Author Topic: Subclass Swap  (Read 1549 times)

DesertT

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Subclass Swap
« on: March 29, 2020, 11:34:32 AM »
Would there be a way to implement a Subclass Swap?

When I create a character, sometimes I'm not quite sure just where they'll start off. 

OR, something happens and I find myself in an entirely different scenario than I anticipated or intended.

How hard would it be to say something like, Hey, within the first 3 days of play, if you want to sub out ONCE, you can.  :D

Just Curious!!

Anybody else on board?   ;D
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mansa

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2020, 11:36:14 AM »
I'd prefer an option to delay choosing your subclass, and you can choose it anytime in game.
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DesertT

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2020, 11:43:51 AM »
I'd prefer an option to delay choosing your subclass, and you can choose it anytime in game.
This'll work too!!
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Cabooze

  • Posts: 311
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2020, 02:32:21 PM »
I'd prefer an option to delay choosing your subclass, and you can choose it anytime in game.

I think this would be the best choice. It would allow for genuinely fun manifestation roleplay without some turd ruining the fun and sniffing your gickiness before your character is even aware of it, themselves.

WarriorPoet

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2020, 08:30:33 PM »
I have had this happen before. I would have happily burned a karma point to switch.
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Krath

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2020, 08:39:58 PM »
I'd prefer an option to delay choosing your subclass, and you can choose it anytime in game.
This!
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X-D

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2020, 09:25:18 PM »
I am...oddly, on board with the mansa suggestion.
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Rokal

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2020, 08:10:07 PM »
I support the subclass selection after creation idea too .

Lotion

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2020, 11:34:21 PM »
I like this idea.

rinthrat

  • Posts: 162
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2020, 04:09:44 PM »
I'd prefer an option to delay choosing your subclass, and you can choose it anytime in game.

I think this would be the best choice. It would allow for genuinely fun manifestation roleplay without some turd ruining the fun and sniffing your gickiness before your character is even aware of it, themselves.

I think this is fixed. Afaik if you're unmanifested, you're also undetectable by code. Can staff confirm this?

Brokkr

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2020, 11:36:31 PM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

mansa

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2020, 12:03:32 AM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

Delaying the choice of what subclass you want to have with your character will allow your character to decide what sort of jobs they want to do and what sort proficiency they want to reach for, after they are in game and making decisions in game.  It allows more flexibility of skills/characterization if the initial concept doesn't work out immediately.

Consider these examples:

Character chooses to make a Fighter.
They start in game, they try and join the T'zai Byn and they can't find a Sergeant, but they eventually find someone from Salarr.  They hit it up at the bar and the Salarri says, 'Can you make armor?'
You reply, 'No, but I can learn!'
Pick Subclass - Armormaker


Character chooses to make a Craftsperson.
They search and search for a Kadian because they want to join up with that house, but can't find anyone.  They eventually meet up with the Steel Talon militia, and the Templar recruits them into it.  The soldiers force them to start combat training.
Pick Subclass - Guard


It's not about meta gaming and code knowledge.  It's about being able to pick skills that you want your character to learn after they've been in game and have decided who they really want to be, and what jobs are hiring and training.
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DesertT

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2020, 12:11:52 AM »
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

X-D

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2020, 12:26:34 AM »
Seconded.

Besides....for those of us who like organic growth, it just seems badass that I could at least fake it depending on what happens to my PC. I plan on making a hunter trader...but shit happens and I end up doing something totally different...and hey, my PC actually gets to learn something in that direction.
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BadSkeelz

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2020, 01:01:10 AM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

Brokkr's right. You guys should metapregame and app in knowing exactly what you're going to do from chargen. /sarcasm

It's less metagamey being able to choose a subclass based on experienced circumstances than it is choosing one at chargen.
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Lotion

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2020, 02:11:11 AM »
+1 to what mansa wrote

Brokkr

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2020, 11:52:53 AM »
Positional context Mansa.

Maybe try looking at the part of the thread immediately preceding my comments.  Although I guess this is a good example of how folks in recent years tend to take things Staff post in the worst, most personal way possible.  Did not feel the need to quote, since the post explicitly says

Can staff confirm this?

Other than that, when originally rolled out years ago, subclasses were supposed to be skills you picked up in your background, before you started play.  As such, you never really focused on them, thus the original names and skill levels.  Class skills were the skills in the area you focused on after you started play.  Admittedly, we have come a ways since then.

I don't really have an opinion other than an actual subclass swap would be a nightmare.

mansa

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2020, 12:17:38 PM »
Positional context Mansa.

Maybe try looking at the part of the thread immediately preceding my comments.  Although I guess this is a good example of how folks in recent years tend to take things Staff post in the worst, most personal way possible.  Admittedly, we have come a ways since then.

My friend, I can't possibly take anything you say personally.  :)   I admit I view the GDB and threads so that I don't think anybody is replying to anything specific without an inline quote.


...
I don't really have an opinion other than an actual subclass swap would be a nightmare.

The swap itself?  Yes.

The delayed selection?  No, I think it's possible.  In my opinion, the tricky thing would be magicker subclasses, because we don't want to have too many of them in game.  Perhaps if someone wants to pick a magicker subclass, they need to submit a request or some other limiting gate.


I would probably imagine something like this:


0. Teleport character to subclass selection NPC / Room.
1. Display to character subclass selection.  (minus Magicker Subclasses)
2. Character picks subclass selection.
3. Check characters's current skill list.   If not on current skill list, add to current skill list.
4. Check characters's current skill list and do a verification check if current skill %'s should pop next skill's branch.
5. Return character to previous room.
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Krath

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2020, 02:12:25 PM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

Delaying the choice of what subclass you want to have with your character will allow your character to decide what sort of jobs they want to do and what sort proficiency they want to reach for, after they are in game and making decisions in game.  It allows more flexibility of skills/characterization if the initial concept doesn't work out immediately.

Consider these examples:

Character chooses to make a Fighter.
They start in game, they try and join the T'zai Byn and they can't find a Sergeant, but they eventually find someone from Salarr.  They hit it up at the bar and the Salarri says, 'Can you make armor?'
You reply, 'No, but I can learn!'
Pick Subclass - Armormaker


Character chooses to make a Craftsperson.
They search and search for a Kadian because they want to join up with that house, but can't find anyone.  They eventually meet up with the Steel Talon militia, and the Templar recruits them into it.  The soldiers force them to start combat training.
Pick Subclass - Guard


It's not about meta gaming and code knowledge.  It's about being able to pick skills that you want your character to learn after they've been in game and have decided who they really want to be, and what jobs are hiring and training.

This
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rinthrat

  • Posts: 162
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2020, 04:09:01 AM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

It's relevant for the discussion, so we don't talk about how to fix a problem that may no longer exist and that Cabooze seemed to worry about. I honestly don't see a great potential for metaplay here. I'll also shut up now  :)

azuriolinist

  • Posts: 472
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2020, 07:19:48 AM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

A player playing an unmanifested magicker would need to know. The entire concept is turned upside down because the code, even though they haven't manifested, says otherwise.

Brokkr

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2020, 11:08:56 AM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

A player playing an unmanifested magicker would need to know. The entire concept is turned upside down because the code, even though they haven't manifested, says otherwise.

To play the character in that situation you don't need to know the outcome of the code.  Knowing the code just helps you avoid potentially negative situations, maybe.  That is precisely meta play.

th3kaiser

  • Posts: 485
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2020, 11:53:10 AM »
Is this possibly just a matter of perspective? I think a lot of players view people being able to detect unmanifested mages as a bug. Is this one of those things that staff think are a feature?

Bugs get talked about, features we keep sekrit for reasons.

But in any case, I'm not against this idea for non-karma subs. You wanna wait? You get the base subs.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2104
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2020, 04:34:28 PM »
Why would anyone need to know, outside of meta-gaming with their code knowledge?

Play how you would play.

A player playing an unmanifested magicker would need to know. The entire concept is turned upside down because the code, even though they haven't manifested, says otherwise.

To play the character in that situation you don't need to know the outcome of the code.  Knowing the code just helps you avoid potentially negative situations, maybe.  That is precisely meta play.

Its not though, in fact its the exact opposite.

It cuts down on out of character behavior, they would now know whether or not their supposedly unmanifested character, who had never shown any signs of magicks, would show up as being magickal just because they picked a subclass. Getting pegged as magickal before you are ready can be concept ruining.

And all because some other player behind their keyboard likes to abuse the mechanics of finding out if PC's are magickal or not by just testing at random?

It cuts down on out of character behavior, by allowing them to actually interact with Templars and not have an anxiety attack about whether or not they are going to be found it. Regardless of whether or not they actually can be found out prior to manifesting.

Brokkr

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2020, 06:30:19 PM »
It cuts down on out of character behavior, they would now know whether or not their supposedly unmanifested character, who had never shown any signs of magicks, would show up as being magickal just because they picked a subclass.

If they are making the decision to act one way or another, because they know the code is going to act in a certain way, that is meta behavior.  You aren't giving a contrary example here.  You are giving an example of someone acting in a meta way.  Just because some of us are used to a certain level of meta and this doesn't rise to that level, doesn't mean this behavior isn't meta, it just means some of us are jaded.

Lets say there are two entirely reasonable alternatives.

  • Things that detect whether you are an elementalist are only able to do so after some life event.
  • Things that detect whether you are an elementalist can do so from birth, since all elementalists have that affinity from birth.

If either is plausible IC'ly, then you don't need to know which of the two is actually correct.  The desire to change one's play because one knows which of the two is correct is quite obviously meta, because there is no basis for a character IG to know which is correct.

Lotion

  • Posts: 35
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2020, 10:40:00 PM »
Is there much of a precedent of players making unawakened gicks and doing "objectively good non meta rp" only to be rewarded with death by templar? Sounds like it would definitely make me salty for having wasted a few month of karma regen.

azuriolinist

  • Posts: 472
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2020, 10:43:25 PM »
No, Lotion. Unless you're in Tuluk. In Allanak, they do have the gemmed.

Krath

  • Posts: 2601
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2020, 11:03:48 PM »
So I am clear, if you are unmanifested, you can still be identified and persecuted? Is this correct?
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

Hauwke

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2020, 11:22:49 PM »
So I am clear, if you are unmanifested, you can still be identified and persecuted? Is this correct?

That is definately the vibe I am getting.

mansa

  • Posts: 9849
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2020, 11:57:08 PM »
So I am clear, if you are unmanifested, you can still be identified and persecuted? Is this correct?

That is definately the vibe I am getting.

Most up to date information:
Sept 21st releast notes
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1037913.html#msg1037913

Naathvaan commenting:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52143.msg1037969.html#msg1037969
Brokkr commenting:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52143.msg1037992.html#msg1037992
New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


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Krath

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2020, 12:29:40 AM »
Mansa, I appreciate you sending us gdb post, but I am seeking an official answer from staff.
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

Narf

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2020, 12:47:52 AM »
Mansa, I appreciate you sending us gdb post, but I am seeking an official answer from staff.

Those are release notes about code changes. They're pretty official.

Cabooze

  • Posts: 311
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2020, 12:55:48 AM »
So I am clear, if you are unmanifested, you can still be identified and persecuted? Is this correct?

That is definately the vibe I am getting.

Most up to date information:
Sept 21st releast notes
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1037913.html#msg1037913

Naathvaan commenting:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52143.msg1037969.html#msg1037969
Brokkr commenting:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52143.msg1037992.html#msg1037992

Thank you, this dismisses a lot of my issues regarding this when referring to magickal subguilds.

However, I think Mansa's stance in being able to choose your subguild based on situation should be considered as well. Sure, this wouldn't apply to magickal subguilds for the given reasons above, but surely there could be a way to set a 'placeholder' subguild during character creation, which makes a distinction between gicker subs and mundane ones, allowing you to select a mundane sub later on if it fits your character's growing story (and if you had enough karma when you created that character).

Hauwke

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2020, 04:59:04 AM »
I don't get how hard it was for Brokkr to just say it again, instead of being obtuse and arguing the point of it all.

It isn't hard to type: No, if you have never used magick you won't be able to be outed.

Brokkr

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2020, 11:52:04 AM »
That may be what I implied by what I said, but I didn't say that, exactly.  I happen to like secrets and surprises and folks having to cross their fingers.

As for the subclasses, Templars currently don't start the game with a subclass, we remove it when we set them up (literally subclass:  none).  So that is a thing.  When they earn a subclass, it is a bit of a pain to add it onto the templar, as we have to manually adjust the skills themselves.  The subclass just ensures that the skill doesn't disappear first time they use it.

mansa

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2020, 01:42:31 PM »
...
As for the subclasses, Templars currently don't start the game with a subclass, we remove it when we set them up (literally subclass:  none).  So that is a thing.  When they earn a subclass, it is a bit of a pain to add it onto the templar, as we have to manually adjust the skills themselves.  The subclass just ensures that the skill doesn't disappear first time they use it.

That's an interesting peek behind the curtain!


It seems like the intent of the Templar class is ultimately the game design that I'd like to have going forward with the regular classes.  (*magick subclasses differ, naturally)
Cool.
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X-D

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2020, 09:23:31 PM »
So, I was all set to agree with Brokkr...I know, GASP...but then I did some searching and well, nowhere do the docs state that the elemental bond is from birth. It implies, but does not directly state...and according to the rules, without direct statement then it is false.

So...

Brokkr, Are you directly stating that the elemental bond is from birth? And this is known IG?

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Krath

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2020, 12:18:41 AM »
So, I was all set to agree with Brokkr...I know, GASP...but then I did some searching and well, nowhere do the docs state that the elemental bond is from birth. It implies, but does not directly state...and according to the rules, without direct statement then it is false.

So...

Brokkr, Are you directly stating that the elemental bond is from birth? And this is known IG?

Brokkr?
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

Brokkr

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2020, 07:48:58 PM »
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Elementalist%20Culture

Quote
They were born this way and that's that.

DesertT

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2020, 07:52:20 PM »
So how hard would it be to allow subclass selection once a character has started play?

I think that's the big question here and what I was trying to get to all along.

 ;D
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Cabooze

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2020, 09:26:39 PM »
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Elementalist%20Culture

Quote
They were born this way and that's that.

But that's not to say there haven't been instances where an element(?) picks someone to inhabit. I can speak readily to attest to this, being that it has occurred to a character of mine that died over a year ago, now. There's some inconsistencies going on.

So how hard would it be to allow subclass selection once a character has started play?

I think that's the big question here and what I was trying to get to all along.

 ;D

I concur and I want an answer to this, personally. Perhaps create some sort of method to re-submit your character sheet in a method that doesn't give a blanket wipe to your existing skills?

Brokkr

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2020, 10:18:48 PM »
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Elementalist%20Culture

Quote
They were born this way and that's that.

But that's not to say there haven't been instances where an element(?) picks someone to inhabit. I can speak readily to attest to this, being that it has occurred to a character of mine that died over a year ago, now. There's some inconsistencies going on.

Pretty sure I know what you are talking about off the top of my head.  That was just staff manifesting someone(s) that hadn't picked being a magicker at chargen.  It was still just manifesting what was there all along (you just didn't choose it).

Hauwke

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2020, 10:24:51 PM »
If the 'test' shows that anyone with a magickal subguild is in fact just that, that situation would have been entirely different though, wouldn't it? Seeing as they didn't have a codedly magickal nature until that point.

X-D

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2020, 10:32:06 PM »
Interesting that bit is rather hard to find and not mentioned elsewhere. Still, cool. So, I will have to agree with Brokkr.


Exclude mage subs from the discussion and....?
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DesertT

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2020, 10:32:31 PM »
Maybe this topic should be split?

 ::) :o :P
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Vex

  • Posts: 248
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2020, 02:20:07 AM »
I'd prefer an option to delay choosing your subclass, and you can choose it anytime in game.

This, is a very good idea.

Perhaps even, it could lead to additional in game options for advancement, wherein becoming a sworn in member of the various clans, comes with specialized training that is enticingly potent, but requires considerable investment within the clan. For noble houses, there could be Academy or Atrium (fighter and social/spy, for guards / aides, etcs) general choices, or a House specific specialization, for the T'zai Byn becoming Mercenary rank comes complete with a 'T'zai Byn Mercenary' subguild, or making Sergeant 'T'zai Byn Sergeant', and this sort of thing.

Naturally, the trade off would be that there is no 100% certainty you're going to make the cut, and you're without a subguild going forward, should you want to pursue this kind of career w/benefits. If you pick a sub, then join a clan, you wouldn't get to change or add a second sub, so it puts a lot of emphasis on how to advance your character and when to commit, rather than simply playing with a character building, for the best possible set of skills today.

It'd make career shopping, a lot more interesting than it is now, at least.

Anything to make the game more dynamic, is a huge benefit, imo.
"Mortals do drown so."

John

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2020, 05:07:02 AM »
No, Lotion. Unless you're in Tuluk. In Allanak, they do have the gemmed.
Incorrect. Over the years Allanaki Templars can, and have, killed people who were unaware of their magick nature under the pretense that they were a rogue/hidden witch.

Whether or not this has happened more recently cannot be said for sure without revealing IC information that we're not allowed to reveal. But it has definitely happened in the past and so declaring that it can't happen isn't accurate and does setup false expectations.

ICly Templars can kill almost anyone they want for any reason they feel like.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 05:15:37 AM by John »

John

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Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2020, 05:14:18 AM »
So I am clear, if you are unmanifested, you can still be identified and persecuted? Is this correct?
You can't actually draw any conclusion from Brokkr's statements. Unmanifested people can definitely be suspected for being a witch. A player could be metagaming in their suspicion. Or they may simply intuit it based on subconscious feelings. Or they might have IC tools that reveal it to them.

Staff definitely updated how certain spell(s) act towards unmanifested witches. They said so in the release notes. They declined to tell us WHICH spells at the time and Brokkr is choosing to label anyone who does want that certainty a dirty little metagamer (albeit one who doesn't rise to the level of open punishment). So we're unlikely to get that certainty.

I would just assume players have a wide variety of methods both IC and OOC at their disposal to work out if you're an unmanifested witch and act accordingly. I know I sometimes guess OOCly if someone is a witch with zero evidence (I even manage to blindly guess their element). Why did I make that OOC guess? No idea. It was 100% subconscious. Turns out I did have sufficient OOC information to make the guess. But I never did so consciously.

Although in that specific case I did not have my character make the same guess. Another set of circumstances I might have had my character make that guess. Making wild guesses is fun. Especially when you're right :P You might accuse me of metagaming. But I'm not actively doing so and we all make wild guesses all the time IRL that we can't say why we're making it.

Ultimately eradicating all metagaming in a multiplayer game is impossible and undesirable. It's much better to mold the metagame so it reinforces OOCly how you want PCs to act and think ICly.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 05:16:57 AM by John »

NinjaFruitSalad

  • Posts: 60
Re: Subclass Swap
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2020, 10:32:33 AM »
I think sometimes if a character just has a strange or suspicious description, or maybe the way they are dressed or carry themselves, it might also make a templar think they are magickal.  Don't know if all those suspicions were right, though.