.

In the absence of big, awesome stuff to care about, we sit and pick apart every little grievance we have with the game. This is why people have been asking for Tuluk back. The playerbase is desperate for something that once again makes it feel like it's worth the incredible time investment that it is to be a serious player of this game. Stories that draw people in, changes that offer new ways to play the game instead of just new coded features. Opportunities to make a mark and do things that haven't already been done a thousand times. This has gone missing. In its place we have players who run around looking for any possible excuse to PK, and players who just sit in their apartments and estates and clan compounds because there was nothing to see the last two hundred times they bothered to go outside. This really has to change, and players do not have the tools and freedom with which to do so on their own.

Your argument is well thought out here because it recognizes that it is a two way street with players and staff here: personally, I don't blame staff for losing trust in players to move plots. I have seen a lot of these leaders [plenty of whom I am sure fit the criteria of Delirium's first point] do absolutely insane, self-indulgent, plot-destroying shit. For all we know, the staff HAS put effort into sweeping plots, but the ball gets dropped at one point or another because of some silly mistake by the player. Nobles fighting at the front-lines of a conflict in the 'rinth, resulting in that Noble getting fatally shot; Templars hiring people from Red Storm who are dressed in all crimson, and that crimson-clad Red Stormer then proceeds to kill all of the Templar's concubines; a new sponsored desert-elf role wandering out of Blackwing without direction sense properly trained up, falling in a pit of gith, and dying an hour after creation.

These are all incidents based off of recent events, but not directly modeled after recent events due to rules of course. In every case, incidents like this amount in hours to weeks of staff support thrown down the drain. All because a noble wanted to have fun and shoot a bow, all because a Templar thought his new Red Storm hire looked hot wearing all that crimson and could be another concubine, all because a new outdoors character was eager to get outdoors play, as is human nature. Human nature can fuck up plots; some players have stated they haven't seen a good Templar in years, but I prefer to have a less negative take and say it is incredibly difficult to delay OOC gratification for the sake of IC continuity. Those players who have managed to achieve something great IG are great and the staff who supported them were great; I cannot assume players are failing now because only the "staff is bad," nor can we assume it's only because "players are bad" per the anecdotes I provided. But I felt a need to provide those anonymized anecdotes as a counterpoint. It's a two way street between players and staff with regard to plots by definition.

[triste]

For those of you who were in Luirs for the event, I owe you an apology.

Compliments of both the crash and a wild linking issue, some of that event went truly sideways and spoiled a portion of the planned fun. While the initial event is clearly not what we aimed for, and I'm sorry for it, you can be assured each of you will see more to come from the cause of it all, the aftermath, and individual story hooks to carry on from.

Thank you all who did attend and played your hearts out for the parts that didn't get chewed up on us all, and apologies once more for the parts that did.

This is a post from Shabago, when the game crashed because he was loading a TON OF AWESOME SHIT for a COMPLETELY AWESOME RPT that was largely driven by players and staff. Is is either the fault of the staff or the players that the game straight up crashed and the plot got redirected? No, of course not.

It's quite possible this is the "historic thing" that was going to happen. But a crash happened. But now critics can continue to wail that "Nothing big has happened in the last 10 years." IDK, I just wanted to show some gratitude for all the effort staff AND players do make. I kudos staff and players when they allow big things to happen. How about we have a proactive mindset about this for a change. I am proud of some of the plots myself and my friends have pulled off. Yes, maybe both sides can do better -- so let's do better as players, first of all. If I have any recommendation for how staff can meet us halfway it is to introduce a self-sustaining source of conflict by either tweaking some things in Red Storm or reopening Tuluk as others have suggested here.

[mansa]

If I had my way,

I'd attack the Chronology page on the website, and update it.
And then I'd start a new policy of publishing events that have occurred in game every quarter - from a 3 month ago point-of-view.


In this new 'mansa quartre' policy, I would publish existing character's details of nobles and merchant family members and what they've done.  I'd probably include something about high-level politics of Luir's Outpost, Red Storm, Allanak, and Tuluk.  I would attempt to include some details about the tribal families to prove they are a viable storytelling experience, but I am not sure how to include them in the Ongoing Stories of Zalanthas^tm newsletter.


In addition to publishing stories,  I'd probably hire someone to redo our community created content section of the website, to make it more user friendly, to allow people to share direct links to artwork, and to turn back on user submissions.

I think this would be beneficial to showing some sort of storylines that are currently happening in game, and that aren't being shared... and I think it would allow players to know that what they do in game actually matters.

[triste]

If I had my way,

I'd attack the Chronology page on the website, and update it.
And then I'd start a new policy of publishing events that have occurred in game every quarter - from a 3 month ago point-of-view.


In this new 'mansa quartre' policy, I would publish existing character's details of nobles and merchant family members and what they've done.  I'd probably include something about high-level politics of Luir's Outpost, Red Storm, Allanak, and Tuluk.  I would attempt to include some details about the tribal families to prove they are a viable storytelling experience, but I am not sure how to include them in the Ongoing Stories of Zalanthas^tm newsletter.


In addition to publishing stories,  I'd probably hire someone to redo our community created content section of the website, to make it more user friendly, to allow people to share direct links to artwork, and to turn back on user submissions.

I think this would be beneficial to showing some sort of storylines that are currently happening in game, and that aren't being shared... and I think it would allow players to know that what they do in game actually matters.

Yeah, I am in favor of this to address Delirium's points 3-5, as long as people don't start debating fairness in historical highlight selection the way they debate fairness in sponsored role selection, otherwise it will unfortunately worsen Delirium's point 1 and 6.

[triste]

All in and all in favor of a revamp of the history page at minimum. When I asked staff if a recent event was worthy of being on the history page though, they flatly said no. So it's a good idea, but when I mentioned that idea about two months ago in reference to adding an event [the PBRPT], they flatly said no. So staff apparently contemplate what is worthy of being listed on the history page, and when I asked, the answer was nothing recently has been worthy.

Relevant datapoint.

[triste]

the game didn't lose me due to any of that stuff.

The game lost me because
1) toxic players are permitted to remain vocal parts of the community and to play characters in positions of power
2) the time sink is difficult to balance with a healthy rl and against adult obligations
3) lack of an overarching direction and storyline
4) expectation that large plots come from those least able to puch them through, aka players
5) the devolution as a result of most plots into high-school social bickering
6) general negativity and people not "keeping it IG", see also #1, toxic players.

Thanks again for having the guts to say this.

[Cind]

House Oash and the Byn tended to be able to hit their player cap, which was 20 players that could actually join, I believe? This is why, if you didn't know this, that if that many bynners and Oasis were walking around in Allanak, they would have to refuse new inductees, if they had hit their clanned player cap of 20. This doesn't make sense for either House, both of which are the only ones I remember even hitting their cap sometimes, due to reasons unique to the structure of each House. House Oash openly hired gemmed witches, and I remember playing there fondly. I am a simple person who doesn't want much more than to play the game and have fun, and I tend to go for simple living, which in this case was grebbing for spell ingredients that the House sorely needed, while being fed and watered by the House, and being able to have a bed and stay safely inside, so long as I didn't scare mundanes with my magick, although one could cast in the bedroom. Oddly enough, the kitchen had no fire object, meaning you couldn't cook. However, a newbie I know proved to me that in other rooms, meat could be turned into cooked meat without a fire object there.

The Byn always needs more people. Anyone who has played around bynners (meaning everyone) knows this. The more, the better. Because no matter how much you train or deserve to win with how damn high your fighting skills are, something completely random is going to kill you. Sarges are not necessarily stronger or smarter than even the dumbest ass runner, but they are chosen because they can lead, and instill discipline in even (black the worst elven runners, at least to the point where the elves, with how prideful they are naturally as people, will attempt to make it look like they are following the sarge's orders. black)

[Dresan]

I have mixed feeling on the size of certain popular clans.

Not sure what if any cap exists but much as I would love to see players spread out a bit more with different roles or just end up having to survive as an indie, I fear being unable to play in the clan the player set their hearts into will probably make them just stop playing for a while rather then challenging themselves against adversity.

This is because it is my opinion that the game or staff never really acknowledges or rewards players who find themselves in a hard spot and crawl back up slowly. That means that most people will roll something new or just not play when things do not go their way. 

I think staff pulling back some of the benefits afforded to these clans by just joining them could help a bit more rather than just capping it. For example if you are really interested in having a nice safe compound to hang around in, sleep and store your things in, perhaps a merchant clan is a better fit.  With not all clans providing anywhere near that amount of protection, benefits and safety for their initial members.

[Is Friday]

the game didn't lose me due to any of that stuff.

The game lost me because
1) toxic players are permitted to remain vocal parts of the community and to play characters in positions of power
2) the time sink is difficult to balance with a healthy rl and against adult obligations
3) lack of an overarching direction and storyline
4) expectation that large plots come from those least able to puch them through, aka players
5) the devolution as a result of most plots into high-school social bickering
6) general negativity and people not "keeping it IG", see also #1, toxic players.

Cosigned.

[HeeBeeGB]

the game didn't lose me due to any of that stuff.

The game lost me because
1) toxic players are permitted to remain vocal parts of the community and to play characters in positions of power
2) the time sink is difficult to balance with a healthy rl and against adult obligations
3) lack of an overarching direction and storyline
4) expectation that large plots come from those least able to puch them through, aka players
5) the devolution as a result of most plots into high-school social bickering
6) general negativity and people not "keeping it IG", see also #1, toxic players.

I think this is the biggest issue for me. When I was younger, I didn't mind playing Armageddon after (or before, egads) I finished homework. Then, I didn't mind playing instead of going to a frat party, or while I was doing something else half-assedly. As I get older, have a career, have a wife, and hope to have kids soon, the window for playing Armageddon shrinks. With that shrinking window comes shrinking opportunity in the game, which for a RPI, totally makes sense. I feel part of the angst and struggle for players is accepting that what the game demands of our time, we just can't give, so we expect or ask for those time-windows to shrink (increase skills when you start playing, lower glass ceilings to make the time sink more worth it, and so on). I don't think that's a bad ask, but it's more acknowledging both sides of the same coin.

I probably enjoy sponsored / leadership roles the most, but often struggle to find the time to make them really shine. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the less time you put into the role, the less you get out of it, and the more you struggle to stay in the loop, not to mention affect the loop. I do find fluctuations in my schedule, where I do have a lot of free time at night (ahem, particularly now), so then I apply for these roles, only to find some health issue I or a family member snaps me back to RL, and I suddenly have no time to play at all. Life is just more complex when you're older. I do think Arm is a fun way to blow off steam, but I often find myself playing console games when I have free time, because I can jump into the action, and turn off the game when it's late, or when someone needs me. That might be a healthier relationship with video games, I'm not sure.

[HeeBeeGB]

a bunch of stuff that isn't about removing content from the game

Hi there --

It sounds like you haven't played the game in a while. A lot of the things you mentioned here are either not true, kind of not true, or outright false
Examples:

Reliability of being able to tell cures apart - Those that can tell cures apart can tell cures apart. There are still 'old cures' around in the game too.

the inability to reach master level in drawing without the aid of the Atrium - Speculative. You can reach master level with a teacher, not necessarily through the Atrium, AFAIK. This also isn't removing content.

the fact that two powerful non-human npcs constantly guard the way into the nonhuman section of the rinth from -everyone- -- Not sure what you mean here. Half giant soldiers? Elves, guarding against non-elves into the Elven Eastside?

Vennant, the bartender of the Gaj, being able to tell people about a honey-mead deal where the supplies for such ended several thousand years ago - This is simply an old rumor, hard-coded to the NPC, and obviously hasn't been changed in a while. Similarly, Vennant is like 7000 years old, so maybe he just tells stories from back in his day. There is a bit of suspense of disbelief here. Worthy of 'idea'ing in game.

templars not being able to have a damn social life outside of their own assistants -- Uh...False? Templars socialize with Nobles, even Commoners, like all the time.

witches being unable to reasonably interact in a positive way with nonwitches - Also not necessarily true, though also in line with documentation. Mages aren't easily trusted by non-mages, or even by mages across their elements. It isn't easy for them to be chummy, or non-mages to be chummy with them. As intended.

legal crime in Tuluk apparently requiring a tattoo that needs to be covered up anyway - Not really relevant with Tuluk being closed, but fits in with the documentation of Tuluk. Having the Tattoo was a free pass if you were questioned about a crime, or implicated in one. Simply had to show it to soldiers or templars and they would let you walk away.

In general, these just seem to be complaints, not drawing attention to things removed from the game.

Others are vague, and I'm not sure what you mean (Ex. Broken Fighting System).

Still -- If you feel like playing the game again to see what's up, you should.

[Cind]

(Ex. Broken Fighting System).

I'm curious at to what might have been fixed about the fighting system I know for a fact had a core bug or two, perhaps just one, because I actually haven't played in a long time, and my wife wants to try the fighting side of things for her next character.

[Dresan]

There is nothing wrong with the fighting system as far as I can tell. Its pretty robust with varied combat strategies across the differences classes which have their pros and cons.

High endurance+ defense+ability to run the fuck away at a moments notice can pretty much keep you alive through most random and not so random things.

This doesn't mean you cannot be killed but someone would need to invest some time, effort and RP to kill you. It would not exactly be random.

The only possible "issue" that one could have is that eventually you get so good that you stop learning outside of fighting nasty things in the corners of the game. But if you join the byn that won't be too big of a problem.

[HeeBeeGB]

(Ex. Broken Fighting System).

I'm curious at to what might have been fixed about the fighting system I know for a fact had a core bug or two, perhaps just one, because I actually haven't played in a long time, and my wife wants to try the fighting side of things for her next character.

If you can clarify what you think is broken about it, we might better address if those bugs or issues as you perceive them were fixed. Combat seems to be pretty fine, from what I can tell, and I mostly play combat oriented PCs.

[Cind]

Well... it took me a while to figure out a reply for this one. I'm a pretty traditional girl in my own culture, and have never really been interested enough in fighting to figure out why people can't seem to get past journeyman in a particular weapons skill. Weapons skills are, for some reason, the most necessary fighting skill? That's why I thought everyone picked one weapons skill and just worked alone on that one skill with regards to the type of weapon they had.

I don't know, for real though this time, if anything is broken with offense and defense, because in a game that relies so heavy on fighting, certain (half-giants, muls, dwarves people, should be able to kill something fairly strong with their bare hands instead of every single -person- carrying a weapon around. Especially if the strongest races need to carry around weapons the size of humans. That one doesn't make sense to me, but then again, I am a very traditional woman, for my own culture, a simple sister wife, without much of a brain in her head, for fighting.

[Saellyn]

Weapon skills move up just fine. The reason it slows down, at a point, is probably due to not training the skill properly, or just expecting a skill like that to grow quickly.

Granted, on my own experience, the weapon skills certainly grow much faster than they used to. Probably because they no longer branch universally superior weapon skill types.



Which brings me to another thing that was removed from player access (at least, currently, without Gladiators), and that is advanced weaponskills.

Perhaps, rather than having advanced weaponskills, just take this weapons and reformat them to work in the current skill system? Is that something staff is willing to do?

[gotdamnmiracle]

I think that's already done, like razors and such.

[Riev]

From what I remember of their excuses/reasons why, advanced weapons were removed because not a lot of people got to that level in the first place, they were clunky and had attributes that didn't fit with the vision of current leadership, and (speculation) encouraged twinky behavior because "I really want an advanced weapon".

Frankly, as someone who had advanced weapons numerous times, each time the big struggle was more FINDING a weapon. I had to special order knives from Salarr once, but then someone checked into why I even had knife weapons and they didn't like my twinky behavior. That character never once killed anyone, or as aggressive in any way.

[triste]

Huge disclaimer on this as I haven't seen the code for it and have been discouraged from looking, but I heard advanced weapons were removed because your defense against weapons is in part based on your skill with that weapon. Therefore, being in a position of defending against someone with high razor weapon skill was often fatal because lacking the skill you'd have a hard time defending. This lead to upsetting PvP outcomes. This is also why some players are wary of guilds like Stalker that lack slashing and chopping. Again, big disclaimer with this.

[Riev]

Huge disclaimer on this as I haven't seen the code for it and have been discouraged from looking, but I heard advanced weapons were removed because your defense against weapons is in part based on your skill with that weapon. Therefore, being in a position of defending against someone with high razor weapon skill was often fatal because lacking the skill you'd have a hard time defending. This lead to upsetting PvP outcomes. This is also why some players are wary of guilds like Stalker that lack slashing and chopping. Again, big disclaimer with this.

While what you say has truth, the actual stated reasons did not include that factor. I remember very distinctly some words about not many in-game items that support the skills, old code like razors that didn't fit the concept, and it set up goalposts for people that were actually rarely seen.

[triste]

Huge disclaimer on this as I haven't seen the code for it and have been discouraged from looking, but I heard advanced weapons were removed because your defense against weapons is in part based on your skill with that weapon. Therefore, being in a position of defending against someone with high razor weapon skill was often fatal because lacking the skill you'd have a hard time defending. This lead to upsetting PvP outcomes. This is also why some players are wary of guilds like Stalker that lack slashing and chopping. Again, big disclaimer with this.

While what you say has truth, the actual stated reasons did not include that factor. I remember very distinctly some words about not many in-game items that support the skills, old code like razors that didn't fit the concept, and it set up goalposts for people that were actually rarely seen.

All valid reasons. And yes, branching any skill from a weapon skill is a pain, I don't think I have ever branched sap from bludgeoning on an enforcer either. If that was considered an issue then, well, it is still an issue at large elsewhere [which I wouldn't mind seeing tweaked].

[Pew Pew]

I also feel like Fighters should have the advanced weapon skills, and the other heavies have one or two.

[Dresan]

In terms of defense, axes and swords have similar results against classes that don't know them like miscreants and stalkers so it can't be a reason why advanced weapons were removed.

Having played a twinky warrior in my time, advanced weapons weren't too big of a loss, at least it isn't in today's meta.

[triste]

Not opposed to seeing it back if it makes the late game spicier for people who have enough time to pour on a character like that. And agreed I don't think it would be a huge game changer given "today's meta" as you say, the mundane warrior needs any advantage they can get right now.

[Dresan]

Fighters wielding swords or axes are still pretty savage against anything but magickers or karma races.

You already experienced that enforcers pretty much already fit into that late game class for the person who has time.

[Lizzie]

I also feel like Fighters should have the advanced weapon skills, and the other heavies have one or two.

That would mean the only way fighters would be able to actually progress beyond a moderate skill level in their advanced weapon skills, would be to spar against other fighters.

[Riev]

I also feel like Fighters should have the advanced weapon skills, and the other heavies have one or two.

That would mean the only way fighters would be able to actually progress beyond a moderate skill level in their advanced weapon skills, would be to spar against other fighters.

Or since there have been code updates not requiring MASTERY in a skill before it branches, fighters could get the advanced weapon skills earlier than others. Perhaps at a level just past the plateau of normal weapon skills, but not something so monumentally difficult as 70 skill.

Removing the branched weapon skills really removed goal posts altogether, and they were replaced with Riposte and Hack. Hack being good for dwarves and half-giants (or other low-agility characters) as it gives you another auto attack. Riposte being trash because its only effective against one opponent, and typically fighters are 'tanks' and have defenses to fight 2+ opponents.

[Lizzie]

I also feel like Fighters should have the advanced weapon skills, and the other heavies have one or two.

That would mean the only way fighters would be able to actually progress beyond a moderate skill level in their advanced weapon skills, would be to spar against other fighters.

Or since there have been code updates not requiring MASTERY in a skill before it branches, fighters could get the advanced weapon skills earlier than others. Perhaps at a level just past the plateau of normal weapon skills, but not something so monumentally difficult as 70 skill.

Removing the branched weapon skills really removed goal posts altogether, and they were replaced with Riposte and Hack. Hack being good for dwarves and half-giants (or other low-agility characters) as it gives you another auto attack. Riposte being trash because its only effective against one opponent, and typically fighters are 'tanks' and have defenses to fight 2+ opponents.

If you only have one opponent, riposte is BRUTAL.

[Hauwke]

Riposte is crazy good if you have a PC with low agility, dwarf or HG for instance.

[Doublepalli]

Everyone forgets about the dual-wielding axe dwarf that hacks for 4 attacks in a single round...

[Gaare]

the game didn't lose me due to any of that stuff.

The game lost me because
1) toxic players are permitted to remain vocal parts of the community and to play characters in positions of power
2) the time sink is difficult to balance with a healthy rl and against adult obligations
3) lack of an overarching direction and storyline
4) expectation that large plots come from those least able to puch them through, aka players
5) the devolution as a result of most plots into high-school social bickering
6) general negativity and people not "keeping it IG", see also #1, toxic players.

I come and go.. This is a great game after all. Even I got simply bored after playing for years, I still play maybe 200 hours per year with having great time. But with communication getting easier, social media, raise of class injustice... blah blah.. people are more tend to become attention-seekers. Especially in a game like ARM; some players are dying for a bit of staff attention. When staff gives some attention, lot screams of favoritism while hiding behind free speech rights and authoritarianism as if this game community is goverment or some life depending organization.

A bar with a desert view is probably enough for a bunch of players to have fun if they want to.

This is still a good community suffering same problems with almost all old online communities. I believe game can't be more fun with old players sitting and speak same things(as far as I know we speak similiar topics for 20 years) endlessly. I hope to see more ads, or campaigns for new players. Energy drives communities. If staff wishes to arrange some campaign for ads, I am sure we can collect some sids.

But in short, this is still a great game. There is no other game in my life I spent so much time and had fun. You rock.

[Harmless]

I really respect the rare posts of longtime players like Gaare above who thankfully come back to us. That, is the kind of attitude I wish we all could have. Chill and just enjoy the good aspects of this game and try not to turn everything into a huge negative debate. +1 to you friend.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I really respect the rare posts of longtime players like Gaare above who thankfully come back to us. That, is the kind of attitude I wish we all could have. Chill and just enjoy the good aspects of this game and try not to turn everything into a huge negative debate. +1 to you friend.

I mean, sure. But I think contained in some of these stupid threads are actually cogent and fair arguments that staff can't seem to find an acceptable answer to. Is dealing with these glut of wild-ass threads more or less of a hassle than figuring out some plan of action for places like tuluk and the magickal Elements in game? I guess reading a manifesto about #noconsent (lol) is the path of least resistance. It's a shame fair concerns and criticisms get perverted by truly dumb ideas.

I certainly agree, however, that all these problems would immediately disappear if we had like 20 more players on average in the game. I like the ad idea. I came here from an ad on the Spoonyexperiment website eight or so years ago, so I know they work.

I wonder if the insane shit recently on the gdb is more a result of the age of your average Arm player. Dementia is a real concern, especially for those who already feel isolated or alienated from the world in which they live.

[Brokkr]

But I think contained in some of these stupid threads are actually cogent and fair arguments that staff can't seem to find an acceptable answer to. Is dealing with these glut of wild-ass threads more or less of a hassle than figuring out some plan of action for places like tuluk and the magickal Elements in game?

Tuluk is closed for now and main guild sorcerers and elementalists are not returning.  Those may not be the outcomes that some players want, but those are acceptable answers.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Ah. I was unclear. I meant a plan of action to justify these changes and make them still make sense in the world at large. Brokkr, I think more glaring would be the history page being devoid of anything recent.

When I say acceptable I suppose I mean acceptable to the majority of players. None of the things you mention were/are effectively justified in the world. "Because I say so" is an unacceptable answer to many people despite your relationship to the direction of the game. Unless you want to be arguing with folks on threads like this, I guess.

We have found that the retcon method is a failure. You don't see any threads bemoaning the way dragon thralls were handled because I assume they made sense in game and had a story surrounding them when they disappeared, yet tuluk still exists with a poor method of closing and next to no presence in the game world. Not effectively representing this content in the gameworld has also been a contributing factor to the criticisms here. If I were a new player I doubt I'd know they existed in much the same way I didn't care to learn all the noble houses that are poorly represented.

The unacceptable answer isn't "it's not coming back", but it's "it exists but we have no plans to do anything with it at this time". Or better yet "Just ignore the city state to the North, please", which is how it feels. And Tuluk is only the biggest example of this. The desert elf tribes and nonplayable races (save for gith maybe) appear to be mostly forgotten.

[triste]

When I say acceptable I suppose I mean acceptable to the majority of players.

How does one figure out what the majority of players want? 🤔

I would say the way to get what you want here is voting, but [excepting people with reason] I have been told here "voting is stupid."

[gotdamnmiracle]

When I say acceptable I suppose I mean acceptable to the majority of players.

How does one figure out what the majority of players want? 🤔

I would say the way to get what you want here is voting, but [excepting people with reason] I have been told here "voting is stupid."

I'm not interested in trying to figure that out at this point, Triste. How many threads have we had complaining about these exact same things since they were removed. If you want to go back and tally people's opinions from years ago then please do so. Also , I agree that staff can do as they want. Normally it's not an issue. Only in these cases is it an issue because they aren't pivoting to a dynamic representation of any of these elements. They could simply remove them entirely and that'd probably do more to fix it than trying to argue on these threads. Less to manage too. Make it all go the way of the halfling.

[triste]

When I say acceptable I suppose I mean acceptable to the majority of players.

How does one figure out what the majority of players want? 🤔

I would say the way to get what you want here is voting, but [excepting people with reason] I have been told here "voting is stupid."

I'm not interested in trying to figure that out at this point, Triste. How many threads have we had complaining about these exact same things since they were removed. If you want to go back and tally people's opinions from years ago then please do so. Also , I agree that staff can do as they want. Normally it's not an issue. Only in these cases is it an issue because they aren't pivoting to a dynamic representation of any of these elements. They could simply remove them entirely and that'd probably do more to fix it than trying to argue on these threads. Less to manage too. Make it all go the way of the halfling.

The point is simple. You want staff to honor what the majority of players want. For more than 2000 years humans have done it with voting. Voting also doesn't have to relate directly to action and can merely serve as a survey to inform staff and their decision making.

So, TLDR: Voting was invented millennia ago to get what you want, no need to reinvent the wheel.

I doubt anyone here can invent a better mechanism.

[gotdamnmiracle]

No. Staff have already stated this isn't a democracy. That's their choice.

Let's also have a vote regarding those businesses who won't bake cakes for LGBTQ people to see if the majority of people would like them to bake cakes for everyone or not. When they realize that more people want them too they'll certainly do it, right?

That simply isn't a requirement for any group other than those advertising themselves as a democracy. In America private businesses are generally not democratic. The workers DO NOT own the factories here.

That being said, staff should comply unless they want to keep dealing with threads like this that continue to get more desperate and bizarre, ala #noconcent. Or take a hardline stance and fully remove these elements from the game completely with a fireball or comet or something.

[triste]

When I say acceptable I suppose I mean acceptable to the majority of players.

This is what you stated you wanted and I told you how to get it. Now you espouse new beliefs that it is acceptable to have content removed even if the majority of players do not want that. It is fine for you to espouse contradictory beliefs.

[gotdamnmiracle]

When I say acceptable I suppose I mean acceptable to the majority of players.

This is what you stated you wanted and I told you how to get it. Now you espouse new beliefs that it is acceptable to have content removed even if the majority of players do not want that. It is fine for you to espouse contradictory beliefs.

Sounds like if I were to cast my vote it wouldn't be representative of how I feel after I've thought about it a bit more. Or maybe that my point is more nuanced than a checkbox with three options.

Reread my post. I think you're missing something. If you're really interested PM me. This shit's gumming up the discussion.

[triste]

Not on the previous topic, but I am a solution oriented person. This post will not contain that scary vote word.

Mechanism: Before staff enforce a change, they open a thread proposing the change and get feedback before acting on it.

Bring solutions as much as you like to bring problems.

[Malken]

You vote by deciding to play the game or not, it's pretty easy.

You decided that we can't play in Tuluk anymore? Okay, that's fine, but I also haven't played in 3+ years because of it.

If you really can't find any other hobbies than Armageddon then you probably don't have much say in how the game is being run.

If no one played Armageddon anymore then you might get some of the changes you wished for, but as long as you still play and mostly just shout on the GDB, you don't have much say power in how the game is being run.

[triste]

You vote by deciding to play the game or not, it's pretty easy.

You decided that we can't play in Tuluk anymore? Okay, that's fine, but I also haven't played in 3+ years because of it.

If you really can't find any other hobbies than Armageddon then you probably don't have much say in how the game is being run.

If no one played Armageddon anymore then you might get some of the changes you wished for, but as long as you still play and mostly just shout on the GDB, you don't have much say power in how the game is being run.

Yes, this is the status quo to some. But is it ideal? I do not believe so. Our player count is low, etc. It sucks.

I have been too busy to play in more than a week. Would be a shame if my absence were confused for some vindictive gamer boycott.

To others, the opportunity to give feedback -- even if we are too busy ballin to play -- would be welcomed.

[Malken]

Yes, this is the status quo to some. But is it ideal? I do not believe so. Our player count is low, etc. It sucks.

I have been too busy to play in more than a week. Would be a shame if my absence were confused for some vindictive gamer boycott.

To others, the opportunity to give feedback -- even if we are too busy ballin to play -- would be welcomed.

Who says you can't offer your feedback?

Problem is that no one just offers their feedback and then leave it at that.

Most thread goes something like -

"I think that removing Tuluk was a bad idea because it's one less place for players to play in. Thank you. Goodbye."

[2 days later]

"Black Lives Matter!" "Tuluk sucks!" "Tuluk = RP'ed racism!" "I have an ancestor who was a slave and I'm okay with RP'ed racism!"

[triste]

Most thread goes something like -
. . .
"Black Lives Matter!" "Tuluk sucks!" "Tuluk = RP'ed racism!" "I have an ancestor who was a slave and I'm okay with RP'ed racism!"

This discourse wasn't brought up for days -- until you just did. How convenient that you can prove your own point. You can also fix the problem by ceasing to be the problem.

[triste]

But yes, back to finding solutions. If anyone has productive ideas besides Malken's "Don't play," and messy threads, feel free to offer them. Given that threads often pop up around the creation of new features, my proposal is to formalize feature discussion in the hope of keeping things on topic, building consensus, and allowing communication without locking threads / censoring folk. Gotdamnmiracle and OP are right for wanting acceptable -- AKA player supported -- decisions from staff.

[Malken]

But yes, back to finding solutions. If anyone has productive ideas besides Malken's "Don't play," and messy threads, feel free to offer them. Given that threads often pop up around the creation of new features, my proposal is to formalize feature discussion in the hope of keeping things on topic, building consensus, and allowing communication without locking threads / censoring folk. Gotdamnmiracle and OP are right for wanting acceptable -- AKA player supported -- decisions from staff.

Like this?

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55741.0.html

[triste]

Not on the previous topic, but I am a solution oriented person. This post will not contain that scary vote word.

Mechanism: Before staff enforce a change, they open a thread proposing the change and get feedback before acting on it.

Bring solutions as much as you like to bring problems.

Like this, Malken. I made my proposal as clear as possible but I am happy to repeat it for your edification.

In simple english, prior to making a change, staff ask players for their feedback prior to enforcing.

But thank you also for linking that thread. It exists in large part because I made the irrefutable point that our feedback is always reactionary. They listened to me. So glad people like the thread my well reasoned debate helped to create.

[Fredd]

From what I remember of their excuses/reasons why, advanced weapons were removed because not a lot of people got to that level in the first place, they were clunky and had attributes that didn't fit with the vision of current leadership, and (speculation) encouraged twinky behavior because "I really want an advanced weapon".

Frankly, as someone who had advanced weapons numerous times, each time the big struggle was more FINDING a weapon. I had to special order knives from Salarr once, but then someone checked into why I even had knife weapons and they didn't like my twinky behavior. That character never once killed anyone, or as aggressive in any way.

Are the skills completely removed from the game, or is there some super long lived warrior sitting in a corner with their trident giggling that they are the last person alive that can use it?

[Riev]

From what I remember of their excuses/reasons why, advanced weapons were removed because not a lot of people got to that level in the first place, they were clunky and had attributes that didn't fit with the vision of current leadership, and (speculation) encouraged twinky behavior because "I really want an advanced weapon".

Frankly, as someone who had advanced weapons numerous times, each time the big struggle was more FINDING a weapon. I had to special order knives from Salarr once, but then someone checked into why I even had knife weapons and they didn't like my twinky behavior. That character never once killed anyone, or as aggressive in any way.

Are the skills completely removed from the game, or is there some super long lived warrior sitting in a corner with their trident giggling that they are the last person alive that can use it?

I'm pretty sure at this point, no long-lived warrior exists with these skills, or access to them as a PC.
They were switched to be used for Gladiators-only, during their long stint in Allanak. You could apply to be a Gladiator with a Polearm specialty, if you wanted it.

The skills 'exist', but they are out of reach for PCs.

[Lotion]

I also haven't played in 3+ years because of it.

Why are you here?

[Malken]

I also haven't played in 3+ years because of it.

Why are you here?

Why do people read National Enquirer?

[triste]

I also haven't played in 3+ years because of it.

Why are you here?

Why do people read National Enquirer?

Former players are free to post here, and we are free to debate their ideas [or counterproductive snark].