Author Topic: The Rinth Needs Teeth  (Read 3830 times)

Riev

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Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2019, 12:17:11 PM »
I think, having MAYBE 2-3 more Guild-y NPCs playing the role of Enforcer would be nice.

As it stands, they either tend to group up, or are crazed and attack anyone anyways. It seems pretty rare you're walking around, as a Guild Member flashing Colors, and get attacked by a crazed spice addict, and someone actually comes to help out.
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Bebop

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Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2019, 03:06:25 PM »
I played a law enforcement PC and we caught up to this guy and even had a half giant pc looming in the only door out of this place and before the poor Templar could get his say off the guy fled ran out the gates of the city and proceeded to sneak back in for weeks to kill merchant PCs. So this is one reason many PCs won't give a chance, along with the fact you can pretty much be a ghost on certain classes even if people have equivalent scan.

Was this before threaten, or was threaten not used for some reason?  It serves as a pretty good illustration of a situation threaten was created to deal with, so it would be useful to know the reasons it isn't being used in such situations.

As far as the topic on hand...

Not going to say there isn't some sort of glass ceiling for organizations in the Rinth, there is.  Play seems a bit more freeform and on the players to make it work and find their fun and roles.  But it seems to me when it comes into play, and the virtual organizations come into play, frequency is much less than the rest of Allanak.  And when it does, it has a different flavor, and at least in the last couple of years, has been used more to support player initiatives.

So, yeah, it is a bit more on the player-led side of things than the rest of Nak.  Do folks want more structure here?  Or is it niche for those who want less?

Hi Brokkr.

I don't think it's about the glass ceiling or the clan being more structured by standards put in place OOCly.  I think it's about the code being more reflective of the game world specifically in the Rinth and beyond.  For instance, if I sneak into an Oashi Estate there is ONE entrance.  I am going to face some serious challenges if I sneak onto their turf.  I may have to wish up to be able to even get out.  And there are going to be Oashi NPCs and VNPCs littered throughout the Estate that will attack me if I attack an Oashi noble.  If I sneak into the Oashi Estate I better be -damn- sure I can kill them on their own turf.  Because once I wish up and tell staff, "I'm about to try to PK Lady Fancy Pants."  I better hope to Gaj I do it quietly, and am able to RP getting TF outta there because I know the whole damn Estate might be able to come alive and hunt me down if I fuck up.

If fail at killing someone privately or discreetly and I am identified killing an important Oashi pc I would wager there are going to be consequences from their clan to mine.  Or just to me and my ass.  If I commit crimes in the light of day south side I BETTER be able to sneak outta there.  That's realistic.  These are examples of the code being arranged to react (somewhat) realistically.  This makes it so that there are challenges to just killing a PC anywhere anytime.  You can do it.  But depending on how, when and where - you will face certain consequences. 

There needs to be some such representation for the Guild.  It's like in ALL of the movies when the protagonist is trying to infiltrate the criminal base.  They should have to sneak past armed guards.  Not trip the alarm.  Etc.  The northwest side -is- Guild territory.  There needs to be some kind of safe house and a presence of Guild NPCs around it too.  It shouldn't be that easy to just walk up, kill a Guild boss and walk out.  The game world needs to reflect some safeties.  Otherwise, if you know someone is bound to work out of 1 or 2 locations where no protections are really in place it's really easy to just post up, insta-kill and pop out in a place that's "lawless."  So I think the OP is saying the Guild needs more support indicative of their presence as a criminal power house. 

Shalooonsh was very keen on going off about the definition of lawless but I would argue if we're going down to definitions let's discuss the definition of "organized crime." 

Quote
Organized crime is a category of transnational, national, or local groupings of highly centralized enterprises run by criminals who intend to engage in illegal activity, most commonly for profit. Some criminal organizations, such as terrorist groups, are politically motivated. Sometimes criminal organizations force people to do business with them, such as when a gang extorts money from shopkeepers for "protection".[1] Gangs may become disciplined enough to be considered organized. A criminal organization or gang can also be referred to as a mafia, mob,[2][3] ring,[4] or syndicate;[5] the network, subculture and community of criminals may be referred to as the underworld. European sociologists (e.g. Diego Gambetta) define the mafia as a type of organized crime group that specializes in the supply of extra-legal protection and quasi law enforcement.


The way I see it is this.  How can you tell where the meta might need work?  Look at where there is a gap between the way the game was intended to work, how the documentation says things should work, what would be fundamentally realistic and then look at how are things ACTUALLY going in game.  To my mind, these gaps where intent and realism aren't matching with how the game is being played are where the meta should be looked at.  In this case, we're discussing the Guild's reach as a clan and the services/wares it provides.

Ultimately, I enjoy player clans that have a more open feel.  I am all for putting PCs in impactful leadership roles, even senior leadership roles.  What I'm trying to establish is that if the Guild is a clan, it should feel like a clan and infiltrating it should feel like infiltrating any other IG estate.  Further, there should be some recourse if Guilders are attacked on their own territory.  Perhaps hidden NPCs that do not attack unless coming to the aid of a mid to high level Guilder.  Shalooonsh also mentioned then perhaps there should be other NPC enforcers in other lands.  Although I'm not entirely adverse to this, I would point out this is already greatly the case in many camps.  In the desert you will interact with many, many aggro NPCs.  Not to mention, we are talking about an inner city area.  And while I don't think it's as simple as a crim-code, I do think that it is a good idea and would act as a deterrent to PCs constantly attacking and even killing Westsiders on their own territory.  Should they be able to try?  Sure.  Should they be able to kill Guilders on the East or Southside of town with out these negatives, and with the southside crim-code in fact working for them?  Sure.  But Guilders on Guilder territory is a different matter.


I'd also like to see some kind of throwing knife course and combat infrastructure.  Perks like that.  I don't want everyone to feel like their first stop HAS to be the Byn.  It saddens me when someone's like I want to play a gritty rinther, rawr!  Sooooo, I'm going southside to the Byn to become some kind of badass and then come terrorize the alleys.  How much better would it be if people could seek out the Guild to train them up to be a badass baddie?  Then they can start playing their gritty rinther straight away.  This would also cut down on the constant need to make up reasons to battle it out with NPCs to level.

On to the matter of poisons which we briefly discussed here and then we had this discussion in Discord after the thread was closed.  Shabago disclosed that there were currently 10 perraine glands IG which does not also account for the weapons poisoned with this poison.  I'd be willing to wager there are at least 10 or more perraine poisoned weapons IG to boot.  On any given week night we have about 30 - 40 players on.  That means that at any given time there's enough harvested and ready perraine IG to kill off a fourth to half the player base.  I would not qualify that as rare much less incredibly rare.

Peraine:
   One of the more rare poisons, it causes the muscles of the body to
contract and lock tightly, essentially paralyzing the victim.
Fortunately, this poison is not widely used, as its sources are not
widely known.



This is where I have another problem with the game meta at present.  Either the documentation needs to state perraine has become more prolific or we need to find a way to make it not prolific.  It's clear to me when I read the documentation that perraine was meant to be not only a rarity but an extreme rarity.  I also don't think it was staff's intent for the market to ever become so saturated.  In my mind if there are 40 people on regularly there should be maybe one or two glands around.  Five MAX if someone is hoarding them.  To have 10 - 20 perraine items which offers an all but guaranteed skill to people of almost any skill level in the right situation - that's problematic.

This creates a dynamic IG where insta-kill ability is too wide spread.  The code/combat focused PCs intent on using this can effectively begin to police someone for every petty infringement.  Instead of oh shit I can't believe he had that poison!  He must have really, really had it coming.

Maybe I'm wrong in my assumption, but it seems to me the intent of the game was to make insta-killing a hard thing to achieve.  Backstab was never a skill that was readily available to most character guilds.  And there were strict rules on its use when trying to level this skill.  No backstabbing animals.  No fleeing and backstabbing again if avoidable.  I came up in this game with the mindset that insta-kill should be rare and achievable only through a set of obstacles.  I also came up in this game believing if dignitaries, leaders and so forth of any clan were killed in a way that was not accomplished discreetly consequences would arise.

At this point, with some digging and a couple of large a PC that has only been around a little while can easily obtain a poison that is supposed to be OP and ungodly rare.  But as we can see, it's not rare.  There is no cure.  There is no time to take a cure.  We discussed a few solutions to this.  We discussed this poison taking some time to kick in like a neuropoison that might first slow it's victim.  We talked about poison deteriorating like spice.  The deterioration of poison makes far more sense than spice deteriorating since poison is always derived from organic matter.  We talked about the potential to fail and poison yourself if you use a blade with poison and you don't have the poison skill at all or a very high poison skill.  We talked about the risk to poison yourself when harvesting poison.    We talked about poison hubs moving and migrating like the way deposits arrive randomly.  Clearly poison needs to be less prolific, there needs to be more risk to harvesting it, using it and certain poisons should not be so OP. Honestly, I would be happy if perraine was removed from the game entirely.  It's too easy to get and too easy to use on someone who won't even be able to save against it.  Riev suggested making the OP poisons need three different types of skills to process it into something useful.  Like needing a poisoner, brewing and someone with master cooking something.  Basically anything to make this poison less easy to obtain and use.  I would say the same for herma.

As it stands right now the use of poisons has become so wide spread.  Many guilds can use them straight out the gate.  Meanwhile, cures have become more rare and difficult to create.  The game is imbalanced in this regard to my eyes.  And as pointed out, poisons are sourced more often than not by hunters, when those in the cities have no way to source anything on their own.

In my eyes I just think, what makes sense in the game?  Noble tavern is safe and privileged.  Dingy tavern not.  Sneaky types do kills in the cities with easy, Guild is a crime organization with a big, scary backing running northwest side.  Perraine (according to docs) rare, super rare.  If this isn't being reflected in the game how do we fix it?

TLDR:

-Let the Guild engage in quasi-law enforcement and have hidden Guild NPCs throughout the rinth, more heavily armed in Guild dense areas ready to save and attack the opponents of mid to high level guilders

-I don't hate the northwest side crim-code idea

-Make areas in the game that should be hard to infiltrate or kill leaders reflective of that in the Guild and beyond

-If poisons are supposed to be incredibly rare, please look at the idea there might be in issue if there is enough of an insta-kill poison in the game to kill off a huge chunk of the pb

-Consider making the difficulty of sourcing poisons higher and have it involve far more risk because as it stands IG this insta-kill magick pill is acting as a nuke to police every little social infraction - it is killing depth of story, and making RP heavy players beholden to Code/PK heavy players

-Please help us define rare, do you believe perraine is actually are at present? I do not.  Do you think Guilders should be able to source more poisons some how, or be narrowed in on that market?

-Give Guild PCs a way to train their skills more effectively
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 04:44:13 PM by Bebop »

Veselka

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Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2019, 03:33:44 PM »
Quote
Maybe I'm wrong in my assumption, but it seems to me the intent of the game was to make insta-killing a hard thing to achieve.  Backstab was never a skill that was readily available to most character guilds.  And there were strict rules on its use when trying to level this skill.  No backstabbing animals.  No fleeing and backstabbing again if avoidable.  I came up in this game with the mindset that insta-kill should be rare and achievable only through a set of obstacles.  I also came up in this game believing if dignitaries, leaders and so forth of any clan were killed in a way that was not accomplished discreetly consequences would arise.

I honestly don't know where that assumption comes from. I always assumed the game was brutal and life was cheap, and death could be around the corner. There's a few misconceptions here about 'Insta Kill'.

-Backstab and Sap aren't infallible even at master levels, they do fail, and rarely OHK unless you are real strong, or the person is already damaged or has stun loss.
-Peraine is far from infallible, especially now-a-days. There's a chance of it unlocking based on endurance and if they are hit in combat. I've peraine'd people only to see them jump up and run off before my kill timer expires.
-Heramide is far from infallible, especially now-a-days. Cures are more widespread and people know how to make them, and when to take them.
-Cures are hella not rare. Almost every dick, tom, and harry has a set of cures these days. It's just a matter of them being less predictable and more confusing, depending on who made them. It just takes one or two "Herbalist PCs" to make enough cures for all of Allanak.

--

An 'Insta Kill' isn't as common as I think you think it is...More common is just, well, death. Multiple PC's ganging up on another PC. That PC being in a locked room, and unable to escape. A PC being ambushed or not paying attention, so they don't have a chance to type 'flee' through the adrenaline.

PKing people is actually pretty difficult unless you are both skilled and know what you are doing, and also prepare for it, or the victim has little to no chance to escape. It also isn't a guarantee, no matter how skilled your PC is. More often than not, two PCs meeting in the Wasteland for a showdown, someone will be able to flee and survive. In the Labyrinth, there are so many rooftop/escape routes that it is usually the case as well, unless you have multiple PCs and/or the drop on someone.

I'm not sure what the alternative to 'Insta Kill' as you put it is -- Never kill? Sometimes maim? People will die in a Permadeath game, even very skilled and talented PCs. I've had many of my PCs that I adored get one shotted by an arrow when they weren't expecting it, backstabbed when they weren't expecting it, or ganged up on in an apartment. Sure, it sucks in the moment, but I honestly fume for a bit and then make a new PC and rinse and repeat. I'm so glad this MUD isn't a 'PK By Permission' MUD like some other RP-Enforced MUDs are -- I can't imagine playing in that world.

--

As to the Guild -- There are enforcer NPCs that will assist clanned Guild members. They just aren't always around when you need them, but sometimes they are.

I've seen the Guild very efficiently train people with training weapons / on a schedule like the Byn, and retain people from going Southside by actively providing the service.

Ultimately it's a very PC based clan. Depending on who is running it and who is in it, it changes the dynamic entirely. I'd hate to see the Guild Documentationed to death, or have enforced crime code. Part of the fun of the Guild is getting even with people who cross you and don't take you seriously.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Riev

  • Posts: 5611
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2019, 03:51:59 PM »
I'm still unconvinced either way. I've seen the Guild have teeth, but it was dependent on a highly-skilled PC with high playtimes.
I've felt the Guild was powerless, because I rolled a guild_warrior who was never given keys to the kingdom, as it were, so there were no spots to do "training" of any kind.
I've seen people have no idea what kind of things the Guild can offer and, when TOLD what could be offered, don't want it. Spice is an RP prop and is a rarity, assassinations are often given to indies and unaffiliated people because they're cheaper and come with "less strings attached".

I've even have staff say "Why not take a contract on someone's life for 2000 coins, then offer the target 4000 to turn it around!"
Real professional.
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Bast

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Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2019, 03:58:51 PM »
I think the arboretum should be in the nobles quarter. Also there should be shops in there and those shops should be the only shops that sell silk. Also if you come into that part of town without silks on and/or house colors NPC mobs should auto spot you and haul you to right to the Arena..and there should no hide no sneak rooms all over the place.

Seriously this is how this entire conversation sounds to me. The Rinth is basically a fortress for crooks. If anything it should get nerfed. Stabby sneaks in this game are still way O.P. You really only have to worry about your own murdering you in there as the guard and Templar will rarely do a thing if involves walking into that part of town.
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Tiktak

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Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2019, 04:04:34 PM »
I'm over here support-applauding both Bast and Riev.

lairos

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Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2019, 04:09:29 PM »
A few things from this thread that have stood out to me that I feel need to throw some different things out to...

Not a single sponsored role is 100% protected. Not a guild "boss", not a Merchant Family, not even a Noble or Templar. Despite the amount of favors you have with your higher ups? If you piss off the wrong people, do something wrong or push the others in power the wrong way? Expect to be thrown to the wolves. Expect bribes to be passed to your Seniors, in whatever scenario, to let shit happen or allow it to go through. Expect certain passes to be allowed for other things since the alternative could be worse for the organizations or Houses.

It doesn't matter if you are playing against the grain or appear to be beloved. Expect as some point that you are going to be murdered, betrayed or otherwise. These are some of the highlights of the game.

Never expect to be safe -anywhere-. I've seen Nobles and Merchant family members killed in their Estates. I've seen people get killed in near every single tavern. I've seen people killed in the middle of massive large events where they are the one announcing. You are NEVER safe! Is a Noble or Templar safer than your standard commoner? Absolutely, but it doesn't mean they too can't meet their end.

I've seen poison of various types widely used and it is never a 100% thing. It absolutely can give a massive edge, but it is never a guaranteed kill.

In the direction between Allanak itself vs the Rinth? It was already mentioned there are ways a criminal can maneuver around soldiers to do things and the same thing applies in the Labyrinth, but it nowhere near can touch the same numbers as Allanak as a whole. The Guild has enforcers around and will assist their own if seen, much like soldiers. There are also muggers and other things present. The difference is you can't really compare the mafia to the AOD. At the end of the day one allows another to exist for reasons we'll not dive into.
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Bebop

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Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2019, 04:23:19 PM »
Stuff.

I did not say killing people should be rare.  I said being able to kill people in five seconds flat for any infraction without any virtual IG consequence should be pretty rare and hard to achieve so far as my knowledge as to the intent of coded skill use.  A game should have checks and balances.  So again, I'd love to hear from the staff as whether insta-killing was ever supposed to be wide spread. IRL I can not walk into Amazon and stab Jeff Bezos or any of his employees for that matter where others can see and hear without some kind of consequence.  I'm asking for a smidge of realism be applied to the Guild instead of just saying, "Meh, it's lawless."  It's like no, it isn't.  Either the clan is its own virtual living breathing thing that you should not want to piss off or... it's a shallow reflection of whatever PC calls themselves boss at the time.

Life is cheap.  And people should constantly be trying to undermine and potentially PK one another.  That doesn't mean that 10 glands of perraine already harvested, the ability to harvest more and numerous blades already tainted with the stuff in a game that has 40 people on regularly is rare.  The documentation says these poisons are extremely rare.  I'd really not rather focus on hearsay and you deciding that your experience in the game should equal my experience in the game.  I don't need the game, skills or The Guild explained to me.  Mathematically, that is absolutely not rare.

Yes, all things are possible with boot strap pulling, elbow grease, stars aligning etc.  I am talking about creating a realistic infrastructure here that properly reflect the game world.

You don't know what my alternative to insta-kill is?  I'll tell you.  This is a coded game.  There should not be skills that most people have zero percent chance escaping that can be easily attainable in a few weeks of play.  PKing the majority of time should require RP, triangulation, deception, stealth, or despotic levels of power to achieve --- WITHOUT consequences.  If you kill a leader publicly that should bear RP repercussions in a RP game, just as it would IRL.  Or you can go hacking down someone in broad daylight at the Gaj and walk out and be detained.  I want RP to be fostered and I think insta-killing someone should take overcoming many obstacles, training and so forth.  I think PK should be common, BUT being able to kill PCs in about five seconds flat without despotic level of power and intense, long hours of training?  ---  far less so.

I am talking about a game meta with risk and reward factors.  I am also talking about taking the virtual world and documentation into account to make the meta more realistic.  I thought I made that pretty clear with my above post.  You can't "have the fun of getting even" Veleka because most people are going to insta-kill the fuck out of you and the game has made that easier than ever.  There is no tit for tat.  It's just this OP item being used as a nuke IG.  That's where I have the problem.

What do I want to see?  Not less murder, corruption or betrayal.  I want RP to be the standard, backed by code.  I want stories to be able to breath and have depth.  I want the game world to react in ways that are realistic and immersion fostering.  And I don't want to wish up to need to get those results.  Some people play this game to get a rise out of coded hunting and PK kills.  I don't.  It's fine that they do and I don't.  But the game needs to lend itself to RP and characters that want to RP and create story lines, otherwise they will constantly be policed by coded players who's primary go from the start of every character is to achieve insta-kill abilities as fast as possible.  If that's their gig bully for them.  But the game shouldn't make that easy for them to accomplish.  These same characters are not always great at enforcing the lore and RP so you have a game that becomes tilted towards code use instead of the story.  That is where I get frustrated.

Is there a place for assassins in game who have walked the hard path and overcome challenges to become a badass and be sent in to do their work like a subtle and discreet professional?  Yes.  But what does it mean if a snooty aide turned their nose up at you one time and the instant reaction is that they are soon perrained down?  What does it mean if any social infraction is met with insta-death?  What does it mean if there's enough poison IG that could potentially be used to make someone prone in one hit to kill half the PB that's supposedly "rare."  What does it mean when this level of insta-kill is increasingly common.  What does it mean when the dingiest tavern in the land is five times safer to sit at than the ritziest tavern?  What does it mean when someone can walk into someone else's camp and dispatch someone in their own territory without consequence?  I want the code to reflect the game world and the documentation and the lore.  That is what I want.

I've already stated I want the Guild to be PC run, and have advocated for the return of PC senior leadership.  My post made it pretty clear as to what I'm for and what I'm not for.  Not for the Guild to be policed.  Not for PK to go away.  But for there to be room in the game for players who want to shake things up a little, and for insta-kill (which is extremely powerful) to be challenging to obtain and rare to execute.  I don't think that's unreasonable.  I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that if the docs say a poison is extremely rare it be EXTREMELY rare.  I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the code to reflect the privilege and safety of nobility in certain watering holes on a fundamental level.

I will remove myself from this thread after posting the following from the documentation itself ---

Quote
Conceptually, the Guild is a medieval mafia in most applications of its affairs and business. The clan itself has been around for as many years as one can remember, always hiding from the Templarate's keen eye. Even though not always seen blatantly, the Guild demands a fear from the town's merchants, commoners, and other organizations. No one seems to know much about the intricate affairs of this highly secretive group, but there is no doubt that they have eyes and ears almost everywhere in town hiding in the darkest corners and even among many other organizations. The Guild is rumored to work out of the Westside of the infamous network of abandoned alleys and streets in northern Allanak known as the Labyrinth; however, their reach seem to have no limits when it concerns their sinister business.

The Guild has ran fine thus far to some degree.  However, I do think it at times has been the source of problems or had problems on maintaining activity.  I think there are a few things IG that don't properly reflect the world socially in Allanak.  I absolutely condone PK just as I condone RP.  What I'm saying here is that I'm looking at the documentation for poisons and the Guild and other organizations and I consistently do not see them being reflected in the game socially or codedly.  To me, this weakens my immersion and I struggle to create any depth of story with the lore because coded pursuits seem to consistently trump this.  I feel like I'm asking some pretty valid questions that are, and have been, way over simplified since I've returned and started asking them.  My investment in this topic is not new.

I also do not disagree with Bast, because as I say, the Guild itself has often times been the source of some of these very issues. It and sneaky characters will continue to be.  There is a lot of room for there to be problems created by users of certain sneaky skills. Although I would like to see a place where nobles and commoners can congregate.  I think that would be more achievable if there were perks for commoners and nobles alike for going to such an establishment.  Again, how can we codedly create those and build a more realistic world that enforces good RP decisions?  That's is the question I'm asking.

I think the target is going to continue to move and all we can do is try to make the game code more reflective of its environment, enforce social mores, and make insta-killing a more realistic challenge.  I want the climb to being able to gank in five seconds with zero repercussions to be harder for all guilds. Sneaky, hunter, whoever it is.  But I also wouldn't mind the Guild having a training area where they can practice a skill like throw.  I am not adverse to PK.  I am adverse to overly easy almost instant pk that diminishes RP and IG immersion.  Like making it so that people can't walk down the streets safely?  One hundred percent for.  Take ALL of the soldiers off the streets at night as far as I care.  Making it so that people don't congregate in the taverns and RP and get interaction because they're scared of instakill?  Don't like.  Because it hurts RP.

My biggest point is that good code can foster RP.  Why don't people break into and kill people in Kadius and Oash every day?  Because the compound represents an actual coded challenge.  Why do people not just kill people in broad daylight right by a soldier?  Because the code is effectively representing a realistic consequence if you make a dumb choice.  I want to know how we can go deeper with that.  How can the code foster RP and storylines.  That's what we should be shooting for IMHO.  I am just as much an advocate for making certain places more risky as I am for making others that foster role play and make sense less risky.

I truly believe there can be a good balance between PK and RP but I don't think the game is in a good spot for that at the moment, and I've made it pretty clear I've had concerns about that since returning.

***Modified the portions where alluding to IC events, relative or not, seemed a bit much.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 07:23:49 PM by Shabago »

kahuna

  • Posts: 202
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2019, 04:23:46 PM »
I wanna address these points.

Quote
-Let the Guild engage in quasi-law enforcement and have hidden Guild NPCs throughout the rinth, more heavily armed in Guild dense areas ready to save and attack the opponents of mid to high level guilders
I mean this seems kind of a strange request to make. Should we do the same for other clans? How do you decide who gets what?


Quote
-I don't hate the northwest side crim-code idea
Implementing a crim-code in the Labyrinth would ruin one of the only things that makes it what it is. It would probably drive what few players do play there even further away.

Quote
-Make areas in the game that should be hard to infiltrate or kill leaders reflective of that in the Guild and beyond
Who determines what is hard to infiltration? Obviously a 20 foot wall with glass shards on the top is going to be harder to infiltrate than the labyrinth which is just crumbling buildings and snaking streets? Comparing the two is absurd.
Quote
-If poisons are supposed to be incredibly rare, please look at the idea there might be in issue if there is enough of an insta-kill poison in the game to kill off a huge chunk of the pb
I've never encountered poison to this degree, to me it is quite rare in game. If we're basing rarity off our own personal experiences mine thus far has been that these poisons are rare. So who is right when the evidence proposed is anecdotal.
Quote
-Consider making the difficulty of sourcing poisons higher and have it involve far more risk because as it stands IG this insta-kill magick pill is acting as a nuke to police every little social infraction - it is killing depth of story, and making RP heavy players beholden to Code/PK heavy players
We're all beholden to the code. That's why this is a MUD and not a MUSH.
Quote
-Please help us define rare, do you believe perraine is actually are at present? I do not.  Do you think Guilders should be able to source more poisons some how, or be narrowed in on that market?
It is rare thus far from my experience. I believe staff can actually look and see exactly how much is in game and speak whether it is 'rare' or not?
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-Give Guild PCs a way to train their skills more effectively
Why? What makes this clan any different or special compared to other clans or for instance d-elf tribes? I think we need an even playing field when it comes to this. I don't even know how you would go about making it 'easier' to train guild pcs?

Bebop

  • Posts: 4058
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2019, 04:33:28 PM »
I wanna address these points.

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-Let the Guild engage in quasi-law enforcement and have hidden Guild NPCs throughout the rinth, more heavily armed in Guild dense areas ready to save and attack the opponents of mid to high level guilders
I mean this seems kind of a strange request to make. Should we do the same for other clans? How do you decide who gets what?

We already have this for other clans ergo the crim-code southside, or not being to attack clanned soldier PCs without getting wanted.  As far as who decides who gets this I guess that would be the imms.

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-I don't hate the northwest side crim-code idea
Implementing a crim-code in the Labyrinth would ruin one of the only things that makes it what it is. It would probably drive what few players do play there even further away.

Because people can't kill the members of a feared criminal organization on their own territory easily?
 
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-Make areas in the game that should be hard to infiltrate or kill leaders reflective of that in the Guild and beyond
Who determines what is hard to infiltration? Obviously a 20 foot wall with glass shards on the top is going to be harder to infiltrate than the labyrinth which is just crumbling buildings and snaking streets? Comparing the two is absurd.
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Um, I would say your typical GMH, noble and Tzai Byn compounds = all pretty hard to infiltrate without risk.

-If poisons are supposed to be incredibly rare, please look at the idea there might be in issue if there is enough of an insta-kill poison in the game to kill off a huge chunk of the pb
I've never encountered poison to this degree, to me it is quite rare in game. If we're basing rarity off our own personal experiences mine thus far has been that these poisons are rare. So who is right when the evidence proposed is anecdotal.
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-Consider making the difficulty of sourcing poisons higher and have it involve far more risk because as it stands IG this insta-kill magick pill is acting as a nuke to police every little social infraction - it is killing depth of story, and making RP heavy players beholden to Code/PK heavy players
We're all beholden to the code. That's why this is a MUD and not a MUSH.
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-Please help us define rare, do you believe perraine is actually are at present? I do not.  Do you think Guilders should be able to source more poisons some how, or be narrowed in on that market?
It is rare thus far from my experience. I believe staff can actually look and see exactly how much is in game and speak whether it is 'rare' or not?
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If you actually read my post you would see that I posted that Shabago said there were ten glands already harvested IG plus poisons already in game.  Even with ten glands and a player base of about 40 per night that's already enough to kill a fourth of the PB which is not rare.

-Give Guild PCs a way to train their skills more effectively
Why? What makes this clan any different or special compared to other clans or for instance d-elf tribes? I think we need an even playing field when it comes to this. I don't even know how you would go about making it 'easier' to train guild pcs?

Other clans have training areas, and the Guild does so I'd ask you the same question.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1111
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #60 on: September 19, 2019, 04:38:21 PM »
I'm confused. Why does it matter if someone can kill you in 5 seconds, or in 1 minute, or 5 minutes? The ultimate result is that PC being dead, regardless of how long it took.

The only difference I can see is 'Ability for Victim PC to survive and get away' as opposed to 'Victim having little to no chance of escaping death'.

PK at the end of the day ends up with one (or more) dead PCs, regardless of how long it took to get them there, or the means of their death.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

kahuna

  • Posts: 202
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #61 on: September 19, 2019, 04:41:26 PM »
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Other clans have training areas, and the Guild does so I'd ask you the same question.
Ah. Well I was just reading the annotated version sorry. Yeah I think the guild should have a training area (if they don't) that seems a bit strange. Even if it's just a bunch of old filthy mattresses on a rooftop somewhere with a lockable door guard.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1111
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #62 on: September 19, 2019, 04:43:30 PM »
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Other clans have training areas, and the Guild does so I'd ask you the same question.
Ah. Well I was just reading the annotated version sorry. Yeah I think the guild should have a training area (if they don't) that seems a bit strange. Even if it's just a bunch of old filthy mattresses on a rooftop somewhere with a lockable door guard.

It's literally above the Folley.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Bebop

  • Posts: 4058
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #63 on: September 19, 2019, 04:46:03 PM »
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Other clans have training areas, and the Guild does so I'd ask you the same question.
Ah. Well I was just reading the annotated version sorry. Yeah I think the guild should have a training area (if they don't) that seems a bit strange. Even if it's just a bunch of old filthy mattresses on a rooftop somewhere with a lockable door guard.

It's literally above the Folley.

First of all that's IC info and second that's incorrect.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1111
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #64 on: September 19, 2019, 04:46:50 PM »

My biggest point is that good code can foster RP.  Why don't people break into and kill people in Kadius and Oash every day?  Because the compound represents an actual coded challenge.  Why do people not just kill people in broad daylight right by a soldier?  Because the code is effectively representing a realistic consequence if you make a dumb choice.  I want to know how we can go deeper with that.  How can the code foster RP and storylines.  That's what we should be shooting for IMHO.

I truly believe there can be a good balance between PK and RP but I don't think the game is in a good spot for that at the moment, and I've made it pretty clear I've had concerns about that since returning.

Your examples are ways of code reducing conflict, not increasing it. I fail to see how that fosters a deeper storyline.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Veselka

  • Posts: 1111
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #65 on: September 19, 2019, 04:49:10 PM »
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Other clans have training areas, and the Guild does so I'd ask you the same question.
Ah. Well I was just reading the annotated version sorry. Yeah I think the guild should have a training area (if they don't) that seems a bit strange. Even if it's just a bunch of old filthy mattresses on a rooftop somewhere with a lockable door guard.

It's literally above the Folley.

First of all that's IC info and second that's incorrect.

How is that incorrect? It's an area that the Guild has used for training, and others that are actually IC. It's a rooftop in the Labyrinth. ScArY.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Bebop

  • Posts: 4058
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #66 on: September 19, 2019, 04:52:18 PM »

My biggest point is that good code can foster RP.  Why don't people break into and kill people in Kadius and Oash every day?  Because the compound represents an actual coded challenge.  Why do people not just kill people in broad daylight right by a soldier?  Because the code is effectively representing a realistic consequence if you make a dumb choice.  I want to know how we can go deeper with that.  How can the code foster RP and storylines.  That's what we should be shooting for IMHO.

I truly believe there can be a good balance between PK and RP but I don't think the game is in a good spot for that at the moment, and I've made it pretty clear I've had concerns about that since returning.

Your examples are ways of code reducing conflict, not increasing it. I fail to see how that fosters a deeper storyline.

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con·flict
noun
/ˈkänˌflikt/
a serious disagreement or argument, typically a protracted one.

Please tell me more about how a dead character can instigate conflict by being snuffed from a skill in under 10 seconds that they have no possible way to save against?  Looking at the definition above I would argue instantly dead PCs have no way to instigate the conflict you speak of.  And I also reject the argument that constant, meaningless PK executed with cheese without any thought given to other alternatives or virtual surroundings by players constantly in pursuit of coded bonuses and leveling as opposed to RP is the prime way to deepen a story line.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1111
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2019, 04:56:52 PM »
I think that's an oversimplification.

Many plots are fueled by the deaths of other PCs.

Conflict can range beyond one or two PCs, to entire Houses.

There are motivations behind PKs beyond wantonly killing people most of the time.

You say you are 'all for PK', but how does it matter if the person is dead after 5 seconds, or after a minute? Their part in the story is over. You are correct in stating that a dead PC can rarely resolve the conflict that's already been resolved for them.

I think you are 'all for alternatives to PK', which is fine, but let's call it what it actually is. There are alternatives to conflict resolution without resorting to PK. Sometimes they are effective. Sometimes they aren't an option.

I don't think there is constant, meaningless PK executed with cheese without any thought given to other alternatives. I think that's far too black and white for the grey world of ArmageddonMUD and what takes place in game. I think it is also somewhat degrading to think that poorly of the player base. Sure, there's a few bad apples. But more or less, people have RP in mind when they are executing the code behind their PC. You may not be privy to all that information, particularly in a swift PK, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 04:58:48 PM by Veselka »
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5380
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #68 on: September 19, 2019, 05:06:56 PM »
If anything I'd like to make the Rinth even more deadly.

1) I like the idea of crossing territories dangerous to the wrong race. Moar conflict. Moar dead elf babies to practice backstab. 100% behind that.
2) I am 100% against making it less dangerous in favor of player happiness and chatacter longevity. There are roles that last longer. A rinth ANYTHING is not one of those roles.
3) I am 100% against pc leaders who spend all their time hiding in their safe zones not to get killed.
4) #bringbackrealspice
5) The Rinth is an area of CRIME. Part of being part of a criminal family is betrayal. I don't know that the code acting like piddly ass rinth bosses are templars is even in the realm of sane on Zalanthas. They aren't militia/soldiers/upstanding citizens. They are criminals. Live by the cut throat, die by it criminals. 


The Rinth has teeth. They bite. Don't poke the monster you're not trained to control.
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

Dar

  • Posts: 1526
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #69 on: September 19, 2019, 05:08:01 PM »
When my last rinthi died. The group I ran with was in possession of 10+ heramide objects and 20+ perraine objects. That was well over a year ago, so things change of course, but ... yeah.
At one point, there was an indie group running around 2-3 years ago, that had over 30 heramide objects around.

Now things changed. People died and the objects they had were lost, some got used. The sources of heramide objects were changed. But to say that someone is immortal is making me giggle inside. Admittedly, killing someone important is also very dangerous and requires you to borderline suicide to pull off a kill. We're talking vs Templars. Or ... organize a proper hit, but that requires 2-3 moderately to well skilled people who can work in sync.

Technically the guild does have a well protected compound. With hidden exits and a LOT of powerful NPCs inside to guard against intruders. The problem is that the compound is "not" a tavern. And tavern is the main place of business.

Also, keep in mind, if you give too much power to the guild boss, then the guild boss becomes a sponsor role only application. While right now, ANYBODY can become a guild boss. You have a crew that supports you and you can convince the guild that you can be profitable to them? Boom. You're the boss. Everyone on your crew dies and you're the lowest rank member of the clan, but you DO have access to clan only rooms? BOOM! You're the boss. As long as you can gather people around you into a crew that follows you. Nevermind that if you're compared to Byn, your rank is an equavelent of a Trooper AT BEST, sometimes even less then that.


A lot about the rinth is "Fake it till you make it" Act tough and you're assumed authority. A lot of people realize that OOCly, but ICly they dont and sometimes dont want to bother with it. They're willing to pay off that vague concept of "the guild", while in reality it's just some shmuck pulling protections who couldnt kill a byn trooper if he got paid for it.

While that is nice and all. In the end it is still all fake and the main cause of a con artist being caught is when the con artist starts believing their own cons. You're a rinthi crime boss and you act all tough? It'll fly for awhile, but then you will eventually face dive into a situation where your opponents ARE tough.

A lot of times, the rinth is filled with loners. People who abhor being part of the clan and like to play independently. Which is FINE, but if you're a crime boss and you want a crew to do shit with. You actually need reliable people to do that shit. And these reliable people need to be reliable enough to meet often and spar and train with each other. There are places out there that you can do it in. And it HAS been done before. Is it safe? Not really. But it's up to you to provide that security. There 'are' ways to do it.

There is a reason why some of the long lived ... guild bosses were actually very very very squishy in coded combat and yet were perfectly able to pull shit off. One such reason is that they knew they were squishy and made effort to not be in situations where their squishiness was put to a test.

Another common defence of the rinth is repercussions. You killed off someone important in the guild. Great. Nobody stopped you because it's a lawless area and well. Because it's a fucking lawless area. What's next? Are you a nobody independent? Then you're no different then a guild boss, even worse off. So the only thing the guild can do is kill you and your family. Are you a member of a House? Weeeell then. Because if that person you killed is a Boss, then he had a crew. And that crew is intrinsically motivated to get revenge. Afterall if they dont, then it sends a message to everyone that they cant protect their own. And that crew is most likely full of shadies and sneaks and pick pockets and so on. Suddenly, that house is assaulted. Their members keep losing keys, swords, mount tickets. The price for selling information about your house to your rivals drops. Yeah. Militarily you're probably stronger then all of them. But they went to the mattresses. Good luck chasing them around the sewers while they pick off all of the houses squishy members.

Unless ... the crew doesnt care. Whether it was paid off, or they just dont plain care. And if they dont, then you my dear dead crime boss, was not a boss at all. Just some schmuck running a con.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 05:23:09 PM by Dar »

Lutagar

  • Posts: 299
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #70 on: September 19, 2019, 05:17:57 PM »
-Backstab and Sap aren't infallible even at master levels, they do fail, and rarely OHK unless you are real strong, or the person is already damaged or has stun loss.

It's not infallible but the removal of master scan and listen for all but a few classes has made it more powerful than ever.

Miscreants that know what they're doing are basically invisible and will shadow you with 0 risk until you go somewhere it's safe to attack you. Even if you do get away (you probably won't) they'll escape, and do it again, and no one can stop them because they can't be seen.

Not got certain spells or master scan? There isn't a counter other than never leaving your clan HQ or staying offline until they die to something unrelated.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 05:22:59 PM by Lutagar »

Dar

  • Posts: 1526
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #71 on: September 19, 2019, 05:49:19 PM »
Miscreants don't get those skills to master and those that do, don't get master stealth.

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 898
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #72 on: September 19, 2019, 06:29:12 PM »
What tends to happen with stuff like Peraine is you get a skilled group or person and they farm this stuff like crazy, and all of a sudden you have a massive influx of it.  Then it sits in 3-5 storerooms of clans/persons as it is gradually used up.

There was at some point an egregious increase in the number of these objs around, which created really crazy stockpiles that were dealt with.

If there were changes to things to mitigate some of this and make it more difficult to obtain the really rare poisons, I expect that the changes would be gradual and you wouldn't be told about them.

kahuna

  • Posts: 202
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #73 on: September 19, 2019, 06:33:03 PM »
What tends to happen with stuff like Peraine is you get a skilled group or person and they farm this stuff like crazy, and all of a sudden you have a massive influx of it.  Then it sits in 3-5 storerooms of clans/persons as it is gradually used up.

There was at some point an egregious increase in the number of these objs around, which created really crazy stockpiles that were dealt with.

If there were changes to things to mitigate some of this and make it more difficult to obtain the really rare poisons, I expect that the changes would be gradual and you wouldn't be told about them.

Make it more difficult to get (I think it is pretty difficult already) and in 6 months you'll have a thread complaining about it.

I'm not saying this in jest either. I am saying that no matter what you do you won't please everyone in instances such as this. Either you make it nigh impossible or difficult.. difficult is subjective and the only ways I know to get it is already 'difficult' not 'easy' by any means.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1973
Re: The Rinth Needs Teeth
« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2019, 06:45:56 PM »
The people who farm them enough that they single handedly supply an entire city worth of backstabbery should probably not do that. Consider that just because you can, does not mean you should.