Author Topic: Subclass Swap  (Read 1548 times)

Lotion

  • Posts: 35
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2020, 10:40:00 PM »
Is there much of a precedent of players making unawakened gicks and doing "objectively good non meta rp" only to be rewarded with death by templar? Sounds like it would definitely make me salty for having wasted a few month of karma regen.

azuriolinist

  • Posts: 472
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2020, 10:43:25 PM »
No, Lotion. Unless you're in Tuluk. In Allanak, they do have the gemmed.

Krath

  • Posts: 2601
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2020, 11:03:48 PM »
So I am clear, if you are unmanifested, you can still be identified and persecuted? Is this correct?
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2104
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2020, 11:22:49 PM »
So I am clear, if you are unmanifested, you can still be identified and persecuted? Is this correct?

That is definately the vibe I am getting.

mansa

  • Posts: 9849
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2020, 11:57:08 PM »
So I am clear, if you are unmanifested, you can still be identified and persecuted? Is this correct?

That is definately the vibe I am getting.

Most up to date information:
Sept 21st releast notes
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1037913.html#msg1037913

Naathvaan commenting:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52143.msg1037969.html#msg1037969
Brokkr commenting:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52143.msg1037992.html#msg1037992
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one

Krath

  • Posts: 2601
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2020, 12:29:40 AM »
Mansa, I appreciate you sending us gdb post, but I am seeking an official answer from staff.
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

Narf

  • Posts: 901
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2020, 12:47:52 AM »
Mansa, I appreciate you sending us gdb post, but I am seeking an official answer from staff.

Those are release notes about code changes. They're pretty official.

Cabooze

  • Posts: 311
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2020, 12:55:48 AM »
So I am clear, if you are unmanifested, you can still be identified and persecuted? Is this correct?

That is definately the vibe I am getting.

Most up to date information:
Sept 21st releast notes
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1037913.html#msg1037913

Naathvaan commenting:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52143.msg1037969.html#msg1037969
Brokkr commenting:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52143.msg1037992.html#msg1037992

Thank you, this dismisses a lot of my issues regarding this when referring to magickal subguilds.

However, I think Mansa's stance in being able to choose your subguild based on situation should be considered as well. Sure, this wouldn't apply to magickal subguilds for the given reasons above, but surely there could be a way to set a 'placeholder' subguild during character creation, which makes a distinction between gicker subs and mundane ones, allowing you to select a mundane sub later on if it fits your character's growing story (and if you had enough karma when you created that character).

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2104
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2020, 04:59:04 AM »
I don't get how hard it was for Brokkr to just say it again, instead of being obtuse and arguing the point of it all.

It isn't hard to type: No, if you have never used magick you won't be able to be outed.

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 969
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2020, 11:52:04 AM »
That may be what I implied by what I said, but I didn't say that, exactly.  I happen to like secrets and surprises and folks having to cross their fingers.

As for the subclasses, Templars currently don't start the game with a subclass, we remove it when we set them up (literally subclass:  none).  So that is a thing.  When they earn a subclass, it is a bit of a pain to add it onto the templar, as we have to manually adjust the skills themselves.  The subclass just ensures that the skill doesn't disappear first time they use it.

mansa

  • Posts: 9849
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2020, 01:42:31 PM »
...
As for the subclasses, Templars currently don't start the game with a subclass, we remove it when we set them up (literally subclass:  none).  So that is a thing.  When they earn a subclass, it is a bit of a pain to add it onto the templar, as we have to manually adjust the skills themselves.  The subclass just ensures that the skill doesn't disappear first time they use it.

That's an interesting peek behind the curtain!


It seems like the intent of the Templar class is ultimately the game design that I'd like to have going forward with the regular classes.  (*magick subclasses differ, naturally)
Cool.
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one

X-D

  • Posts: 5728
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2020, 09:23:31 PM »
So, I was all set to agree with Brokkr...I know, GASP...but then I did some searching and well, nowhere do the docs state that the elemental bond is from birth. It implies, but does not directly state...and according to the rules, without direct statement then it is false.

So...

Brokkr, Are you directly stating that the elemental bond is from birth? And this is known IG?

A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Krath

  • Posts: 2601
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2020, 12:18:41 AM »
So, I was all set to agree with Brokkr...I know, GASP...but then I did some searching and well, nowhere do the docs state that the elemental bond is from birth. It implies, but does not directly state...and according to the rules, without direct statement then it is false.

So...

Brokkr, Are you directly stating that the elemental bond is from birth? And this is known IG?

Brokkr?
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 969
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2020, 07:48:58 PM »
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Elementalist%20Culture

Quote
They were born this way and that's that.

DesertT

  • Posts: 942
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2020, 07:52:20 PM »
So how hard would it be to allow subclass selection once a character has started play?

I think that's the big question here and what I was trying to get to all along.

 ;D
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Cabooze

  • Posts: 311
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2020, 09:26:39 PM »
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Elementalist%20Culture

Quote
They were born this way and that's that.

But that's not to say there haven't been instances where an element(?) picks someone to inhabit. I can speak readily to attest to this, being that it has occurred to a character of mine that died over a year ago, now. There's some inconsistencies going on.

So how hard would it be to allow subclass selection once a character has started play?

I think that's the big question here and what I was trying to get to all along.

 ;D

I concur and I want an answer to this, personally. Perhaps create some sort of method to re-submit your character sheet in a method that doesn't give a blanket wipe to your existing skills?

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 969
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2020, 10:18:48 PM »
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Elementalist%20Culture

Quote
They were born this way and that's that.

But that's not to say there haven't been instances where an element(?) picks someone to inhabit. I can speak readily to attest to this, being that it has occurred to a character of mine that died over a year ago, now. There's some inconsistencies going on.

Pretty sure I know what you are talking about off the top of my head.  That was just staff manifesting someone(s) that hadn't picked being a magicker at chargen.  It was still just manifesting what was there all along (you just didn't choose it).

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2104
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2020, 10:24:51 PM »
If the 'test' shows that anyone with a magickal subguild is in fact just that, that situation would have been entirely different though, wouldn't it? Seeing as they didn't have a codedly magickal nature until that point.

X-D

  • Posts: 5728
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2020, 10:32:06 PM »
Interesting that bit is rather hard to find and not mentioned elsewhere. Still, cool. So, I will have to agree with Brokkr.


Exclude mage subs from the discussion and....?
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

DesertT

  • Posts: 942
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2020, 10:32:31 PM »
Maybe this topic should be split?

 ::) :o :P
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Vex

  • Posts: 248
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2020, 02:20:07 AM »
I'd prefer an option to delay choosing your subclass, and you can choose it anytime in game.

This, is a very good idea.

Perhaps even, it could lead to additional in game options for advancement, wherein becoming a sworn in member of the various clans, comes with specialized training that is enticingly potent, but requires considerable investment within the clan. For noble houses, there could be Academy or Atrium (fighter and social/spy, for guards / aides, etcs) general choices, or a House specific specialization, for the T'zai Byn becoming Mercenary rank comes complete with a 'T'zai Byn Mercenary' subguild, or making Sergeant 'T'zai Byn Sergeant', and this sort of thing.

Naturally, the trade off would be that there is no 100% certainty you're going to make the cut, and you're without a subguild going forward, should you want to pursue this kind of career w/benefits. If you pick a sub, then join a clan, you wouldn't get to change or add a second sub, so it puts a lot of emphasis on how to advance your character and when to commit, rather than simply playing with a character building, for the best possible set of skills today.

It'd make career shopping, a lot more interesting than it is now, at least.

Anything to make the game more dynamic, is a huge benefit, imo.
"Mortals do drown so."

John

  • Posts: 4309
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2020, 05:07:02 AM »
No, Lotion. Unless you're in Tuluk. In Allanak, they do have the gemmed.
Incorrect. Over the years Allanaki Templars can, and have, killed people who were unaware of their magick nature under the pretense that they were a rogue/hidden witch.

Whether or not this has happened more recently cannot be said for sure without revealing IC information that we're not allowed to reveal. But it has definitely happened in the past and so declaring that it can't happen isn't accurate and does setup false expectations.

ICly Templars can kill almost anyone they want for any reason they feel like.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 05:15:37 AM by John »

John

  • Posts: 4309
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2020, 05:14:18 AM »
So I am clear, if you are unmanifested, you can still be identified and persecuted? Is this correct?
You can't actually draw any conclusion from Brokkr's statements. Unmanifested people can definitely be suspected for being a witch. A player could be metagaming in their suspicion. Or they may simply intuit it based on subconscious feelings. Or they might have IC tools that reveal it to them.

Staff definitely updated how certain spell(s) act towards unmanifested witches. They said so in the release notes. They declined to tell us WHICH spells at the time and Brokkr is choosing to label anyone who does want that certainty a dirty little metagamer (albeit one who doesn't rise to the level of open punishment). So we're unlikely to get that certainty.

I would just assume players have a wide variety of methods both IC and OOC at their disposal to work out if you're an unmanifested witch and act accordingly. I know I sometimes guess OOCly if someone is a witch with zero evidence (I even manage to blindly guess their element). Why did I make that OOC guess? No idea. It was 100% subconscious. Turns out I did have sufficient OOC information to make the guess. But I never did so consciously.

Although in that specific case I did not have my character make the same guess. Another set of circumstances I might have had my character make that guess. Making wild guesses is fun. Especially when you're right :P You might accuse me of metagaming. But I'm not actively doing so and we all make wild guesses all the time IRL that we can't say why we're making it.

Ultimately eradicating all metagaming in a multiplayer game is impossible and undesirable. It's much better to mold the metagame so it reinforces OOCly how you want PCs to act and think ICly.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 05:16:57 AM by John »

NinjaFruitSalad

  • Posts: 60
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2020, 10:32:33 AM »
I think sometimes if a character just has a strange or suspicious description, or maybe the way they are dressed or carry themselves, it might also make a templar think they are magickal.  Don't know if all those suspicions were right, though.