Author Topic: Longneck?  (Read 2117 times)

Cowboy

  • Posts: 619
Longneck?
« on: May 06, 2020, 08:37:46 PM »
Today I received a warning for using the word "longneck."  I thought the term "necker" was banned.  Did I miss something?
I'd rather be lucky than good.

triste

  • Posts: 306
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2020, 09:06:05 PM »
Today I received a warning for using the word "longneck."  I thought the term "necker" was banned.  Did I miss something?

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52685.msg991344.html#msg991344

This is the only published instance of a banned term like this I see and it's for necker.

Let's not ban any other term like this, as it's a slippery slope. Fantasy vernacular is a very abstract thing to make political. Describing a humanoid by their anatomy is inherently a bit offensive, but if every term like this was banned there wouldn't be a lot of vernacular left.

Per that linked post, that term was not only a slur, but almost homonymous with a real life slur and so it's a special case.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Riev

  • Posts: 5724
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2020, 09:17:18 PM »
Longneck was the progenitor of the term necker.
First they were longnecks.
Then people who associated with them were longneckers.
Then it spread to all elves being longneckers.

Then the history of 'necker' came about.

Its a warning. I think if we're going to be subjected to other words that end up in bans and such, we should know about them beforehand, and not be subject to individual warnings. Don't let staff be subjective in enforcing rules, let it be known.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Cowboy

  • Posts: 619
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2020, 09:27:24 PM »
I hope some staff member just made a mistake this time. 
I'd rather be lucky than good.

NinjaFruitSalad

  • Posts: 109
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2020, 09:37:19 PM »
I have no idea what the term "necker" or "long neck" is even supposed to mean.  Never heard that before.

And for a game that has tons of slavery, forced breeding of interspecies, very prominent racism, mudsex, murder, corruption, and betrayal I find it strange and ironic this particular stance is taken.

BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8504
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2020, 09:39:46 PM »
"Necker" was ultimately banned because it was a lazy effort to get a homonym for "nigger" in to the game so people could make cringy rinthi gansta rap.
janeshephard: You really think BadSkeelz understands the concept of Wine In Front of me? This guy shot me as a townie when he felt threatened. The man's a neandrathal.

Miradus: He's not some weird mental abomination. He's just a guy on the internet.

molecricket

  • Posts: 23
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2020, 09:41:05 PM »
I have no idea what the term "necker" or "long neck" is even supposed to mean.  Never heard that before.

And for a game that has tons of slavery, forced breeding of interspecies, very prominent racism, mudsex, murder, corruption, and betrayal I find it strange and ironic this particular stance is taken.
"Necker"'s resemblance to the real-life N-word is what caught it that ban. It also didn't really make much sense to begin with. Is "neck" a verb? Do elves neck people?

NinjaFruitSalad

  • Posts: 109
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2020, 10:17:52 PM »
*shrugging* 

I notice that most dwarves, half-giants, some muls, and humans tend to be so bulky and stout that they have like no discernable neck.

So I'd assume it's something against elves or particularly slender, elf-like humans and breeds.  It honestly didn't sound much different from sharp, round ear, or knife ear to me. So while "necker" certainly has a real-world resemblance and doesn't make all that much sense in the context of a verb, the term "long neck" definitely looked like it fit in...

John

  • Posts: 4309
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2020, 11:49:49 PM »
"Necker" was ultimately banned because it was a lazy effort to get a homonym for "nigger" in to the game so people could make cringy rinthi gansta rap.
not how it happened. Long neck had a long history of use before Necker came about.

WarriorPoet

  • Posts: 4703
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2020, 07:23:28 AM »
Oh, god. This is back?
We were somewhere near the Shield Wall, on the edge of the Red Desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

triste

  • Posts: 306
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2020, 07:37:57 AM »
Oh, god. This is back?

Yeah we need to just agree that one and only one term like this is blacklisted, drop the topic, and try our best not to bring this up again.

I say as one of our few players with African ancestry in part [and I wasn't at any point offended by fantasy vernacular because the separation of a fantasy world from the real world is nice and clear to me]. Edit: I didn't spell it out, but I understand that just because I am not offended doesn't mean that somebody else isn't. That's obvious and called living in a civil society. Let's not just end up in some weird scenario where we ban "kank" for sounding like "fuck." But let's not get overzealous just rely on staff announcements/docs.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 10:34:53 AM by triste »
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

triste

  • Posts: 306
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2020, 10:21:37 AM »
Well this ended up being timely. The change WRT the Tan Muark is fine, because again, bleed over into real life.

So the guideline here is if it bleeds over into real life pretty clearly, (EG, exactly matches a derogatory term IRL, or matches it in sound to some extent and is used in the same way), and it's derogatory IRL, it doesn't fly IG.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

John

  • Posts: 4309
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2020, 11:03:57 AM »
Gypsy makes 100% sense. It would be the same as "fag" being acceptable in early 90s* but not today. Long neck had nothing to do with RL slurs and any derivatives evolved ICly in a way that made IC sense. While people might have appropriated the term for inappropriate roleplay, the problem isnt the term but the behaviour.

Gypsy vs long neck are in no way comparable.

molecricket

  • Posts: 23
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2020, 11:14:02 AM »
Gypsy makes 100% sense. It would be the same as "fag" being acceptable in early 90s* but not today. Long neck had nothing to do with RL slurs and any derivatives evolved ICly in a way that made IC sense. While people might have appropriated the term for inappropriate roleplay, the problem isnt the term but the behaviour.

Gypsy vs long neck are in no way comparable.
I think we're all in agreement here, I don't know if anyone is in this thread supporting getting a warning for long neck. I would be interested to get some more details on this from staff, all we have right now is Cowboy's account.

Re: Longneck?
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2020, 11:25:06 AM »
While we're talking about vernacular I just want to take a moment to blame Disney for normalizing the word "gypsy" to my subconscious. Thanks Disney. Thanks.

triste

  • Posts: 306
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2020, 11:32:42 AM »
Gypsy makes 100% sense. It would be the same as "fag" being acceptable in early 90s* but not today. Long neck had nothing to do with RL slurs and any derivatives evolved ICly in a way that made IC sense. While people might have appropriated the term for inappropriate roleplay, the problem isnt the term but the behaviour.

Gypsy vs long neck are in no way comparable.
I think we're all in agreement here, I don't know if anyone is in this thread supporting getting a warning for long neck. I would be interested to get some more details on this from staff, all we have right now is Cowboy's account.

Yeah I just submitted a request asking if we could get docs similar to http://armageddon.org/help/view/Sdesc%20Words for stuff like this, or just a post aggregating a list of other posts banning and retconning things in general. This topic is annoying whenever it comes up and it would be cool for both staff and players to have a clearly defined [and ideally very short] list.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Shabago

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 437
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2020, 12:01:31 PM »
Per Triste request:

https://armageddon.org/help/view/Inappropriate%20vernacular

Lacking the context of OP at the time of said exchange, I'm left to assume there was some mis-read/connection to 'Necker'.
Nessalin: At night, I stand there and watch you sleep.  With a hammer in one hand and a candy cane in the other.  Judging.

Grogerif

  • Posts: 88
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2020, 01:59:15 PM »
Now I know I have seen at least five of the words in the not allowed list on recent characters.  So I assume it's not a hard rule, as long as it makes sense and actually is not vulgar or out of place? 

Shabago

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 437
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2020, 02:56:04 PM »
If you see something from said list being used, report it and it'll be fixed/addressed. Things may slip through, there will be some growing pains as people adjust to any sort of change, etc.

Will you be banned because you accidentally slipped and said a word during RP? No. You'll be asked to stop. If it continues, is a trend, or purposefully ignored to grief other players, different story.
Nessalin: At night, I stand there and watch you sleep.  With a hammer in one hand and a candy cane in the other.  Judging.

Re: Longneck?
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2020, 03:12:48 PM »
Maybe this just hasn't been updated yet but just to be sure it's not missed by accident:

"The Tan Muark, also commonly known as the gypsies..."

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tan%20Muark

Shabago

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 437
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2020, 05:33:33 PM »
Maybe this just hasn't been updated yet but just to be sure it's not missed by accident:

"The Tan Muark, also commonly known as the gypsies..."

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tan%20Muark

Thank you. Will grab that now.
Nessalin: At night, I stand there and watch you sleep.  With a hammer in one hand and a candy cane in the other.  Judging.

Cowboy

  • Posts: 619
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2020, 07:23:32 PM »
I am going to continue to use the term "longneck" with my current character.  I'll forward any more warnings I get, via a request, for clarification.
I'd rather be lucky than good.

Dresan

  • Posts: 1465
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2020, 09:03:47 AM »
Per Triste request:

https://armageddon.org/help/view/Inappropriate%20vernacular

Lacking the context of OP at the time of said exchange, I'm left to assume there was some mis-read/connection to 'Necker'.

Just some late feedback about this because I've had similar experiences that to this day I think are stupid.

I feel this sort of thing should be handled by email. With the only message in-game being "Hi. We've sent you some email feedback on the 'action/use/etc'

The short messages in game are just not the best way to handle these issues, as there could be emotions and misunderstanding running on both sides. If emails are ignored then it can be escalated in game but otherwise I feel handling this in-game truly ruins the overall experience.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 09:06:16 AM by Dresan »
This message was brought to you by a fair weather player.

Doublepalli

  • Posts: 342
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2020, 09:40:29 AM »
As a man of color I do not find longneck offensive or degrading at all to the RL N word.

I think people who are blowing this out of proportion.

Elves are tall, and lanky and probably do have long necks.

Banning necker/necka makes since.

Longneck? That doesn't even remotely sound like the N word

triste

  • Posts: 306
Re: Longneck?
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2020, 02:26:40 PM »
As a man of color I do not find longneck offensive or degrading at all to the RL N word.

I think people who are blowing this out of proportion.

Elves are tall, and lanky and probably do have long necks.

Banning necker/necka makes since.

Longneck? That doesn't even remotely sound like the N word

I'm part black too and also wasn't offended deeply by these words: that is why I find this topic annoying, and that is why I asked for staff to cleanly enumerate banned words so that we can just point to that list and drop the topic.

I think banning topics/words is a bad idea that irrevocably changes and limits our game, BUT... now that the door has been opened, best to clearly enumerate the policy so that we don't have to debate it [which staff did, thanks!]
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.