Reflections

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Armageddon is not the real world. I don't want it to be the real world.

While I agree with RL insults and racial slurs being removed in place of locale-appropriate insults and slurs, I have no desire to see world-appropriate racial prejudices removed from the game. Consent is bad enough: when I started playing this game, "consent" was assumed because you were warned about the adult nature of this game before you logged in.

Then people started being offended by things they had been warned about before they logged in. And we changed, and we had multiple layers of consent and content-watering-down. And maybe that was alright, but I can't pretend I like it.

We're in the midst of a moment in RL where we might manage to effect some real change in the way some racial things are handled, and I pray to God we don't waste it. I am happy that issues are being addressed in RL. I do not want that to happen to Armageddon, though, when it comes to softening the world even more.

I know people are soft these days, and more culturally aware and sensitive and such, and that's great, but Armageddon isn't supposed to reflect the real world. Armageddon is supposed to be a NC-17 horror show, not a PG-13 fright-flick.

Incidentally, I say this as a 41 year-old black man.

[triste]

👏 well 👏 said 👏

[Heade]

Totally agree.

Also, I miss you 7DV. You should pop into discord voice with us if you see us in there.

[Pew Pew]

Yes! THANK YOU for saying this.

NC-17, not PG-13. Consent is given upon account and character generation.

[Cabooze]

#No"OOC Consent?"required

Thank you for voicing this.

[mansa]

In my opinion,

ArmageddonMUD is a social game where all players roleplay fantasy characters in a harsh desert world setting. 

There's written and unwritten rules that each player understands when we play out the character's lives in the game:
do not cheat,
do not use out-of-character knowledge to benefit your character in game,
do not use knowledge from your previous characters to benefit your current chatacter,
do not hold grudges from situations that happened to your previous character,
do not tell other players which characters you play,
do not use the GDB conversations to influence your reaction to characters in game,

...But it's still fundamentally a social game, and we share the stories of the characters we play with our fellow players.



I think that because we play the game with others, we should consider other players fundamental enjoyment of the game, and as a collective group make decisions of what sort of stories we want to tell together.



And on a serious note, the hashtag no consent required is fucking creepy.

[Is Friday]

I think there is a serious lack of self-awareness or maturity amongst those players who are pushing for a "no consent" policy. There are other games which espouse such rules and they are exactly as you imagine them to be, given such an extreme environment. No, we have consent rules so that we can enjoy the largest population possible while still catering to a niche and "hardcore" roleplaying experience. Coded actions do not require consent.

Putting another player in a situation in which they must roleplay something they personally feel uncomfortable with is just going to drive away more players from an already declining population. It's inconsiderate and power hungry in the least appealing way for women, in particular.

[seidhr]

Please don't use enormous font in threads.  Thanks.

[triste]

Agreed seidhr.

To be clear, OP never said no consent. They said consent was understood to be given on account creation because the game was understood to be NC-17. So OP has stated that he has always been pro-consent, but in a clear/simple/direct way, not a political/annoying/noisy way.

[Is Friday]

Agreed seidhr.

To be clear, OP never said no consent. They said consent was understood to be given on account creation because the game was understood to be NC-17. So OP has stated that he has always been pro-consent, but in a clear/simple/direct way, not a political/annoying/noisy way.

I'm pretty sure my comment and mansa's about "no consent" is referring to cabooze and others' posts, not OP -- to clarify.

[triste]

Agreed seidhr.

To be clear, OP never said no consent. They said consent was understood to be given on account creation because the game was understood to be NC-17. So OP has stated that he has always been pro-consent, but in a clear/simple/direct way, not a political/annoying/noisy way.

I'm pretty sure my comment and mansa's about "no consent" is referring to cabooze and others' posts, not OP -- to clarify.

Yup -- just distancing good, sane people who agree with OP from that.

[Saellyn]

Attacking our sanity without understanding our position is pretty unnecessary. Don't do that.

[triste]

Attacking our sanity without understanding our position is pretty unnecessary. Don't do that.

Do you prefer IsFriday's blanket "these people are immature?"

[Saellyn]

The idea of #NoConsent is not to force people to roleplay scenes, necessarily, but to have to deal with the consequences of living and playing in a very harsh, unforgiving world. That's all it is.

[triste]

The idea of #NoConsent is not to force people to roleplay scenes, necessarily, but to have to deal with the consequences of living and playing in a very harsh, unforgiving world. That's all it is.

As a victim of rape who has every reason to scream "Oh no, rape is scary, I don't want to see it in a game," I will say #NoConsent is agreeable and possible if you always allow a FTB. Anyone uncomfortable with something extreme without code implications should be allowed to ask for an FTB or quit OOC if they need to, done and done. And ask for explicit consent once per account creation [and when the policy starts for existing accounts]. Then the #NoConsent idea works.

I fully agree with OP that I dislike watering down content in his words, or censoring content in my words. But it's sometimes necessary to protect people. Do not restrict the thing from happening in a way that hurts plotlines, but allow people to FTB if they need.

[triste]

And last note is #NoConsent is a disgusting hashtag because it's too reductive and easy to misread. It's causing people to freak out. Consider better marketing, the hashtag I prefer is the one implied by the slogan of the game #MurderCorruptionBetrayal. Typically R rated, not PG-13 rated topics.

[tapas]

Attacking our sanity without understanding our position is pretty unnecessary. Don't do that.

Yes. Taking such a poor position will have us question your sanity.

[Heade]

And last note is #NoConsent is a disgusting hashtag because it's too reductive and easy to misread. It's causing people to freak out. Consider better marketing, the hashtag I prefer is the one implied by the slogan of the game #MurderCorruptionBetrayal. Typically R rated, not PG-13 rated topics.

The point of the hashtag is to get people to take notice of it, because when you try to have a civil discussion about the topics that lead to the #NoConsent, the opposition to those thoughtful and civil discussions is quite often reductive and inflammatory in response, sidetracking the discussion by using Ad Hominem attacks and character assassination instead of addressing the civilly discussed topic.

#NoConsent is a simple way to fire back at reductive counterattacks at thoughtful and civil discourse, and I feel like its reductive nature has done more to bring attention to these issues and opinions than any wall of text post that could have taken its place.

It has lead to hours of civil discussion and debate in discord voice, and if we get to a place where we can maturely discuss the issues surrounding the #NoConcent meme on the GDB without reductive backlash, then that will be a 100% victory for #NoConsent, even with consent in the game.

[Cabooze]

@triste and isfriday, if you really want to attack my character and question my sanity or self awareness, you should first reflect on your own. Being so volatile in your reactions to something you find obscene doesn't speak well for your own character, so don't come at me sideways because I decided to voice my opinion.

I'd like to reduce the need in order to perform tasks which break my immersion. If suddenly I need to: "ooc consent for x?", I lose a lot of my immersion. I believe if consent was implied upon logging in, and you are the one which does not want to participate, you should be the one that OOCs that you would like the scene to fade to black, or simply remove yourself from the situation by moving rooms.

Hence my support of the OP. Hence my very specific #No"OOC Consent?"required. You're the one that decided to read what I said in the most harmful light possible.

Attacking our sanity without understanding our position is pretty unnecessary. Don't do that.

Yes. Taking such a poor position will have us question your sanity.

No, your position is poor, because my opinion dictates as much. Oh, wait, I should stop using your logic.

[triste]

Cabooze, Saellyn, whoever else -- I agree with you in every regard but the hashtag #NoConsent, which is just gross.

OP's premise is by knowing the game is NOT PG-13, and is for adults, we just ask for consent once on account creation. Bebop also wanted to make Armageddon 18+. I didn't agree with her at first, but after seeing how shit has devolved I now agree with Bebop and 7DV's stance here.

But for the love of kitty cats come up with a better hashtag people who want to get laid consensually can get behind.

[tapas]

The fact that this conversation is even happening is bonkers.

No, consent rules are not changing. Deal with it.

[Heade]

The fact that this conversation is even happening is bonkers.

No, consent rules are not changing. Deal with it.

Are you sure? Do you have the power to enforce that? Are you a staffer?

My father once told me not to let my mouth write a check my ass can't cash.

[tapas]

The fact that this conversation is even happening is bonkers.

No, consent rules are not changing. Deal with it.

Are you sure? Do you have the power to enforce that? Are you a staffer?

My father once told me not to let my mouth write a check my ass can't cash.

It's not happening.

[Heade]

The fact that this conversation is even happening is bonkers.

No, consent rules are not changing. Deal with it.

Are you sure? Do you have the power to enforce that? Are you a staffer?

My father once told me not to let my mouth write a check my ass can't cash.

It's not happening.

How do you know? Maybe it is.

[triste]

The fact that this conversation is even happening is bonkers.

No, consent rules are not changing. Deal with it.

Are you sure? Do you have the power to enforce that? Are you a staffer?

My father once told me not to let my mouth write a check my ass can't cash.

It's not happening.

How do you know? Maybe it is.

The longer a tautological argument goes on the more I giggle.

[Cabooze]

The fact that this conversation is even happening is bonkers.

No, consent rules are not changing. Deal with it.

Are you sure? Do you have the power to enforce that? Are you a staffer?

My father once told me not to let my mouth write a check my ass can't cash.

It's not happening.

Unless you're staff, please stop trolling the thread.

[tapas]

It's not happening.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

Well for one thing, it's not a democracy.

It's pretty clear a huge chunk of the world is just going insane, so thankfully the server's fate is left in the care of very few who know a thing or two.

edit: somewhat related:

[Ol 55]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM-e46xdcUo

[PointyBoi]

I am with 7dv and the no consent crew.

Requiring consent for graphic torture is not going to keep me from having staff animate npcs trying to solicit their underlings for sex.
Requiring consent is not going to keep me from having someone use "whore" as a slur on my generally attractive female character and threatening to use sex they never had to ruin them.
Requiring consent is not going to keep elves that have never even spoken to my characters from ruining their reputation and slandering them to an entire city by saying they fucked them.

All of these things are things that I as a female player have had to deal with. All of these things are deeply problematic.
None of these things are even fucking touched on by the consent policies but have caused infinitely more problems than anything which required consent.

The problem is the meta. It's the culture. It's not whether or not you pretend like forcing me to break character to say it's okay for my (actual) whore character to fuck yours. I would prefer not to need to break character. I would prefer it if other people kept in mind what used to be a pretty solid fucking line about female equality, sexuality, and slut shaming in the world. I still don't know who played the elf, but the fact that I've had it happen with 3 different elf pcs since 2015 and in my entire time playing since 2008 I have never had a character have sex with even one elf...none of these are touched on by the pretense that consent is for female players.

Tell you what IS for female players- listening to their feedback. Not breaking the world rules to use the same shitty tactics that dudes irl use to try and marginalize and shit on their characters IC. I consented to the world being generally shitty but in a specific setting. I did not consent to people breaking with that setting to use sexuality to fuck with my pcs in ways that the consent rules don't actually touch on. Further? Just don't animate an npc superior of anyone and try to solicit sex from them please. Regardless of anyone's sex or if it results in a ftb. And further, when it happens that they reject it if you choose to, don't use female-coded irl slang and derogatory insults to try and shut them down or flex on them. This is why we can't have nice things.

/my2sids

[Yam]

Can the no consent crew please stop posting these weird thinly veiled rape fetish request threads. Thanks!

[Saellyn]

Drawing our intentions down to "rape fetish request threads" is a marginalization of the actual intentions of the #NoConsent movement. More information will follow. Stay tuned.

[Yam]

lol ok

[Yam]

On the other hand you could just not post the rape squad manifesto. That's an option you can take.

[PointyBoi]

Me:

Tell you what IS for female players- listening to their feedback.

Guy not 5 minutes later:

stop posting these weird thinly veiled rape fetish request threads.

I'm not saying it doesn't take 10 minutes to demonstrate it's a culture problem but...

[Heade]

Can the no consent crew please stop posting these weird thinly veiled rape fetish request threads. Thanks!

This kind of reductive comment is exactly why the #NoConsent hashtag was born. Instead of addressing a the full issue and discussing it like an adult, you try to minimize it down to an ad hominem attack.

[Cabooze]

On the other hand you could just not post the rape squad manifesto. That's an option you can take.

I'm sorry for taking it this low: But are you even capable of comprehending the very NOT complicated concept being discussed? Just stop yourself before you make an even greater ass of yourself. You are contributing nothing to the discussion.

If staff could do some janitorial service, that'd be great if this shit could get wiped up.

[Yam]

I can comprehend some disingenuous chuds hiding behind a veneer of civility while trying to make #NoConsent a thing. Please stop, rape squad.

[Is Friday]

I am with 7dv and the no consent crew.

Requiring consent for graphic torture is not going to keep me from having staff animate npcs trying to solicit their underlings for sex.
Requiring consent is not going to keep me from having someone use "whore" as a slur on my generally attractive female character and threatening to use sex they never had to ruin them.
Requiring consent is not going to keep elves that have never even spoken to my characters from ruining their reputation and slandering them to an entire city by saying they fucked them.

All of these things are things that I as a female player have had to deal with. All of these things are deeply problematic.
None of these things are even fucking touched on by the consent policies but have caused infinitely more problems than anything which required consent.

The problem is the meta. It's the culture. It's not whether or not you pretend like forcing me to break character to say it's okay for my (actual) whore character to fuck yours. I would prefer not to need to break character. I would prefer it if other people kept in mind what used to be a pretty solid fucking line about female equality, sexuality, and slut shaming in the world. I still don't know who played the elf, but the fact that I've had it happen with 3 different elf pcs since 2015 and in my entire time playing since 2008 I have never had a character have sex with even one elf...none of these are touched on by the pretense that consent is for female players.

Tell you what IS for female players- listening to their feedback. Not breaking the world rules to use the same shitty tactics that dudes irl use to try and marginalize and shit on their characters IC. I consented to the world being generally shitty but in a specific setting. I did not consent to people breaking with that setting to use sexuality to fuck with my pcs in ways that the consent rules don't actually touch on. Further? Just don't animate an npc superior of anyone and try to solicit sex from them please. Regardless of anyone's sex or if it results in a ftb. And further, when it happens that they reject it if you choose to, don't use female-coded irl slang and derogatory insults to try and shut them down or flex on them. This is why we can't have nice things.

/my2sids

I can relate and empathize with a lot of your feelings and annoyances with the sexism experienced in game. I very rarely play male PCs. The issues you describe deserve more attention. Playing a female leader is especially difficult when I feel my PCs are marginalized routinely via slutshaming or other devices of a similar shade.

I do not, however, agree with the #noconsent movement. I think it's a step backward for worthwhile storytelling and speaks toward the more base or juvenile desires of others power fantasies. I do not think it would resolve any of the issues you speak of -- only increase them.

[Rathustra]

Staff are likely never going to remove the consent rules. Clarification and clearer wording has been discussed - as has making it clear about the content of the game when people create accounts to play here.

edit: Was a bit more firmer with the "no" - of course I might be wrong, but who knows.

[Hauwke]

On the other hand you could just not post the rape squad manifesto. That's an option you can take.

The movement isn't at all about rape, its about not needing to ask consent to shove nails into someones knuckles.

It's about not needing to ask anytime you take a shirt off.

It's about reapplying implied consent by playing an adult game.

It is not about bringing rape back, and it is not about any kind of fetish.

[Saellyn]

Staff are not currently considering removing the consent rules. Clarification and clearer wording has been discussed - as has making it clear about the content of the game when people create accounts to play here.

That's okay. We're just having a legitimate discussion about our position. We're hoping to continue to do so without being flamed/trolled repeatedly is all.

[Is Friday]

On the other hand you could just not post the rape squad manifesto. That's an option you can take.

It's about not needing to ask anytime you take a shirt off.

FTR that doesn't require consent. Nudity does not require consent. Describing nudity in a sexual manner does.

#FTB

[Cabooze]

Staff are likely never going to remove the consent rules. Clarification and clearer wording has been discussed - as has making it clear about the content of the game when people create accounts to play here.

edit: Was a bit more firmer with the "no" - of course I might be wrong, but who knows.

Thank you for posting this.

[PointyBoi]

Respect, IsFriday. I don't think we need to agree about the consent/no consent aspect to agree about the other. Thanks for the thoughtful exchange on the subject. It is appreciated. Same to you Rathustra, for not letting the conversation continue in a vacuum but approaching the response in a considerate and polite way. Much appreciated.

[NinjaFruitSalad]

The No Consent thing is a very complicated issue.

Yes, everyone consents to a very harsh, crapsack world, but this is the first conflicting problem. The thing is, this world is more than just harsh.. it's extremely brutal and graphic in its own right, where consent rules are never invoked at all. This is a world where slavery is rampant in the two major city states and there is such fierce racism that often times peaceful sentient beings are slaughtered for no other reason than breathing. Our characters can also suffer a myriad of painful and horrible deaths, from starvation and disfiguring diseases, to nasty poisons that make your blood boil or cause you to puke your guts out, to getting mauled and gored by wild animals or butchered up by weapons. None of these things require some extra form of OOC consent.

And yet... the conflicting and confusing thing is that the same players who initially signed up for all this don't like when seemingly milder things happen to their characters...

[Is Friday]

Respect, IsFriday. I don't think we need to agree about the consent/no consent aspect to agree about the other. Thanks for the thoughtful exchange on the subject. It is appreciated. Same to you Rathustra, for not letting the conversation continue in a vacuum but approaching the response in a considerate and polite way. Much appreciated.

So before the rape rule was implemented, I think I (as a very young player, early 20s?) got into an altercation on one of my male PCs which led to non-consensual sex (rape.) Later on when I played more female PCs I saw how much the sexism permeated the game, to include a lot of rape being threatened or used against my PC. One time I was played a PC whom was enslaved against their will and then raped by a soldier in the militia barracks. Even after the rapist was killed by the Templar for touching their property, it effectively ruined the PC for me.

Another time I had a noble who was "married down" into a lesser House for failing at a plot. Her husband was not someone she liked or wanted anything to do with. The contract required children. Staff gave me the option to "fade" the intercourse and just produce the children virtually, which was nice of them, I suppose. In the end: My PC was brutally murdered for not fulfilling the marriage contract; i.e. not agreeing to sex that was forced upon them. This happened in 2014 and I still do not enjoy thinking about it or dredging up these memories.

I don't think rape as a plot device or its implementation back into the game adds a lot of content. There is plenty of "horrible crimes" to commit -- but in our modern society there is something visceral and intimate about rape which produces a net negative for the roleplaying environment.

[Black Flag]

Ugh!

[AdamBlue]

Ugh!

The only meaningless quote in the thread I wholeheartedly agree with. I don't think the whole 'consent' thing is what people fucking think it is. You've taken it out of context and assumed it meant people are going to get raped. Rape is against the fucking rules. What the OP wants is that consent is a given upon logging in. So if you get tortured, you get tortured. If you do the do, you do the do. However, you can -still- go 'ooc Can we fade this?'
It just means that if you're in the middle of a scene where you're about to get your butt pounded by your elven husbando (in a clearly consensual way mind you) you don't gotta do 'ooc consent?' or if you're about to get your fingers cut off one by one by Templar Zenigater as he questions you about how many times you got butt-pounded by your elven-husbando who was also the master thief Loopin the Second, you don't gotta do 'ooc consent for torture??'

Lesser uses of the OOC command the better, for keeping dude's immersions, I feel you.

[DesertT]

Staff are likely never going to remove the consent rules. Clarification and clearer wording has been discussed - as has making it clear about the content of the game when people create accounts to play here.

edit: Was a bit more firmer with the "no" - of course I might be wrong, but who knows.

[Lotion]

The consent rule isn't meant to protect characters from the environment or each other, it's meant to protect players from each other. If you walk into the wild and get attacked by a Carru the messages that appear are very game-ish. The Carru hits you in the leg and it really hurts. A player who breaks your character's leg might send text onto your screen that you find very disturbing and would live a happier life if you never read it. Yes, players can fade to black but in a consent less arm players would have to preemptively fade to black in a situation where they thing they might be violated to avoid it in the first place. Fading to black after already having been violated means the damage has already been done.

[triste]

Me:

Tell you what IS for female players- listening to their feedback.

Guy not 5 minutes later:

stop posting these weird thinly veiled rape fetish request threads.

I'm not saying it doesn't take 10 minutes to demonstrate it's a culture problem but...

Right? Completely fucking nauseating.

I don't give two fucks about what some cisguy thinks about female characters getting raped, but I'm glad you shared your opinion. Yet even when you share opinions that pertain to your group some paternalist is going to condescend to decide what the "right" opinion for you to have is.

Dudes need to stop it. I almost quit because of this shit yet it keeps happening.

[Lizzie]

Armageddon is not the real world. I don't want it to be the real world.

While I agree with RL insults and racial slurs being removed in place of locale-appropriate insults and slurs, I have no desire to see world-appropriate racial prejudices removed from the game. Consent is bad enough: when I started playing this game, "consent" was assumed because you were warned about the adult nature of this game before you logged in.

Then people started being offended by things they had been warned about before they logged in. And we changed, and we had multiple layers of consent and content-watering-down. And maybe that was alright, but I can't pretend I like it.

We're in the midst of a moment in RL where we might manage to effect some real change in the way some racial things are handled, and I pray to God we don't waste it. I am happy that issues are being addressed in RL. I do not want that to happen to Armageddon, though, when it comes to softening the world even more.

I know people are soft these days, and more culturally aware and sensitive and such, and that's great, but Armageddon isn't supposed to reflect the real world. Armageddon is supposed to be a NC-17 horror show, not a PG-13 fright-flick.

Incidentally, I say this as a 41 year-old black man.

Thanks D. I've felt exactly as you do, but didn't feel comfortable posting since - I'm a 59-year-old white woman   All of this "sensitivity training" stuff is watering down the game and making it less attractive.

[triste]

Armageddon is not the real world. I don't want it to be the real world.

While I agree with RL insults and racial slurs being removed in place of locale-appropriate insults and slurs, I have no desire to see world-appropriate racial prejudices removed from the game. Consent is bad enough: when I started playing this game, "consent" was assumed because you were warned about the adult nature of this game before you logged in.

Then people started being offended by things they had been warned about before they logged in. And we changed, and we had multiple layers of consent and content-watering-down. And maybe that was alright, but I can't pretend I like it.

We're in the midst of a moment in RL where we might manage to effect some real change in the way some racial things are handled, and I pray to God we don't waste it. I am happy that issues are being addressed in RL. I do not want that to happen to Armageddon, though, when it comes to softening the world even more.

I know people are soft these days, and more culturally aware and sensitive and such, and that's great, but Armageddon isn't supposed to reflect the real world. Armageddon is supposed to be a NC-17 horror show, not a PG-13 fright-flick.

Incidentally, I say this as a 41 year-old black man.

Thanks D. I've felt exactly as you do, but didn't feel comfortable posting since - I'm a 59-year-old white woman   All of this "sensitivity training" stuff is watering down the game and making it less attractive.

Hell fucking yes, +1 to team Chicks-With-Backbone

[Lizzie]

Me:

Tell you what IS for female players- listening to their feedback.

Guy not 5 minutes later:

stop posting these weird thinly veiled rape fetish request threads.

I'm not saying it doesn't take 10 minutes to demonstrate it's a culture problem but...

Last time I checked, I was a female. I checked - just now. Yup, still female. I have never experienced what you're describing in your previous post. I play female characters - played 1 male, sucked at it, never tried again. Most of my characters are played as sexually ambivalent. Meaning - just not really interested one way or another. I have had characters in relationships, a couple of them were interesting, the rest not so much. But I still haven't ever experienced what you describe.

As a female who's been playing since 2002. So maybe you and I just play differently. Maybe your style of roleplay attracts the freaks and mine doesn't? I dunno what to tell ya. But it hasn't ever been a "thing" - not even when I played the kalan-breasted woman.

[triste]

I've seen what PointyBoi described happen sadly. But it kind of gets at OP and other people's points -- why do we arbitrarily require an awkward invocation of the ooc command for some horrible things but not others.

[Sidathe Silverdawn]

Not sure if I am allowed to post on this but here is my take: I wish bad behavior didn't have to have the OOC message to break the immersion - coming from someone who has had to ask how to do something with an OOC message. Pardon my hypocrisy.

I mostly wish the rules weren't broken. If the game states: rape is not to be RPed out, then it should be obvious what needs to happen. If there is a sexual scene that is playing out, and one participant objects, can't they then RP out of it? And if they can't then isn't the rape rule being broken?

I don't know. I guess I am naive.

[triste]

Not sure if I am allowed to post on this but here is my take: I wish bad behavior didn't have to have the OOC message to break the immersion - coming from someone who has had to ask how to do something with an OOC message. Pardon my hypocrisy.

I mostly wish the rules weren't broken. If the game states: rape is not to be RPed out, then it should be obvious what needs to happen. If there is a sexual scene that is playing out, and one participant objects, can't they then RP out of it? And if they can't then isn't the rape rule being broken?

I don't know. I guess I am naive.

Rape is a messy domain of law IRL, and it should have never been introduced as a concept we have rules around in Armageddon. Human beings can hardly litigate sensibly around rape IRL, so who on earth thought it was a good idea to litigate around rape in a game.

[triste]

Not sure if I am allowed to post on this but here is my take: I wish bad behavior didn't have to have the OOC message to break the immersion - coming from someone who has had to ask how to do something with an OOC message. Pardon my hypocrisy.

I mostly wish the rules weren't broken. If the game states: rape is not to be RPed out, then it should be obvious what needs to happen. If there is a sexual scene that is playing out, and one participant objects, can't they then RP out of it? And if they can't then isn't the rape rule being broken?

I don't know. I guess I am naive.

Rape is a messy domain of law IRL, and it should have never been introduced as a concept we have rules around in Armageddon. Human beings can hardly litigate sensibly around rape IRL, so who on earth thought it was a good idea to litigate around rape in a game.

I mean seriously, in what way, shape or form has this rule ever been a good idea.

I don't want volunteer game administrators to grep through my sexy-time logs to police them. A character threatened to rape mine a year and a half ago and I didn't report them because I don't fucking care. My OOC reaction to his threat was to laugh at how impotent it is. And again, I was molested as a kid and violently raped recently. You would think, according to the script, that I should be offended and need to flee to a safe space as soon as someone typed such horrible, wicked, outrageous, anti-christian words at me. But I am a grown ass adult who can separate fact from fiction and values freedom and privacy more than whatever volunteer admins grepping through sexy-time logs to police for "rape" gets me.

Again, I have god damn been pushed down and raped. I know what violation feels like. Staff policing sexy-time logs to enforce thought-police rules is violating. A lack of creepy sex-rules and a lack of thought-policing is not violating. Remove the creepy rules. I won't shame the first woman to prove me wrong, but I've literally not heard one woman say she's in favor of these creepy, paternalistic rules.

[Cendell]

The no rape rule came in due to a very shitty time in the game. It was everywhere, all the time. People weaponized it. People put player complaints in. People whined on the GDB. People quit, and people argued. It was a nightmare to be in any sort of authority position at the time. And it was exhausting to deal with, both in and out of game.

Staff banned it and everything about it as the solution.

And I still agree with that. I'm not wading into anything else here.

[triste]

This is often the story, "some players went overboard and now it's banned."

It's so strange for players who didn't witness that, and have simply come back to a whitewashed game (OP's lament).

You know what I would love as a rape victim? The opportunity to get quick revenge on my own against a rapist in game, or be able to fight off someone who tried to do that in a way I couldn't IRL.

I understand that "that time period" was bad, but every time I hear it come up I am just like, man, I wish I played then so I could have been a vigilante.

But now the content is just gone, redacted. Plots can't organically form. My dream of being the Zalanthan Lisbeth Salander will never be realized.

Ah well. At least movie producers and novelists aren't as cowardly as whoever imposed these rules on this game.

To reiterate OP's point -- fuck censorship and watering down. I don't want it, the majority of women speaking up here don't want it.

[Is Friday]

This is often the story, "some players went overboard and now it's banned."

It's so strange for players who didn't witness that, and have simply come back to a whitewashed game (OP's lament).

You know what I would love as a rape victim? The opportunity to get quick revenge on my own against a rapist in game, or be able to fight off someone who tried to do that in a way I couldn't IRL.

I understand that "that time period" was bad, but every time I hear it come up I am just like, man, I wish I played then so I could have been a vigilante.

But now the content is just gone, redacted. Whitewashing sucks so much.

There are other games where rape, snuff, murder/rape and fantasies like this can be fulfilled.

ArmageddonMUD is not one of them.

[triste]

This is often the story, "some players went overboard and now it's banned."

It's so strange for players who didn't witness that, and have simply come back to a whitewashed game (OP's lament).

You know what I would love as a rape victim? The opportunity to get quick revenge on my own against a rapist in game, or be able to fight off someone who tried to do that in a way I couldn't IRL.

I understand that "that time period" was bad, but every time I hear it come up I am just like, man, I wish I played then so I could have been a vigilante.

But now the content is just gone, redacted. Whitewashing sucks so much.

There are other games where rape, snuff, murder/rape and fantasies like this can be fulfilled.

ArmageddonMUD is not one of them.

Because ArmageddonMUD is no longer as raw and unique as it once was. It's not the intense, harsh wasteland it purports to be any longer. Well maybe it is, but off screen.

[Malken]

This thread will disappear faster than the karma on my account did.

[Is Friday]

This is often the story, "some players went overboard and now it's banned."

It's so strange for players who didn't witness that, and have simply come back to a whitewashed game (OP's lament).

You know what I would love as a rape victim? The opportunity to get quick revenge on my own against a rapist in game, or be able to fight off someone who tried to do that in a way I couldn't IRL.

I understand that "that time period" was bad, but every time I hear it come up I am just like, man, I wish I played then so I could have been a vigilante.

But now the content is just gone, redacted. Whitewashing sucks so much.

There are other games where rape, snuff, murder/rape and fantasies like this can be fulfilled.

ArmageddonMUD is not one of them.

Because ArmageddonMUD is no longer as raw and unique as it once was. It's not the intense, harsh wasteland it purports to be any longer. Well maybe it is, but off screen.

Correct. The game is meant to be enjoyed by a large number of players, not the incredibly niche players whose rape plots negatively infect the entire area that they play in.

[triste]

This thread will disappear faster than the karma on my account did.

One can hope. If I have to keep seeing males telling females how to feel about a crime that is mostly perpetrated by males against females I might scream.

[triste]

This is often the story, "some players went overboard and now it's banned."

It's so strange for players who didn't witness that, and have simply come back to a whitewashed game (OP's lament).

You know what I would love as a rape victim? The opportunity to get quick revenge on my own against a rapist in game, or be able to fight off someone who tried to do that in a way I couldn't IRL.

I understand that "that time period" was bad, but every time I hear it come up I am just like, man, I wish I played then so I could have been a vigilante.

But now the content is just gone, redacted. Whitewashing sucks so much.

There are other games where rape, snuff, murder/rape and fantasies like this can be fulfilled.

ArmageddonMUD is not one of them.

Because ArmageddonMUD is no longer as raw and unique as it once was. It's not the intense, harsh wasteland it purports to be any longer. Well maybe it is, but off screen.

Correct. The game is meant to be enjoyed by a large number of players, not the incredibly niche players whose rape plots negatively infect the entire area that they play in.

You don't have any data to back your claim up, so whatever. Heade thinks players will return if we get rid of these muddy, useless rules.

While both of you don't have evidence to back up your claim, I am inclined to agree with Heade more than you.

[Is Friday]

This is often the story, "some players went overboard and now it's banned."

It's so strange for players who didn't witness that, and have simply come back to a whitewashed game (OP's lament).

You know what I would love as a rape victim? The opportunity to get quick revenge on my own against a rapist in game, or be able to fight off someone who tried to do that in a way I couldn't IRL.

I understand that "that time period" was bad, but every time I hear it come up I am just like, man, I wish I played then so I could have been a vigilante.

But now the content is just gone, redacted. Whitewashing sucks so much.

There are other games where rape, snuff, murder/rape and fantasies like this can be fulfilled.

ArmageddonMUD is not one of them.

Because ArmageddonMUD is no longer as raw and unique as it once was. It's not the intense, harsh wasteland it purports to be any longer. Well maybe it is, but off screen.

Correct. The game is meant to be enjoyed by a large number of players, not the incredibly niche players whose rape plots negatively infect the entire area that they play in.

You don't have any data to back your claim up, so whatever. Heade thinks players will return if we get rid of these muddy, useless rules.

While both of you don't have evidence to back up your claim, I am inclined to agree with Heade more than you.

Alright. Um. No one here has data about whether or not players want to roleplay being raped. This is a discussion forum.

Normal people don't like to roleplay being raped.

[triste]

This is often the story, "some players went overboard and now it's banned."

It's so strange for players who didn't witness that, and have simply come back to a whitewashed game (OP's lament).

You know what I would love as a rape victim? The opportunity to get quick revenge on my own against a rapist in game, or be able to fight off someone who tried to do that in a way I couldn't IRL.

I understand that "that time period" was bad, but every time I hear it come up I am just like, man, I wish I played then so I could have been a vigilante.

But now the content is just gone, redacted. Whitewashing sucks so much.

There are other games where rape, snuff, murder/rape and fantasies like this can be fulfilled.

ArmageddonMUD is not one of them.

Because ArmageddonMUD is no longer as raw and unique as it once was. It's not the intense, harsh wasteland it purports to be any longer. Well maybe it is, but off screen.

Correct. The game is meant to be enjoyed by a large number of players, not the incredibly niche players whose rape plots negatively infect the entire area that they play in.

You don't have any data to back your claim up, so whatever. Heade thinks players will return if we get rid of these muddy, useless rules.

While both of you don't have evidence to back up your claim, I am inclined to agree with Heade more than you.

Alright. Um. No one here has data about whether or not players want to roleplay being raped. This is a discussion forum.

Normal people don't like to roleplay being raped.

Stop tossing around a word you know nothing about. Again, demeaning the experiences of women and rape victims about a topic that pertains to them is paternalistic and lame.

[Saellyn]

Normal people don't like to roleplay stealing, murdering, maiming, decapitating or dismembering people either. Yet we do.

[triste]

Normal people don't like to roleplay stealing, murdering, maiming, decapitating or dismembering people either. Yet we do.

Literally this. The arguments against OP, such as those by IsFriday, are useless noise. Well he's not arguing against OP... but Cabooze's comment... or something?

There is no logical argument that can defend these rules.
- Argument: Add the rule to protect women.
   Uh... I've seen a bunch of women say they don't want the rule at all.
- Argument: Ban this thing because it's super bad
   Uh... the game allows things that are much worse.
- Argument: Ban this thing because it's been politicized and staff/some players want to be political.
   Uh.... WOW this might be the actual explanation!

[th3kaiser]

Do we seriously have a three page thread that's just turned into a bunch of people arguing for and against rape?

I do not care what you game you people come here to play, I do not play a sexual game. Ever. In any context. I have no interest in being forced into such activities on a text game. Disallowing rape and having consent rules allow me to enjoy this game. I know I'm not alone here. I've no interest in getting involved in your gender politics argument about rape victims and the like. I can only speak for me and if these things changed I would leave.

[LauraMars]

Staff, circa RapeBan A.D.: Omg it's too much work to deal with rape stuff and there are not enough hours in the day and there's 97 complaints about it in the queue and I have 42 character reports about this to respond to and I'm doing this for free.
Staff: LET'S BAN RAPE
Staff: *breathes a collective sigh of relief until they realize the amount of board moderation that will now need to happen regarding everyone complaining about this for the next ever*

^ What probably actually happened.

[Shabago]

No, consent is not changing. At least so far as where I (and likely most/all) of the current team stands. Period.

It exists so players can log in and enjoy a story that doesn't involve one persons (codely possible) power trip. The FTB argument does not have any viable baring upon this. Rape, or any other horrific experience doesn't just magically go away because it was faded over. That character now has to go through the rest of their lives with that mental trauma when they have no interest in playing that trauma. And this should be allowed, /why/? No. 100% absolutely not.

Consent is what it is and will remain as it is.

Using the contentious rape argument in here:

- It completely screws with leadership dynamics.
- It causes _players_ not characters, but OOC players to become affected in ways that have nothing to do with an escapism world.
- It is not a "Story line" to pursue. Anything this supposed lack of consent would encourage or allow can be done, still, now. "I want to be a vile rapist fiend in game!" Why? No. You can have the same story line and infamy by being a mass murderer. There is not one single benefit and a laundry list of reasons as to why it hurts the game, the player population and the community as a whole.

Locked.