Author Topic: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?  (Read 2256 times)

Fathi

  • Posts: 4554
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2019, 09:03:43 PM »
Duplicated NPCs are a thing. We've all seen it, we all know about it, but considering it keeps happening and it's been happening for the last, what, half a decade at least? I'm going to just guess working as intended at this point.

It's not a bug it's a feature?  Duplicate NPCs are actually highly problematic for sneakies.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to find out that there's intent to fix it. Every time I walk past a list of ten HG soldiers or some other similar thing, there's a small part of me that wishes something could finally be done about it. I just don't really believe it'll happen.

Staff have told me in the past that it's cool to wish up if you come across big groups of soldiers. Just "wish all Hey, there's 12 soldiers in the Gaj right now, unless that's for a reason could someone scatter them?" should work.

(If this has changed, obvs a staffer can correct me.)
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Brokkr

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Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2019, 09:28:17 PM »
Npc soldiers shouldn't spawn instantly, at all. It is bad and has always been bad. They used to have master scan too.



**Fixed that for you, rather then perpetuating this tired old song. ~Shabago.

All NPCs spawn instantly.  Not really sure what you meant by this.

kahuna

  • Posts: 202
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2019, 10:01:25 PM »
Npc soldiers shouldn't spawn instantly, at all. It is bad and has always been bad. They used to have master scan too.



**Fixed that for you, rather then perpetuating this tired old song. ~Shabago.

All NPCs spawn instantly.  Not really sure what you meant by this.

I think he means the way certain pcs are given commands to spawn them instantly wherever they want via certain commands.

Greve

  • Posts: 174
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2019, 10:14:50 PM »
The soldiers aren't individually too tough, but the fact of the matter is that if you're ever doing anything where fighting an NPC soldier is an option, you're likely to be fighting three or four of them. The half-giant ones are of course absurd, it being a race that really shouldn't exist, but the general skill level of basic soldiers is such that any competent fighter can stand toe to toe with one or two of them and have plenty of time to emote or whatever. If not for the fact that fully half of them do horrendous wounds on every swing, it'd be fine. The game would be better served without a race that does five times as much damage as normal, but that issue is by no means limited to NPC soldiers.

Brokkr

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Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2019, 10:46:32 PM »
Npc soldiers shouldn't spawn instantly, at all. It is bad and has always been bad. They used to have master scan too.



**Fixed that for you, rather then perpetuating this tired old song. ~Shabago.

All NPCs spawn instantly.  Not really sure what you meant by this.

I think he means the way certain pcs are given commands to spawn them instantly wherever they want via certain commands.

You are mistaken, no PC has that ability.  Templar’s can spawn soldiers in very specific rooms, like barracks, where there would be a concentration of vNPC soldiers at all times.

Riev

  • Posts: 5611
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2019, 09:15:05 AM »
There have been times that I have noticed an NPC Soldier attacking someone (like a rat) and they 'summon' other soldiers to attack that poof away at the end. Its some sort of reinforcement script.

That may be what people are talking about. The ability to have soldiers in a room where there previously were no NPCs. I always assumed it a 'feature' that the virtual NPCs are coming to help the actual NPC.
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Brokkr

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Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2019, 09:54:45 AM »
There are such scripts, to reinforce that you have to take into account the virtual world.  They are not that common and afaik none are on PC callable NPCs, though I may be mistaken there.  Not having such scripts would be counter to a premise of this thread, because there would be even more NPCs needed.

This isn't a hack an slash where the spawned NPC represents the extent of the challenge.  Devirtualization happens and one should take into account the virtual world in part because of that.

Dar

  • Posts: 1526
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2019, 11:25:03 AM »
Pretty sure templars can summon guards in more plAces then just the barracks. Whether it's supposed to be that way, or not I don't know. I never found it to be a problem. Templars are pretty squishy against long lived organized entities. The ability to have overwhelming force while inside the city seems like a thing that should be happening.

Lizzie

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Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2019, 01:31:38 PM »
Pretty sure templars can summon guards in more plAces then just the barracks. Whether it's supposed to be that way, or not I don't know. I never found it to be a problem. Templars are pretty squishy against long lived organized entities. The ability to have overwhelming force while inside the city seems like a thing that should be happening.

They can call nearby NPCs, I believe from 1 room away in any direction. Maybe anywhere within "look" distance (very far, far, near so 3 rooms away max)? But those aren't summoning NPCs out of virtual space into coded space. Those NPCs really were in those other rooms, and now they're standing with the templar.
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Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2019, 08:48:00 PM »
I have always found npc soldiers to be rather weak...somewhere around the 10-15 day byn warrior at the most.

And HG's...well, one should simply avoid messing with them.
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gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2019, 11:38:08 AM »
If having a zillion HG is preferred? Complete the rooftops across the city and allow movement through the main quarters using them (and maybe even out of the city).

If you don't want to copy-paste some rooftops across the city? Reduce the soldier population.
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gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2019, 11:40:05 AM »
Disregard.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 11:48:20 AM by gotdamnmiracle »
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kahuna

  • Posts: 202
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2019, 12:43:52 PM »
If having a zillion HG is preferred? Complete the rooftops across the city and allow movement through the main quarters using them (and maybe even out of the city).

If you don't want to copy-paste some rooftops across the city? Reduce the soldier population.

Being able to traverse the entire city via rooftop would be awesome.

Magnate

  • Posts: 113
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2019, 01:10:26 PM »
If rooftops are seeing traffic and more use; why wouldn't some soldiers post up there or even patrol them?

Riev

  • Posts: 5611
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2019, 01:14:55 PM »
If rooftops are seeing traffic and more use; why wouldn't some soldiers post up there or even patrol them?

I will kill them immediately, or throw them off the rooftops myself. Its dangerous up there.

The rooftops are supposed to give a sense of 'retreat' to a criminal, because only an enterprising Militia would go up there to chase down a criminal, knowing the rooftops are FULL of them.
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gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 855
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2019, 01:17:48 PM »
If rooftops are seeing traffic and more use; why wouldn't some soldiers post up there or even patrol them?

I will kill them immediately, or throw them off the rooftops myself. Its dangerous up there.

The rooftops are supposed to give a sense of 'retreat' to a criminal, because only an enterprising Militia would go up there to chase down a criminal, knowing the rooftops are FULL of them.

Absolutely, and there already are some criminal NPCs on the roofs of the southern quarter. I would love to see more life breathed into those roofs and make them essentially an extension of the Rinth. "Don't go on the rooftops unless you want to get stabbed, robbed, or both." It'd be great if they were full of hideyholes, shops, different groups. I absolutely love the flavor of the elven ghetto that already lives on the roof in the Commoner quarter.

If rooftops are seeing traffic and more use; why wouldn't some soldiers post up there or even patrol them?

Because it's inconvenient and borderline illegal to use them as transit. Think of cops. Why do cops walk a beat and patrol the streets? Because that's where normal law abiding citizens are. Not necessarily where crime is. But also some organizations HAVE rooftop guards, don't forget.

If having a zillion HG is preferred? Complete the rooftops across the city and allow movement through the main quarters using them (and maybe even out of the city).

If you don't want to copy-paste some rooftops across the city? Reduce the soldier population.

Being able to traverse the entire city via rooftop would be awesome.

I imagine the Noble quarter and Templar quarter would be out of the picture, or at least dangerous to get into, but having a full Gemmer, merchant, and Rinthi quarters? Oh yeah!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 01:20:55 PM by gotdamnmiracle »
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Magnate

  • Posts: 113
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2019, 01:27:44 PM »
I disagree.

If rooftops are used often by criminals, law enforcement would follow - be they soldiers or otherwise.

It isn't realistic to simply say, "they need a sense of retreat". Law enforcement (remember, these aren't cops in some democracy) do not want criminals to have a sense of retreat.

I will kill them immediately... Every PC you play would be inclined to kill them immediately? It sounds like you are taking it a tad personally and perhaps allowing emotions to block the fact that this is a role playing game where we play the roles of people in a particular world setting - not ourselves.

Soldiers in places of oppression usually go to where opposition gathers - not avoid it. If they are using the rooftops, they just make going to the rooftops illegal. If you want a sense of retreat, run off to the Labyrinth. To use "cops"  as a reference isn't really comparing apples-to-apples.

roughneck

  • Posts: 848
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2019, 01:39:31 PM »
Soldiers cost coins.

Nobles and merchants want to keep their coins.

Soldiers prevent crime, which means, fighting crime costs coins.

So why are nobles and merchants going to pay for crime-fighting on the rooftops?

The won't. Just like they won't pay for it in the labyrinth. Because, who cares about the people who live in those places, let them kill and steal from each other.

Tax money protects the rich, and in a place like Allanak, that privileged reality of the wealthy should slap you in the face.

Magnate

  • Posts: 113
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2019, 03:04:43 PM »
There is a whole lot of assumptions there; I'm not certain that is actually how it works with regards to taxes or who gets a say. Again - Allanak isn't a democracy.  Not by a longshot.

Neat discussion though!

Dar

  • Posts: 1526
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2019, 05:02:32 PM »
If reality followed your reasoning then going to the rinth would be illegal and the soldiers would go there. Since they don't, how would rooftops be different?

gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 855
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2019, 05:20:06 PM »
If reality followed your reasoning then going to the rinth would be illegal and the soldiers would go there. Since they don't, how would rooftops be different?

+1

I too see a few issues with reasoning in a post that admonishes others for making assumptions.
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Gunnerblaster

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Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2019, 08:23:26 PM »
I'd like to see (if they don't have it already) that NPC soldiers have mercy on.

And maybe a few more NPC soldiers have clubs instead of swords, so they can knock you out instead of killing you - and drag you to jail knocked out.  Does that work for NPCs, though?
Honestly, I feel like this one implementation may've saved so many PC's who've accidentally used 'kick' in a bar fight.

If militia could tell non-citizens apart from citizens (like having them recognize a flag on a PC), perhaps have them respond differently.

>If PC has flagCitizenAllanak;
>toggle mercy on
>Else
>toggle mercy off
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JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 194
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2019, 08:42:29 PM »
I'd like to see (if they don't have it already) that NPC soldiers have mercy on.

And maybe a few more NPC soldiers have clubs instead of swords, so they can knock you out instead of killing you - and drag you to jail knocked out.  Does that work for NPCs, though?
Honestly, I feel like this one implementation may've saved so many PC's who've accidentally used 'kick' in a bar fight.

If militia could tell non-citizens apart from citizens (like having them recognize a flag on a PC), perhaps have them respond differently.

>If PC has flagCitizenAllanak;
>toggle mercy on
>Else
>toggle mercy off

Thought this was already a thing. I know I've been knocked out by NPC guards and taken to jail before. As long as I have nosave on.
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Inks

  • Posts: 1269
Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2019, 07:14:11 AM »
Like 8 halfgiant soldiers standing right outside of the rinth seems a bit much

For about the last RL year.
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Enthemu

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Re: Are npc soldiers too buff and what would be a good way to fix it?
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2019, 09:41:34 AM »
Like 8 halfgiant soldiers standing right outside of the rinth seems a bit much

For about the last RL year.

If you think 8 is a lot, you should see how many are there virtually. We keep trying to tell them to move on, but they just love to hang out near the larger alley entrances.