Author Topic: Elven ethics  (Read 844 times)

Nile

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Elven ethics
« on: November 04, 2019, 07:07:43 PM »
Just curious if elves are supposed to have a sort of biologically determined system of ethics? I've always thought of them as utilitarians in tribal situations, but are there examples of deontological ethics (there are absolute moral principles) etc?
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Brokkr

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2019, 07:11:05 PM »
Riding?  Theft?

Nile

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2019, 07:55:37 PM »
Riding?  Theft?

Obviously. I was thinking more along the lines of questioning these values instead of taking them as simplistic absolutes. For instance, the arguments about if/when an elf should be on a wagon or whatever, or when being caught thieving has harsh internal consequences.

But, what I take from this is that the staff don't really care. Up to each player.

so thread closed :)
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Hauwke

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2019, 08:15:50 PM »
The riding thing is really a point of pride rather than an impossibility. Are they so wounded that they cannot at all ever even consider making the trek back to camp while a mekillot sits just over yonder about to charge?

In my mind any sane elf would just suck it up and ride on the wagon, they absolutely will not enjoy it, and they will remember that moment as them being incredibly weak for the rest of their life. But hey, at least they didn't die.

Jihelu

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2019, 10:55:09 PM »
"In my mind any sane elf would just suck it up and ride on the wagon, they absolutely will not enjoy it, and they will remember that moment as them being incredibly weak for the rest of their life. But hey, at least they didn't die."

I'm pretty sure staff don't share this opinion and will store you if you do it, not that I agree with it.

Armaddict

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2019, 11:17:58 PM »
If they store you for roleplaying the shame of it, then they're delusional.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Hauwke

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2019, 01:13:40 AM »
Honestly role-playing the shame of it would be fun as hell.

SmashedTregil

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2019, 01:55:26 AM »
A delf would never consider suicide, unless he's sacrificing himself for the sake of the tribe.

A delven ability to run is part of their identity. For them to put that ability under question is to betray themselves. When the choice between betraying themselves, or ensuring personal death comes to them, the thing that breaks that tie are tribal needs. If the tribe will suffer because they did not ride the wagon, then they will ride the wagon. But once it's done and the need for the tribe is gone, please understand, that they have lost themselves. They're no longer elves. They've died, for they lost what makes them elves. They still cant suicide, because it is absolute anathema for them, but they'd seek out every possible way to sacrifice themselves for the tribe, because they're already dead. And it's not a matter of them being shunned, or exiled, or accused. There will be no need. They will be able to do this to themselves all on their own.

So if there is a mekillot on the ridge and you have 1% chance to survive running past it, or 100% to survive by riding a wagon. They will pick 1% chance, because riding a wagon means "certain" death. Unless the selfishness of choosing not to die, will make the tribe suffer. In which case delf will do everything he can to assure tribe's well being, and only then worry about his eventual invalidation as a being.

At least this is how I understand it.


Overall. There is a myriad of ways to practice mental acrobatics to talk your delven self into being able to ride wagons. The fact is that it's against theme. It doesn't have to make sense, it's just part of the racial quirk and a player needs to play it out, instead of creating an 'exception' every time. It's not difficult to give a good logical reasoning why delf should be able to do it. It is simply requested by the theme of the game that a player does not do that, because that is the theme of the race.
Peering into the darkness, your voice uncertain, you say, in sirihish:
     "You be wary, you lot. It ain' I who's locked 'p here with yeh. it's the whol
e bunch of youse that's locked down here with meh."

RogueGunslinger

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2019, 02:30:29 AM »
Just dont join any clans as a city elf and never leave your city. Never visit the wagonyards or take jobs that might involve stealing from them. Avoid the situation entirely because approaching it from a roleplay standpoint is tiresome and irritating and could leave you in trouble with the staff or have people vaguebooking on the GDB about you.

Want to play an outcast who can join clans and go places? Play a half-elf.

Jihelu

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2019, 04:42:23 PM »
In Dark Sun they handled the situation well: Elves /could and would ride/ if they were dying or too injured to. They are prideful beings who are extremely proud of their running, but they wouldn't be caught doing it. But they also aren't suicidal or stupid.

I think they would be exiled from their tribe if they were caught and they might exile themselves even if they weren't, but here's the kicker: They'd do it after escaping the fucking threat on their ass and have a chance to rest up.

This also may vary by edition.

As it stands you can't even physically hop on a mount for staff to store you, I tried it on an elf once just to see if you could actually get on a mount and I got the message 'you can't ride this'. I think it was a beetle or something, maybe I was just too tall but I doubt it.

rinthrat

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2019, 06:27:07 PM »
As it stands you can't even physically hop on a mount for staff to store you, I tried it on an elf once just to see if you could actually get on a mount and I got the message 'you can't ride this'. I think it was a beetle or something, maybe I was just too tall but I doubt it.
My last celf hopped onto mounts just to title them, because there seems to be no other way to add a unique keyword to a mount. It's possible, at least for celves.

Jihelu

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2019, 06:32:10 PM »
Huh, I was a celf.

Why the hell could I not get on the mount. (If I play an elf in the next few whenever I'll test it again)

SmashedTregil

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2019, 06:52:58 PM »
Some guilds give riding skill, so elves of these guilds can do it. Some don't and elves can't do it.

So a warrior celf could do it, even if he shouldn't have. An assassin elf cannot
A human assassin doesn't have ride, but he learns it instantly on first try, so it doesn't apply. Something like that.
Peering into the darkness, your voice uncertain, you say, in sirihish:
     "You be wary, you lot. It ain' I who's locked 'p here with yeh. it's the whol
e bunch of youse that's locked down here with meh."

LauraMars

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2019, 11:48:53 PM »
The reason staff are so hard on people playing the exception in this case is, I think, the following:

1) The game code for riding in wagons or riding a mount is superior in every way to getting around on your own two feet.
2) The better the code gains, the thinner the roleplay justification people seem to need in order to take advantage of it.

See also: Every dwarven focus that revolves around "git gud at fite"

I understand where the ridiculously black and white take on "elves never ride" comes from.

It gets taken too far and the contortions people come up with to justify it are extremely silly and unrealistic by any storytelling metric, but who on staff wants to consistently police that particular thing? Nobody.
Child, child, if you come to this doomed house, what is to save you?

A voice whispers, "Read the tales upon the walls."

Brokkr

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2019, 12:34:41 AM »
It is only ridiculous if you think of elves as tall, skinny humans with peculiar quirks that you can work out with human logic.

As opposed to a different race, with a different psychology.  As a trout, not really understanding why a turtle would choose to go onto land.

Armaddict

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2019, 04:30:56 AM »
Just curious if elves are supposed to have a sort of biologically determined system of ethics? I've always thought of them as utilitarians in tribal situations, but are there examples of deontological ethics (there are absolute moral principles) etc?

Since we kinda derailed on the riding thing, you could read my 'Why I play City Elves' thread if you haven't already.  It talks about some of the examples and a different way to view them that I view as a more 'elven' way of it.  Theft and such are always common themes, but might give you framework for a different psychology to adapt to your own play.  It might touch more on find a unique set of non-human ethics.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Alesan

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2019, 10:06:03 AM »
It is only ridiculous if you think of elves as tall, skinny humans with peculiar quirks that you can work out with human logic.

As opposed to a different race, with a different psychology.  As a trout, not really understanding why a turtle would choose to go onto land.

You almost sound like elves are so alien as to be unfathomable for us real life humans. This is why mantis are no longer playable, yes?

Dar

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2019, 10:11:19 AM »
It is only ridiculous if you think of elves as tall, skinny humans with peculiar quirks that you can work out with human logic.

As opposed to a different race, with a different psychology.  As a trout, not really understanding why a turtle would choose to go onto land.

You almost sound like elves are so alien as to be unfathomable for us real life humans. This is why mantis are no longer playable, yes?


What a strange post.


Dwarven logic is unfathomable to us, because they're not humans. This is why to dwarves abandoning their focus is unthinkable. Not discouraged by peer pressure, or disliked as an admittion of defeat, but  'unthinkable'. It wont occur to them.

It sounds ridiculous only if we think that dwarves are short, strong, bald humans with peculiar quirks that we can work out with human logic.


Yes. Elves and Dwarves are both mantis like.

Alesan

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2019, 10:49:32 AM »
It is only ridiculous if you think of elves as tall, skinny humans with peculiar quirks that you can work out with human logic.

As opposed to a different race, with a different psychology.  As a trout, not really understanding why a turtle would choose to go onto land.

You almost sound like elves are so alien as to be unfathomable for us real life humans. This is why mantis are no longer playable, yes?


What a strange post.


Dwarven logic is unfathomable to us, because they're not humans. This is why to dwarves abandoning their focus is unthinkable. Not discouraged by peer pressure, or disliked as an admittion of defeat, but  'unthinkable'. It wont occur to them.

It sounds ridiculous only if we think that dwarves are short, strong, bald humans with peculiar quirks that we can work out with human logic.


Yes. Elves and Dwarves are both mantis like.

I appreciate your attempt at making me sound stupid, but I was only pointing out how strange the original statement was, that the things elves (and dwarves, thank you for the example) do are incomprehensible to us humans, yet we play them just the same. They are obviously playable, so maybe we can in fact comprehend just enough to play these characters.

Brokkr

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2019, 11:44:27 AM »
And yet when we put in place "This is the way the race works" in the documents...lots of folks just ignore that, or try to reason ways around restrictions, like it is an optional piece of RP rather than a core aspect of the way they are.

Potaje

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2019, 12:00:01 PM »
perhaps it is not beyond our ability to understand that which is beyond our own reason but not beyond our own reasoning. The story of the ant and the grasshopper.

Perhaps yest the ant prepares ifs self for the future with hard work and when tough times come and it survives due to toiling all its life in preparation makes the ant not comprehend the whimsy of the grasshopper the summer child that plays and enjoys and does not toil to prepare and is not set to face those tough times.

But for the grasshopper perhaps it was a life well lived, enjoyed in splendor and the inevitable end is best meet with the joy experiences.

I think that it is as simple as that from the perspective out of the game. If one is to boil things down. Of those two when viewing each other their understanding of existence and how to approach it seems alien/ foreign to the other. And that is how we are asked to approach the races of the game to give them the expression they embody.
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I often hear the jingle to -Riunite on ice- when I read the estate name Reynolte, eve though there ain't no ice in Zalanthas.

RogueGunslinger

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2019, 12:46:02 PM »
The problem is taking a trait that is foreign to us, like never being willing to ride and then expanding that out to the most absurd circumstances, like wagons or silt skimmers. Im sure we all agree that it would be stupid if an elf refused to roll or slide down a hill because not using their own legs for locomotion is faux pas. Should elf whirans never fly? Do elf babies refuse to crawl? Do elf mothers refuse to carry their children? Do all elves have irreparable ptsd from the 9 months they were forced to be to be carried around in a womb?

Sure these examples are absurd. But its also absurd to think an elf trapped on a silt island would never be willing to swallow their pride and ride a skimmer home.

edit: Also simply stating "thats how they are  written and how we expect you to play" is a nonstarter. This discussion is about if they should be written that way. Not wether or not players should follow the rules.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 12:58:49 PM by RogueGunslinger »

Armaddict

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2019, 12:59:37 PM »
Quote
Sure these examples are absurd. But its also absurd to think an elf trapped on a silt island would never be willing to swallow their pride and ride a skimmer home.

Clarifying, and perhaps this is where I deviate from what staffers say, I think the above scenario is fine.  I'm a little iffy on the silt-skimmer scenario altogether, because for me, it was always about reliance on another creature to move you long distances...not traversing impassable terrain on something that doesn't even use other creatures to do so.

However, what I don't think is fine is taking the action lightly.  No one else has to give your elf shit about it.  They will be thoroughly shamed by it for the rest of their lives, it will mark their self-measurement, and when in the presence of powerful sharps, they may not even feel up to meeting their gaze.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Dar

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2019, 03:57:07 PM »
It is only ridiculous if you think of elves as tall, skinny humans with peculiar quirks that you can work out with human logic.

As opposed to a different race, with a different psychology.  As a trout, not really understanding why a turtle would choose to go onto land.

You almost sound like elves are so alien as to be unfathomable for us real life humans. This is why mantis are no longer playable, yes?


What a strange post.


Dwarven logic is unfathomable to us, because they're not humans. This is why to dwarves abandoning their focus is unthinkable. Not discouraged by peer pressure, or disliked as an admittion of defeat, but  'unthinkable'. It wont occur to them.

It sounds ridiculous only if we think that dwarves are short, strong, bald humans with peculiar quirks that we can work out with human logic.


Yes. Elves and Dwarves are both mantis like.

I appreciate your attempt at making me sound stupid, but I was only pointing out how strange the original statement was, that the things elves (and dwarves, thank you for the example) do are incomprehensible to us humans, yet we play them just the same. They are obviously playable, so maybe we can in fact comprehend just enough to play these characters.

Shit. I'm sorry.

Nile

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2019, 06:35:09 PM »
I'm also interested in tribal responses to threats. Would elves typically sacrifice their own to save the tribe itself (as I've usually seen done)? Or is this quite a fluid cultural element?
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ShaLeah

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2019, 11:36:24 PM »
I'm also interested in tribal responses to threats. Would elves typically sacrifice their own to save the tribe itself (as I've usually seen done)? Or is this quite a fluid cultural element?

Again. Depends.
The black and white of a tribal is 'family forever' but the individuals WITHIN that family are sometimes fucked up and need to die. So...

What happens when you have one kin yapping like they talk for the tribe, making decisions that are against the nature of an isolated, wilderness family like... oh I don't know... kanking city folk. They're heading into the city, renting apartments, got themselves a nice piece of elven ass from the rinth, they're telling templars sure, they'll help in their war, they'll shoot that raider... If I were playing a delf I'd follow the chain of command, talk around the fire, what does everyone think, let's talk to them. They don't listen? Go to the elders. They're in charge for a reason. Can't get the elders on your side? NOW you gotta make a decision.

The tribe is above any individual. In order for that tribe mentality to be kept alive, you have to live and breathe it. You are not an individual first, you are a member of the Soh Lana Kah first, her blood runs through your veins. You will keep her alive. It is your duty. If ANYONE or ANYTHING threatens that? It's fair game.

I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
Quote
In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

Barsook

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2019, 08:28:30 AM »
The problem is taking a trait that is foreign to us, like never being willing to ride and then expanding that out to the most absurd circumstances, like wagons or silt skimmers. Im sure we all agree that it would be stupid if an elf refused to roll or slide down a hill because not using their own legs for locomotion is faux pas. Should elf whirans never fly? Do elf babies refuse to crawl? Do elf mothers refuse to carry their children? Do all elves have irreparable ptsd from the 9 months they were forced to be to be carried around in a womb?

Sure these examples are absurd. But its also absurd to think an elf trapped on a silt island would never be willing to swallow their pride and ride a skimmer home.

edit: Also simply stating "thats how they are  written and how we expect you to play" is a nonstarter. This discussion is about if they should be written that way. Not wether or not players should follow the rules.

This maybe a absurd example or something else but what do elves think when they climb up something?

SmashedTregil

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2019, 09:55:43 AM »
Perhaps it's a matter of trust as well.

When you're using your own limbs to move around, you trust yourself. But trusting an animal? trusting a construction built by humans?
Peering into the darkness, your voice uncertain, you say, in sirihish:
     "You be wary, you lot. It ain' I who's locked 'p here with yeh. it's the whol
e bunch of youse that's locked down here with meh."

Barsook

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    • The Sense of Openness
Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2019, 10:02:41 AM »
I think you hit the hammer on the nail there.

Armaddict

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2019, 04:43:50 AM »
Perhaps it's a matter of trust as well.

When you're using your own limbs to move around, you trust yourself. But trusting an animal? trusting a construction built by humans?

I would say that's maybe some component but not as large of one as the pride, otherwise there'd be justification after a few goes to start learning to trust the things.  The same way they do with friends.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

ShaLeah

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2019, 09:20:32 AM »
Perhaps it's a matter of trust as well.

When you're using your own limbs to move around, you trust yourself. But trusting an animal? trusting a construction built by humans?

I would say that's maybe some component but not as large of one as the pride, otherwise there'd be justification after a few goes to start learning to trust the things.  The same way they do with friends.

Long ago there was this elf bynner who had a "trusted" human friend. Said elf almost got dead in whatever shenanigans they were into and the human friend, being a good friend, took said passed out elf and either subdued and dragged him or tossed him onto the argosy, I can't remember which. That was the end of that friendship and the eventual murder of that "friend". That taught me a lot.
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
Quote
In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

kahuna

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2019, 09:56:31 AM »
In Dark Sun they handled the situation well: Elves /could and would ride/ if they were dying or too injured to. They are prideful beings who are extremely proud of their running, but they wouldn't be caught doing it. But they also aren't suicidal or stupid.

I don't know about this. Here is a link to the original Elves of Athas documentation, it's 100 pages so plenty of information on the topic. Of course this isn't applicable since Armageddon uses its own documentation, I'm just linking the original source material to clear up any confusion on the whole riding thing. There are a few other things but this was always the go to docs for elves in Darksun.

https://filebin.ca/51fvWy6pc4CP/elvesofathas.docx

Jihelu

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Re: Elven ethics
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2019, 12:22:27 PM »
You might be right the only source I can find is some shitty 5e conversion