Author Topic: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?  (Read 17155 times)

Thomoto

  • Posts: 174
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #150 on: February 06, 2020, 09:46:53 PM »
It is indeed pretty realistic. I don't know what the hell could be changed. Other than, like... Maybe 'bash' having a chance to break down doors but making a hell of a lot of noise / alerting like... every fucking apartment nearby or something?

Yeah I wish.

if that ever becomes a thing... If you hear someone screaming "FBI", its me.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 09:49:29 PM by Thomoto »
resting as a city elf walking in the wilderness because "I was so close" and then got jumped by things that could easily kill me and I didn't have the stamina to escape.

Is Friday

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #151 on: February 18, 2020, 09:00:45 AM »
Why not give more penalty to flee? Too easy to get away, imo.

If we're talking mass combat, that's where a majority of kills happened historically. (After the route.) As it stands if you flee then you're generallly safe if you have enough stamina to spam run away. (You do in 90% of cases.)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 09:06:05 AM by Is Friday »
And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #152 on: February 18, 2020, 10:03:01 AM »
A flee penalty would make PVE exploration even more impossible than it already is.
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Is Friday

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #153 on: February 18, 2020, 10:09:15 AM »
A flee penalty would make PVE exploration even more impossible than it already is.
You can make adjustments based on skills.

For instance if someone retreats from a bahamet he gets his free attack like it is now.

If someone retreats from a PC with slashing weapons or threaten or literally any skill which is 99% PC only, you get a penalty.

I'm personally okay with having the difference since NPCs get tons of advantages as is. Including the insta move then double attack which staff have repeatedly insisted is a feature.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 10:14:09 AM by Is Friday »
And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

rohenne

  • Posts: 116
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #154 on: February 18, 2020, 10:54:19 PM »
I have only played for like 3 years but I have only been 1 hitted by a sneaky dwarf once and i was at like 20hp from making the mistake of forgetting my token of mercantilism on my rinth clothes so it could have been an urchin that did it and as a fellow rinthi at the time I got it.   like ic how could he not a wounded elven fence in the

and my first real long lived character was a human rinthi fighter who walked around the rinth with 20k of weapons and armor calling her self the guard of west side wishing a mf'er would until she got she got so old the new recruits she was training after retiring from face started to give a square fight.


she never once went out of her way to mess up anyone's plots though unless a templar or noble requested it and never once attacked anyone without having a full conversation first.

So i think there is something to be said about the way a character behaves having a heavy bearing on the likeliness they have to be one hit KO'ed in kind of a live by the sword die by the sword kind of way and I think there is alot of room within conflicting plots for compromise between opposing sides even in a brutal world and when that happens in good faith even in criminal/raiding scenarios people will run with it becaue it is really fun.  I mean the templarate taking bribes and making people do things is just this and is objectively way more fun for everyone than people getting killed by npc half-giants all the time, i feel like that same dynamic exists with most conflict in the game.

if its a dick measuring contest just stick a knife in their pillow a few days before you sit down to the bartering table or something to make them more amenable to your ends.

i really like the new poison degeneration but one-hits are not something I have a problem with in the game recently through virtue of mostly just good faith RP


Ive had more enemies who I would never want to kill because it was fun to play with them than enemies I have wanted to kill.


I'm not trying to blame players for this problem people are seeing i am on the contrary saying that in my experience if you rp in good faith people return the favor.

and my characters who go around letting their plots build with other people's plots rather than making it a zero sum game normally get treated in kind

i think if the cultural meta problem is too much one hit killing over nothing then perhaps the answer is sustaining a culture of good faith rp so that rp actually gets a chance to flourish.  I have seen it done and it is when i have the most fun in the game.


I honestly think that since the classes got changed up i have seen rp in places get better not worse because people have well rounded enough characters codedly that there is more to their lives than how my pk's notched into their weapon hilt.




and if someone is a side character riding the tailcoats of someone with real ig power (ex. aides) getting sniffed because their boss offended someone over a doobie or what have you i feel like that kind of comes with the territory of being a side character involved over your head.  Its a fun balance to play when it works but when the one hit poison l33t execution comes that wasn't a plot being sniffed it was just that character being a dispensable side character in a plot grander than themselves. and thats a believable consequence for jumping into games way over their head.



 

« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 12:28:37 AM by rohenne »

Harmless

  • Posts: 2877
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #155 on: February 19, 2020, 07:48:09 AM »
Why not give more penalty to flee? Too easy to get away, imo.

If we're talking mass combat, that's where a majority of kills happened historically. (After the route.) As it stands if you flee then you're generallly safe if you have enough stamina to spam run away. (You do in 90% of cases.)

Flee is risky as attacks of opportunity can mean your life. Esp if ganged up on. Two people getting an attack if opportunity is deadly. Then if the attackers didnt have a delay on they can immediately go to the next room over and if you didn't land the right DIRECTION of the flee the first go then you may just have trapped yourself.

I think the only change I want is to remove the need to spam the command. If you type flee, your character should keep trying every so often until they succeed or a certain amount of failures or time has passed.

So instead of PANIC! you couldnt escape! IT says. "You couldnt escape yet, but you still try..." then it later says "you never found a way out of combat."

To balance such a nerf to flee, I really want a wimpy feature added to it.

But I never thought that flee was the problem. All the other lame strategies are a bigger contributor. Especially the fear of retaliation bit and the lack of anonymity bit.
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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #156 on: February 19, 2020, 08:22:52 AM »
Yeah flee is fine
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Khorm

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #157 on: February 19, 2020, 09:23:57 AM »
i think my issue with flee is that it seems to remove the teeth from normal 1v1 sort of player conflict. i attack, incur delay, you flee, conflict concluded. so i switch to something that has actual consequence, like poison.

i'm not advocating for making it easier to pk someone via normal combat scenario. i'm advocating for making it a more viable means of conflict so that it might take the place of things like apt murder.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 09:28:20 AM by Khorm »
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Harmless

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #158 on: February 27, 2020, 11:43:42 PM »
So, did reel change?

Reel used to be the counter to flee. I think reeling was the reason I couldn't flee in 99% of cases where brute force was used to PK my past characters.

But lately reel seems odd. I swear I see people fighting on right away after a reel or fleeing after a reel.

Was reel nerfed?
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Narf

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #159 on: February 28, 2020, 12:13:11 AM »
So, did reel change?

Reel used to be the counter to flee. I think reeling was the reason I couldn't flee in 99% of cases where brute force was used to PK my past characters.

But lately reel seems odd. I swear I see people fighting on right away after a reel or fleeing after a reel.

Was reel nerfed?

It's been like that for years. I think it was changed at some point, but for the last 3 years at least I would regularly counterattack while reeled before the aggressor got another action.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #160 on: February 28, 2020, 02:45:03 AM »
Pretty sure that's due to the fact that flee wasn't a skill everyone had access to. At least not in the form of being able to train it up!

Hauwke

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #161 on: February 28, 2020, 04:25:57 AM »
No, reel has been bugged for ages now.

If an attacker reels you, you can disengage and they will stop attacking. It's stupid.

Strongheart

  • Posts: 329
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #162 on: February 28, 2020, 06:24:52 AM »
I refuse to believe that >:( Arm is perfectly balanced and not buggy at all especially when it comes to combat.

Is Friday

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #163 on: February 28, 2020, 08:10:37 AM »
Nessalin said he was looking into how flee works in Discord last week. I'm hoping for some changes. Spamming flee without penalty then spam running is very easy. It forces Insta nuke tactics instead of low or mid tier combat.
And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

Narf

  • Posts: 915
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #164 on: February 28, 2020, 11:23:00 AM »
Nessalin said he was looking into how flee works in Discord last week. I'm hoping for some changes. Spamming flee without penalty then spam running is very easy. It forces Insta nuke tactics instead of low or mid tier combat.

Yeah, the idea that how well you flee is based solely on how quickly you can hit a button seems antithetical to the rest of the game design.

Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #165 on: February 28, 2020, 12:52:51 PM »
PVE kills players far more often than PVP on average. I think Admin posted stats on my this somewhere but I can't recall where it is at the moment. My worry about making flee less reliable is that it may seriously impact the PVE aspect.

There are oodles of mobs that can 1-2 shot pcs and if flee is very delayed or difficult then those oh shit moments might result in an unfavorable rate of PVE fatalities instead of close calls.

If flee from PVE and PVP were treated separately this would be ideal imho.
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Alesan

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #166 on: February 28, 2020, 01:38:18 PM »
What's wrong with having more PCs die to instagank mobs? /s

Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #167 on: February 28, 2020, 01:45:28 PM »
What's wrong with having more PCs die to instagank mobs? /s

Creating/Advancing Plots is more annoying than fun when your participation turnover rate is too fast/high.
You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #168 on: February 28, 2020, 06:46:36 PM »
yeah if flee gets nerfed im just gonna not play anymore cus theres no point in exploration if you can't explore unless you can reliably take everything in an area
i dont want to put 2000 hours into spamming combat shit just to see how the next room description along looks
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The Desert Bloom is a Greggs, tbh.

Narf

  • Posts: 915
Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #169 on: February 28, 2020, 07:03:34 PM »
yeah if flee gets nerfed im just gonna not play anymore cus theres no point in exploration if you can't explore unless you can reliably take everything in an area
i dont want to put 2000 hours into spamming combat shit just to see how the next room description along looks

So in order to continue playing you must be able to have an effectively infinite number of flee attempts available to you? In your mind what is the purpose of a failed flee message?

I get not wanting it nerfed, but as it is now there is no purpose to a failed escape attempt and it's kind of silly. You could probably just increase the odds of a successful escape, but add a small time delay to each flee attempt. Technically this would still be a nerf, but it would be a much smaller one and the game would make a lot more sense.

Hauwke

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #170 on: February 28, 2020, 07:48:47 PM »
I just want Reel code fixed. If I hit a guy and he disengaged from me it shouldn't stop combat.

mansa

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #171 on: February 28, 2020, 07:50:07 PM »
A lot of multiplayer games that have a Player-Vs-Player and Player-Vs-NPCs aspect to their code, treating player enemies different than robot enemies.  That could be something to look into, if there is time and energy.
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Harmless

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #172 on: February 28, 2020, 09:55:51 PM »
i am fine with differences in pve and pvp mechanics

if flee is nerfed I really want wimpy. I really hate that I can only have my character flee from combat if I am staring at the screen constantly waiting to enter a command. That's stupid also.  I just have to say that, there has always been some kind of bias against a wimpy feature, but if we're going to nerf flee then we're making the game more "hardcore" and I would like something "casual" to compensate. I don't want to just die every time because if I am late to start fleeing from combat because I dont type fast that it's even more likely I'll die. I want my character to automatically do what my character would want to do, try to run automatically, if I am not there to type it manually. Then let the nerfed version of flee kick in.


Also, the two counters to flee really are reeling, and guarding/having the flee skill yourself and blocking their exit. I am okay with something like a delay added to a fail flee attempt if your opponent succeeded in their own guarding or fleeing check against you, and a special message sent. Maybe most mobs don't have a high flee skill and would be less likely to block your exit, not having that kind of training/body type. (the mobs will still chase you after all.)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 10:11:08 PM by Harmless »
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Hauwke

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #173 on: February 28, 2020, 11:43:34 PM »
i am fine with differences in pve and pvp mechanics

if flee is nerfed I really want wimpy. I really hate that I can only have my character flee from combat if I am staring at the screen constantly waiting to enter a command. That's stupid also.  I just have to say that, there has always been some kind of bias against a wimpy feature, but if we're going to nerf flee then we're making the game more "hardcore" and I would like something "casual" to compensate. I don't want to just die every time because if I am late to start fleeing from combat because I dont type fast that it's even more likely I'll die. I want my character to automatically do what my character would want to do, try to run automatically, if I am not there to type it manually. Then let the nerfed version of flee kick in.


Also, the two counters to flee really are reeling, and guarding/having the flee skill yourself and blocking their exit. I am okay with something like a delay added to a fail flee attempt if your opponent succeeded in their own guarding or fleeing check against you, and a special message sent. Maybe most mobs don't have a high flee skill and would be less likely to block your exit, not having that kind of training/body type. (the mobs will still chase you after all.)

Except reel IS NOT working like that currently. Literally the only counter to flee is killing the person before they manage to get away, or preemptively guarding the correct exit.

Armaddict

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Re: all PVP is surprise attacks. Not lame, but what do we do?
« Reply #174 on: February 29, 2020, 12:36:10 AM »
Erm, I may be mistaken (it's been awhile) but doesn't attacking remove your guarding status anyway?
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