Author Topic: A call for goodie two shoes  (Read 2534 times)

JohnMichaelHenry

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A call for goodie two shoes
« on: December 07, 2019, 10:16:36 AM »
Okay so, this came up in a chat with a friend and I thought it might be a good idea to put it out there.

I'd like to see more players take on the role of the 'good' guy or gal. It feels to me like the world is becoming ripe with those who always want to play the evil, manipulative, cunning sort with devious motivations, or just straight out murderous psychopaths. I do realize that this is only my perception of how things are, and perhaps I'm just seeing things through a different lens than I have in the past, so I am interested in what other opinions are on this, especially those that have been playing for a long while, as they would be better able to see changes in the player base taking place over time.

Please don't say, "But the tagline is Murder, Corruption and Betrayal!" I know that, and it is what makes Arm an interesting place to play, but imho, just because we have those things doesn't mean that every person in the world has to be a corrupt, betraying murderer. In fact, I'd argue that without more good people in the world, all three of those become commonplace and uninteresting.

Also, please don't be offended and think that I'm criticizing roleplay here. I'm not. I'd criticize myself before any of you, as many of my PC's seem to be the same sort of person and I am trying very hard to change that.

Okay, so let me have it! :) Go ahead and beat me up, I can take it I swear!
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
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ShaLeah

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2019, 10:51:04 AM »
I actually think there are too many nice people, heh.
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

LindseyBalboa

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2019, 10:57:27 AM »
I for one would welcome more devious, manipulative characters, or outright psychopaths. I feel like that's the minority.

Dar

  • Posts: 1554
Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2019, 11:21:51 AM »
At the end of the day, people should just roleplay their character. Nobody is inherently evil, or good.

I saw the kindest, most mild mannered characters turn absolutely murderous when in a position of power over others and those others are threatening them.

I also saw the most devious, corrupt psychopaths stay their hand when they got what they wanted.

And I think it's wonderful and we'll portrayed. Fear is often the seed of evil.

ShaLeah

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2019, 02:15:06 PM »
Fear is often the seed of evil.

Amazing and quotable.
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

Riev

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2019, 04:53:45 PM »
Based on recent experiences, there IS a lot of "Well, the way to institute lasting change is to kill people. Then you are an instrument of change and people know your name".

However, I DO think there are a lot of good people in Zalanthas, and many played by PCs. It just depends where you are. Allanak, currently and lore-wise, is not exactly the place I would go to expect someone to help out their fellow man for the good feels.

Maybe in a village, or a tribal setting, you would see this more.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Gentleboy

  • Posts: 159
Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2019, 05:22:28 PM »
If any of you know my characters, you know I try hard to play non-traditional types.

I think we need less white and black people. And not just indifferent/self-serving, but different types of thinkers than the normal.

There are a multitude of personalities in life and I don't think just because living in Zalanthas should make some of those traits disappear.

Be materialistic
Be arrogant
Be excitable
Be hot-tempered


Half-giant RPers do a great job of giving a variety of emotional and personality traits that other races don't have.

I hope this is on topic and finds itself to be relevant.

Cordon

  • Posts: 51
Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2019, 05:24:16 PM »
The worst ones know they have to hide it.. Never know until you dig deep.. My advice.. Dont trust someone until you really piss them off to see what they are made of.

Dracul

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2019, 07:35:32 PM »
Welcome to Armageddon?

Be especially distrustful of the nice, friendly people They are either a breed or they are playing you.
Veteran Newbie

kahuna

  • Posts: 229
Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2019, 08:16:07 PM »
There are good people, civilizations do not exist without them. Now whether PCs play them is another story.

Lizzie

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2019, 08:18:44 PM »
We ARE goodie two shoes. We're just misunderstood.
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Dune Bunny

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2019, 09:07:00 PM »
I'm not bad... I'm just rp'd that way.

Riev

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2019, 10:55:26 PM »
There are good people, civilizations do not exist without them. Now whether PCs play them is another story.

This is important to note.

Even in a tyranny, there are going to be good people. Charitable works, people who run shops, artists, etc. 'good' is malleable and subjective.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Bogre

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2019, 11:32:16 PM »
My characters are usually loyal, but not necessarily virtuous or good.

What makes the game interesting is multi-dimensional characters, as mentioned. You might be the kindest person to your tribe, and uncompromising with others. Conflict is best when -characters- are conflicted with themselves, not just because they are at cross purposes with another PC.
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WarriorPoet

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2019, 11:44:35 PM »
I refuse to be one or the other. Feed that rinthi girl because it is the nice thing to do. Then mon un fireball the elf out of pure spite.
We were somewhere near the Shield Wall, on the edge of the Red Desert, when the drugs began to take hold...

AdamBlue

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2019, 09:48:23 AM »
Every character is the hero of their own story.
You can absolutely play a person who is 'nice', whose sole goal is to be known as someone who is nice.
Then, when someone tries to take advantage of that kindness, you cut their head off, eat their brain, and fuck their skull, and then continue being 'nice'.

Alesan

  • Posts: 369
Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2019, 11:33:20 AM »
I like that we are not required to roleplay murderous, corrupted backstabbers. I would not be playing here if it was a required goal to murder or betray in every character's lifetime. These things happen organically due to the nature of the game world, not because we have a tagline that tells us to do these things.

The tagline isn't a goal post, it's a description of the world. Play whatever you want.

JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 212
Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2019, 05:29:49 AM »
It seems to me that from the responses so far, that perhaps it is my own perception that is skewed. Maybe that smiling, pretty girl at the bar really is into me, and doesn't wanna poison and rob me as soon as we are alone! Or maybe she does...

Anyway, thanks to all who posted. You all are great fun. Let's do some more.
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Michael Scott, The Warlock

HavokBlue

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2019, 01:44:26 PM »
It seems to me that from the responses so far, that perhaps it is my own perception that is skewed. Maybe that smiling, pretty girl at the bar really is into me, and doesn't wanna poison and rob me as soon as we are alone! Or maybe she does...

Anyway, thanks to all who posted. You all are great fun. Let's do some more.

The uncertainty is thematic, though. Zalanthas is a world where you should second guess the pretty girl at the bar. Not everyone at the bar wants to steal your boots, but someone probably does.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

FamousAmos

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2019, 04:57:12 PM »
I actually think there are too many nice people, heh.

Alesan

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2019, 05:16:05 PM »
I actually think there are too many nice people, heh.

Please explain what you mean by this? Both of you?

Hauwke

  • Posts: 2147
Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2019, 11:49:55 PM »
I think people cooperate too much, honestly. Quit being amenable to stuff just for the sake of something to do, it is out of character and weird.

HavokBlue

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2019, 01:49:11 PM »
I think people cooperate too much, honestly. Quit being amenable to stuff just for the sake of something to do, it is out of character and weird.

Play more PCs that take advantage of all the good-natured Amos' and Talias out there.
All the world will be your enemy. When they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.

ShaLeah

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2019, 02:50:35 PM »
I actually think there are too many nice people, heh.

Please explain what you mean by this? Both of you?

I mean that there are too many nice people..? I don't understand what's confusing about that statement.  Can you clarify what you're looking for specifically?
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

valeria

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2019, 03:14:34 PM »
My experience is pretty limited, but this is one of the few times I've actually felt there's a good balance between villains, heroes, and "I'm just living my life" sorts.
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Alesan

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2019, 04:13:59 PM »
I mean that there are too many nice people..? I don't understand what's confusing about that statement.  Can you clarify what you're looking for specifically?

What kind of kindness in Zalanthas do you consider unacceptable? How much kindness do you consider to be unacceptable? Do you want 9 out of 10 people your character meets to be murderous psychopaths, or just assholes? Or 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? What is your ideal Zalanthas? I don't ask this to be on some kind of mission, I'm genuinely curious about what your version of the game would be.

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5400
Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2019, 04:02:51 PM »
I mean that there are too many nice people..? I don't understand what's confusing about that statement.  Can you clarify what you're looking for specifically?

What kind of kindness in Zalanthas do you consider unacceptable? How much kindness do you consider to be unacceptable? Do you want 9 out of 10 people your character meets to be murderous psychopaths, or just assholes? Or 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? What is your ideal Zalanthas? I don't ask this to be on some kind of mission, I'm genuinely curious about what your version of the game would be.

It's not that black and white.

I don't find any -type- of kindness unacceptable.
Or any *amount* of true kindness being how you raise your kid on Zalanthas seems hard to justify if the world is supposed to be like so:

Quote from: Armageddon.org
... it is about living out a character's sometimes short and always difficult life in the harsh world, Zalanthas.


But ShaL you say, what if my character isn't REALLY kind, he/she is just PRETENDING to be kind to get XYZ off Amos and Amosina! XYZ can be whatever you want it to be, information (#1 need for anyone on Zalanthas trying to survive), money, sex, influence, whatever. Then bravo you're a normal Zalanthan, THAT's what's normal in a harsh world, to not do dick without some kind of benefit to you, yours and your cause.

Tribals are exceptions to that annnnnd that's where it gets even more complicated.

Being as those in charge are murdering raping pillaging tyrannical overlords who have MRPT babylords vying for more power and influence within the system while simultaneously keeping the masses under their silk-clad, burnished and slippered feet, the system depends on everyone staying in their lane. Kindness is a lane that is dangerous on Zalanthas.  I think. People would hear about it, wonder why you're being so nice, how much favor are you accumulating, what are you PLOTTING against our ministry, our city, our HIGHLORD. You know?

To surmise, the appearance of kindness, good, actual kindness, questionable (not bad). Both are individual choices made by the creator of the character.

Human beings as we are now are rarely all good or all evil, within us we are capable of atrocities or benevolence. I just think that on Zalanthas, having been born into (what we in THIS world would consider) the normal barbarities, subjugation, and financial, emotional and physical scarcity that ARE the normin Armageddon, the need to survive and thrive and continue existing would create the type of personality that is self serving FIRST and above all.

There are always exceptions to the norm. What we play is entirely up to us.




I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

Hauwke

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2019, 04:23:40 PM »
I think a lot of people misunderstand what 'harsh' means in the realm of Armageddon. It doesn't mean be an asshole just because you can be and it is sometimes fun to play.

No, it means that having fleas because that guy at the bar also had them and now everyone on Miners has them. It means going hungry because you didn't work a 14 hour shift today. It means getting barely enough water to keep hydrated enough that your skin isn't just the roughest thing ever. It means life is HARD, it doesn't mean everyone is an asshole. It just means that everyone is selfish as shit and also predisposed to being assholes.

Harmless

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2019, 07:13:38 PM »
I often play characters that the OP would probably call 'nice.'

That's what they see in my characters.

They aren't seeing the inner turmoil, the coldness, the lack of care for the life and welfare of my characters' perceived/believed enemies, the awful pain my characters have had to endure in their often very long-lived careers.

If you think I'm being nice, you just are on my side.

When you reroll, you might just call me a bitch.

I'm frequently targeted for PK so I am unsure that would be necessarily the case if I were truly "nice."

However, newer players think I am nice.

You get familiar with Zalanthas' flavor of harsh over time. It isn't always about being an overt asshole, as was said.
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Riev

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2019, 11:28:28 AM »
Someone needs resources, and you provide them? Chances are there is a cost.
They may seem nice, but you are paying them. Either in coin, trade, or they are getting something out of it.
Sometimes the "something" they get is your friendship, or a sense of trust.

Chances are there are no 'true' altruistic people in the game (or real life). I don't think it helps anyone to call out anyone 'being nice' as 'against theme'.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 212
Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2019, 11:54:10 AM »

Chances are there are no 'true' altruistic people in the game (or real life).

Ah. A true cynic. I have to say though, I'm glad I do not believe this. Perhaps it is true IG, which is what prompted me to start this thread, but from what I've seen so far, my perceptions are false.
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Michael Scott, The Warlock

triste

  • Posts: 279
Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2019, 12:10:53 PM »

Chances are there are no 'true' altruistic people in the game (or real life).

Ah. A true cynic. I have to say though, I'm glad I do not believe this. Perhaps it is true IG, which is what prompted me to start this thread, but from what I've seen so far, my perceptions are false.

There are evolutionary theories around altruism (and by extension "goodness") and to grossly simplify them for the sake of GDB debate it is a strategy to increase reproductive success for your group. Example, some animals in a pack might care for offspring they did not produce. I think being good and altruistic isn't common in Zalanthas but it 100% makes sense for tribal / group affiliated characters looking out for their own.
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Dar

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Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2019, 01:06:46 PM »
I remember the days when my pretty scary characters 'allowed' themselves to be raided, just because I wanted the then fledgling crimson wind to live and grow.

Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2019, 02:31:08 AM »
Just a disclaimer I am a novice player and dont post much. I agree with a few of the posts: There is too much black and white and not enough of the gray in the middle if we are talking about black being evil and white being good. There should be more of a bell curve with the median point being gray. It probably is more of a binomial curve with the median being dark gray and few people in the white or "good guy" section.

Why is this a point? I believe that with so much black and white and less of the nuanced gray position then characters retreat into their corners and dont interact because interaction means death. I could be off base but here are things I see. Examples:

1. Commoners leaving when a templar or noble enter a room. You know this happens. I have seen it done.
2. Very little in the way of non-death interaction from bad guys. There would be a perfect way to get some of the grittiness: Allow some other outcome than death at the hands of a guild type.
3. Very few PCs in the Arm. With the lack of competition why even try to fight the guild? (This is a guess on my part. I rarely see the "bad guys")

Riev

  • Posts: 5722
Re: A call for goodie two shoes
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2019, 09:29:00 AM »
1. Commoners leaving when a templar or noble enter a room. You know this happens. I have seen it done.
2. Very little in the way of non-death interaction from bad guys. There would be a perfect way to get some of the grittiness: Allow some other outcome than death at the hands of a guild type.
3. Very few PCs in the Arm. With the lack of competition why even try to fight the guild? (This is a guess on my part. I rarely see the "bad guys")

1. I have done this. In all honesty, it isn't always on PURPOSE, sometimes its morning and I have somewhere to be.
2. Personally, if I decide to engage in a situation where death is likely, I find that through roleplay I have a MUCH higher chance to only be maimed or just robbed. Do what your PC would do. Keep your eyes down. Follow directions. Don't immediately look, scan their face, copy down their mdesc. (that said, some people may just kill you anyway).
3. I have played Guild EXTENSIVELY. The Arm of the Dragon is not really MEANT to be "city cops".  They are soldiers, bred to fight in a war. They may chase criminals, out of boredom or because someone told them to. The Guild does not LIKE them, but they won't go out of their way to kill them (again, typically) unless the AoD decides to cut off the Guild's trade in some way, first. It only takes 2-3 PCs in either the AoD or the Guild to make things interesting, but there has to be an agreement to fight, not kill.

As to the last point, a lot of people roll Guild as the "Fuck the Templars we're going to kill them all wooo gangbangers!" and a lot of people roll AoD thinking they are going to clear crime from the city and crack some heads.

Honestly? Both the Guild and the AoD are just 'typical gangs'. They extort money from people, they enforce the 'law' in their respective areas. The AoD has Templars on their side, the Guild has an entire quarter of downtrodden hungry people willing to risk jail for a hit of spice.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.