Author Topic: A way to make elementalists scary  (Read 2228 times)

Inks

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Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2019, 09:14:09 AM »
I think elementalists are scary.
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Nao

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Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2019, 09:21:37 AM »
I think elementalists are scary.

Finally someone said it.
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LindseyBalboa

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Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2019, 11:58:05 AM »
Thirded

ShaLeah

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Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2019, 08:22:35 AM »
I have opinions on magicks.  Anyone hanging around the Discord knows them.

#bringbackrealmagicks
BUT
#donttakeawaythenewsubguilds

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Lizzie

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Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2019, 09:42:14 AM »
I have opinions on magicks.  Anyone hanging around the Discord knows them.

#bringbackrealmagicks
BUT
#donttakeawaythenewsubguilds

1) #bringbackrealmagicks even if it's special app only or secret unannounced invitation-only sponsored roles after acquiring full 3 karma status.
2) #keeptouchedonly
3) for Sorcerers, allow them to pick a path to start with, and a second path to ultimately learn if they manage to live that long and git gud.
4) #ihatecompromisebuthereisone : for #1, allow elemental sub-class players to pick any TWO subclasses of the same element, to become a main class, and then pick any mundane non-extended subclass as their actual subclass.
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ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5339
Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2019, 11:28:57 AM »
3) for Sorcerers, allow them to pick a path to start with, and a second path to ultimately learn if they manage to live that long and git gud.

Sorcerors aren't elementalists woman - Stop derailing!

4) #ihatecompromisebuthereisone : for #1, allow elemental sub-class players to pick any TWO subclasses of the same element, to become a main class, and then pick any mundane non-extended subclass as their actual subclass.

You wanna make elementalists REALLY scary?
Full guild elementalist with ANY touched/subclass.
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Lizzie

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Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2019, 11:58:20 AM »
3) for Sorcerers, allow them to pick a path to start with, and a second path to ultimately learn if they manage to live that long and git gud.

Sorcerors aren't elementalists woman - Stop derailing!

4) #ihatecompromisebuthereisone : for #1, allow elemental sub-class players to pick any TWO subclasses of the same element, to become a main class, and then pick any mundane non-extended subclass as their actual subclass.

You wanna make elementalists REALLY scary?
Full guild elementalist with ANY touched/subclass.

If they could pick any touched/subclass, that would make them sorcerers. Elemental mages do NOT have a direct connection to any element that isn't their own.

And bringing up the sorcery is related. Elementalists were dangerous *in and of themselves, notwithstanding subguild combos* but nowhere near as dangerous as sorcerers. Now, with the limitations, the danger of a sub-element vs. the danger of a sub-sorc is more equitable. Sorc-subs plus main guilds make a sorc potentially not much more powerful than an element-sub plus main guild. I'm talking codewise, and the code is supposedly designed to support the roleplay.

If your *character* has learned through experience that the sorc who's been terrorizing the town can't actually do most of the things he claims he can do (maybe they were best buds, or father/son, or intimate girlfriends/mates, until "something happened") - but the local Oash Whiran can ... then there's a HUGE disconnect between roleplay and code that needs to be addressed.
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Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2019, 12:15:47 PM »
Just a little bit of exaggeration going on in here at the moment.
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Brokkr

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Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2019, 01:02:16 PM »
The biggest limiter in how dangerous sorcs are is how people play them.

Tried to address part of this through knowledge for folks that play sorcs, rest is up to the players.

Delirium

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Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2019, 01:30:21 PM »
So what you're saying is I need to app a sub guild sorcerer.

More seriously, after the update to their spell list (the very first release did have them looking a bit tame) they were no joke. With the new guilds? Absolutely terrifying.
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number13

  • Posts: 1052
Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2019, 04:18:49 PM »
There were a bunch of Vampire: the Masquerade MUSHes back in the early 2000s/late 90s. I tried a couple and hated them, because you were either playing a Vampire or you were playing a victim...someone for the vampire PCs to lord over and flex their e-peens. Most people, obviously, played vampires, with a smattering of newer players stuck in the awful role of being a victim in a server full of predators.

I feel like that's what elementalist/sorc players want -- a game of all powerful magic-users with a few hapless victims around to torment. It's not healthy or fun. There needs to be a gradient where the majority of players are playing mundanes, or the whole system will fail to convey the correct feeling.

If you want magic to be scary, make it rare for PCs -- like 1 in 20 PC. If it isn't rare, it can't be all-powerful. It probably shouldn't be as powerful as it already is -- certain class + elementalist combinations are already incredibly powerful compared to mundane options.

The templars fulfill that apex predator role, and they're heavily constrained in number by virtue of how they are apped. (In fact, there's probably too many templar PCs already, given Allanak's population, or at least there was a RL month ago).  That works. It's works great. It's very, very easy to RP being scared shitless of templars, because I actually am scared of templars.

I'm not scared of, say, Whirans. I'm *annoyed* by Whirans, especially when they use a certain spell. It doesn't elicit a fear response from me at all. It feels super lame.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 04:45:48 PM by number13 »

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2019, 05:52:28 PM »
If you think Whirans are only "annoying," boy, you've got some fun surprises in store!
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Brokkr

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Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2019, 05:57:53 PM »
Sometimes I wonder if folks perception is colored by whether they play primarily inside or outside of cities.  A whiran that might be an annoyance if you never leave Allanak might be something altogether different if you encounter them in the wastes.

Perhaps the loss folks perceive sorcs to have experienced is reaching a level where they are just as scary no matter where you are.

number13

  • Posts: 1052
Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2019, 07:22:07 PM »
If you think Whirans are only "annoying," boy, you've got some fun surprises in store!

Naw. Not fun. There are a couple of whiran spells that simply shouldn't exist. And there's a couple more that should be nerfed into uselessness.

Because of rules, I can't explain why I despise the whiran branch of the elementalist tree so thoroughly. But even when they PK one of my characters, it never feels scary or awesome, and certainly not fun. Encountering whirans and their bullshit has prompted me into extended armabreaks more than once. The only word that echos in my skull when dealing with their stuff is "lame", regardless of whether the chicanery is coming from an actual whiran or a sorc using their flavor of spells.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 07:23:41 PM by number13 »

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2019, 07:35:01 PM »
O.K.  :-X
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Quote from: Vanth
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number13

  • Posts: 1052
Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2019, 07:51:42 PM »
Here's the thing.

Stop pretending magic is rare or scary. As the game is played today, it's not. Balance the game with that concept in mind, and allow elementalists more avenues of interaction with the rest of the playerbase. Gemmies should be able to join the Byn or get hired by noble houses beyond just the Oash, but they shouldn't overshadow a combat speced mundane in the Arena, or a sneaky speced mundane in the Rinth.. This can be done.

For example, Whirans shouldn't be invincible death machines that can attack you regardless of your location, explore risk-free, and only suffer consequences if they make a human error. Instead, they should be able to float a little bit for a short duration, yank *willing* subjects to their location, turn perfectly invisible for *short* duration. Not better than mundanes -- but different. Situationally super useful, without overshadowing mundane abilities.

Then there can be flavors of magic (or whatever) that can actually be rare, powerful, and scary.  To be rare, they should actually be rare...1 out every 25 or 50 PCs should be super special. It should be a rollcall that gets passed around different players, instead of, say, a handful of players making an endless string of karma 3 characters.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 07:54:04 PM by number13 »

kahuna

  • Posts: 129
Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2019, 08:17:40 PM »
Here's the thing.

Stop pretending magic is rare or scary. As the game is played today, it's not. Balance the game with that concept in mind, and allow elementalists more avenues of interaction with the rest of the playerbase. Gemmies should be able to join the Byn or get hired by noble houses beyond just the Oash, but they shouldn't overshadow a combat speced mundane in the Arena, or a sneaky speced mundane in the Rinth.. This can be done.

For example, Whirans shouldn't be invincible death machines that can attack you regardless of your location, explore risk-free, and only suffer consequences if they make a human error. Instead, they should be able to float a little bit for a short duration, yank *willing* subjects to their location, turn perfectly invisible for *short* duration. Not better than mundanes -- but different. Situationally super useful, without overshadowing mundane abilities.

Then there can be flavors of magic (or whatever) that can actually be rare, powerful, and scary.  To be rare, they should actually be rare...1 out every 25 or 50 PCs should be super special. It should be a rollcall that gets passed around different players, instead of, say, a handful of players making an endless string of karma 3 characters.

I don't know what game you're playing but I'm fairly certain there are not people rolling up a ton of magickers, half-giants or muls. I can count on one hand the amount of half-giants, muls, and magickers I've seen in the past 6 months and I play in populated areas and clans. Mundanes are by far the most played types of PCs in the game.

Would love to see a statistical breakdown of what is in the game but not sure if staff would be willing to release? I have a pretty good idea that city elves are rarely played for obvious reasons. But something like this would be nice:
human - 100
elf - 30
half-elf - 30
d-elf - 10
half-giant - 5
mul - 5

raider - 20
enforcer - 30
fighter - 30
laborer - 5
I think it would help from an OOC perspective to know what is or isn't being played and to know what the game might be needing at any given time. I like to fill niches, don't like playing in overly populated clans with tons of players, I enjoy the dead clans that need me more than those that don't.

mansa

  • Posts: 9710
Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2019, 11:04:05 PM »
Are you asking for data from Brokkr?!?
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Jihelu

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Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2019, 02:00:24 AM »
Didn't we see statistics about this a while ago? If I recall there were more Magickers than I thought.

I forget though.

Rogerthat

  • Posts: 449
Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2019, 09:12:39 AM »
Elementalist are scary already. And if you don't think so.. Then.. I just don't know.  ;) :D ::)
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Lizzie

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Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2019, 09:46:48 AM »
Elementalist are scary already. And if you don't think so.. Then.. I just don't know.  ;) :D ::)

Are they scary because they're elementalists? Or are they scary because they're combat-mundane main classes who can buff their mundane skills with magic?

Once upon a time, elementalists were scary because they were elementalists. They didn't need to rely primarily on mundane skills to do scary things and be scary people. The mundane skills in their subguild helped them do mundane tasks, and the non-magick skills in their main class helped them, to some small extent, with minor non-magick defenses and other mundane tasks.
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Alesan

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Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2019, 10:14:40 AM »
Elementalist are scary already. And if you don't think so.. Then.. I just don't know.  ;) :D ::)

I don't know if it's just me, but the strange assortment of smileys makes me question the intentional message of your post. What does it mean?

Dar

  • Posts: 1449
Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2019, 10:52:13 AM »
Then there can be flavors of magic (or whatever) that can actually be rare, powerful, and scary.  To be rare, they should actually be rare...1 out every 25 or 50 PCs should be super special. It should be a rollcall that gets passed around different players, instead of, say, a handful of players making an endless string of karma 3 characters.


Isn't there like a 4-5 months wait between 0 karma and 3 karma? I mean they spend 3 karma to app up a whiran and they need to be alive for 4-5 months to have 3 karma available again to roll up another whiran after the last one bites the dust. That's one of the things that keeps the magickers rare. The karma expenditures and frequently short life span of those roles anyway.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2019, 10:55:51 AM »
Elementalist are scary already. And if you don't think so.. Then.. I just don't know.  ;) :D ::)

Are they scary because they're elementalists? Or are they scary because they're combat-mundane main classes who can buff their mundane skills with magic?

Once upon a time, elementalists were scary because they were elementalists. They didn't need to rely primarily on mundane skills to do scary things and be scary people. The mundane skills in their subguild helped them do mundane tasks, and the non-magick skills in their main class helped them, to some small extent, with minor non-magick defenses and other mundane tasks.

Personally, I PK'ed 3? PCs in under 8 days played with a miscreant/gicker...so no, it's not just buffing their mundane skills.  The mundane skills absolutely help immensely, but there's pretty much no mundane subclass you could pair with a miscreant and wreck people at 8 days (unless you have access to heramide).

Then there can be flavors of magic (or whatever) that can actually be rare, powerful, and scary.  To be rare, they should actually be rare...1 out every 25 or 50 PCs should be super special. It should be a rollcall that gets passed around different players, instead of, say, a handful of players making an endless string of karma 3 characters.


Isn't there like a 4-5 months wait between 0 karma and 3 karma? I mean they spend 3 karma to app up a whiran and they need to be alive for 4-5 months to have 3 karma available again to roll up another whiran after the last one bites the dust. That's one of the things that keeps the magickers rare. The karma expenditures and frequently short life span of those roles anyway.

Tempest is only 2.  (It's pretty awesome, though.)
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I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
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I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

X-D

  • Posts: 5658
Re: A way to make elementalists scary
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2019, 11:07:42 PM »
I am just going to quote Brokkr on this point.



Quote
Sometimes I wonder if folks perception is colored by whether they play primarily inside or outside of cities.  A whiran that might be an annoyance if you never leave Allanak might be something altogether different if you encounter them in the wastes.

Perhaps the loss folks perceive sorcs to have experienced is reaching a level where they are just as scary no matter where you are.

Even if the elementalist subs are anemic (Sorry I have not done that request yet Brokkr, it is coming this week I promise) If you play outside the city your perception would likely be very different. Also...whiran players do tend to play out the mercurial nature of whira so they do tend to lose interest in things quickly...this often can be good for you PC. But if your PC gives reason to focus.......heh.


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