Author Topic: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def  (Read 1303 times)

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1975
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2019, 05:13:01 PM »
If this ever did go in the game it shouldn't be restricted to clans, there should be public 'trainers' for all PCs to use.

I agree with this part, at least. Clans already have lots more opportunities to train without a significant risk of dying. That isn't true for indies, who have a hard time finding both safe places to train and people to train with.

Indies should have it hard. People seem to forget that just because one person can build up a huge, stupid amount of money spamming Kryl or something that that is how it should work for the rest if the Indie world. Nope, Indies in the rest of the world are miners and dung scrapers and such.

JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 194
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2019, 05:44:56 PM »
I'm taking this back cuz my emotions bled through.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 05:50:36 PM by JohnMichaelHenry »
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Dar

  • Posts: 1526
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2019, 06:08:47 PM »
If you can't play much, well that sucks, but you shouldn't be on the same level as those that can. Things are okay like they are IMO. Let's all agree there really is a problem before we start working on a solution?

Even if it it could make a player choose not to play? I'm playing right now, but plenty of times I chose not to. And a prospect of grinding was one of the factors that affected that decision.

I can safely say that the new and improved guild starting skills have encouraged me to play by tremendous amounts.



What about those awesome sergeants who start to schmooze from the word GO. Finding new contracts, recruiting new members, creating spy networks, creating support networks. Motivating and invigorating a shitton of content that makes it super fun for his members. Doing everything 'except' the most important thing - grinding skills.  Only to get insta OHKd by a tregil when he goes on a contract and people fail on their guard. 

RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 19134
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2019, 07:29:45 PM »
The gap between people who play a lot and people who play a little isn't really an issue you can fix without causing more problems. That can't really change, imo.

My main issue is when someone does find the time to train, and there's no one around, or no one at the right level for them around.

I love the idea of specific NPC's that come on a set schedule, and allow ranked people in clans to train or be taught their skills up to a certain level. That level being determined by their rank/or the clans status. So you don't end up with a Sergeant in the Byn who is outpaced by a local hunter/grebber following a similar schedule.

Maybe bring back Tor, with the highest level NPC instructors that offer skill training beyond simple sparring partners.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8057
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2019, 08:18:45 PM »
If you can't play much, well that sucks, but you shouldn't be on the same level as those that can. Things are okay like they are IMO. Let's all agree there really is a problem before we start working on a solution?

Even if it it could make a player choose not to play? I'm playing right now, but plenty of times I chose not to. And a prospect of grinding was one of the factors that affected that decision.

I can safely say that the new and improved guild starting skills have encouraged me to play by tremendous amounts.



What about those awesome sergeants who start to schmooze from the word GO. Finding new contracts, recruiting new members, creating spy networks, creating support networks. Motivating and invigorating a shitton of content that makes it super fun for his members. Doing everything 'except' the most important thing - grinding skills.  Only to get insta OHKd by a tregil when he goes on a contract and people fail on their guard.

I posit that grinding skills is not only "not" the most important thing, but all those OTHER things you mentioned ARE the most important thing. This isn't a hack-n-slash game. It contains H&S elements for sure, and the skill grind is important. But it's the interaction, the IC connections your character makes, that matter more than the coded skills.
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kahuna

  • Posts: 203
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2019, 08:23:05 PM »
If you're going to implement something like "trainers" in the game it will become MORE hack n slash. What's more hack and slash then going up to an NPC and typing train parry? The whole point of Arm's system is realism. You learn by doing, not by using NPCs to 'teach' you how to parry better. I would be more in favor of reminding powerful PCs that they can quite simply use the "teach" command.

Where does it end if you put something like this in the game? I don't have enough time to play so let's put crafting trainers in the game. What about trainers for magickers? Can we put those in as well? If it goes in for one it has to go in for all.

Heade

  • Posts: 837
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2019, 10:30:05 PM »
If this ever did go in the game it shouldn't be restricted to clans, there should be public 'trainers' for all PCs to use.

I agree with this part, at least. Clans already have lots more opportunities to train without a significant risk of dying. That isn't true for indies, who have a hard time finding both safe places to train and people to train with.

Indies should have it hard. People seem to forget that just because one person can build up a huge, stupid amount of money spamming Kryl or something that that is how it should work for the rest if the Indie world. Nope, Indies in the rest of the world are miners and dung scrapers and such.

Indies already DO have it hard in a ton of ways. There is no reason to add another coded way to make it more difficult on them. The decision to make this specific thing not available to indies wouldn't be motivated by realism or a desire to abide by the documentation of the game, but only by the "anti-indie" OOC bias that exists in some members of this community and has no intellectual foundation.
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Hauwke

  • Posts: 1975
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2019, 11:07:34 PM »
Indies are meant to be hard up, they are meant to struggle.

They are not meant to be both better at combat than a Bynner and richer than a Borsail noble. No way, no how.

And yet, we have situations where every second indie goes and spends 6 RL weeks logging or something until they have a billion coins and better gear then every clanned person.

Heade

  • Posts: 837
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2019, 11:50:47 PM »
Indies are meant to be hard up, they are meant to struggle.

They are not meant to be both better at combat than a Bynner and richer than a Borsail noble. No way, no how.

And yet, we have situations where every second indie goes and spends 6 RL weeks logging or something until they have a billion coins and better gear then every clanned person.

So you're mad at indies that grind. Grinding isn't easy or fun, but any PC, clanned or indie, can grind a bunch. That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of things that already make it hard on indie players in this game. The fact that some people generally don't like indies and actively want to discourage people from playing them doesn't mean that we need to give even more coded advantages to clans. They already have plenty.
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1975
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2019, 12:35:00 AM »
Indies are meant to be hard up, they are meant to struggle.

They are not meant to be both better at combat than a Bynner and richer than a Borsail noble. No way, no how.

And yet, we have situations where every second indie goes and spends 6 RL weeks logging or something until they have a billion coins and better gear then every clanned person.

So you're mad at indies that grind. Grinding isn't easy or fun, but any PC, clanned or indie, can grind a bunch. That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of things that already make it hard on indie players in this game. The fact that some people generally don't like indies and actively want to discourage people from playing them doesn't mean that we need to give even more coded advantages to clans. They already have plenty.

My problem isn't with them grinding. It's actually with the fact that they often surpass those in clans when they really, really shouldn't be on an everyday basis.

JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 194
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2019, 08:23:51 AM »
I don't believe that's true. I have seen some successful indies IG. But they are the exception, not the rule. I feel like I've always had it much easier as a clan member than any indie. Especially now after the code and class changes. It's much harder to do things on your own, and its much harder to sell all your goods. And that was intentional, if I understand things correctly.

I don't accept your premise that indies have more coins than a Borsail (even though you were probably exaggerating) And I do think that an independent would and should be more badass than a bynner, which they would have to be successful in order to do.
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Riev

  • Posts: 5611
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2019, 09:31:01 AM »
The indie/clan discussion, while beaten like a dead horse, is its own conversation.
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Heade

  • Posts: 837
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2019, 12:09:46 PM »
The indie/clan discussion, while beaten like a dead horse, is its own conversation.

Not when it's being used to justify whether or not to make a mechanic available to all people, or only to clans. It becomes a part of this conversation. I fail to see why people who play in clans should be allowed to forego grinding in favor of RP with limited time to play, while others shouldn't be able to do the same. This entire issue is being discussed as an option to aid an aging playerbase who has more real life things going on and less time available to grind. That particular issue isn't unique to players who only play in clans. So, if that is the true issue we're trying to solve, it should be an option available to everyone.

Honestly, I don't think the mechanic should be introduced at all. Not doing so keeps us all on relatively equal footing, except those of us with no real life obligations who can dedicate tons of playtime to the game. Those people get an advantage, but those people are also able to offer more to the game by being a more constant presence in the game world. I don't think the rest of the playerbase necessarily needs to be able to compete with those people(in lock-step, anyhow. Skill caps allow for competition over a long enough timeline). But, if anyone needs to be able to do so, then I think everyone needs to, because personal obligations and adulthood aren't unique to clan players.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 12:16:40 PM by Heade »
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Riev

  • Posts: 5611
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2019, 12:25:05 PM »
It hasn't ben determined if the base idea of training NPCs is even justified, regardless of it being 'for clans or indies'.

I don't think you're wrong in what you're arguing, it just is its own separate discussion unless staff say that there IS merit in adding an NPC trainer.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Heade

  • Posts: 837
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2019, 01:12:25 PM »
I don't think you're wrong in what you're arguing, it just is its own separate discussion unless staff say that there IS merit in adding an NPC trainer.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I just disagree, and think that the number of people effected, and what the likely overall outcome would be contributes to the decision on whether or not there is merit to the idea at all.
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

number13

  • Posts: 1066
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2019, 08:22:58 PM »
Right now the curve for time spent vs power gained is more or less linear. There are some combat skills that cap out sooner, like parry and backstab, and there's there's difficulty in finding appropriate challenges to raise up the weapon skills and innate offense/defense scores, so it's not quite linear.

But it's close enough to being a linear one to one relationship that players with high time investment will easily out gain players with low time investment.

I think the solution is front load more gains at low levels of time investment, and then drastically slow advancement past that point. And the closer you get to the cap, the slower your advancement becomes...like Zeno's Paradox, it should be practically impossible to completely cap a weapon skill or the hidden offense/defense skills. But it should be very, very easy to achieve a high level proficiency with these skills at, say, five days played.

https://itotd.com/files/2018/05/Zeno_Dichotomy_Paradox-696x331.png  Pretend the denominator in those fractions is days played, and the end point is Mastery level in weapon skill.

Five days is already an extraordinary investment to make in a game, when you think about it.

.....

A second problem mentioned in this thread is players with high time investment on indie characters easily getting more money and thus soft power than nobles.
The solution there, I think, is that the bank should have a hard cap on the number of coins it is willing to take from a PC. Like, five to ten large. If you need to store more coins, you have to put them somewhere vulnerable (almost certainly inviting burglary), or trust another player to hold them for you in their account (potentially inviting betrayal).
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 08:26:42 PM by number13 »

LindseyBalboa

  • Posts: 92
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2019, 11:43:09 PM »
I don't think there should be an in game cheat to level up skills without putting in time. Not having time to play happens to everyone at different points.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2019, 02:12:06 AM »
I think there's two different concepts here.

1. Not having enough time to play and getting lapped by people who can play 24/7

2. Organizations that should ostensibly be the bees knees when it comes to certain genres of skills not properly being represented.

To point #1, I gotcha. I don't have nearly as much time as I used to. But skills kinda come naturally. The grind sucks, but if you can play a little bit here and there, it's almost better than grinding 24/7. I've had very effective combat PCs simply from sticking around and sparring the right people and fighting the right things. A bit of luck, a bit of schedule, and a bit of grind. I do think the new classes help with this a bit.

To point #2 -- I kinda agree, and I kinda don't. I don't think simply because people are a part of an elite group/clan that they should suddenly become better than everyone else. I'm not sure it should be automated via training NPCs. I also don't think we need to reward members of a clan more than they already are. I could see it being a sort of one off thing for long-played AoD Sergeants/Lieutenants or a Tor Scorpion or something like that as a concept, but I'm not sure if it would make sense as a rule.

I did like the 'chit' system mentioned as sort of a reward for good service. In a game without EXP, it'd be the closest thing to leveling up after a boss fight. But I'm not sure it makes sense to the setting/game foundation.
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Heade

  • Posts: 837
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2019, 01:20:48 PM »
I could see it being a sort of one off thing for long-played AoD Sergeants/Lieutenants or a Tor Scorpion or something like that as a concept, but I'm not sure if it would make sense as a rule.

Agreed, and as I understand it, this sort of thing is already possible for such long-lived PCs via request, as mentioned here: https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Increases
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Greve

  • Posts: 174
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2019, 01:16:42 PM »
Other muds have had this and I thought it was great. It meant that if you wanted to get steady, dependable training, you could join a clan. Armageddon tends toward the opposite: if you want to be able to train when you want, and not merely when matching playtimes allow it, you should go indie. This has demonstrably hurt clan populations throughout the years. If you don't play during peak hours, joining a combat clan is actively detrimental to your character. This is something that has deserved to be addressed for so long that it's almost embarrassing.

There were never any problems with sparring NPCs except possibly for the fact that some players preferred to spar with NPCs since there was no burden to emote, but that should be easily fixed with soft rules. At the end of the day, the benefits far outweighed the potential issues. You could join a military clan and know that you'd receive adequate training that at least matched the IC time served instead of depending wholly on other members' playtimes. It was one of the most valuable features with regards to clanned gameplay and kept those clans well-populated at all times. It meant anyone could partake and get something out of it, and that being a soldier was actually a good way to get training instead of, you know, the worst way. We all know that this is a problem here, given how you can easily spend hours standing in the training hall without anyone coming by if you live in Australia or whatever. I'd say it's due time something is done about this.

Sparring dummies are worthless. You can't gain anything from them unless your skills are so low that you could gain from fighting rats. Any heavy-combat class begins at a level where dummies are already useless. They serve no purpose other than passing the time or training rescue. Sparring NPCs would solve many issues that have plagued the game for its entire existence, such as off-peak players or HG/mul training. It's easy to regulate how much they can be used. Basically make the NPC come out at x o'clock and leave again at y o'clock, and make it official clan policy that you must prioritize or at least include present PCs in sparring routines.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 01:30:25 PM by Greve »

Riev

  • Posts: 5611
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2019, 09:57:21 AM »
I'm not sure I agree with auto-train NPCs, but I will admit that the clans that put out sparring dummies should think about the quality of their dummies, because as mentioned, Heavy Combat classes start the game at a level where the dummies are not useful. they are good for guard/rescue drills if you only have 2 people, but otherwise, you learn nothing. They are RP props.

RP Props are fine. Unless you want to make combat skills slowly degrade when not being used actively, and sparring dummies are the only way to reset the timer. :)
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LindseyBalboa

  • Posts: 92
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2019, 08:50:14 PM »
Not a fan of trainer NPCs. No role play value.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2837
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2019, 10:55:57 PM »
Not a fan of trainer NPCs. No role play value.

They have infinitely more roleplay value than an automated PC that buys obsidian or a training dummy that pops up every few hours once a week.

SmashedTregil

  • Posts: 196
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2019, 02:16:05 AM »
Not a fan of trainer NPCs. No role play value.

Plenty of roleplay value if access to auto trainer NPC services is gained via some form of roleplay and interaction. IE tokens from nobility, alternative currency, etc.
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tarkas

  • Posts: 46
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2019, 10:55:10 AM »
The emperor's elite Sardukar troops were elite, because they lived in the harshest worst world imaginable.

When that world became easy, safe, when they began to train, and spar rather than fight to survive, they became
fat and weak.

The fremen lived a harsh life, fighting every minute for water, food, and the ability to move around without being blinded by
sand or eaten by a worm.

Should the emperor's elite Sardukar be more badass because they are the "elite"  or should the fremen, who lived the dangers
be able to rofl stomp their drunken, whoring, fat asses?

I see where this comes from.  The whole idea behind Eve Online is kind of based off of this idea.  Time, whether playing or not, should
determine skill.  And it works on eve.  Because after 20 seconds you are 5% better than somebody else.  After 20 minutes you are 10% better than most people and 5% better than the 20 second people.  After 3 days you are 5% better than the 20 minute people and 15% better than the didn't bother training.  All the way up to 63 days you are 25% better than somebody who never thought about doing this, or 5% better than the guy that spent 12 days.  That kind of min/max time spent thing would probably be alright.

But, it is a VERY severe amount of effort.

Personally I would prefer they continue with plots, and interactions, and the incredible changes (that are subtle, but awesome)  than implement this.

The other side affect.  If I do not have to log on to become better.  Will I?  If I can start as a fully formed character.  Why wouldn't I?