Author Topic: Can we talk about ride?  (Read 1567 times)

kahuna

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Can we talk about ride?
« on: December 06, 2019, 10:52:37 AM »
I'm a bit confused about the changes made to ride. Logically if one had master ride back in the day you could dual wield, two handed, whatever. The idea was that a master rider didn't need their hands on the reins, so they could use whistles or guide the mount via their feet/legs. Now however for some reason we need to have knowledge of our weapon to do this? This really doesn't make sense to me. I'm okay with that being a deciding factor for those that don't get master ride, for instance guilds that branch ride thru use, or get it to only jman, or advanced, they could require skill in dual wield or two handed, after all if THEY are masters with their sword sure we can justify letting them use it while riding.

However I think the master ride classes have been done a disservice to remove the functionality of being a master rider. They should logically be able to do anything once they reach that level of riding acumen.

titansfan

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2019, 11:02:32 AM »
I agree with this.  The idea of fighting with my weapon is different than the idea of riding with my hands full.
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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2019, 11:29:15 AM »
I am finding this a little strange too. Especially since "dual-wield" appears to apply to basically anything held in the hands regardless of if it is a weapon. So if you are say, holding a bow and arrow, or a chisel and a bandage.. you can't ride, even though you probably don't plan to engage in a dual-wield battle with these objects.

I could see if weapon skill checks applied to actually USING weapons, like chance to get tossed off in a fight. Not coaxing the mount to move around.

Non-violent people ride animals too  :(

Riev

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2019, 11:32:08 AM »
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53544.0.html

Please see this link that Delerak found. It will explain it, but basically:

Stance (two handed, dual, etc) and your ride skill are both used to determine if you can no-hands ride.
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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2019, 11:39:34 AM »
I still don't entirely agree this feels natural, explicitly because it also applies the check to non-combat objects held in the hands.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 11:41:13 AM by ScramblesForPurchase »

kahuna

  • Posts: 229
Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2019, 11:44:18 AM »
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53544.0.html

Please see this link that Delerak found. It will explain it, but basically:

Stance (two handed, dual, etc) and your ride skill are both used to determine if you can no-hands ride.

Yes I am aware of those changes. I am more making the argument that realistically if you have master ride (as old rangers did) you should be able to dual wield, two handed or shield use ride as you desire.

I am not against those changes.. I am all for that system being kept but for those guilds that DO get master ride I think this would be a nice buff for them. It just doesn't make much sense that a master rider that can charge into battle, run over enemies gets a two handed sword and goes.. "Eh I can't even move..." Does it?

titansfan

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2019, 11:54:50 AM »
Its very jarring imo to be a great rider but not be able to move a smidge just because I'm holding a cup and teapot while earlier I was holding an axe and a shield. Nervous freezing?
"People all die for a reason....your reason? I didn't like you...."

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Riev

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2019, 12:25:23 PM »
I am not against those changes.. I am all for that system being kept but for those guilds that DO get master ride I think this would be a nice buff for them. It just doesn't make much sense that a master rider that can charge into battle, run over enemies gets a two handed sword and goes.. "Eh I can't even move..." Does it?

I could make an argument that it would make sense, but I wouldn't agree with it. I happen to agree with you, I just posted the link so anyone reading would (hopefully) be on the same page.

I think it is tricky enough knowing how to fight with two weapons, or a two-handed weapon, and when you add balancing atop an erratic beetle it can be difficult.

However, when it comes to JUST RIDING, I don't see the issue. If your Ride is sufficient, you can ride with two hands. Maybe just make the offense/defense you get from being mounted rely on your calculated weapon skill + ride.
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Brokkr

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2019, 03:32:06 PM »
So, you want to make it harder for people that get to master?  I mean, it makes zero sense that just because your max is master and you happen to be at advanced, you get to ride with stuff in your hands and someone else at the same skill level doesn't, just because you can get better, but haven't yet.

So I take it that you are arguing that if you reach [master] in riding, you can ride with stuff in your hands.  I mean, it is certainly easier to do so, as it is a combined cap.  And the truth is, very very few characters actually get to [master] riding.

As for why...I am going to make a huge leap and assume at least some of you ride.  So lets put you on a horse and put a rope in your hands and let you have a go at roping a yearling. Your ability to just get around is going to be dependent on how well you ride and how well you know how to use a rope.  If either of these things are missing, you are going to have one hell of a time. 

Even if I take an expert at dressage and put them on the horse, unless they have also done western pleasure they are going to have a heck of a time.  This isn't conjecture, my wife did dressage for years and when I went riding with with her the first time and asked her to open the gate she looked at me blankly, because you don't do that in dressage.  Despite being an advanced rider in her style, she couldn't do something I could do by the time I was 4.

So no.  Logically, you have to know how to ride AND you have to know what to do with what is in your hands (for example, with a shield, reins are in your shield hand, with two handed weight is important, with dual wield you rhands may or may not have the reins).


Refugee

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2019, 04:24:56 PM »
I always assumed a master rider was guiding with their seat and legs rather than reins during times of holding two weapons.

Medena

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2019, 05:31:07 PM »
However I think the master ride classes have been done a disservice to remove the functionality of being a master rider. They should logically be able to do anything once they reach that level of riding acumen.

I was used to playing legacy rangers with master ride and holding whatever I wanted in my hands.  So when I recently played a scout, I was a bit dismayed to find I could not ride holding a two-handed weapon because I was not skilled in that style yet.   So I know where you are coming from.  I put it down to not having master ride though.

However, I am wondering what classes do get master ride these days?  AFAIK only Stalker gets it now.
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Fenneko

  • Posts: 73
Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2019, 06:27:16 PM »
The new code and cutoffs make it harder to ride without reins but eventually it can be overcome. It increased the benefit of ride boosting gear like riding gloves. Ride boosting gear is sold and found in only a few odd places in game. Dual wield is, for some reason, a lot easier to train than two handed weapons.

X-D

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2019, 06:28:04 PM »
I do not think it should apply to non-weapon items. That is rather silly.

Other then that, I mostly agree with Brokkr. Riding and using a bow at the same time...Good luck if you are not skilled in both. Riding while holding a beer in one hand and a sandwich in the other, I could do when I was 6...Well, a coke and a sandwich. Beer and a sandwich now.

And the above points is where I do not agree with how this is all coded. Why do I need to know how to use something in order to -Ride- with it in hand?

Now if you say I cannot fight while dual wielding because I do not know how to dual wield swords well enough to consider doing it mounted then I would agree. But If I am simply carrying a pair of swords, Well, they could be rocks or Ginka or just about anything, they are simply objects, you are not using them.
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kahuna

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2019, 08:55:17 PM »
I do not think it should apply to non-weapon items. That is rather silly.

Other then that, I mostly agree with Brokkr. Riding and using a bow at the same time...Good luck if you are not skilled in both. Riding while holding a beer in one hand and a sandwich in the other, I could do when I was 6...Well, a coke and a sandwich. Beer and a sandwich now.

And the above points is where I do not agree with how this is all coded. Why do I need to know how to use something in order to -Ride- with it in hand?

Now if you say I cannot fight while dual wielding because I do not know how to dual wield swords well enough to consider doing it mounted then I would agree. But If I am simply carrying a pair of swords, Well, they could be rocks or Ginka or just about anything, they are simply objects, you are not using them.

What if you could ride (master ride) while dual wielding/two handed (regardless of the skill) but once you get in combat you're screwed and are thrown from the mount if your dual wield/two handed isn't high enough to engage in mounted combat? We ought to separate the distinction of riding vs mounted combat. They are two separate things right?

X-D

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2019, 01:05:44 AM »
Yes.

But I wonder on the likelihood.

As it stands it is based on what, 3 skills. Ride, Dual, Etwo. The proposition would mean adding several other skills. Though it would likely give more reasons to use the one handed ranged skills.
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ShaiHulud

  • Posts: 258
Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2019, 01:35:57 AM »
Not often I speak up, mostly listen. But here I go.
I was surprised and taken back by the inability of my char's ability to 'move' with, shield, two weapons, two handed, even after gaining levels in ride that allowed before.
This thread alerted me to the fact it was now tied to the skills of weapon stance and style. I would have been riding hard forever hoping to hold my wood and balls.
I'm okay with the realism of the change..but this..

I can fight with two weapons or mekfisted on a mount, but I can't move with those in hand. How is that realistic? Perhaps should be the other way around?

Anyways, just passing. Love you all!
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Brokkr

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2019, 12:25:31 PM »
However I think the master ride classes have been done a disservice to remove the functionality of being a master rider. They should logically be able to do anything once they reach that level of riding acumen.

I was used to playing legacy rangers with master ride and holding whatever I wanted in my hands.  So when I recently played a scout, I was a bit dismayed to find I could not ride holding a two-handed weapon because I was not skilled in that style yet.   So I know where you are coming from.  I put it down to not having master ride though.

However, I am wondering what classes do get master ride these days?  AFAIK only Stalker gets it now.

You most likely were not a master rider.

They point to ride with both hands full was advanced.  Not master.  Few rangers ever hit the master level.

The perception that you “had” to have a class or subclass that gave two hand riding was too widespread, and perhaps not incorrect.  The problem was that you could only effectively get that at charges, which led to a huge subclass bias, and a lot of subpr decisions.  And folks got it much too quickly.

This was the solution.  Slow down getting there considerably.  Make it so nearly every class can get it, eventually.  Make it not all or nothing.

As for non-weapons....yeah, except the code treats them as dual wielded.

lostinspace

  • Posts: 754
Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2019, 01:10:17 PM »
I really wish that your archery skill was used to determine if you can ride with a bow and arrow instead of dual weild.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 01:12:43 PM by lostinspace »
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kahuna

  • Posts: 229
Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2019, 02:32:22 PM »
Quote
The perception that you “had” to have a class or subclass that gave two hand riding was too widespread, and perhaps not incorrect.  The problem was that you could only effectively get that at charges, which led to a huge subclass bias, and a lot of subpr decisions.  And folks got it much too quickly.

This was the solution.  Slow down getting there considerably.  Make it so nearly every class can get it, eventually.  Make it not all or nothing.

Okay.. now we're talking. I get this, from a game balance perspective, I totally agree with you that rangers with ride/charge and being able to dual wield/two handed mounted combat was actually a bit over powered. The new system does indeed solve this issue.

Armaddict

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2019, 03:05:54 PM »
Quote
So lets put you on a horse and put a rope in your hands and let you have a go at roping a yearling. Your ability to just get around is going to be dependent on how well you ride and how well you know how to use a rope.  If either of these things are missing, you are going to have one hell of a time.

You will not have a hell of a time holding the rope.  You will have a hell of a time roping anything.
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Brokkr

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2019, 03:23:53 PM »
Quote
So lets put you on a horse and put a rope in your hands and let you have a go at roping a yearling. Your ability to just get around is going to be dependent on how well you ride and how well you know how to use a rope.  If either of these things are missing, you are going to have one hell of a time.

You will not have a hell of a time holding the rope.  You will have a hell of a time roping anything.

Well yes.  But before that you need to get the horse where you want to get it.

I'm assuming you rope?

X-D

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2019, 07:18:10 PM »
Quote
Well yes.  But before that you need to get the horse where you want to get it.

I'm assuming you rope?

That is his point and mine. I can hold the rope, and not change my ability to ride, I can hold the rope in both hands and not change my ability to ride, or as you say, "get the horse to where I want to get it." I can hold a rope in each hand and not have issues. It is when I try to -USE- said rope that there will be issues.

Quote
As for non-weapons....yeah, except the code treats them as dual wielded.


Which shows another flaw in having dual/etwo dictate if you can do it or not.
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kahuna

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2019, 08:13:49 PM »
Ideally.. I feel like ride should dictate whether you can move from room to room with no hands. The combat skill itself should dictate whether you can engage in mounted combat. So if you're just riding along and have master ride you can dual wield, two hand, teacup and kettle if you like, whatever. But if you engage in combat with dual wield and are mounted and have novice dual wield the mount will throw you and you'll be in a bad position because that makes more sense, agreed?

Riev

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2019, 10:54:06 PM »
Ideally.. I feel like ride should dictate whether you can move from room to room with no hands. The combat skill itself should dictate whether you can engage in mounted combat. So if you're just riding along and have master ride you can dual wield, two hand, teacup and kettle if you like, whatever. But if you engage in combat with dual wield and are mounted and have novice dual wield the mount will throw you and you'll be in a bad position because that makes more sense, agreed?

This would be my preferred implementation. Let me ride with both weapons out, but if I try to attack, I don't have the dual wield skill high enough to know how to balance. If I have Journeyman Dual Wield, I barely know how to attack on solid ground with both weapons.

Let the mount buck me off if I'm attacked. Let that be my risk, the lag and the damage from the fall, and being sent to a seated position. The benefit would be that if I EXPECT an attack, I can dismount and prepare.
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Brokkr

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Re: Can we talk about ride?
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2019, 06:39:17 PM »
Quote
Well yes.  But before that you need to get the horse where you want to get it.

I'm assuming you rope?

That is his point and mine. I can hold the rope, and not change my ability to ride, I can hold the rope in both hands and not change my ability to ride, or as you say, "get the horse to where I want to get it." I can hold a rope in each hand and not have issues. It is when I try to -USE- said rope that there will be issues.

The reason I asked if they roped was because people are throwing out how they envision it working and I have no idea a) if they have ever even ridden b) if they have ever ridden with stuff in their hands like a rope.

Because just having a rope in your hands impacts your ability to get around.  To make the horse go where you want to go.  It doesn't suddenly only come into play only when you try to use the rope. Mostly what you need to get used to is the coils of the rope in your off hand and avoiding the saddlehorn with them.  Some horses are easier than others because you can just hold your off hand higher, but that tends to be a bad idea on horses that have a tendency to buck.  If you have to hold it lower because of that, you need to make sure the coils of the rope are on a certain side of the saddlehorn to avoid issues.  Although some reins are easier to rope with that others, a lot of the roping I did was with a hackamore which was kind of a bitch.

Ideally.. I feel like ride should dictate whether you can move from room to room with no hands. The combat skill itself should dictate whether you can engage in mounted combat. So if you're just riding along and have master ride you can dual wield, two hand, teacup and kettle if you like, whatever. But if you engage in combat with dual wield and are mounted and have novice dual wield the mount will throw you and you'll be in a bad position because that makes more sense, agreed?

This would be my preferred implementation. Let me ride with both weapons out, but if I try to attack, I don't have the dual wield skill high enough to know how to balance. If I have Journeyman Dual Wield, I barely know how to attack on solid ground with both weapons.

Let the mount buck me off if I'm attacked. Let that be my risk, the lag and the damage from the fall, and being sent to a seated position. The benefit would be that if I EXPECT an attack, I can dismount and prepare.

And then we would be right back to where we were, essentially.  That isn't a solution, that is regression. It doesn't solve any of the issues the old system had.