Author Topic: Stealth vs Scan/theft  (Read 898 times)

Derain

  • Posts: 857
Stealth vs Scan/theft
« on: November 02, 2019, 08:44:29 AM »
Just wanted to touch on the fact that an elf player with high agility is still able to be a ghost in a room full of people, given that not everyone would be paying attention.. But recently I see taverns are pretty well empty due to players just coming along and stealing everything off peoples belts literally. The law enforcement PCs are completely unable to do anything because said sneaky PCs are impossible to spot even with watch, scan at master.

This in my opinion takes any risk out of the sneaky PCs hands.

My thought is perhaps give NPC soldiers and guards higher stealth when guarding Reds/Gaj etc or bump the spotting skills. Maybe lower the stealth skills, cause sneak and hide isn't invisibility and if your taking 4-5 items from one PC first you should be noticed at that point and second it's pretty poor RP.

Sidenote- Make compound gates with a guard that is checking people no hide rooms for the right inside the gate room.

kahuna

  • Posts: 202
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2019, 09:35:39 AM »
It is possible to see them with master scan you just have to be very persistent with your looks and watch shadow commands.

While I think some rooms should be no hide for obvious reasons, compounds are already difficult enough to get into. I've stated this previously but compounds, estates should just have scale able walls for realistic break ins. Shadowing people thru the gate I will admit is odd but not outside the realm of possibility if it's at night and the gate guard is an idiot. Just because the script is immediate doesn't mean that they are opening/closing a heavy ass gate within mere seconds (that is how long IRL time it takes), I foresee someone shadowing taking their time to sneak past the gate guard while the gate is open somehow.

Derain

  • Posts: 857
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2019, 10:09:24 AM »
Sorry but the VNPCs would notice the random guy following through the gate, and would likely notice the rinther cloaked person or MUL following someone in. Completely unrealistic and the house wouldn't have a gate guard protecting their entire family who is an idiot.

Also you should have to L L L L L L LL L LL L L LL L L L L L L L L while in the bar and if you'd like to test a exceptional agility elf against any other races scan you should next to impossible, especially since they will just flee the second someone gets a look re-hide and come back to rob multiple items from the same targets.

Qzzrbl

  • Posts: 4959
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2019, 10:12:26 AM »
just up your "watch shadow" script and pray they're not beyond that "you actually have no hope of finding them before they get bored and leave even with master scan" threshold brah

Derain

  • Posts: 857
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2019, 10:17:54 AM »
If your getting 4-5 items stolen at a bar someone should notice.

kahuna

  • Posts: 202
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2019, 11:10:35 AM »
Sorry but the VNPCs would notice the random guy following through the gate, and would likely notice the rinther cloaked person or MUL following someone in. Completely unrealistic and the house wouldn't have a gate guard protecting their entire family who is an idiot.

Also you should have to L L L L L L LL L LL L L LL L L L L L L L L while in the bar and if you'd like to test a exceptional agility elf against any other races scan you should next to impossible, especially since they will just flee the second someone gets a look re-hide and come back to rob multiple items from the same targets.

Who determines their are VNPCs there? Who determines the VNPC behavior? If you apply this rule to compounds you could apply this rule to every single clan, area, road, building, etc. with a base of operations in every part of the game. It breaks gameplay IMHO. Players deal with players, involving the virtual world is messy and rarely if ever results in fostering a healthy RP environment.

Qzzrbl

  • Posts: 4959
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2019, 11:43:47 AM »
Stealth in Armageddon is high-risk high-reward.

Until it isn't.

I'd be all for curtailing those "this really isn't high-risk at this point anymore" scenarios.

'Cause there is an argument to be made that up top "ghosty invisible seriously nobody can see me without max scan and <redacted, probably>" tier stealth is just as detrimental to gameplay and a healthy RP environment as the inverse.


Derain

  • Posts: 857
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2019, 11:50:37 AM »
Also most compounds have a guard on both sides of the gate so while one is opening/closing it is safe to say the other is likely watching traffic, sneaking in:out of clan compounds is really just twinkish.

And I get it your against making it harder on sneaky PCs but I'm just saying perhaps they are capping way too high and it needs balance. Because if it's literally almost impossible to see them with stealth gear well shit.

Also PSA please stop hiding right in front of people as I've seen it break watch so many times and it's jarring as shit.

X-D

  • Posts: 5688
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2019, 06:01:32 PM »
I am with Derain on this.  But I do not want to see any changes to stealth itself.
Instead I want to see changes to steal, Crime code and scan/listen.

First, A standing PC with scan and listen on should be an "aware" Pc, giving at least a small neg to steal, that neg should be increased with higher scan and listen skill.

Failing a steal and covering should DRASTICALLY increase the odds to critical fail on any more attempts on the same target inside a reasonable time period AND should lower your stealth skill verses that PC for a few seconds.

Drastically alter the modifiers for weights. I still see VERY silly things getting stolen.

Lastly, Why is it that a crit fail on a npc invokes crime code but does not on a PC? That should be changed. Along with If you steal from a PC, successful or fail that PC should be immune to crime code verses you for like an hour. But not you verses him.

It is the current state of theft that makes many places empty. People get tired of it. Specially when you see the somebody tries to steal from you message 8 times in a row in 5 minutes. Honestly, that should be impossible. Sadly, the only way to make it so is to move to someplace safe from such things.
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Nile

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2019, 06:05:31 PM »
One thing is certain: this has effectively killed social PCs going out in actual public to socialise. The taverns in Allanak are constantly empty and whenever a group starts, someone gets robbed and every single PC finds something else to do. I'm guilty myself. I never go into the taverns anymore as it is just plain old boring theft.

Imo, it isnt the code's fault, but the players. About 80% of my PCs have been stealthy types and I always found it incredibly easy and rewarding to throw out an emote (big fucking deal if it breaks your hide. you can emote, type a direction, and be out of their line of sight instantly. I've also shouted from other rooms before running off. Whispered in people's ears. Most of the time it never even broke my hide. Semotes are RP, but they are incredibly boring in a tavern-type situation. You might as wel be playing with yourself.

I made a thread about this ages ago and a bunch of people threw a hissy fit when I said their RP is shit. Wonder if the same response will happen now the game-world is genuinely on the decline.
Free your hate.

lairos

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2019, 09:07:49 PM »
Who determines their are VNPCs there? Who determines the VNPC behavior? If you apply this rule to compounds you could apply this rule to every single clan, area, road, building, etc. with a base of operations in every part of the game. It breaks gameplay IMHO. Players deal with players, involving the virtual world is messy and rarely if ever results in fostering a healthy RP environment.

Pretty sure that would be staff and they are also listed in room descriptions and we can all use common sense. I am pretty confident these behaviors are also controlled by staff. I believe anytime someone wants to break into a compound or otherwise they should be sending in reports about them so the world can react appropriately. This is not a game that is entirely centered around PC's vs Pc's. While staff try and allow things to remain PC Vs. PC there are many things that are not included in that and one of them would breaking into compounds. I don't think this doesn't foster a healthy RP environment, I think it just makes the game more realistic than thinking someone can do whatever they want regardless of their environment. Also, most of the major compounds from merchant houses, nobles, ect...that have the coin? They have already thought of people scaling their walls and placed countermeasures such as spikes, shards or otherwise to make it a very, very painful experience and likely to attract attention.

I completely agree with X-D and I suppose the main point. When your stealth is about as good, if not better than being invisible by means of magick, there is an issue. Stealing 1 item per person as you're moving through the tavern is one thing, but stealing from the same people over and over again, if that is happening, is silly and pretty unrealistic IMO. Someone actively scanning the room, emoting looking around should not have to sit there and spam look or watch shadow just to get through when the reverse is completely different if stats and skill are decent enough.
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ghanima

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2019, 11:49:43 PM »
Just remember, it is possible to make yourself 100% steal-proof with a few simple practices. You can effectively nullify a thief's power. Maybe he can use his invisibility-hide so that you can't ever see him, but he can't touch you unless you set it up so he can.

Thieves are not overpowered, thief victims are.

kahuna

  • Posts: 202
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2019, 12:32:54 AM »
Just remember, it is possible to make yourself 100% steal-proof with a few simple practices. You can effectively nullify a thief's power. Maybe he can use his invisibility-hide so that you can't ever see him, but he can't touch you unless you set it up so he can.

Thieves are not overpowered, thief victims are.

Have to agree here. I don't know how you can complain about thieves when there are so few active at any given time. You can't steal from closed containers and damn near everything closes nowadays.  People complaining about not getting an emote is also a baseless accusation. Nobody is obligated to emote to you in any situation much less when they're about to steal something from you.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1973
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2019, 01:16:24 AM »
Don't forget: Getting spotted is basically a death sentence for a sneaky character. Everyone complains about never seeing the thief, but when they do see the thief they instantly share the full mdesc and sdesc with every Templar and Soldier in the game.

ghanima

  • Posts: 90
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2019, 01:16:43 AM »
Actually, kahuna, you can get to closed containers via the latch/unlatch command (which works off your sleight of hand skill), but there is of course difficulty and risk involved. Moreover, not all containers are equal. Some cannot be peeked in, based on their whereabouts on the person, and of course some objects are simply too cumbersome to be lifted. The mechanics of this are easy to learn and once doing so you can make yourself 100% invulnerable to theft. If that's not overpowered in favor of the thief victim, then nothing is.

I agree re: the obligation to emote while stealing. I really don't think seeing that emote from a "someone" will make you feel any better about being pickpocketed. It's just something convenient to say when there is no emote. Whatever the case, there's clearly something about being stolen from that seems to enrage players almost more than being pkilled.

X-D

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2019, 02:13:04 AM »
Kahuna.

First off, the number of active thieves does not matter. There could be a single one doing the theft of ten, the outcome is the same as if there was ten.

Secondly...really, your solution to poor RP and code faults is to put everything into a closeable bag inside a wearable closeable container? Yeah that makes total RP sense. Oh hey wait a moment to attack while I get some weapons out from this bag in a bag.
Open pack
get bag pack
open bag
get sword bag
get club bag
close bag
ep sword
You don't have that.
I
bag
club
ep club
you don't have that.

Which is another thing (I have actually seen the above, least the things poofing from inventory) How exactly does somebody nab things you are actively handling? Oh right...code limits.

Ghanima
Not so much getting stolen from as getting stolen from in a manner that is impossible to reconcile with reality and having no recourse at all. Somebody nabs my skinning knife from my boot...meh, alright...it is small I was not paying attention. Somebody nabs this spiky mace that I emoted holding under my arm? Something that would be impossible to do in reality? Or, Somebody fails  3 times then succeeds then fails 4 more times then succeeds while Scan, listen, stand, emote standing in a corner with nobody around me?  Where EVEN if they did fail and reveal themselves I STILL have no recourse. I cannot yell "Thief thief!" and have soldiers swarm them. I can take no aggressive action at all.

If somebody tries to PK my guy, I can take actions.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 02:23:12 AM by X-D »
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Nile

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2019, 02:26:08 AM »
Heh, I never get the opposition to RPing in a RPI. Always makes me think it's just a bunch of folks who don't realise how easy it is to make things like this into an actual  scene of sorts rather than a de facto vNPC interaction, Or they are just jumping to conclusions I already pointed out are baseless, such  as emoting and having  someone look at you when you can lilterally emote, enter a direction and be gone from the room before anyone can stand up from the bar.
Free your hate.

X-D

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2019, 02:29:42 AM »
Also Nile, Much of the reason for code is to police the players.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

ghanima

  • Posts: 90
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2019, 02:51:22 AM »
Ghanima
Not so much getting stolen from as getting stolen from in a manner that is impossible to reconcile with reality and having no recourse at all. Somebody nabs my skinning knife from my boot...meh, alright...it is small I was not paying attention. Somebody nabs this spiky mace that I emoted holding under my arm? Something that would be impossible to do in reality? Or, Somebody fails  3 times then succeeds then fails 4 more times then succeeds while Scan, listen, stand, emote standing in a corner with nobody around me?  Where EVEN if they did fail and reveal themselves I STILL have no recourse. I cannot yell "Thief thief!" and have soldiers swarm them. I can take no aggressive action at all.

If somebody tries to PK my guy, I can take actions.

I can only speak from my experiences, not others, but these sorts of incidents almost never happen. Or if so, once in a great great while. You emoted holding your mace and moments later it got stolen? Maybe the thief sneaked in after you emoted. I have a have a hard time imagining this happens every day and every time you enter the Gaj you're robbed of six or more items in one go. I'm sure it happens, I doubt it happens as a regular course.

And if that isn't enough, I repeat: make yourself invulnerable to stealing and all of the above becomes a non issue. You have the power to fully neutralize the steal skill. Imagine if I could fully neutralize the attack command! It's that powerful. How much more in your favor do you need?

X-D

  • Posts: 5688
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2019, 03:23:11 AM »
Because it is rather silly/unrealistic to have to jump through those kinds of code hoops to have to deal with code limits and the people who take advantage of them. As I already posted.

As to how often it happens...what does that have to do with anything? Once is too much and it happens quite a bit more often then that. If it did not this thread would not exist and those public gathering spots would have a few more PCs in them.

And "in your favor" I think you are rather missing the point of a RP game. Especially a coded RP game.

Yes, my PC can jump through silly unrealistic hoops to make sure this one thing does not happen...Of course he leaves himself open to other things happening then. But hey, who cares about immersion...AmIRight?


Also, you like to pick each example as its own thing, does this one thing happen every time? Of course not. But there is a range of things, all just as bad or worse and together, yes, they happen all the time.

One more thing, Staff makes changes all the time to make it a bit harder or realistic to train skills, look at recent ranged changes. As it stands, long as you are willing to max out stealth first, training steal is pretty darn safe and fast leaving that skill with no checks or balances in training or otherwise.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 03:34:08 AM by X-D »
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

ghanima

  • Posts: 90
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2019, 06:07:09 AM »
Because it is rather silly/unrealistic to have to jump through those kinds of code hoops to have to deal with code limits and the people who take advantage of them. As I already posted.

Wearing armor to better protect yourself from attacks could just as easily be deemed jumping through code hoops. There are a lot of things we do, codedly, to better protect ourselves and I don't hear anyone declaring the unfairness of it. Coordinating what you wear and how you store things is something anyone in the real world might do to avoid being pickpocketed. There are certain cities I travel to where I do exactly that all the time. It's actually quite simple and not a big sacrifice to go through. It's also as IC as it is OOC.

Quote
As to how often it happens...what does that have to do with anything? Once is too much and it happens quite a bit more often then that. If it did not this thread would not exist and those public gathering spots would have a few more PCs in them.

Because the more you constrain the game with rules and policies and limitations, the less fun it becomes. Because implementing certain coded defenses should be balanced, not done simply because a thing has the potential for abuse. Everything can be abused. How do you stop people form overhunting? How do you stop people from spamming skills? How do you stop people from not talking about real world things like airplanes and automobiles IC? You could create a coded means of preventing almost all of these, but it would come at a cost.

However, if everything which can be abused should be prevented with a coded defense mechanism, what is your proposal for the abuse that happens when a player makes him or herself 100% steal proof?

Qzzrbl

  • Posts: 4959
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2019, 07:02:32 AM »
Good lord did wearing armor and that exploity bag trick just get conflated under the banner of jumping through code hoops?

Come on.

Coded rules, constraints, and fun are not at all mutually exclusive. We'd all be rocking out on a MUSH and emoting through all of our skills if that were the case.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 07:06:02 AM by Qzzrbl »

ghanima

  • Posts: 90
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2019, 08:12:50 AM »
What exploity bag trick? I'm talking about not putting specific items in specific containers, or wearing specific items on specific locations, much as I would do in the real world if wanting to avoid being pickpocketed.

I have no idea what the purpose of putting x number of items in a bunch of bags is for. If it's to avoid being stolen, there are way simpler ways to go about it (and realistic ones). If all this time you guys thought I was suggesting some coded trick with bags then we're not even having the same discussion.

So here's what I mean: some containers can be peeked into, some cannot. Why? Because of where they are located on your body. Believe it or not there is some realism at play in the code with regards to peek and steal. Furthermore, some containers can be stolen from and some cannot. Some items can be stolen and some cannot. Some can be stolen in one place, but not in another. There are more details at play as well, but it's probably not permitted to discuss those specifics here. I think you get my point regardless.

I maintain there are completely realistic methods of being 100% steal proof, methods one would employ in the real world to do the exact same thing. Bags have nothing to do with this discussion (or at least my part in it).

Qzzrbl

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2019, 08:48:00 AM »
Ah, my bad.

Misunderstood what you were getting at there.

Still though, I maintain that you're-actually-invisible levels of stealth and a thief's ability to walk around a bar snootching whatever isn't nailed to a person doesn't make for a very healthy environment.

Hell, it's not even that I don't want to be stolen from in-game. I can roll with that. Definitely not a member of the stab-all-thieves gang.

It's just that having to pretend my character's eyes have simply stopped working because the code offers no method of letting me pick out that mook that's already soft-failed two steal attempts without rolling the right stats and scan sitting at master a is kinda ridiculous.

Happens more often than you'd think.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 09:46:47 AM by Qzzrbl »

SmashedTregil

  • Posts: 196
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2019, 09:17:16 AM »
Does super stealth works only for celves with high agility? Or can any miscreant with human level agility capable of this immunity?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 09:34:31 AM by SmashedTregil »
Peering into the darkness, your voice uncertain, you say, in sirihish:
     "You be wary, you lot. It ain' I who's locked 'p here with yeh. it's the whol
e bunch of youse that's locked down here with meh."

kahuna

  • Posts: 202
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2019, 09:24:38 AM »
This discussion comes up every few years on the gdb.

Here's a thread from 2005 someone complaining about steal and wanting a coded limit on how many steal attempts you can make:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,13188.msg135202.html#msg135202

Another thread complaining about being stolen from 5 times in a row:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,4213.msg35333.html#msg35333

An announcement about them changing steal and making it harder back in 2006:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,18229.msg192440.html#msg192440


It is blatantly obvious that players on the side of "steal is too powerful" have
been stolen from in game and can't retaliate with a PK like X-D would want.

This is the same as people making threads about peraine when they die to it. Or some recent archery thread about how you
should be able to guard people from it. These are knee-jerk reactions to losing a PC or not being able to 'win' in
a certain situation. The problem with this way of thinking is that it's illogical to say that the game mechanics
need to change to suite your needs as a player for your play style. I don't believe that's how we should design game mechanics. The game is
fairly well balanced from what I can see but those who want it changed will always complain one way or another that they can't
"win" in a situation that they want to win in.

Archery PCs are killed all the time. Peraine isn't an instant kill in every situation. And believe it or not sneaky PCs and thieves are caught all the time and executed.




SmashedTregil

  • Posts: 196
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2019, 09:33:27 AM »
Well. If someone seriously failed a bunch of times and are still at it, I would consider it worthy of a player complaint.


I don't have a problem things like stealing from inventories, etc. Although the mace in XDs example must have been super light.

I really hate this "make the change I want, or players will leave the game" stance. Especially if players are 'not' United in a one front about the issue.
Peering into the darkness, your voice uncertain, you say, in sirihish:
     "You be wary, you lot. It ain' I who's locked 'p here with yeh. it's the whol
e bunch of youse that's locked down here with meh."

SmashedTregil

  • Posts: 196
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2019, 09:36:50 AM »
One way to fix this is to limit the bonus to stealth related activities that agility gives.

Right after we limit the bonus to everything that strength gives.

And give celves ability to transform into were rats.
Peering into the darkness, your voice uncertain, you say, in sirihish:
     "You be wary, you lot. It ain' I who's locked 'p here with yeh. it's the whol
e bunch of youse that's locked down here with meh."

Qzzrbl

  • Posts: 4959
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2019, 09:41:44 AM »
are there any arguments for maintaining practically undetectable stealth and uncounterable spam theft attempts that don't basically boil down to "you're just mad you got got"?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 09:43:55 AM by Qzzrbl »

kahuna

  • Posts: 202
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2019, 09:51:29 AM »
are there any arguments for maintaining practically undetectable stealth and uncounterable spam theft attempts that don't basically boil down to "you're just mad you got got"?

You're claiming undetectable stealth and spam theft attempts which just isn't true.  There are a hundred ways to deal with a spammy thief and stealth guilds.

SmashedTregil

  • Posts: 196
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2019, 09:58:34 AM »
Like what?

Let's say there is an elf in your apartment and your scan isn't picking him up because of his insane agility. What can you do?
Peering into the darkness, your voice uncertain, you say, in sirihish:
     "You be wary, you lot. It ain' I who's locked 'p here with yeh. it's the whol
e bunch of youse that's locked down here with meh."

Qzzrbl

  • Posts: 4959
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2019, 09:59:47 AM »
are there any arguments for maintaining practically undetectable stealth and uncounterable spam theft attempts that don't basically boil down to "you're just mad you got got"?

You're claiming undetectable stealth and spam theft attempts which just isn't true.  There are a hundred ways to deal with a spammy thief and stealth guilds.

Name three mundane methods that don't involve perception skills that get largely invalidated by agility and equipment bonuses to stealth.

I feel a fool for having played for fifteen years and not discovering any.

SmashedTregil

  • Posts: 196
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2019, 10:00:09 AM »
Do all miscreants have infallible stealth? Or is it all about celf agility?
Peering into the darkness, your voice uncertain, you say, in sirihish:
     "You be wary, you lot. It ain' I who's locked 'p here with yeh. it's the whol
e bunch of youse that's locked down here with meh."

kahuna

  • Posts: 202
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2019, 10:05:56 AM »
are there any arguments for maintaining practically undetectable stealth and uncounterable spam theft attempts that don't basically boil down to "you're just mad you got got"?

You're claiming undetectable stealth and spam theft attempts which just isn't true.  There are a hundred ways to deal with a spammy thief and stealth guilds.

Name three mundane methods that don't involve perception skills that get largely invalidated by agility and equipment bonuses to stealth.

I feel a fool for having played for fifteen years and not discovering any.

I'm confused are you saying you want mundane methods to detect stealth? IE: You want a fighter to be able to detect a stealth PC? If that's the case you simply go ask your friend who does have master scan to come with you. Or you bribe a templar or magicker to find them with non-mundane methods? I could list all the ways to break stealth but these are the mechanics of the game and I'll leave that up to the staff to reveal if they so choose.

lairos

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2019, 10:07:23 AM »
Don't forget: Getting spotted is basically a death sentence for a sneaky character. Everyone complains about never seeing the thief, but when they do see the thief they instantly share the full mdesc and sdesc with every Templar and Soldier in the game.

I've seen the complete and total opposite of this. There are arguments on both sides and it is not "basically a death sentence". I'm sorry, but this is not always the case. While it is up to players and it can happen? It does not make it so to be what you claim.

You can be a widely known assassin and still come sit in the Gaj. You can be widely known as a thief and still not have problems.

There have been nerfs across the board and with many of the additions it is very easy for a thief to survive and get away even if caught. Though, with the level people start at based on where they used to start at? They can steal pretty darn well day 1. Same can be said for others and killing. You are far more persuaded to go and start doing them because you start higher and don't have as much skin in the game as you would when you're starting lower and having to skill up more before you go out as you once did. NPC killing and thefts are far more common now than they had been before the class changes.

This still doesn't make sense that you can spot someone concealed by magick far easier than you could someone hiding and stealing 6 items from you if you're looking or in a position that doesn't make sense. Just because you can codedly do something doesn't mean it makes RP sense to do so. It also doesn't make sense to be able to steal weapons off someone's belt if your cloak is closed around them, but it still happens.

are there any arguments for maintaining practically undetectable stealth and uncounterable spam theft attempts that don't basically boil down to "you're just mad you got got"?

You're claiming undetectable stealth and spam theft attempts which just isn't true.  There are a hundred ways to deal with a spammy thief and stealth guilds.

There is no way to prove that one way or another and there are not a hundred ways to deal with a spammy thief that is an overexageration and it has already been stated that just because you can make coded ways to avoid some theft, doesn't make it right. As I already said, just because you can codedly do something doesn't mean it makes RP sense to do so in all situations.
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SmashedTregil

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2019, 10:09:56 AM »
Kahuna

Take two people. Both miscreants. One has AI agility, the other AI wisdom. Both have highest hide and scan maxed out. Lock them in one room.

The ai agility hides. The ai wisdom scans.

The ai wisdom guy with scan cannot pick up the stealth one after typing look 25 times.

Your personal opinion. Is that an okey situation?
Peering into the darkness, your voice uncertain, you say, in sirihish:
     "You be wary, you lot. It ain' I who's locked 'p here with yeh. it's the whol
e bunch of youse that's locked down here with meh."

lairos

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2019, 10:11:05 AM »

I'm confused are you saying you want mundane methods to detect stealth? IE: You want a fighter to be able to detect a stealth PC? If that's the case you simply go ask your friend who does have master scan to come with you. Or you bribe a templar or magicker to find them with non-mundane methods? I could list all the ways to break stealth but these are the mechanics of the game and I'll leave that up to the staff to reveal if they so choose.

I think you have a very incorrect view of how hide/sneak actually work and what can be detected by what, but I can't really get into that without discussing coded abilities. Just because you have master scan does not ever mean you will detect someone with master hide/sneak. There are many ways to aide your sneak/hide, but there are very, very few ways to increase your scan to be able to detect.
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Qzzrbl

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2019, 10:16:48 AM »
I'm confused are you saying you want mundane methods to detect stealth?

why yes a mundane method of dealing with mundane things what a concept

IE: You want a fighter to be able to detect a stealth PC?

The fewer assumptions you make, the better.

If that's the case you simply go ask your friend who does have master scan to come with you.

It's really fun when you are the friend with master scan and still manage to be useless.

Or you bribe a templar or magicker to find them with non-mundane methods?

that's a bit extreme

I could list all the ways to break stealth but these are the mechanics of the game and I'll leave that up to the staff to reveal if they so choose.

ok

Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2019, 10:20:12 AM »
Heh.

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,54754.msg1032179.html#msg1032179

Some of the methods to deter theft are in this thread but other people said it was twinky. Jury is still out.

Edited to add the most common one I know in case you don't want to search the thread.

Public service announcement, put things inside a container in your pack that’s large, like coins inside a large wooden box or large bag with other things essentially only having one object in your pack, and close the internal container.

Provided you keep enough weight of items in the bag or container it will be unstealable from while in your main backpack.

You can’t open things inside of things with unlatch.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 10:22:47 AM by ScramblesForPurchase »

Derain

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2019, 12:54:37 PM »
The other thing that needs to be looked at is the fact that thieves without even being able to see what's under someone's cloak can still just go 'steal sword' 'steal axe'. Etc and the script will still run and steal the first one of those it finds, great RP folks.

SmashedTregil

  • Posts: 196
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2019, 02:47:45 PM »
Weeeeell. It does check for failure. So if you go steal axe and there isn't one, you just risked failure for nothing.

And it's not so impossible. I mean, you blindly slide your hand in and feel our for the handle. Not too improbable.

It's hilarious. So many people said celves suck due to strength penalties. Finally a guild appeared that allowed celves to put their strengths to use, and woooo ... People are afraid to leave their compounds.
Peering into the darkness, your voice uncertain, you say, in sirihish:
     "You be wary, you lot. It ain' I who's locked 'p here with yeh. it's the whol
e bunch of youse that's locked down here with meh."

Qzzrbl

  • Posts: 4959
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2019, 03:00:13 PM »
Weeeeell. It does check for failure. So if you go steal axe and there isn't one, you just risked failure for nothing.

And it's not so impossible. I mean, you blindly slide your hand in and feel our for the handle. Not too improbable.

It's hilarious. So many people said celves suck due to strength penalties. Finally a guild appeared that allowed celves to put their strengths to use, and woooo ... People are afraid to leave their compounds.

Almost certain these feats aren't exclusive to celves, just they have a much easier time of it.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 03:01:47 PM by Qzzrbl »

Derain

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2019, 03:46:45 PM »
Thanks to everyone who didn't post on a throw away GDB handle and actually tried to talk about the obvious balance issue and isn't being condescending.

SmashedTregil

  • Posts: 196
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2019, 03:53:28 PM »
Thanks to everyone who didn't post on a throw away GDB handle and actually tried to talk about the obvious balance issue and isn't being condescending.

The lowest post count on this thread is 90


Sooo, can someone say if humans can do the same stuff? I know as a human with maxed steal I Crit failed steal numerous times. 
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 03:55:35 PM by SmashedTregil »
Peering into the darkness, your voice uncertain, you say, in sirihish:
     "You be wary, you lot. It ain' I who's locked 'p here with yeh. it's the whol
e bunch of youse that's locked down here with meh."

X-D

  • Posts: 5688
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2019, 04:01:54 PM »
Quote
Weeeeell. It does check for failure. So if you go steal axe and there isn't one, you just risked failure for nothing.

What risk? The odds of a crit fail with maxed celf hide is so tiny as to be treated as not existing.

Also, I have not been "got" in a VERY long time. I have had recent issues with attempts...many Many attempts in a row on multiple occasions. Nothing that mattered stolen, but I do not pay much attention to lower end stuff.

As to the "light mace" higher quality weapons and armor do tend to be lighter. But it was a fictional example, Insert other item with things sticking out here.

On to recourse.

IRL I have had 2 pickpocket attempts on me that I know of. One he was actually good enough that I noticed to late to stop him from making his escape, though I did notice early enough to stop the theft from being successful. The second was not so lucky. Both times in crowds, the second guy I actually did yell "Fuckin thief!" as I proceeded to give him a beat down...security did not hurry to break it up. The crowd simply circled giving enough room and watching.

Personally I think it would be pretty cool if arm crime code worked like that. Thief can be beat to a pulp by victim but not killed. Really don't understand why it is not that way.
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Armaddict

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2019, 04:34:19 PM »
Quote
Weeeeell. It does check for failure. So if you go steal axe and there isn't one, you just risked failure for nothing.

What risk? The odds of a crit fail with maxed celf hide is so tiny as to be treated as not existing.

Also, I have not been "got" in a VERY long time. I have had recent issues with attempts...many Many attempts in a row on multiple occasions. Nothing that mattered stolen, but I do not pay much attention to lower end stuff.

As to the "light mace" higher quality weapons and armor do tend to be lighter. But it was a fictional example, Insert other item with things sticking out here.

On to recourse.

IRL I have had 2 pickpocket attempts on me that I know of. One he was actually good enough that I noticed to late to stop him from making his escape, though I did notice early enough to stop the theft from being successful. The second was not so lucky. Both times in crowds, the second guy I actually did yell "Fuckin thief!" as I proceeded to give him a beat down...security did not hurry to break it up. The crowd simply circled giving enough room and watching.

Personally I think it would be pretty cool if arm crime code worked like that. Thief can be beat to a pulp by victim but not killed. Really don't understand why it is not that way.

Only pickpockets used to be able to 'feel free' with theft, there was always risk of crit fail even for exceptional agility city elves with advanced steal.

If theft has gotten out of control, it's likely a class rebalance issue.

But any discussion of 'But the vnpcs' or 'but the crowded room' is moot until such a point that the vnpcs of that crowded room also behave virtually in the direction of thievery.  The only thieves you have right now are PC's, so throwing the virtual protection framework up is neither helpful or conducive to good thievery roleplay.  All it does is say you don't want to be stolen from.

Item weights already contribute to success rates, meaning my burglars felt far more comfortable stealing small objects than being told to lift an item from someone's belt unless it was a knife.

This is not an 'obvious' balance issue, but rather a pretty complicated one that I'm not certain is actually stacked in anyone's favor.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Nile

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2019, 06:49:10 PM »
Is there a way we could integrate mood into scan code? Or a gimped form of reveal?

Albeit in a more hack'n'slash' MUD, I think the premise itself is realistic. That is, setting mood to paranoid debuffed a bunch of stuff but made you considerably harder to steal from or even be backstabbed. If there's a thief at the bar and everyone knows,  PCs could go into paranoid mode. Not sure where the penalties would go in Armageddon, but this is essentially what people are RPing already; frequently emoting looking around, checking their own pockets etc.

Just an idea. Again, I don't kknow if this is even workable with our code since I don't know shit about shit with that.
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Nile

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2019, 06:54:47 PM »
Do all miscreants have infallible stealth? Or is it all about celf agility?

Having played a human teenager miscreant i had pretty ridiculous stealth. I could spot whirans/sneakies nobody else IG seemed to be capable of at the time where I was. I also never had any fear in any situation really. I was always in complete control due to the knowledge I was as close to a ghost as you could get.

it's likely there's about maybe half a dozen, at most, PCs at any one time that had scan to levels they'd spot me. Celf misreants are next level, but humans can go far too with age bonus.
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Derain

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2019, 07:52:09 PM »
My experience had been even with top notch wisdom and master scan, most elves are impossible to spot and if you do happen to see a shadow they are gone before you can type watch shadow and your next check on scan may not see them.

Veselka

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2019, 08:05:03 PM »
My feeling is that stealth should decrease as you fail (Call it a de-buff). So if you fail once, your stealth begins to subtract. Fail twice, cumulative, etc. If you think you are such a good thief you can actively avoid people who are actively looking for you -- By all means, keep attempting to steal.

But I agree RP wise, it feels ridiculous when everyone knows there is a thief in a crowded bar, there are maybe 3-6 PCs actively looking, and the thief can just pluck their goods and peace out without consequence.

In general I feel that continuing stealth activity after being nearly spotted should be cumulatively more difficult. Not impossible. The 'masters' should still be quite adroit, but I imagine it also comes with a bit of PC intelligence, not reliance on binary (and somewhat unbelievable) code. Spamming multiple steal attempts is not only poor RP, it goes against the spirit of the game -- Code = RP, and that's not a well RP'd character that hides behind the code as a safety blanket.

As with most things I think there's a balance to be found here. I do agree that thieves tend to be crucified when they are discovered. Perhaps Allanak can incorporate some binary laws around thieving. Caught once, lose a finger. Caught twice, lose a hand. Caught three times, lose your head. Maybe a tradition they are proud of.

There are plenty of +hide gear, but no +scan gear that I am aware of. It would be nice to have a balance to such equipment without being overtly silly.
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rinthrat

  • Posts: 124
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2019, 08:07:43 PM »
The other thing that needs to be looked at is the fact that thieves without even being able to see what's under someone's cloak can still just go 'steal sword' 'steal axe'. Etc and the script will still run and steal the first one of those it finds, great RP folks.
Weapons that are covered still disappearing may also happen because they can show up with peek.

SmashedTregil

  • Posts: 196
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2019, 08:17:48 PM »
Maybe there needs to be partial success to scan. Where you can detect the presence and set watch on it. But you cant target it with anything else and the sdesc/mdesc is not displayed. This way people know someone's in the room, they just cant quiet find them.  This way, the sneaky knows he's been found out, but yet located and he knows it's time to get out of there, instead of continuing on with other stealth skills.


Or ... next time someone gets repeatedly failed steal on, they should just file a player complaint on.
Peering into the darkness, your voice uncertain, you say, in sirihish:
     "You be wary, you lot. It ain' I who's locked 'p here with yeh. it's the whol
e bunch of youse that's locked down here with meh."

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6213
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2019, 09:35:57 PM »
Quote
Or ... next time someone gets repeatedly failed steal on, they should just file a player complaint on.

Yeah.  A lot of the scenarios described as to why it needs balancing are specific scenarios where I'd expect someone else to be let in on it to see if things were legit or abused.

I -have- played that carnifex distraction elf for other thieves before.  It's not common but we do try to do that sometimes.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Derain

  • Posts: 857
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2019, 02:08:50 PM »
The other thing that needs to be looked at is the fact that thieves without even being able to see what's under someone's cloak can still just go 'steal sword' 'steal axe'. Etc and the script will still run and steal the first one of those it finds, great RP folks.
Weapons that are covered still disappearing may also happen because they can show up with peek.

They don't show up if the cloak is closed you'd have to unlatch the persons cloak.. which I've seen not be done more than a handful of times now.

SmashedTregil

  • Posts: 196
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2019, 02:11:24 PM »
Is this a recent change? It was possible to see the weapons despite closed cloak for years if you have peek.
Peering into the darkness, your voice uncertain, you say, in sirihish:
     "You be wary, you lot. It ain' I who's locked 'p here with yeh. it's the whol
e bunch of youse that's locked down here with meh."

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6213
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2019, 04:43:59 PM »
Peek with a closed cloak still shows things on belt, but you cannot peek into the cloak without unlatching.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 194
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2019, 05:31:10 PM »
That's if the cloak is a container and you have an item 'inside' the cloak. Items under the cloak that are covered (belt, items on belt, shirt, etc.) Are visible with peek.
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Derain

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Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2019, 06:04:15 PM »
Swear I just tried it recently and it didn't show the weapons.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6213
Re: Stealth vs Scan/theft
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2019, 11:19:10 PM »
Swear I just tried it recently and it didn't show the weapons.

It doesn't show with every attempt until very high levels of peek if I recall.  Sometimes you'll catch only one or two items beneath the cloak, sometimes none, sometimes all.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger