Reflections

[Cabooze]

The fact that this conversation is even happening is bonkers.

No, consent rules are not changing. Deal with it.

Are you sure? Do you have the power to enforce that? Are you a staffer?

My father once told me not to let my mouth write a check my ass can't cash.

It's not happening.

Unless you're staff, please stop trolling the thread.

[tapas]

It's not happening.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Well for one thing, it's not a democracy.

It's pretty clear a huge chunk of the world is just going insane, so thankfully the server's fate is left in the care of very few who know a thing or two.

edit: somewhat related:

[Ol 55]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM-e46xdcUo

[PointyBoi]

I am with 7dv and the no consent crew.

Requiring consent for graphic torture is not going to keep me from having staff animate npcs trying to solicit their underlings for sex.
Requiring consent is not going to keep me from having someone use "whore" as a slur on my generally attractive female character and threatening to use sex they never had to ruin them.
Requiring consent is not going to keep elves that have never even spoken to my characters from ruining their reputation and slandering them to an entire city by saying they fucked them.

All of these things are things that I as a female player have had to deal with. All of these things are deeply problematic.
None of these things are even fucking touched on by the consent policies but have caused infinitely more problems than anything which required consent.

The problem is the meta. It's the culture. It's not whether or not you pretend like forcing me to break character to say it's okay for my (actual) whore character to fuck yours. I would prefer not to need to break character. I would prefer it if other people kept in mind what used to be a pretty solid fucking line about female equality, sexuality, and slut shaming in the world. I still don't know who played the elf, but the fact that I've had it happen with 3 different elf pcs since 2015 and in my entire time playing since 2008 I have never had a character have sex with even one elf...none of these are touched on by the pretense that consent is for female players.

Tell you what IS for female players- listening to their feedback. Not breaking the world rules to use the same shitty tactics that dudes irl use to try and marginalize and shit on their characters IC. I consented to the world being generally shitty but in a specific setting. I did not consent to people breaking with that setting to use sexuality to fuck with my pcs in ways that the consent rules don't actually touch on. Further? Just don't animate an npc superior of anyone and try to solicit sex from them please. Regardless of anyone's sex or if it results in a ftb. And further, when it happens that they reject it if you choose to, don't use female-coded irl slang and derogatory insults to try and shut them down or flex on them. This is why we can't have nice things.

/my2sids

[Yam]

Can the no consent crew please stop posting these weird thinly veiled rape fetish request threads. Thanks!

[Saellyn]

Drawing our intentions down to "rape fetish request threads" is a marginalization of the actual intentions of the #NoConsent movement. More information will follow. Stay tuned.

[Yam]

lol ok

[Yam]

On the other hand you could just not post the rape squad manifesto. That's an option you can take.

[PointyBoi]

Me:

Tell you what IS for female players- listening to their feedback.

Guy not 5 minutes later:

stop posting these weird thinly veiled rape fetish request threads.

I'm not saying it doesn't take 10 minutes to demonstrate it's a culture problem but...

[Heade]

Can the no consent crew please stop posting these weird thinly veiled rape fetish request threads. Thanks!

This kind of reductive comment is exactly why the #NoConsent hashtag was born. Instead of addressing a the full issue and discussing it like an adult, you try to minimize it down to an ad hominem attack.

[Cabooze]

On the other hand you could just not post the rape squad manifesto. That's an option you can take.

I'm sorry for taking it this low: But are you even capable of comprehending the very NOT complicated concept being discussed? Just stop yourself before you make an even greater ass of yourself. You are contributing nothing to the discussion.

If staff could do some janitorial service, that'd be great if this shit could get wiped up.

[Yam]

I can comprehend some disingenuous chuds hiding behind a veneer of civility while trying to make #NoConsent a thing. Please stop, rape squad.

[Is Friday]

I am with 7dv and the no consent crew.

Requiring consent for graphic torture is not going to keep me from having staff animate npcs trying to solicit their underlings for sex.
Requiring consent is not going to keep me from having someone use "whore" as a slur on my generally attractive female character and threatening to use sex they never had to ruin them.
Requiring consent is not going to keep elves that have never even spoken to my characters from ruining their reputation and slandering them to an entire city by saying they fucked them.

All of these things are things that I as a female player have had to deal with. All of these things are deeply problematic.
None of these things are even fucking touched on by the consent policies but have caused infinitely more problems than anything which required consent.

The problem is the meta. It's the culture. It's not whether or not you pretend like forcing me to break character to say it's okay for my (actual) whore character to fuck yours. I would prefer not to need to break character. I would prefer it if other people kept in mind what used to be a pretty solid fucking line about female equality, sexuality, and slut shaming in the world. I still don't know who played the elf, but the fact that I've had it happen with 3 different elf pcs since 2015 and in my entire time playing since 2008 I have never had a character have sex with even one elf...none of these are touched on by the pretense that consent is for female players.

Tell you what IS for female players- listening to their feedback. Not breaking the world rules to use the same shitty tactics that dudes irl use to try and marginalize and shit on their characters IC. I consented to the world being generally shitty but in a specific setting. I did not consent to people breaking with that setting to use sexuality to fuck with my pcs in ways that the consent rules don't actually touch on. Further? Just don't animate an npc superior of anyone and try to solicit sex from them please. Regardless of anyone's sex or if it results in a ftb. And further, when it happens that they reject it if you choose to, don't use female-coded irl slang and derogatory insults to try and shut them down or flex on them. This is why we can't have nice things.

/my2sids

I can relate and empathize with a lot of your feelings and annoyances with the sexism experienced in game. I very rarely play male PCs. The issues you describe deserve more attention. Playing a female leader is especially difficult when I feel my PCs are marginalized routinely via slutshaming or other devices of a similar shade.

I do not, however, agree with the #noconsent movement. I think it's a step backward for worthwhile storytelling and speaks toward the more base or juvenile desires of others power fantasies. I do not think it would resolve any of the issues you speak of -- only increase them.

[Rathustra]

Staff are likely never going to remove the consent rules. Clarification and clearer wording has been discussed - as has making it clear about the content of the game when people create accounts to play here.

edit: Was a bit more firmer with the "no" - of course I might be wrong, but who knows.

[Hauwke]

On the other hand you could just not post the rape squad manifesto. That's an option you can take.

The movement isn't at all about rape, its about not needing to ask consent to shove nails into someones knuckles.

It's about not needing to ask anytime you take a shirt off.

It's about reapplying implied consent by playing an adult game.

It is not about bringing rape back, and it is not about any kind of fetish.

[Saellyn]

Staff are not currently considering removing the consent rules. Clarification and clearer wording has been discussed - as has making it clear about the content of the game when people create accounts to play here.

That's okay. We're just having a legitimate discussion about our position. We're hoping to continue to do so without being flamed/trolled repeatedly is all.

[Is Friday]

On the other hand you could just not post the rape squad manifesto. That's an option you can take.

It's about not needing to ask anytime you take a shirt off.

FTR that doesn't require consent. Nudity does not require consent. Describing nudity in a sexual manner does.

#FTB

[Cabooze]

Staff are likely never going to remove the consent rules. Clarification and clearer wording has been discussed - as has making it clear about the content of the game when people create accounts to play here.

edit: Was a bit more firmer with the "no" - of course I might be wrong, but who knows.

Thank you for posting this.

[PointyBoi]

Respect, IsFriday. I don't think we need to agree about the consent/no consent aspect to agree about the other. Thanks for the thoughtful exchange on the subject. It is appreciated. Same to you Rathustra, for not letting the conversation continue in a vacuum but approaching the response in a considerate and polite way. Much appreciated.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

The No Consent thing is a very complicated issue.

Yes, everyone consents to a very harsh, crapsack world, but this is the first conflicting problem. The thing is, this world is more than just harsh.. it's extremely brutal and graphic in its own right, where consent rules are never invoked at all. This is a world where slavery is rampant in the two major city states and there is such fierce racism that often times peaceful sentient beings are slaughtered for no other reason than breathing. Our characters can also suffer a myriad of painful and horrible deaths, from starvation and disfiguring diseases, to nasty poisons that make your blood boil or cause you to puke your guts out, to getting mauled and gored by wild animals or butchered up by weapons. None of these things require some extra form of OOC consent.

And yet... the conflicting and confusing thing is that the same players who initially signed up for all this don't like when seemingly milder things happen to their characters...

[Is Friday]

Respect, IsFriday. I don't think we need to agree about the consent/no consent aspect to agree about the other. Thanks for the thoughtful exchange on the subject. It is appreciated. Same to you Rathustra, for not letting the conversation continue in a vacuum but approaching the response in a considerate and polite way. Much appreciated.

So before the rape rule was implemented, I think I (as a very young player, early 20s?) got into an altercation on one of my male PCs which led to non-consensual sex (rape.) Later on when I played more female PCs I saw how much the sexism permeated the game, to include a lot of rape being threatened or used against my PC. One time I was played a PC whom was enslaved against their will and then raped by a soldier in the militia barracks. Even after the rapist was killed by the Templar for touching their property, it effectively ruined the PC for me.

Another time I had a noble who was "married down" into a lesser House for failing at a plot. Her husband was not someone she liked or wanted anything to do with. The contract required children. Staff gave me the option to "fade" the intercourse and just produce the children virtually, which was nice of them, I suppose. In the end: My PC was brutally murdered for not fulfilling the marriage contract; i.e. not agreeing to sex that was forced upon them. This happened in 2014 and I still do not enjoy thinking about it or dredging up these memories.

I don't think rape as a plot device or its implementation back into the game adds a lot of content. There is plenty of "horrible crimes" to commit -- but in our modern society there is something visceral and intimate about rape which produces a net negative for the roleplaying environment.

[Black Flag]

Ugh!

[AdamBlue]

Ugh!

The only meaningless quote in the thread I wholeheartedly agree with. I don't think the whole 'consent' thing is what people fucking think it is. You've taken it out of context and assumed it meant people are going to get raped. Rape is against the fucking rules. What the OP wants is that consent is a given upon logging in. So if you get tortured, you get tortured. If you do the do, you do the do. However, you can -still- go 'ooc Can we fade this?'
It just means that if you're in the middle of a scene where you're about to get your butt pounded by your elven husbando (in a clearly consensual way mind you) you don't gotta do 'ooc consent?' or if you're about to get your fingers cut off one by one by Templar Zenigater as he questions you about how many times you got butt-pounded by your elven-husbando who was also the master thief Loopin the Second, you don't gotta do 'ooc consent for torture??'

Lesser uses of the OOC command the better, for keeping dude's immersions, I feel you.

[DesertT]

Staff are likely never going to remove the consent rules. Clarification and clearer wording has been discussed - as has making it clear about the content of the game when people create accounts to play here.

edit: Was a bit more firmer with the "no" - of course I might be wrong, but who knows.