Author Topic: GMH Hunter populations  (Read 1224 times)

Helloworld

  • Posts: 50
GMH Hunter populations
« on: April 13, 2020, 05:23:28 PM »
Hi all,

Am wondering: Why do the GMH clans not run PC hunters?

Is this a staff policy or a GMH role prerogative?

It seems strange that there are no IG clan options for hunters who want to be involved with the, presumably massive, materials acquisition process involved in running the GMHs.

What are people's thoughts?

Cheers!

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2104
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2020, 06:21:56 PM »
There used to be hunting divisions, even Kadius had one.

But there was a big push at one point and staff removed the options to encourage Indy players further, so the only way for PC GMH members to get materials would be Amos the hunter, or hire the T'zai Byn to protect a guy who has the skinning skill.

Helloworld

  • Posts: 50
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2020, 09:18:55 PM »
Ah ok, thanks for the info! Sounds like a positive change actually :)

Tuannon

  • Posts: 1381
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2020, 03:52:28 AM »
Which was funny, because Salarr was heavily subcontracting at the time.

th3kaiser

  • Posts: 485
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2020, 09:23:16 AM »
I miss GMH hunters. As it is, I never have a chance to join a GMH again just based on the sorts of PCs I play. Ignoring the supply issues, it was a fun bit of RP being in a GMH crew.

Alesan

  • Posts: 368
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2020, 11:30:56 AM »
GMH Hunter was my favorite role in the game. I'm still quite sad that it's gone.

DesertT

  • Posts: 942
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2020, 11:31:46 AM »
I miss GMH hunters. As it is, I never have a chance to join a GMH again just based on the sorts of PCs I play. Ignoring the supply issues, it was a fun bit of RP being in a GMH crew.
Stalker/Armorcrafter - or Weaponscrafter or any sub guild that crafts weapons

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Or any crafting class with master chef or outdoorsman
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th3kaiser

  • Posts: 485
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2020, 12:53:25 PM »
Dude, I play just about nothing but stalkers and scouts!  ;)  I just miss being part of a GMH crew RP-wise. Not the hunting role itself.

Edit: I get you're saying do a sub crafter, but I'm not looking for any reason to join a GMH. I just miss riding around with your Salarri crewmembers and the like not the city RP stuff (which I can avoid forever and be happy).
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 12:56:06 PM by th3kaiser »

ChuciPeppers

  • Posts: 19
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2020, 02:39:17 PM »
Dude, I play just about nothing but stalkers and scouts!  ;)  I just miss being part of a GMH crew RP-wise. Not the hunting role itself.

Edit: I get you're saying do a sub crafter, but I'm not looking for any reason to join a GMH. I just miss riding around with your Salarri crewmembers and the like not the city RP stuff (which I can avoid forever and be happy).

Touche. I want to be out wandering around or off in the far flung wilds doing wilderness things. Not everyone wants to play city/politics stuff, and that shouldn't exclude you from 9/10ths of the clans that exist. >.>
First the sweet, then the heat.

teacup

  • Posts: 306
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2020, 04:08:13 PM »
Dude, I play just about nothing but stalkers and scouts!  ;)  I just miss being part of a GMH crew RP-wise. Not the hunting role itself.

Edit: I get you're saying do a sub crafter, but I'm not looking for any reason to join a GMH. I just miss riding around with your Salarri crewmembers and the like not the city RP stuff (which I can avoid forever and be happy).

Touche. I want to be out wandering around or off in the far flung wilds doing wilderness things. Not everyone wants to play city/politics stuff, and that shouldn't exclude you from 9/10ths of the clans that exist. >.>

You can be a hunting-capable character in GMH, you just won't be called a Hunter. There's plenty of options and stuff within the Families and they legit work both in and out of cities. Just talk to one of the many GMH leaders about said options and stuff.

th3kaiser

  • Posts: 485
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2020, 04:38:51 PM »
Sure, it's a different role though. You're getting hired as something else and you just happen to be a hunter who can go out now and again. Not the same thing.

I miss the old GMH hunter crew roles is all. I enjoyed the dynamic of working with a decent sized crew under the aegis of a GMH. (Nor am I whinging and asking for it back, just missing a role I enjoyed. I like indies, but it's nice to have a coded clan now and again)

teacup

  • Posts: 306
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2020, 05:08:16 PM »
I just miss being part of a GMH crew RP-wise. Not the hunting role itself.

^^ Oh, cause like I was going off that.

triste

  • Posts: 180
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2020, 11:26:21 PM »
GMH Hunter was my favorite role in the game. I'm still quite sad that it's gone.

Just +1 to this. This was also my favorite role in game and I was shocked when I learned PC GMH hunters were removed after returning from a break. It fit the setting and docs and was a blast to play.
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BadSkeelz

  • Posts: 8482
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2020, 11:51:25 PM »
They got a little too twinky towards the end.
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Harmless

  • Posts: 2861
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2020, 06:16:15 AM »
Plenty of "twinky" stuff happens in the rinth, the Arm, the Byn...

Better solution is to fix the game code that players learn to abuse.

Examples:

Example one: When I played in the Byn once I remember a byn sarge calmly using slings..slings alone..to kill salt worms . Just...lots of fucking sling bullets. To kill a salt worm. Back then, the salt worms wouldn't do anything about it. If you had scan high enough you could kill them this way. I bet he entered that shoot command 1000 times to beat the thing's hide.

I filed a player complaint about that, for the utter lack of realism and danger, and staff shot me down as it was codedly feasible and they said my complaint about realism was meh.

Well, years later staff did the right thing and improved the npc AI out there and archery and slings aren't quite a magick bullet anymore are they. In the end it does look like staff agreed with my complaint, but they did the right thing and changed the code.

I dont care that my complaint was rejected...but I kinda wonder if they did forward to the sarge because I didn't see him do that quite as much after I complained. Either way the point is the right course of action was to eventually fix the code, not "shut down the Byn."

Example two: rinth training. Was a lot of silly murderfests that happened back in the day for twink training assassin skills in the rinth. Nowadays I don't think it is as common thanks both to some player enforcement and code updates. But I can't go into certainty here, however I think more repurcussions are to be had for murder practicing if it is done crudely especially.

Three: magick use. Was plenty of complaints about how mages used magick before in Nak. Code updates for law enforcement of magick laws for realism. Luckily this happened and not "removal of gemmed."

Point is that "twinky" shit happens everywhere and when the right thing is done, whole sections of the game don't have to be closed. Code and the virtual world just need a beefing.


Finally, GMH hunters were closed, but informal GMH hunters still exist. They were new labels like "field aide" and it is more limited, less organized. But the way the game evolved it seems we want to discourage too many players grouping up for these activities.

Thing is demand still exists for high level hunting. It goes to interesting places instead of the old GMH hunting groups..I won't divulge which groups are picking up the slack here but the staff know and I wonder if that was an intended effect of this decision or not.

I am with Kaiser. I miss these roles but I am not clamoring for them back. The roles had some fun interactiins with other Gmh staff but not a lot of intrigue otherwise, they got a bit boring. It also opened up opportunity for indies..who need it, to prevent their roles from being boring, and the playerbase seems to want indie roles. So I don't think that we have to reopen them in full. Like every decision to close or remove things, staff need to and have, honestly, looked at it afterwards. We have drovians again, for instance, just as subguilds. I don't feel so strongly about GMH hunters.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 06:19:29 AM by Harmless »
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Barsook

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Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2020, 09:12:12 AM »
I have a feeling this change was sparked from this https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47693.msg832900.html#msg832900 but it of been just a staff's choice for a push though.

th3kaiser

  • Posts: 485
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2020, 09:29:32 AM »
I'd thought it was more to facilitate indie play to make GMH's buy raws from them instead of keeping it all in house. (At least that's what I recall from when the change was made)

 I mean who cares if you're losing money working for a GMH. Anybody can make a random indie and get rich. It was about the RP experience of being in a hunting/military lite group that isn't the Byn or a Law-clan.

triste

  • Posts: 180
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2020, 10:47:09 AM »
Anybody can make a random indie and get rich. It was about the RP experience of being in a hunting/military lite group that isn't the Byn or a Law-clan.

This, 100%. We lost a lot when we lost these roles culturally and RP wise, more so than we gained. It is also hard to see something logically supported [a house heavily reliant on material X will likely find a way to procure it reliably] and supported by documentation [Salarr is mentioned to have a strong hunting division in the docs] but not be playable. There are only a few handful of roles that I agreed with closing because it was well justified, example, no more gladiators for now because it requires a lot of staff support. In this case I am not sure the closure was well justified, nor is the outcome ideal.
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Helloworld

  • Posts: 50
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2020, 10:49:11 PM »
Dude, I play just about nothing but stalkers and scouts!  ;)  I just miss being part of a GMH crew RP-wise. Not the hunting role itself.

Edit: I get you're saying do a sub crafter, but I'm not looking for any reason to join a GMH. I just miss riding around with your Salarri crewmembers and the like not the city RP stuff (which I can avoid forever and be happy).

This 100% and again! I loved those hunter squads. And it had a remit; gather resources. Enjoyed it very much!

Edited to add:

[/quote]
It is also hard to see something logically supported [a house heavily reliant on material X will likely find a way to procure it reliably] and supported by documentation [Salarr is mentioned to have a strong hunting division in the docs] but not be playable.
[/quote]

And this, especially when there seems to be so much demand for this style of role/RP
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 10:57:02 PM by Helloworld »

Heade

  • Posts: 872
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2020, 03:32:36 PM »
We lost a lot when we lost these roles culturally and RP wise, more so than we gained.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that the roles were likely closed due to a game population issue. When the game has a robust player population and 100 PC hunters, it doesn't matter if 20 of them are employed by the GMH's.

When the game has 21 active hunters and 20 of them are employed by the GMHs it causes problems. People should think about the ripple effects of that situation on the in-game economy. The shop shelves in game will be as bare as the Walmart toilet paper isle during the coronavirus pandemic, because instead of being sold at shops, all those hunters will be required to put their goods in GMH store-rooms. Further, it makes it nearly impossible for an indie merchant to find a hunter to hire, since part of the deal of being a GMH hunter was exclusivity. They weren't allowed to hunt for anyone else. When the player population is below a certain threshold, it can't support a non-limited GMH hunter role.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to each GMH having one "slot" for a PC hunter to be hired, but I don't think that would provide the RP that people are pining for, since it won't be a hunting "crew", but instead a solitary house hunter. I don't think the player population could support much more than one slot per GMH at the moment, without having rather severe consequences on the IG economy. Even one per GMH will likely be noticeable in the shops and when trying to find a hunter for hire.

Imagine how frustrating it is to be an indie craftsman and have every PC hunter in the game tell you they can't get you some bones because they work for X GMH. That's how things were in the past when too many PC hunters worked for them. And that situation is NOT supported by the documentation. There should be many times more non-affiliated hunters than affiliated hunters. Without the population to support both, I think I prefer to keep GMH hunting crews virtual.
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th3kaiser

  • Posts: 485
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2020, 04:29:09 PM »
Yup, totally agree with you on the economics of it.  I don't think anyone is arguing that point. (But also why does everyone follow the rules so hard! Break rules and sell shit to other people, it's not an OOC rule)

It sounds like everyone is just missing the roleplay. I was feeling a bit nostalgic about some of the best roles I've had in this game which are currently unplayable and not trying to make a logical argument.

Heade

  • Posts: 872
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2020, 05:04:29 PM »
Yup, totally agree with you on the economics of it.  I don't think anyone is arguing that point.

This, 100%. We lost a lot when we lost these roles culturally and RP wise, more so than we gained. It is also hard to see something logically supported [a house heavily reliant on material X will likely find a way to procure it reliably] and supported by documentation [Salarr is mentioned to have a strong hunting division in the docs] but not be playable. There are only a few handful of roles that I agreed with closing because it was well justified, example, no more gladiators for now because it requires a lot of staff support. In this case I am not sure the closure was well justified, nor is the outcome ideal.

It seemed like the thread was trending in the direction of asking to have such crews opened back up, as supported by the above quote. My post was to bring logic back into what had otherwise been a mostly emotionally charged and nostalgic discussion that seemed to be headed towards an ask.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 05:06:24 PM by Heade »
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Tuannon

  • Posts: 1381
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2020, 07:50:11 AM »
The thing is, people will just do it anyway.. I'm not a Salarr employed hunter but I take 99% of my supply requests from them.

It's probably (not probably) happening right now.

Personally I think not having official GMH crews is preferable as the playerbase simply isn't up to having it be available. While sure you get some good Kadian greb crew RP in, a bunch will just want to clear the grasslands of duskhorn or what have you.

triste

  • Posts: 180
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2020, 09:44:04 AM »
My post was to bring logic back into what had otherwise been a mostly emotionally charged and nostalgic discussion that seemed to be headed towards an ask.

My post wasn't emotional; your response seems to be as you augmented my post to add double emphasis to some of my statements [without saying you added emphasis]. That's called a misquote and is not a "logical" or good rhetorical tactic  ;D

Economic arguments are great -- but there is never one prevailing economic thesis (for every Keynesian there is a Monetarist). You can't come here and insult someone and say "You are illogical, I am right by default due to this science" because that is literally not how science works -- provide the facts, look at opposing arguments. So you want to talk economics? Here's how removing GMH also messed up the economy:

The economy worked well with GMH, insofar as indies could get more rich and get more fame than they have now, while GMHs could also enjoy a completely a completely different economic system closer to old school mercantilism (cool, variety!) while also making things better for indies by staying out of their market. It was actually more fun to be an indie hunter in the era of GMH, because you filled a rarely filled niche in high demand (economics!). Today the experience of the indie hunter is trying to sell a chalton hide at the market 20 weeks in a row because the merchant always has a full stock of chalton hides because the market is now oversaturated for indies (economics, but in a sad way!). This leads to a less profitable indie hunter experience than before. Similarly, more high-value materials now tend to end up on the market, because indies by their lack of clan affiliation necessarily have a stronger incentive to sell it on the market where the markup for rare items is huge than trade it to a merchant. Selling to NPC merchants necessarily results in a huge markup independent merchants cannot afford, ironically further concentrating power with GMH (while also just losing some items to the void due to auto selling, RIP anyone who wanted that kryl shell helmet). So this pokes holes in the "things are better for indies," now even moreso the case now that stock inventory persists on reboot. It likely is also a factor in other gripes people have had, such as the way so many GMH crafted items have simply disappeared due to recipes being forgotten, people killing beasts with highly desired materials but just dumping them on the market where they disapear, etc.

Economically speaking, being an indie hunter is nowhere near as profitable or exciting as it used to be; economically speaking, GMH hunting makes sense (it's in the docs), actually helped indies by desaturating the open market, helps players by getting them that awesome custom crafted loot they want, but now isn't even a playable option.

But really, I want to get back to what this did to roleplay options, which is what th3kaiser, alesan, and those of us who miss GMH hunters care about. When there were GMH hunters, players could freely choose to be an indie or a GMH and I found the economy well balanced per the strictly economic analysis above. You could actually sell a lot as an indie and make a ton of money. Once indie trading companies became known, all the independent merchants adored them, and I've remembered some epic named trading companies in the past that just don't seem to exist anymore. On the opposite side of the coin, I see less grizzled, solo hunters which is also a great roleplay option for outcast races. Before GMH was removed, before when the indie hunting market was forced to the point of saturation, it was easier to play a completely misanthropic mutant breed hunter and sell on the market -- a valid concept -- but per the economic analysis above this is now extremely unviable and unprofitable, particularly with starting prey [the chalton hide example]. Before the changes, you could be an GMH hunter and enjoy rich roleplay docs, a more merchantilist economic system as an alternative to the indie hunter experience, and even help indies by desaturating the market in the process. So essentially while we had three balanced roleplay options before, we now are prohibited completely from playing one, severely stunted in another, and essentially forced to play the option remaining.

I am always in favor of more good roleplay, and more good roleplay options. The one thing that cannot, for a fact, be refuted, is that closing GMH hunting closed several roleplay options across several different Houses. Emphasis my own, fact irrefutable, and basically the only fact on the table here from anyone.

The thing is, people will just do it anyway.. I'm not a Salarr employed hunter but I take 99% of my supply requests from them.

Yes this is absolutely the case so far as I have seen -- just now the hunter gets to enjoy the experience of not having a career ladder, not clan based RPTs, not having clan culture, and not having all the other awesome stuff GMH hunters enjoyed.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

triste

  • Posts: 180
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2020, 10:39:13 AM »
Also just thought of a further socioeconomic point demonstrating how GMH hunters actually helped indie hunting. It was a common career trajectory for renowned indie hunters to be ex-Salarri, ex-Kadian hunters. In fact, the experience of being an indie hunter today is to be told "You can get your own warehouse! There's a famous example of this hunter who did it!" Who was that hunter who got this warehouse? A former Salarri hunter IIRC. And I think it is no coincidence that this is indie hunter with a warehouse that all the indies are told to emulate had this background, because it was common for many of the greatest indie hunters to be ex-house hunters. Yet ironically this career trajectory indies are told to emulate is now impossible to emulate.

Economies do not benefit from monopolistic supply sources, they benefit from competition. Protagonists do not grow from a lack of challenges, they grow with adversity and foils. The GMH was the competitor and foil to the indie and vise versa. Many indies started GMH because it provides good conditions to learn and gain rank and reputation. If I have been emotional at any point here, it's because it breaks my heart to see a new player ask a really well founded question which could once be answered in a way the player would have liked, "yes, you can play that," but now has to be answered with "no, you cannot play that, because of debatable and arbitrary reasons." If this is an option people want to play, people should ideally be able to play it, and by nature of playing it they are actually giving more space for their competitors to succeed per the market analysis in the prior post.

More options are always better, the new player asked if we had an option, and the answer was no. This is what we are discussing. The cool thing about this game is that by discussion, players can sometimes get what they want and be happy. Ultimately I also agree with Harmless that it's probably too late to go back, but I also agree with Harmless and several others that something was "lost" here.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8191
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2020, 01:34:44 PM »
I see the topic from 3 sides: from the POV of a former GMH hunter (several times over) and the POV of an employer (a couple of times) and the POV of an indie hunter.

As a GMH hunter, certain times were great, others were incredibly frustrating and store-worthy. If the crew (mostly) got along AND (most) had overlapping login times AND you were not a recruit forbidden from leaving the city without an officer AND there were actual things needed AND the storeroom had actual room for more stuff THEN it was awesome.

The only time it was somewhat fun, if ALL of the above were checked off as "true" was if the only thing missing from the mix was "actual things needed." Because we could go hunting anyway, or explore, or come up with excuses to get out of the city.

I recall several experiences when it was just too much to deal with. I was a recruit, my PC's boss transferred almost immediately after hiring her to Allanak from Tuluk. Of my three crew-mates, only one was still around, and even then it was barely. She was also not an officer so neither of us could leave the city, ever. Finally a staff member took pity on us and animated a Senior Agent who gave us permission to leave, as long as we were together. My clan mate promptly got herself killed/stored, and I was the one and only member of the entire crew, with no leadership of any kind, and no permission to DO what my character was hired to do. I stored after a few MONTHS of trying.

Another time in the same clan, different crew, we were stockpiled before I was even hired. The crew leader would not allow us to clean up the mess because he said some of it was important and he alone knew what was needed. But he was hardly ever around when we were, and when he was, he was too busy dealing with trade to spend time doing any cleaning or delegating the task. So we had no place to PUT anything we were hunting for.  The room capacities were full. Some of us broke the IC rules and just junked a whole bunch of stuff...

but then it turned out that the room capacity had been increased previously to accommodate a couple of big orders (that were never filled), and the rooms were returned to their proper capacities. Which meant - all that stuff we threw away, didn't do any good at all because the room was now full again, at the correct capacity instead of the increased one.

Then there's the drama that comes with being in a clan. Sometimes it's fun. Sometimes you store out of frustration. If you're a recruit, it's not so bad. You can always leave. But once you're lifesworn, you can't walk way from it just because you don't like how Jimbob is pissing off SandyAnn by sleeping with Sandy's brother while he's supposed to be in love with her and she's having his triplets who will live in a make-shift cradle that is actually the chest used to store all the poisoned daggers. That kind of drama - I don't want to deal with. Ever. Again. I want to be able to continue playing my character - but not in that clan, and not with the result that I am hunted down for leaving while lifesworn.

Another time I was in charge of a crew that I inherited from a previous crew leader. The new crew spent most of their time in the barracks, NOT doing anything they were actually hired to do. Turned out none of them had "ranger vision" and were ALL hired as hunters - in Allanak - and at the time the sandstorm code was usually brutal outside the gates. So I fired the bunch of them, and selected just two employees total; a field aide-type hunter, and an assassin-type hunter. Told them to be busy, spy on the other Agents and Merchants, take care of any significant threat to trade, and don't piss off the templars. It was great for awhile, but eventually they died or stored out of boredom. Now, you couldn't pay me to volunteer to be in charge of a crew. That experience is the main reason but I'd had similar experiences being a crew leader after that, which solidified my decision. Not everyone is cut out to be a babysitter crew leader.

Then there's the "being in charge of a crew you're required to hire for, and having to hire characters of brand new players while being pressured to perform by the local templarate/nobility/clan Agent/merchant.  Sorry but right now we're busy teaching this character's player how to sit at a table, wield a weapon, change hands ep, TALK instead of SAY, and how to not experiment on templars with the "steal" skill just because they're bored and think NPCs won't kill them over it. That's great for the Byn, that is set up to handle this kind of thing. But it's not so great when you're trying to run a USEFUL hunting crew, if some of the crew are already established and some don't even know syntax yet.

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Heade

  • Posts: 872
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2020, 02:50:50 PM »
My post was to bring logic back into what had otherwise been a mostly emotionally charged and nostalgic discussion that seemed to be headed towards an ask.

My post wasn't emotional; your response seems to be as you augmented my post to add double emphasis to some of my statements [without saying you added emphasis]. That's called a misquote and is not a "logical" or good rhetorical tactic  ;D

Regarding my post saying emotional and nostalgic posts were dominating the discussion, that wasn't directed at you. As you can well see in my quote, it referred to the entirety of the discussion, which is filled with people who miss the good ol' days(nostalgia) of playing in a GMH crew. They miss it because they enjoyed it(emotion). I responded with why the math doesn't work on having that role available with a reduced playerbase.

As for your claim I misquoted you, no, that's not a misquote. I highlighted the parts of what you said that were meant to be in response to th3kaiser, who was saying that no one was trying to make the point that those roles should be brought back(you seem to be), or that they shouldn't have been removed(you also seem to be suggesting they shouldn't have been removed). It was akin to me circling parts of what you said to point them out. That's not a misquote. I could have, quite simply, quoted only the highlighted parts to make my point, and that wouldn't be a misquote either. But I chose to highlight the portions of what you said that were relevant while leaving the surrounding text there because I didn't want to quote you out of context. I was trying to be polite by quoting you in it's entirety. So relax, Ace.

Now, as for the rest of your claims that I'm not going to bother to quote, indie hunters might have been able to sell more to shops, sure. But you completely ignored the bit about indie merchants, who basically couldn't even do business when every hunter worked for the GMH's. And despite the fact that an indie hunter COULD make more money and become rich when all the other hunters worked for GMH's, they mostly didn't. Mostly, they ended up working for a GMH, too. And there were either no indie hunters, or so few that all non-GMH PC concepts that rely on PC hunters to provide materials to the indie economy were made nonviable roles.

Also, I think maybe you haven't spent much time as an indie merchant, based on this comment:
Similarly, more high-value materials now tend to end up on the market, because indies by their lack of clan affiliation necessarily have a stronger incentive to sell it on the market where the markup for rare items is huge than trade it to a merchant. Selling to NPC merchants necessarily results in a huge markup independent merchants cannot afford, ironically further concentrating power with GMH (while also just losing some items to the void due to auto selling, RIP anyone who wanted that kryl shell helmet).

Indie Merchant characters have access to haggle so they can reduce that price by quite a bit, and as an indie merchant, it is far better to have those rare materials for sale in shops than to not have any access to them at all, and not have access to any hunters at all because they all work for the GMH's in exclusive deals.

PC merchants, both GMH and Non-GMH are important to the economy and world of Zalanthas. The amount of RP that arises out of them coexisting rivals, or I daresay exceeds the amount of RP that is derived from competing noble houses existing. Having a role that locks the vast majority of the game's PC hunters into only providing materials for one half of that coin stymies entire plotlines involving numerous characters across many, many more than 3 character concepts. It devalues all non-GMH non-combat classes to the point of them not being worth playing at all in the current system.

If we wanted to make it to where the vNPC hunters routinely filled the shops up with items and materials currently provided by PC hunters, that would make it feasible to open up, but it would also make both GMH and Non-GMH hunters highly irrelevant, since GMH Merchants could get stuff cheap from shops without having to locate a hunter, and so could indie merchants. So, it would make the opposite situation occur. Hunters would basically only be able to be successful by joining a GMH and getting paid regularly to keep the stock room full, because it'd be too hard for them to sell things as an indie, which also wouldn't fit the game world.

This whole problem is very simple, Triste. We just don't have enough players to fill all the hunter roles the game needs to function as intended by the docs. There was a time when GMH crews routinely had 5 hunters each, and there were still plenty of indie hunters to go around. Sadly, that was over a decade ago when Tuluk was still open for play and we had a big enough playerbase to support both major city-states.

This isn't anything personal. I'm not saying you're too emotional, or that I don't like you, or that you're a bad person. It's just simple math. We just don't have the numbers. I would love to have GMH hunting crews in the game, but not without the playerbase to support a functioning economy, is all. And, as someone who obviously doesn't play indie merchant characters, I don't think you understand the impact that allowing GMH hunting crews with the current population has on the availability of what should be simple, common materials.

Ultimately, you're concerning yourself with how that affects your preferred hunting roles. I'm looking at the situation holistically. My comments were designed to draw back the focus from just being on that hunter role to look at how that decision impacted the entirety of the game from a bird's eye view. And hunters are an integral part of the functioning machine that is the armageddon economy. If one side of the PC economy can't access hunters or their materials, people stop playing them, the game stagnates, competition disappears, and it takes potential plotlines with it.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 02:54:13 PM by Heade »
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

triste

  • Posts: 180
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2020, 03:30:07 PM »
And, as someone who obviously doesn't play indie merchant characters

Another disparaging supposition that is patently false.

It's just simple math. We just don't have the numbers.

We had 79 players online recently, numbers last year were good as well, if this math is what your entire thesis hinges on, provide some numbers. Otherwise it is again taking rhetorical highground without the due dilligence of discussing the specifics of your math or economics.


In the end folks, let's just be proactive. I liked the proactive recommendation about how we could potentially cap the number of hunters if this were to reopen, as this would also fully address the points Lizzie feedback.

As a GMH hunter, certain times were great, others were incredibly frustrating and store-worthy.

Exactly this. A statement that can be applied to literally any role in the game. Any role. I just want to recap: a new player read the docs, asked if something was playable, we had to tell him no. Then some other players came in and said they missed those roles. Other players came in to say the roles were crap. No role is perfect 100% of the time, and not all roles work for everyone. House hunter really worked for more than three posters in this thread, and they miss it; House hunter might have been a role OP might of liked, and now he does not even have the option.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Aruven

  • Posts: 2532
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2020, 09:06:40 PM »
I'm just reading this thread as a guy who stored their last GMH family member out of sheer rage and frustration like




triste

  • Posts: 180
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2020, 09:29:23 PM »
I'm just reading this thread as a guy who stored their last GMH family member out of sheer rage and frustration

Not all roles are for everyone. Certainly a lot of people apply for and want the role you decided to store. What matters is you had the option and the chance. Now other people can enjoy that option and probably not store.

Alas, some roles get closed with questionable justification and the players who loved those roles are just in the dust. I don't care about any feelings of vindication people might feel to see this disappointment. I care about people having the roleplay options they want and could enjoy.
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

triste

  • Posts: 180
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2020, 09:31:58 PM »
There has been a lot of negativity and mudslinging in this thread -- I just want OP to know that roles close and will sometimes reopen later. Your thoughtful expression of interest might go some way in opening up more roleplay options some day which is great!
will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Aruven

  • Posts: 2532
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2020, 10:31:17 PM »
So anyways.

I put a lot of time into a particular GMH clan, though I played in all of them to some extent usually as a family member. You are probably wearing something IG that I crafted or helped design (And I always had great help) at this very moment.

This track started to go ballistic a long time ago, and it started with the implementations of things like, staff directives about GMH crews stationed north or south had to stay there unless it was a punishment or something. Closing the expansion divisions. There were pros and cons to the choices being slowly implemented depending on who you asked then and now, and in all fairness the staff WANTED to explore different tracks for GMH viability. There were constantly arguments about what 'life oaths' really meant, for instance, and what should be done about them. (This was in all clans it applied too also, not just GMH) The finer details of what really happens is lost. We have GDB threads but we don't know who was putting in what hours, what roles they were playing, what conflicts led to the little changes over time. We get generalized justifications good enough to assuage reason and keep the game going. It would take pages of thread to catch OP up on the history of GMH in this game and the way they were truly and now are truly played. I don't know how to fix it.

I know for sure one clan was looking at having its military faction removed from it for IC REASONS, not player base reasons. The population will always have some effect on clan/player ratio but it's always been way over hyped either way in this community for whatever reason. Players follow good role-players when they find them in clans. Not OOC on discord find them, I'm talking about when they enjoy their role-play. And those leaders moved clans! And clan numbers shifted. Our response was drastic.

I decided to jump into the frying pan and play a role in a GMH again and its absolutely ridiculous. There are innumerable reasons why, but the short version is there is shit happening that just makes absolutely no sense unless you have no idea what finance means or what your job as a clan family member should be. On MASSIVE scales. The other side of absolutely no sense was the political factor from top to bottom, but we kinda just hit reset with consolidation and scrapped most game history to a certain point anyways so I could live with some of that. I just couldn't live with all of that on top of month long plus gaps in staff communication, so I stored. I didn't realize the role had shifted so far into being a dispensary station for Luirs outpost alone. Absolutely wild.

Its been a mess for years. People have asked for and begged for updated documentation that made sense to be fleshed out for YEARS. My amused apathy is because i've had many a GMH let down.


« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 10:39:13 PM by Aruven »

tortall

  • Posts: 2263
Re: GMH Hunter populations
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2020, 08:46:15 PM »
I'm just reading this thread as a guy who stored their last GMH family member out of sheer rage and frustration like



Stored their AWESOME GMH....... If it's the same one I'm thinking of.
The man asks you:
     "'Bout damn time, lol.  She didn't bang you up too bad, did she?"
The man says, ooc:
     "OG did i jsut do that?"

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I love the players of this game.
That's not a random thought either.