Author Topic: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def  (Read 1302 times)

MeTekillot

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Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« on: September 29, 2019, 04:05:26 PM »
NPCs that will train your skills, separate from the 'teach' command. Clans should have teachers that will bring you up to a certain point based on your rank. Indies should be able to utilize the teachers, with tiers based on how much they pay based on each session.

My motivation behind this idea is I miss being able to play 14 hrs a day 7 days a week, and now I actually have to dip into my real life obligations and hobbies to keep competitive with people who prioritize Arm more than I do, or simply have more time than I do. I have a feeling that I now represent a significant majority of the playerbase.

I'd still support the higher ends of skill gains (for indies) still be locked behind going out and training them. INDIE PLAYER CHARACTERS UP AGAINST THE WALL

I support clanned persons having the higher end of skill levels (including offense and defense, not just 'skills') having whatever heights available to them, with the levels based on their clanned rank.

IE: A Trooper in the Byn shouldn't get more than master parry and journeyman in most combat skills, along with advanced ride. They should get appreciable but not astounding increases to offense and defense. A Captain in the Oashi Elite (or whatever their ranks are) should flatten you.

Salarri and Kadian crafters should be able to receive training in house-relevant crafting disciplines. Aides could get psionics and stealth training. Etc.

If you want to train beyond the limits of these NPCs, you are still freely able to.

If you throw down with a Captain in the AoD who chose the Fighter class, you should have a really bad time, even if he can only afford a 10 hours versus your 60 hours a real-life week.

This would help even the expectations of high ranks in clans being competent. It would keep the ranks of competence under the high ranks relatively uniform, so that your Trooper who just had a baby IRL stays relatively competent in comparison with your Trooper who has autism and an experimental surgery to let him play Armageddon in his sleep via a brain implant.

It would work like the pay NPCs, in my idea of the implementation. Ask teacher training.

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Furrowing his brow, the fucking shredded, bald-headed teacher says, in badass-accented sirihish:
     "You have not taken the time to meditate on my lessons. Come back in 125 (or whatever number) days."
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MeTekillot

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Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2019, 04:10:38 PM »
This would also give more automated power to the higher ranks in clans, where staff don't have the time to animate the world around them bending to their whims due to the glass ceiling. It would increase interest in clans beyond the food/water/spar benefits and make clanned PCs that much more superior to indie PCs. The rich get richer. The weak should fear the strong.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1526
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2019, 05:12:27 PM »
I'd be up for that, but it needs to be somehow clearly balanced.

Captaincy is irrelevant because it's an NPC role.

There needs to be a way to excel "beyond" the clan level training for indies at the price of extreme risk.

The training done by the auto trainers must be significantly slower then the average pace an indie can progress at. A price for "safe" training is "slow" training.

Lizzie

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Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2019, 05:17:34 PM »
Are sparring dummies no longer a thing? They're not useful for defense, but I thought they were useful for some measure of offense and weapons training?
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Hauwke

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Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2019, 05:20:14 PM »
Honestly, Indies shouldn't even get given the option for this auto training. Most Indy characters that fight already have skills far and above what I would personally consider the point to which the auto training would bring them up to.

Clanned characters, Soldiers, Bynners, they should be the ones that are exceptional at fighting, not some random who likes to fight jozhal and hawks because it gives a few misses.

Sparring dummies can be used to train a very select few skills, but are almost useless for offense.

MeTekillot

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Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2019, 05:25:09 PM »
There needs to be a way to excel "beyond" the clan level training for indies at the price of extreme risk.
There is. They can do it already.
Quote
The training done by the auto trainers must be significantly slower then the average pace an indie can progress at. A price for "safe" training is "slow" training.
It's literally just for people who can't log in for sparring/grinding like everyone else can. There's almost no risk with sparring.
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JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 194
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2019, 07:06:53 PM »
I'm not sure I see the need for this. I mean, it sucks of you don't have the time to play, but, if you aren't playing all that often, why do you need to be at the same level as people that can? Also, aren't you indirectly punishing folks that do play a lot? I mean, I put twenty days of playtime into this character to be a badass, but you only had to put five, cuz you don't play much.
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MeTekillot

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Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2019, 07:46:51 PM »
Also, aren't you indirectly punishing folks that do play a lot?
No.

Quote
Also, aren't you indirectly punishing folks that do play a lot? I mean, I put twenty days of playtime into this character to be a badass, but you only had to put five, cuz you don't play much.
There would still be time limits in the same vein as the paymaster system. For indie characters to utilize it (if they even GET to utilize it(INDIE PCS UP AGAINST THE WALL)), they would need to accrue coins in some manner. Otherwise, it would be one of those benefits of being in a clan and attending regular training in your virtual time.

You still get the benefit of all the material wealth and social connections you can accrue in 15 straight days, which is to say, 360 hours of playing. As well as the skill twinking you can do in this time. This system would be capped on clan rank.
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JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 194
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2019, 09:57:49 PM »
What do you mean when you keep saying INDIE CHARS UP AGAINST THE WALL?

Plus, you didn't answer the first question. Why do you need to be at the same skill level as someone who plays a lot? If you can't play a lot, can't you just explain it by saying you were off doing other stuff and you fell behind in your training? Why not? How does it actually hurt?

I'm not trying to be snarky, Met. I've attempted indie chars before and maybe I just suck at it but it can be really hard. You have to pay taxes, rent, food, water. Don't clanned players get enough benefits as it is?
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Michael Scott, The Warlock

Barsook

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Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2019, 10:03:36 PM »
I'm not trying to be snarky, Met. I've attempted indie chars before and maybe I just suck at it but it can be really hard. You have to pay taxes, rent, food, water. Don't clanned players get enough benefits as it is?

That's what I'm thinking too. It's going to make the indie chars on easy mode.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10458
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2019, 10:29:18 PM »
What do you mean when you keep saying INDIE CHARS UP AGAINST THE WALL?
Facetious denigration of indie characters meant to accentuate my support of clanned characters being superior in nearly all aspects when it comes to in-character power struggle, save for personal freedom in what they (indie characters) can do versus clan characters.

Quote
Plus, you didn't answer the first question. Why do you need to be at the same skill level as someone who plays a lot? If you can't play a lot, can't you just explain it by saying you were off doing other stuff and you fell behind in your training? Why not? How does it actually hurt?


If you are in a clan, you are virtually holding to the schedule. If you're soaking up a clan slot, you should be a useful asset in that clan slot even if you don't always have the time to log in and spar or train or grind with all your other clannies. Low playtime characters shouldn't suffer. You say clanned characters get tons of benefits and don't need more. High playtime characters get many more benefits, significant among them vastly superior coded competence. They could stand that have that advantage dulled a bit.

My idea won't completely even the playing field for people who go out of their way to train their character with their more available playtimes.

I've stated repeatedly that this system would cap the trained characters' skill levels (improvement from the NPC, not total skill level) based on clan rank.

EDIT: It's not a punishment for other players to be able to compete with you even if they don't play the game as much as you.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 10:31:06 PM by MeTekillot »
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Mercy

  • Posts: 115
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2019, 11:50:39 PM »
There are reasons I don't like this idea. However, I think it bears merit. As someone who has had a revolving schedule over the past couple of years. It is possible to have a good amount of playtime, and low interaction with clan mates. So you can end up with deceptively high hours played for where your skill level is. Obviously there are a number of factors that play into this. But I feel like for this system to work, there has to be something in place to ensure it doesn't stack with normal skill increases. Otherwise what stops high-playtime PCs from getting to the clan-rank cap faster by supplementing play with coded lessons.

MeTekillot

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Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2019, 12:11:38 AM »
sounds fine
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Heade

  • Posts: 837
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2019, 01:43:23 AM »
I'm not a big fan of the idea.

First, I don't see any reason why people who dedicate high amounts of time to the game shouldn't be able to skill up more than those who don't. Second, I don't like that the idea is being floated primarily for clanned PCs, to further widen the gap that already exists between clanned and unclanned. I don't think we need more reasons to be in a clan. There are plenty already. Indies should be represented in the game, too.
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Dar

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Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2019, 03:06:25 AM »
I personally like the idea.

As for reasoning for this. I'll be honest, my gameplay time is extremely limited. Limited to a point where there are a lot of roles that I would like to play, but I'm not going to. Sometimes it's because the responsibility is high and I do not want it with my low playtimes. But sometimes, it's because a lot of training is required to be portrayed accurately and ... I simply do not have time for it. I can imagine myself spamming spells. Where I'm in the temple, or alone, not really interacting and at work IRL. But active participation? I would just log off. 


As playerbase grows older and gains more irl responsibilities, you are faced with situations when a player will chose to simply not play, then to play in such an abhorrent schedule that they're fated to a non-skilled character. Or, they sacrifice actual gameplay and roleplay to go somewhere to train for what little available time they've got.

Now. That shouldnt be 'encouraged'. But mechanisms that could basically give a player a reason to 'login' instead of ... never logging on, is probably a good idea for the overral game. These mechanisms should never trump the hard working players who have the time to sink. They deserve the higher stats. But mayhaps closing the gap somewhat is a good idea.

What form these mechanisms should take, I do not know. Perhaps these auto trainers, or whatever else. But in my opinion, mechanisms like these would help the game a lot.

Dar

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Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2019, 03:23:47 AM »
Perhaps create those auto trainers and have them accept "unique" currency. Kind of like the AoD/Legionnaire's chits. Then allow the nobility and high ranking officers grant those chits as rewards. Also allow house members to receive one such chit along with the usual payment.

The people with money can buy these chits off people. Or be rewarded by nobility and GMH.



Needless to say, the lessons from these trainers need to be appropriately expensive. Let's say 9 chits for 1 point of skill from journeyman to advanced.

Though I'd leave the actual economic balance up to the staff.

In-house trainers might be cheaper then out of house ones. Those are minor details.

Heade

  • Posts: 837
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2019, 01:06:10 PM »
Needless to say, the lessons from these trainers need to be appropriately expensive. Let's say 9 chits for 1 point of skill from journeyman to advanced.

Journeyman to advanced isn't 1 point of skill. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

In either case, if this were implemented, I'd like to see an NPC that indies could buy said chits from, and a clear communication to EVERYONE outside of the confines of the game letting them know how it worked and where the NPCs might be found.

I do understand the desire to skip the grind. Honestly, I vastly prefer RP to grinding, and would enjoy if there were some way to RP more, grind less, yet still be appropriately skilled to represent what my PC is doing when I'm not online. But that shouldn't be exclusive to clanned PCs.

Also, it should be pointed out that if this is implemented and is easier than grinding, almost everyone will use it, and so almost everyone will quickly end up at whatever the trainer cap is. This will make the random stats rolled at character generation even more important than they are now.
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Mercy

  • Posts: 115
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2019, 02:18:22 PM »
Needless to say, the lessons from these trainers need to be appropriately expensive. Let's say 9 chits for 1 point of skill from journeyman to advanced.

Journeyman to advanced isn't 1 point of skill. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.


I think they mean one point of 'progress' from journeyman towards advanced. Not to bump you directly from journeyman to advanced.

If I understand the goal of this, it's to make it easier for clanned PCs with clearly defined caps based on rank, while also having a more difficult (read: costs coin) option for indies so they have similar but not exactly equivalent access. Since there are no 'ranks' for indies, maybe some sort of token could be bought from an npc (to avoid PC favoritism with the system, and also prevent off-peakers from getting gated) to donate a certain level of patronage that allows further trainer caps to be reached. Although if you're a low playtime indie I don't know how much this system really helps. I don't know how they fare with coin typically.

Brokkr

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Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2019, 02:51:35 PM »
While I understand the proposed solution, I am more murky on what the symptom and ultimately cause that drives the solution.

I'd like to, because nuance is important. 

Low playtime folks not making it to some "decent" level of skills?  We tried to address this with the class revamp, what is lacking there?
Low playtime folks wanting a way to move beyond combat "plateau" skill levels?  How is this different from non-low playtime folks wanting to do the same?
Sponsored leaders coming in with low skill levels?  Sponsored leaders are already typically set to skills levels we deem sufficient.
Leaders coming up through the ranks with low skill levels? I mean, maybe they are really good at schmoozing?

Can you narrow it to what the root cause/symptom seems to be?  Can't address whether a solution is the right one without knowing the drivers.

MeTekillot

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Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2019, 03:15:02 PM »
It's in the first post, Brokkr.
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Riev

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Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2019, 03:36:07 PM »
I felt, in short:

If you join the Byn, and make it to Trooper, there's a certain "level" of training expected. Some sort of bare minimum.
This bare minimum is probably not the same minimum that an AoD Private would have.
Which is probably not what an Oashi Elite would have.

So for those people who are in clans that provide some sort of specialized training (mostly combat, but I'd like to see it expand to other things), there can be a feeling of making it to Byn Trooper, even if most of your playtime didn't involve other PCs.
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kahuna

  • Posts: 203
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2019, 03:56:50 PM »
I don't see any issue with the way things currently are. If you don't have a ton of time to play too bad. You want higher skills? Use the skill bumps (which I personally feel needs a revamp but regardless). Sponsored roles begin play with much higher skill levels.

The grind is a part of the game, without it you will cheapen the hard work a lot of players put into their characters. Also this would be yet another huge addition to clans that really isn't needed. Clans are already power houses, they usually get a lot of PCs to play with, plenty of perks, plenty of training. If this ever did go in the game it shouldn't be restricted to clans, there should be public 'trainers' for all PCs to use.

Heade

  • Posts: 837
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2019, 04:00:54 PM »
If this ever did go in the game it shouldn't be restricted to clans, there should be public 'trainers' for all PCs to use.

I agree with this part, at least. Clans already have lots more opportunities to train without a significant risk of dying. That isn't true for indies, who have a hard time finding both safe places to train and people to train with.
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Brokkr

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Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2019, 05:04:19 PM »
It's in the first post, Brokkr.

I see the proposed solution.  I see your motivation.  I see how things "should" be.  I see how RL is impacting your play.

I don't see what I requested, which would require uplevel from there to a problem statement of the cause is.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10458
Re: Autotrain NPCs for skills and off/def
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2019, 05:10:17 PM »
My motivation behind this idea is I miss being able to play 14 hrs a day 7 days a week, and now I actually have to dip into my real life obligations and hobbies to keep competitive with people who prioritize Arm more than I do, or simply have more time than I do.

I want people who don't have the time to play as much to be able to codedly compete with people who have all the time in the world to play. People with higher playtimes still maintain an advantage in every other avenue of play.
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