Author Topic: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to an alternative?  (Read 3285 times)

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2020, 10:40:41 PM »
I like the system as it is. I like that not all people are "born" equal, and that some are more naturally gifted than others. This mirrors real life, and gives people the opportunity to play a broad spectrum of characters from amazing to amazingly inept. With a point buy system, we'd end up with "best of" builds wherein people have rather cookie cutter stats depending on what classes they're playing.

I don't think the number of "exceptionals" needs to be reduced. I personally have not had a character with lots of exceptional stats, ever. That said, people might see others say that they have on the forums and have attribute envy, thinking if they don't get really high stats, they aren't as good. I think it's important for people to remember that for every person that gets multiple high stats on a character like that, there were likely 100 other characters that had much closer to average stats.

Not everyone gets to play a super-statted character. Just like not everyone gets to play an elementalist, or a sorcerer, or a psionicist. Asymetrical characters have been a part of the Armageddon culture for as long as it has been an RPI. It is part of Arm's identity.

See but the thing is is that people do this anyway. Certain classes get boosts and negatives (or no negatives) than others, so why are base stats random in this case? Those with flaws will have them based off their background, perfect specimens aren't even particularly favored if there isn't a character behind them. Randomness does not reduce cookie cutter style play, all it does is favor certain playstyles -- particularly ones that are safer than others. A dwarf with that low of strength could have the focus of becoming stronger, and since you've made the character BEFORE STATS HAVE BEEN ISSUED, it's quite clear that stats aren't intended to make up your character's distinct genetics. At most you could make your physical description vague and add to that with tdesc but I rarely ever see that amongst PCs save hair and injuries etc.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 10:52:58 PM by Strongheart »

Halcyon

  • Posts: 305
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2020, 11:31:39 PM »
For those of you who remember 1st and 2nd edition dnd, shifting to point buy in that system didnt work.   Like Arm, there were real or perceived thresholds of stat viability that forced min maxing.    A 16 str was +1 to damage.  A 17 str was +1 to hit and +1 to damage.   An 18 strength could have an additional role for a range of +1/+3 to +3/+6.    A 19 str was +3 to hit +7 to damage.   If you could talk your Dm into a +1 to str race, there was absolutely no reason to ever choose a lower point but if you cared about melee combat.

I believe Arm would suffer the same problem on a point buy system.   The whole stat system would have to be reworked.
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Brokkr

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Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2020, 12:21:12 AM »
Some of you seem to be suffering from a misperception or misinformation.

Roll (based on race)
Age adjustments
Class/subclass adjustments

The lowest possible Roll is is the lowest tier of below average.  If you are seeing poor or lower, it is not because of the Roll, but because of the adjustments that follow it.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2020, 12:55:49 AM »
For those of you who remember 1st and 2nd edition dnd, shifting to point buy in that system didnt work.   Like Arm, there were real or perceived thresholds of stat viability that forced min maxing.    A 16 str was +1 to damage.  A 17 str was +1 to hit and +1 to damage.   An 18 strength could have an additional role for a range of +1/+3 to +3/+6.    A 19 str was +3 to hit +7 to damage.   If you could talk your Dm into a +1 to str race, there was absolutely no reason to ever choose a lower point but if you cared about melee combat.

I believe Arm would suffer the same problem on a point buy system.   The whole stat system would have to be reworked.


Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2020, 12:58:38 AM »
Some of you seem to be suffering from a misperception or misinformation.

Roll (based on race)
Age adjustments
Class/subclass adjustments

The lowest possible Roll is is the lowest tier of below average.  If you are seeing poor or lower, it is not because of the Roll, but because of the adjustments that follow it.

Always good to know!

John

  • Posts: 4300
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2020, 02:49:57 AM »
Some of you seem to be suffering from a misperception or misinformation.

Roll (based on race)
Age adjustments
Class/subclass adjustments

The lowest possible Roll is is the lowest tier of below average.  If you are seeing poor or lower, it is not because of the Roll, but because of the adjustments that follow it.
while I appreciate the attempt to correct misconceptions, I dont think poor vs below average is really germane to anything anyone said.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 03:34:00 AM by John »

Inks

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Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2020, 04:19:34 AM »
Why would we have balanced stats? Arm isn't a game with balanced classes/subclasses by intentional design. Is gud as is ayy.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 04:21:16 AM by Inks »
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Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2020, 05:26:06 AM »
Why would we have balanced stats? Arm isn't a game with balanced classes/subclasses by intentional design. Is gud as is ayy.

+1 lol

JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 210
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2020, 06:17:50 AM »
I like things the way they are too. Very rarely do I roll up a PC that doesn't have decent stats. I know for sure I've never seen all poor, or all below average for that matter. And as much as I die, I've been through a lot of em over the years.
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Vex

  • Posts: 246
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2020, 03:00:27 PM »
Yes, if we want to take away the "won stat lottery, can kill the world" and "lost stat lottery, suicide/reroll" mindsets.

No, if we want to keep it.

I really, do not think, in the current era of gamers, that having the option is ever going to be a negative. Balance it around never being able to buy a stat past excellent, but able to hit exceptional (or poor instead of below average as the roll floor), for people who preference dice rolling. Or allocate number of points to spend semi-randomly, and let people decide how to distribute them, from a base of average across the board.

I can totally see why people suicide characters, with four line minimal effort descriptions, until they get God stats, especially STR, because the system is as such, that having anything less than that, basically makes you meat-to-eat for the people who do, no matter how much time/effort you invest, unless you're packing magickal compensation.

It is, imo, less an issue of coded balance, and more an issue of smoothing out some of the insane power spike STR or certain races offers that entices people to obsess over it, and making people feel good about investing in their character, by not making them feel like they've already lost, as soon as they see mediocre stats.
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triste

  • Posts: 112
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2020, 06:10:49 PM »
Yes, if we want to take away the "won stat lottery, can kill the world" and "lost stat lottery, suicide/reroll" mindsets.

Anyone who suicides over stats is missing the point of an RPI. Not all human beings are born with a physiology to become Olympic Weightlifters. If you are suiciding any character who doesn't have Absolutely Incredible strength that is more of a reflection on the player than on the game itself.

If you want to change those mindsets, remind people that He-Man isn't the only viable concept. The beauty of an RP focused game is all concepts are viable.

People who are stat obsessed brush me off as some kind of role play elitist for having this opinion but it isn't elitism to be open to roleplaying concepts besides He-Man.

Variety is the spice of life and good roleplay. I like that some of my characters have been average people, some heroic, and all have had interesting fates that were not defined by stats. Letting stats define the fate of your character to the extent that you suicide [against the theme of survival itself] is unequivocally bad roleplay. Few things are unequivocally bad roleplay but that is.

Let's not pretend that suiciding over stats is in any way justified by good reasons, like good roleplay. It's not.


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Brokkr

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  • Posts: 937
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2020, 06:11:30 PM »
Some of you seem to be suffering from a misperception or misinformation.

Roll (based on race)
Age adjustments
Class/subclass adjustments

The lowest possible Roll is is the lowest tier of below average.  If you are seeing poor or lower, it is not because of the Roll, but because of the adjustments that follow it.
while I appreciate the attempt to correct misconceptions, I dont think poor vs below average is really germane to anything anyone said.

Hmm, you are right!  I misread something that was said, about having all stats "above average" as "below average".  I guess I should have posted something about understanding what average means.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2020, 06:21:49 PM »
Yes, if we want to take away the "won stat lottery, can kill the world" and "lost stat lottery, suicide/reroll" mindsets.

Anyone who suicides over stats is missing the point of an RPI. Not all human beings are born with a physiology to become Olympic Weightlifters. If you are suiciding any character who doesn't have Absolutely Incredible strength that is more of a reflection on the player than on the game itself.

If you want to change those mindsets, remind people that He-Man isn't the only viable concept. The beauty of an RP focused game is all concepts are viable.

People who are stat obsessed brush me off as some kind of role play elitist for having this opinion but it isn't elitism to be open to roleplaying concepts besides He-Man.

Variety is the spice of life and good roleplay. I like that some of my characters have been average people, some heroic, and all have had interesting fates that were not defined by stats. Letting stats define the fate of your character to the extent that you suicide [against the theme of survival itself] is unequivocally bad roleplay. Few things are unequivocally bad roleplay but that is.

Let's not pretend that suiciding over stats is in any way justified by good reasons, like good roleplay. It's not.

Zalanthas is a work of fiction and the characters we play are too. Our only sense of control over our characters is their origin, who they, what they are, and the things they're capable of. Otherwise, why not just let staff make the characters and we'll choose to play them?

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2020, 06:26:18 PM »
And I'm rather tired of this "let's shame those who enjoy the game aspect of the game". Armageddon didn't start off as an RPI and while I do indeed understand why people feel the need for workable stat rolls, why not just replace this temptation altogether? I'm not suggesting point buy necessarily, there are other systems people have suggested that would do the current game's system better.

triste

  • Posts: 112
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2020, 06:31:17 PM »
I am not shaming anyone (as predicted I am getting the "You are an elitist" retort). I am saying [1] variety is good, I personally do not see the appeal of homogeneity or a game where everyone is equally megabuff nor does it seem in setting as this is a mud about people, not Super Heroes [2] suiciding over stats is in direct violation of the docs around suicide/survival.

I am willing to compromise with a randomized system with some point allocation as mentioned by valeria but if everyone gets to allocate the same points suddenly you are going to see homogeneous concepts and suddenly people will start whining about that.

I like that, like old school DnD, we currently have a great degree of range. It leads to better roleplay.

If everyone is exceptional, no one is exceptional. Variety is better than sameness. People who suicide for stats are often times violating docs in an unjustified way. It also is an unfair exploit over people who are fine with average rolls. So if I am "shaming" anyone I didn't intend to, just saying following docs and focusing on roleplay is nobler than ignoring docs to powergame.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 07:19:08 PM by triste »


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triste

  • Posts: 112
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2020, 06:48:55 PM »
My argument doesn't shame or preclude anyone from doing anything. You can play he-man if you get the stat roll for it, awesome!! But if you roll a warrior with average strength instead of superhero strength, maybe it's time to roleplay more of a Robin Hood type who survives with cunning and wits. Don't just kill the concept off if you can. Self worth isn't tied to stats! That low stat roll character you have might end up being your most epic and accomplished character and that sort of variety is great.


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X-D

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Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2020, 07:08:36 PM »
Against point buy.

Game already homogenized enough with the new classes. Since you cannot be exceptional by class anymore, least you have the chance by stats.
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Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2020, 07:12:49 PM »
Okay, changing the thread name.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2020, 07:17:34 PM »
Against point buy.

Game already homogenized enough with the new classes. Since you cannot be exceptional by class anymore, least you have the chance by stats.

Point buy or an alternative would allow for more specialisation, not less. The changes for the current classes did make specialisation (the master of a few or one) less of a thing, I will agree to a degree, mostly because of the points/ceilings for the skills.

Delirium

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Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to an alternative?
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2020, 07:44:42 PM »
The real problem is that strength is OP as a stat. Don't get me wrong, I fucking love high strength combat PCs.

But it's still OP.

Narrow the range of strength to more closely reflect Darksun tabletop and slightly reduce its importance in combat and it won't be quite the end-all, be-all stat it currently is for combat-oriented classes.
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Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to an alternative?
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2020, 08:14:18 PM »
The real problem is that strength is OP as a stat. Don't get me wrong, I fucking love high strength combat PCs.

But it's still OP.

Narrow the range of strength to more closely reflect Darksun tabletop and slightly reduce its importance in combat and it won't be quite the end-all, be-all stat it currently is for combat-oriented classes.

Strength is so very important! From the amount of armor you can wear to how much you can carry, what constitutes catching your fall etc. I don't mind stats being awesome like that not one bit however....

My argument doesn't shame or preclude anyone from doing anything. You can play he-man if you get the stat roll for it, awesome!! But if you roll a warrior with average strength instead of superhero strength, maybe it's time to roleplay more of a Robin Hood type who survives with cunning and wits. Don't just kill the concept off if you can. Self worth isn't tied to stats! That low stat roll character you have might end up being your most epic and accomplished character and that sort of variety is great.

... stats should not make or break a character. He-Man isn't comparable to Robin Hood, they use almost entirely different skillsets. Robin Hood is a ranger whereas He-Man is a warrior! Stats are too important to a character's success in the survival of the game world, it's not even arguable. Social roles may not have to worry about this, they're not the ones contracted to slay the megafauna or powerful criminals of the wastes. He-Man stands out, he's no rogue who can nick a coinpurse from you, he's agile but in a different way. Robin Hood will use his dexterous abilities to takedown an individual, and his Merry Men aid him in guerrilla warefare as is their strategy. These are tactics that cannot be incorporated with the stat system in general if you think about it unlike D&D 5e.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to an alternative?
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2020, 08:19:41 PM »
And another thing, there's nothing stopping these Supermen adopting these tactics of their statistical lessers. Stats aren't something you can ridicule or enslave a person for in the game world like someone with magick unless you've got low stats of course. A high statted character will receive praise, for example: this gladiator defeats the other in a bout due to abritirary and coded statistical advantage, not because they RPed the event beautifully.

Quell

  • Posts: 273
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2020, 08:20:35 PM »
Against point buy.

Game already homogenized enough with the new classes. Since you cannot be exceptional by class anymore, least you have the chance by stats.

The more homogenized the rest of the player base the more you'll stand out by choosing to randomly roll while everyone else does point buy.

triste

  • Posts: 112
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #48 on: January 27, 2020, 08:27:39 PM »
Derp, screwed up posting from a phone
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 09:13:10 PM by triste »


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triste

  • Posts: 112
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to an alternative?
« Reply #49 on: January 27, 2020, 08:35:17 PM »
Against point buy.

Game already homogenized enough with the new classes. Since you cannot be exceptional by class anymore, least you have the chance by stats.

So you are admitting point buy leads to more similar concepts than dissimilar ones [as has been well observed by other posters]. Yup, not for it.

The more homogenized the rest of the player base the more you'll stand out by choosing to randomly roll while everyone else does point buy.

Were you going to write something additionally? Yeah, people who aren't one of four typical min/maxxed builds will stand out more, and overall you have less variety, by quoting without additional content are you implying it is a good thing? A lot of players voicing their opinions like variety and range more than cookie cutter minmaxxed builds.

Also kudos Delirium for also noting the elephant in the room of stats themselves being unbalanced and that being more of the issue


will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.