Author Topic: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to an alternative?  (Read 3288 times)

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to an alternative?
« on: January 26, 2020, 06:34:54 AM »
I personally believe that if point buy were implemented instead of the current system, it would promote balanced gameplay! Not only that, it would create an environment where no one needs to feel bad for getting poor stats or even middling ones (or feeling as if you have an unfair advantage with superior stats).

If hitpoints, stamina, and stun points were also dependent on a system not nearly entirely random, do you believe that would be fairer than what it is currently? Should races each have a standard baseline that can be modified to suit your character concept? These are what I feel to be a worthwhile discussion.

In anycase, another reason to implement a change such as this would be the fact that it allows people to concentrate more on their roleplay rather than their arbitrary stat advantages. Having seen this brought up in the past, I'd really like to see a strong consideration of this idea.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 07:13:20 PM by Strongheart »

Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2020, 06:44:14 AM »
I would like an option. Point buy /or/ Random. Hp, Stun, etc to remain entirely based on roll+stat, but the stats to be either Point Buy (if you absolutely positively /need/ at least passable stats for a character concept to work), or Random (if it's a throwaway and you're willing to risk bein surprised). Theres characters I've wanted to make who need at least, let's say, 'Good' wisdom for them to make sense, but then I rolled Poor. Point buy would mitigate those cases.

However, I don't think Point Buy should be the only option. Not by a long shot. There's stories out there and experiences that only possibly could ever have happened by someone managing to get good connections AND roll a fuckton of strength or endurance, etc. For the layperson who doesn't want to risk their baby 20-day-played hunter dying to something they've never seen before etc, Arm is already quite a samey experience as we all try to reach the point where the fun undiscovered stuff won't kill us instantly/survive log enough to see it - Point Buy Only would be horrible for the layperson, as it would reduce instances of surprise and fun unexpected rolls (& roles), even if just a bit - we need all the variety we can get.
Quote
It's always lizard time.

Quote
The Desert Bloom is a Greggs, tbh.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2020, 06:54:33 AM »
I'd definitely be pleased with that too! :)

My personal vendetta against randomized stats are: 1) I'm no gambler and don't much care for surprises good or otherwise. And 2) I'm OCD about not having a base to work with, I'll take a flat 100 hp as a human guaranteed over 123 hp randomly as one.

Though these aren't exactly valid arguments  ;D
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 06:59:51 AM by Strongheart »

Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2020, 07:21:36 AM »
I've always thought it'd be nice if you could steal a stat point from another stat and add it to one of your choosing post roll.

So like when you do say, feel you need the most possible AGI or STR or whatever, so you prioritize it, and come out with like Very Good. Which is okay but it's hardly remarkable. You could cannibalize another stat up to a certain limit. Maybe like allowing 2 stats points to shift and capping it so you can't boost a stat beyond Exceptional (since Absolutely Incredible seems like one of those things that maybe should stay in the lottery winnings category)

So then you end up with the ability to combine the random chance of the "super good roll" gambit, with a modest degree of manual allocation to allow for some tweaking after the fact if you're still not happy, and don't mind further sacrificing another stat.
You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2020, 07:46:44 AM »
Not a bad idea either! Preferably any system that allows to tweak some things or allow total allocation if possible. Considering classes and subclasses seem to have an effect on stats (purely observation no confirmation) it seems like there's kind of a system in place yet I feel it's not enough when it comes to that. I don't care for the lottery feel all too much still so I prefer Matisse's option more but again, that's a more appropriate setup than completely random (priorities aside).

Nao

  • Posts: 1999
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2020, 08:17:31 AM »
I would not like this at all. I don't want every character to have the same stats after players figure out the 'best' point allocation. I really like the variety we have right now, when it comes to stats. You don't get to assume that your two-day fighter can kill everyone that comes right out of chargen, because if you're unlucky? This fresh out-of-chargen PC rolled monster stats. I don't want an even playing field where time spent training is all that matters.

High agi and str also make it harder to raise your skills, because both result in fewer chances for skill gains. Directly for agi, because you miss less, and indirectly for str, because fights don't last as long. So I don't think bad stats are as crippling as people think, over some time played.
A rusty brown kank explodes into little bits.

Someone says, out of character:
     "I had to fix something in this zone.. YOU WEREN'T HERE 2 minutes ago :)"

Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2020, 08:35:38 AM »
Alternative:

"Flat base" option instead of point buy - every stat as 'above average', guaranteed, before age stat modification. That way those who NEED a guaranteed passability have it, but they're not going to be a meta build, they're just gonna have base survivability in order to GET that playtime.

Clarification: 'flat base' IN ADDITION TO randomised roll option.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 08:43:50 AM by MatisseOrOtherwise »
Quote
It's always lizard time.

Quote
The Desert Bloom is a Greggs, tbh.

Barsook

  • Posts: 8075
    • The Sense of Openness
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2020, 08:42:38 AM »
No thank you. I don't like to min max or play the stats that I pick for myself. I like randomness.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2020, 08:47:06 AM »
I've heard this argument a lot. And to that point, why bother playing a mundane character ever again? It's quite clear that an elementalist subclass scoffs in the face of all other subclasses when it's so easy to play a rogue mage with mundane abilities that never gets sniffed out -- I know this because I've played around many, many who do just that. People are going to play their concepts and not what is the best of the best if they care at all for the RPI game it is.

Anyone worth their salt can tell the difference between superior, middling, and lowly stat ranged characters based off experience alone. It's underwhelming and fundamentally flawed because when it doesn't underwhelm you it does the opposite: overhypes you. It creates this advantage solely on randomized numbers that makes your character objectively better than others, and no. There is no benefit to having either of those stats lower, considering the game has been somewhat altered combat wise to guarantee you miss once and awhile to receive fails so your character will eventually grow past that plateau.

Is there a lack of an incentive to train with better stats? Not at all, and not all characters are combat driven neither. You're saying that based off a system entirely random except for prioritization and class/subclass selection makes a character unique or doesn't present a problem? Because it's your RP and coded abilities that should determine who you are as a character and not the randomly selected numbers. Stats should not deviate you as a character, they are only part of the mold you cast in chargen, they're what supports your character's framework and what occurs after chargen is what is "random". Stats should not make or break a concept you're striving for, only your decisions and how the world reacts to them ought to.

So I ask you why then are certain stats dominant over others or higher ones better all around? Min-maxxing behaviour if the stats are balanced would never become an issue otherwise there is an even greater underlying issue in the mechanics that govern the point of these stats.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 08:51:34 AM by Strongheart »

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2020, 08:50:16 AM »
Alternative:

"Flat base" option instead of point buy - every stat as 'above average', guaranteed, before age stat modification. That way those who NEED a guaranteed passability have it, but they're not going to be a meta build, they're just gonna have base survivability in order to GET that playtime.

Clarification: 'flat base' IN ADDITION TO randomised roll option.

I use point buy loosely! That is another excellent idea for a balanced system that would allow people to not worry about stats so much.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2020, 08:53:12 AM »
If the lower end of stats had their benefits too, that'd still give that randomness you two crave (Nao and Barsook) and innately be much more fair.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 08:56:01 AM by Strongheart »

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2020, 09:09:59 AM »
Keep in mind health, stamina, and stun points too! Why can't there be a benefit to being on the lower ends of those? Maybe with lower health you would recover more quickly than those with higher health, and with stamina too because I've noticed the threshold of these regenning don't change much at all when you've got say a maximum of eighty health over one-hundred and ten. Of course I wish these were more based off your race and amount of endurance rather than yet another random calculation (that hinges on endurance only so much).

John

  • Posts: 4300
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2020, 10:42:06 AM »
IMO point buy has destroyed and homogenized D&D. I'd rather not see the same thing done to Arm. I would like to see the influences on stats that many of us know about formally documented.

In addition I'd like to see the stats made a bit more fairer. I've gone from poor, poor, poor, poor to above average, excellent, average, good. And vice versa. You can just straight up have a better or worse character based on pure chance. I'd like it if 120 points were invested in the stats (or whatever the average is), but how they are invested is still randomised (with influences like age and class then tacked on afterwards).

valeria

  • Posts: 6096
    • I have a writing page.
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2020, 11:45:55 AM »
I'm not a fan of pure point buy just because it makes it so easy to min/max (as I've also found in my D&D games).

I wouldn't mind a hybrid system, where you're given X stats, and then Y number of "bumps" that would allow you to bump the status you select to an addition level of points after your first roll, reroll, and reroll undo.  That would keep some of the randomness element, but allow people to modify a stat upward that they think is unplayable and give players a little more control.  The bump points could just be deducted from lowering the current stat-point allocation.
A Kuraci regular shouts, in sirihish:
     "Bad move, fool!"
A Kuraci regular slashes a filthy grey rat on its body.

triste

  • Posts: 112
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2020, 12:05:10 PM »
I'm not a fan of pure point buy just because it makes it so easy to min/max (as I've also found in my D&D games).

IMO point buy has destroyed and homogenized D&D. I'd rather not see the same thing done to Arm.

Completely agreeing with the above. I have played point buy / skill buy muds and get bored with them for these exact reasons. "Oh hi there, I see you are also an adventurer competent in 1on1 combat with exactly one ranged skill, minimal sneaking needed to kill mobs, and minimal skinning. And what are the one to three other skills you got for flavor, too?" If you end up with homogeneous concepts you also get homogeneous roleplay and suddenly you do not have the interesting scenarios that can come up when concepts are more out of the player's fine tuned control. Suddenly everyone has the strength required to wear the same armor, suddenly you don't have out of the norm surprising endurance to lead to an upset in the Arena foot race, etc. The only time I voice opinions on stuff like this is when it pertains to roleplay. Our current system favors roleplay more than powergaming which I like. Any modification would need to favor roleplay. Like Valeria said, maybe not a full point buy, but random stats with some elective bumps. But full point buy ironically leads to less variety and less variety means less interesting roleplay.


will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Dune Bunny

  • Posts: 66
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2020, 12:34:00 PM »
I'm also against a point buy method. Or against most things that would aim to push Armageddon more towards having 'cookie cutter' builds to get things done. (Yes, the warrior tank mages aren't my thing either.)

Between reroll/undo, and priority allocation, there's a very decent chance to get stats that are great for your class and concept. Sometimes, your character's 'genetics' just don't work out in their favor, or an old wound leaves them not as strong/agile as they could've been. Or that knock on the head as a kid left them a little less wise, etc. Sometimes that flaw could make for some lovely roleplay. Trying to find a way around that disadvantage in life, or even ultimately failing to do so, and paying the price. Make friends, shy away from the challenges that would be too much due to your poor stat, risk shame and humiliation by seeking an advantage from the gemmed/rogues. It's not all about bone swords and Amos' boots.  :)

Also, from experience, if you feel a stat makes your character unplayable, contact staff. They're not unreasonable by any means.

Just my 2 'sids!

Quell

  • Posts: 273
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2020, 02:58:27 PM »
I'd be in favor of getting the option.

I think people are overestimating the amount of min-maxing that would be done because of it. People that really want to dominate play will just keep rolling randomly and hoping for higher than average stats rolls, which should happen about 50% of the time for random rolls. A lot of people just don't like the randomness of it, or being unpleasantly surprised by stats rolls that don't match a concept and there's not much reason to force them too if the point buy will tend to stick characters in the middle-power range anyways (meaning min maxers will shy away). And sure, you can usually get the concept you want with the existing de-randomizers in the game. But you're still going to be stuck playing characters that are unpalatable to you a certain percentage of the time. That percentage drops to zero if you allow point buy. Why would you want it any higher than that?


Lizzie

  • Posts: 8138
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2020, 03:00:39 PM »
What about something like best of 10?

Instead of reroll/reroll undo, you get your roll in chargen. If you don't like it, click the button and get a new roll. You can do this UP TO 10 times total. You can choose whichever of those 10 rolls you like best. Once you choose, you're done. No reroll or reroll undo. If you love your first roll, you can pick that one and not bother rolling another 9.

You could also prioritize. You'd do that first - you want wisdom given priority? Great. Each roll will be weighted with a +2 in wisdom.  It'll mean a -2 in something else, or a -1 in two something elses, but them's the roll of the dice.

Lastly - I would like to see the final NUMERIC valued stats be displayed for characters before they leave chargen. By that I mean HPs, Stun, Stamina, Mana.

Your 5th roll might be better in strength, and that makes you happy, but if your total HPs is only 89 because of the combination of other things, it'll suck.

So you really need to see ALL your stats before you pick one. I'd like to see that happen in chargen before you commit to a stat roll.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

mansa

  • Posts: 9810
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2020, 03:25:04 PM »
I feel like the game has allowed too many exceptional characters, and they have ruined the expectations of some of the players.

Since it's possible to have characters with multiple exceptional stats, people who have 'average' across the board seem "shit"



I think we should not have characters with more than one exceptional, or more than one poor.


New Players Guide: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,33512.0.html


You win Armageddon, congratulations!  Type 'credits', then store your character and make a new one

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2020, 03:25:45 PM »
I'm not a fan of pure point buy just because it makes it so easy to min/max (as I've also found in my D&D games).

I wouldn't mind a hybrid system, where you're given X stats, and then Y number of "bumps" that would allow you to bump the status you select to an addition level of points after your first roll, reroll, and reroll undo.  That would keep some of the randomness element, but allow people to modify a stat upward that they think is unplayable and give players a little more control.  The bump points could just be deducted from lowering the current stat-point allocation.

I'd much rather that than the current! And again to the posts above me, I use "point buy" loosely. My main gripe is that this randomised system fails to address what can be yet another thing staff doesn't have to concern themselves with. If stat allocation were actually balanced out instead of being wishy-washy in its balancing, I feel there'd be less people complaining, no more having to ask staff for bumps, or what have you etc.

For all the time I've played I have seen nothing but criticism of random statting, though there are those who are either tired of bringing it up or see no point in trying to. You really feel that stats, these numbers that artifically make up what you are should be random? It's a game of fiction and of creation, if you don't want to have a character wane from preexisting conditions then you shouldn't have to. And I stress again if point buy (a term I use lightly) would homogenize gameplay, wouldn't that just point to deeper flaws with the system?

Maybe it's something I just can't stand I guess. I cannot get over a game design that perpetuates better stats and if these stats somehow make gameplay generic, why are there favored or more optimal class/subclass combos at all? This is why I brought up mage subclasses! Back then when full guild mages were a thing, there was this balance to them since they were limited to their magey weaknesses. I think it's safe to assume that if you've picked a mage, you plan on using it's magick to whatever extent you're able to. Nowadays you've got these PCs running around with cheat codes in their backpocket because they can easily blend in as these quasi mages who never have to cast a spell if they don't want to. But the whole point of classes/subclasses is to use those skills you've chosen! Sometimes it's just a matter of when. And to stress that point, you're expected to use your psionic abilities as a psionicists or your magick as a sorcerer because that's why they're there: to be utilized.

This is why stats should not make up what your character is genetically but rather what you seek to make them. Epecially since the magick change doesn't reflect that at all, let alone sorcs where you've learned sorcery as a character hence why it's a role at all. You pick these classes/subclasses, your race, and your background because you're the one creating the concept. Does a writer make a fictional character who has features beyond the control of what they write? I don't think so.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 03:32:29 PM by Strongheart »

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2020, 03:28:55 PM »
Sorry about my rant! Read over Quell's, Lizzie's, and Mansa's posts -- totally agree with them in one aspect or another. I really just do not feel the current way is more favored than possibly a new one that incorporates far less chance.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 03:32:52 PM by Strongheart »

Heade

  • Posts: 865
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2020, 05:15:55 PM »
I like the system as it is. I like that not all people are "born" equal, and that some are more naturally gifted than others. This mirrors real life, and gives people the opportunity to play a broad spectrum of characters from amazing to amazingly inept. With a point buy system, we'd end up with "best of" builds wherein people have rather cookie cutter stats depending on what classes they're playing.

I don't think the number of "exceptionals" needs to be reduced. I personally have not had a character with lots of exceptional stats, ever. That said, people might see others say that they have on the forums and have attribute envy, thinking if they don't get really high stats, they aren't as good. I think it's important for people to remember that for every person that gets multiple high stats on a character like that, there were likely 100 other characters that had much closer to average stats.

Not everyone gets to play a super-statted character. Just like not everyone gets to play an elementalist, or a sorcerer, or a psionicist. Asymetrical characters have been a part of the Armageddon culture for as long as it has been an RPI. It is part of Arm's identity.
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Grogerif

  • Posts: 81
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2020, 08:59:42 PM »
I like random stats myself.  Most of the group I run for is point buy, and everything needs to be fair. But there can be a lot of fun in roleplaying the unfair.  Making that thief with poor agility, a dwarven warrior with very poor strength (have done before, it was amusing to have elves that could carry more then me. And I had fun with the character)  You can make such characters with point buy, but people rarely do. 

There was also a time when you couldn't prioritize your stats, or undo a reroll (and you had to wish up for a reroll in the first place) So they have taken steps to give you slightly less random.

Heade

  • Posts: 865
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2020, 09:50:55 PM »
I might be ok with the option to point buy stats if the choice to go random was clearly superior. For instance, with point buy, if you could only have enough points to guarantee above average stats across the board. And stats higher than "above average" would have a really steep increase in price, so if someone took a single stat much higher than that, they'd really pay for it in their other stats.

This would allow someone to choose point buy for a character concept that absolutely had to have above average or so in everything, but would still make the random choice the go to for a lot of people because it COULD be way better, and is rarely worse than above average across the board.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 09:52:50 PM by Heade »
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: Should Arm's stat rolls go from random to point buy?
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2020, 10:31:46 PM »
I might be ok with the option to point buy stats if the choice to go random was clearly superior. For instance, with point buy, if you could only have enough points to guarantee above average stats across the board. And stats higher than "above average" would have a really steep increase in price, so if someone took a single stat much higher than that, they'd really pay for it in their other stats.

This would allow someone to choose point buy for a character concept that absolutely had to have above average or so in everything, but would still make the random choice the go to for a lot of people because it COULD be way better, and is rarely worse than above average across the board.

Agreed!