Author Topic: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?  (Read 621 times)

Strongheart

  • Posts: 278
Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« on: June 25, 2019, 10:47:11 PM »
Due to the changes on the economic structure of Armageddon and the ongoing reworks to classes/subclasses, I believe it is time to shed more light on what tools do what!

Simply put: how come master bandage makers are capable of achieving remarkable crafts in their field yet have not learned about the tools in pursuit to perfect that skill? I have found it jarring that players feel the need to ask what tool gives a boost to what when it should be relatively common knowledge, and completely expected for masters of a craft to know what tools would assist them in their efforts.

The truth is is that tools are (for whatever reason) not common sense when it comes to those who focus on the crafting trade. This is much unlike the attention and transparency that has been given to combat, something that actually results in finality of the survival of characters in-game.

I am very curious on hearing what the playerbase has to say about this! It seems like it wouldn't be a change that would make crafting any easier for there are many, many unknown crafts and not to mention how obscure the materials can be to craft them.

What do you all think?

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2019, 10:55:41 PM »
I would put a request in.  I complained about tools in another post and was informed of some by staff of some that are available.

Some are strange through and don't make much sense.  (coughAWLcough)
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Heade

  • Posts: 812
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2019, 10:58:45 PM »
Yeah, I'd like to see a bit more transparency on what tools do what, primarily because a lot of tools can be useful IRL for multiple crafts, but in-game, as I understand it, they're limited to giving a bonus to a single craft.
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Brokkr

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Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2019, 12:09:04 AM »
Two, actually.

Divorced from their ability to be part of a crafting recipe as a "tool type", which they can only the one of.

Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2019, 09:41:06 AM »
I suppose a better discussion would be:

Should tools give a bonus to the crafting skill of note
or
Should tools be required in a recipe, a la needing a pair of scissors in the room to make a cut of linen

Currently, its sometimes A, sometimes B, sometimes both, and rarely neither.

It should be a little more consistent. Why does holding scissors increase your clothworking skill for one craft, but is only required (and does not provide a bonus) for another in the same skill line?

ANSWER ME.
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Alesan

  • Posts: 332
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2019, 10:36:43 AM »
But if tools became part of crafting recipes, we wouldn't have the freedom to use whatever tool we liked and pretended it helped when it codedly had nothing to do with the skill we're using.

Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2019, 10:46:37 AM »
But if tools became part of crafting recipes, we wouldn't have the freedom to use whatever tool we liked and pretended it helped when it codedly had nothing to do with the skill we're using.

They already ARE part of the recipes. Its just that instead of "craft linen into dress" its more "craft linen into dress (and make sure there are scissors in inventory or in room)". We're just inconsistent about it.

Cotton requires mound spindle, and on success it gives you a length of cotton and returns the spindle.
Linen dress requires length of linen and dye, es scissors to give boost to skill check for success
Longsword requires obsidian and a whetstone in inventory or in room, provides no bonuses to check but not part of the 5item recipe.
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valeria

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Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2019, 10:54:06 AM »
An awl is a leatherworking tool irl. It punches holes in leather so that you can get your shoe thread through or whatever. I don't know about in the game, though.
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Alesan

  • Posts: 332
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2019, 10:58:40 AM »
But if tools became part of crafting recipes, we wouldn't have the freedom to use whatever tool we liked and pretended it helped when it codedly had nothing to do with the skill we're using.

They already ARE part of the recipes. Its just that instead of "craft linen into dress" its more "craft linen into dress (and make sure there are scissors in inventory or in room)". We're just inconsistent about it.

Cotton requires mound spindle, and on success it gives you a length of cotton and returns the spindle.
Linen dress requires length of linen and dye, es scissors to give boost to skill check for success
Longsword requires obsidian and a whetstone in inventory or in room, provides no bonuses to check but not part of the 5item recipe.

I meant if it became a standard...

Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2019, 11:01:33 AM »
Really, what would be different from now?

Other than trying to craft and seeing "That REQUIRES a sharpening", nothing stops you from also es'ing a chisel and insisting it helps, when it doesn't.
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2019, 11:56:02 AM »
An awl is a leatherworking tool irl. It punches holes in leather so that you can get your shoe thread through or whatever. I don't know about in the game, though.

According to an unnamed staffer the awl is the armor making bonus tool.

Now if thatís correct, fuck if I know. I didnít notice a word change on anything while I held it.
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Brokkr

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Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2019, 11:57:22 AM »
It should be a little more consistent. Why does holding scissors increase your clothworking skill for one craft, but is only required (and does not provide a bonus) for another in the same skill line?

Not sure what you mean here?  If scissors increase your clothworking skill, they increase your skill level and that applies to all clothworking recipes.

If you mean, why doesn't holding such scissors provide a bonus to any craft that has "a length of white linen" in it, irregardless of whether it is a clothworking recipe, the simple answer is because we haven't set up crafting that way.

Brokkr

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Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2019, 11:58:48 AM »
An awl is a leatherworking tool irl. It punches holes in leather so that you can get your shoe thread through or whatever. I don't know about in the game, though.

According to an unnamed staffer the awl is the armor making bonus tool.

Now if thatís correct, fuck if I know. I didnít notice a word change on anything while I held it.

Words will not change for any +skill item in the game, for any skill.  It always displays your native skill level.  What could change is the difficulty level of the recipe (swear I just made a post in a last couple of months that detailed this?).

Namino

  • Posts: 471
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2019, 12:08:50 PM »
Code: [Select]
> craft bone
You could make...
   1) a few separate types of bone from that. [skinning, manageable]
> es knife
You hold your first skinning knife.
> craft bone
You could make...
   1) a few separate types of bone from that. [skinning, easy]
> ep knife
You brandish your second skinning knife.
You could make...
   1) a few separate types of bone from that. [skinning, effortless]
>
You feel your karma stripped.

Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2019, 12:10:00 PM »
It should be a little more consistent. Why does holding scissors increase your clothworking skill for one craft, but is only required (and does not provide a bonus) for another in the same skill line?

Not sure what you mean here?  If scissors increase your clothworking skill, they increase your skill level and that applies to all clothworking recipes.

If you mean, why doesn't holding such scissors provide a bonus to any craft that has "a length of white linen" in it, irregardless of whether it is a clothworking recipe, the simple answer is because we haven't set up crafting that way.

I meant that in some cases, holding the scissors gives +5 clothworking.
In other cases, you can't be holding the scissors because they are required as part of the 5 components.
And yet in others, they have to be in-room or in-inventory to count as the "requires a [tool type]".

It just isn't consistent. Unless you hold scissors for the +5 clothworking, and have another pair of scissors as the craft requires.
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Veselka

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Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2019, 12:34:58 PM »
I believe the inconsistency could be due to many, many of the crafts being made (recipes) before tools were compatible with recipes in this way. So newer crafts seem to more or less include them, while older crafts don't. I think it'd be a massive undertaking to adjust old crafts that don't use tools in this way...Not sure if it'd be a great benefit or use of time.

As an only 'sometimes crafter' I do find things like this confusing. More than anything I'd like the ability to reverse engineer components, or the old 'You think you could make X if you had Y' argument that pops up from time to time. As a craftsman IRL, the way crafting works in Zalanthas is pretty backwards, in that I can divine what a completed product is made of, but can't divine how to complete a product from a few of the components to see what I might be missing.

Then again -- Zalanthans are for the most part illiterate, don't have books they can do research with in material sciences, and likely have a stunted imagination when it comes to crafting in a more ancient technology-bereft world. At least that's how I explain it to myself when I get frustrated.
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2019, 02:44:08 PM »
An awl is a leatherworking tool irl. It punches holes in leather so that you can get your shoe thread through or whatever. I don't know about in the game, though.

According to an unnamed staffer the awl is the armor making bonus tool.

Now if thatís correct, fuck if I know. I didnít notice a word change on anything while I held it.

Words will not change for any +skill item in the game, for any skill.  It always displays your native skill level.  What could change is the difficulty level of the recipe (swear I just made a post in a last couple of months that detailed this?).

When I say words I mean difficulty. 

Effortless, easy, manageable, difficult etc.

I never notice a change at armormaking with an awl in my hand.
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rinthrat

  • Posts: 112
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2019, 04:09:26 PM »
It should be a little more consistent. Why does holding scissors increase your clothworking skill for one craft, but is only required (and does not provide a bonus) for another in the same skill line?

Not sure what you mean here?  If scissors increase your clothworking skill, they increase your skill level and that applies to all clothworking recipes.

If you mean, why doesn't holding such scissors provide a bonus to any craft that has "a length of white linen" in it, irregardless of whether it is a clothworking recipe, the simple answer is because we haven't set up crafting that way.

I meant that in some cases, holding the scissors gives +5 clothworking.
In other cases, you can't be holding the scissors because they are required as part of the 5 components.
And yet in others, they have to be in-room or in-inventory to count as the "requires a [tool type]".

It just isn't consistent. Unless you hold scissors for the +5 clothworking, and have another pair of scissors as the craft requires.

If the craft requires a tool, you can hold that tool. The system does check if the required item is in your hands, not just inventory.

Brokkr

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Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2019, 05:01:18 PM »
emote slams down the gavel.

say (black robes billowing around him) I hereby sentence Riev to three Artisans in a row.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2019, 06:43:04 PM »
emote slams down the gavel.

say (black robes billowing around him) I hereby sentence Riev to three Artisans in a row.
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Strange plague causing craftsman to jump off roofs or try to pet tarantulas.
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James de Monet

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Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2019, 06:52:09 PM »
Iíve been playing this game for almost twenty years, and played a lot of armorcrafters.  I still have no idea what tools give a bonus when crafting chitin.  I just use what ICly makes sense, even though Iím OOCly sure it does nothing.  A little clarity would be cool by me.
You know I think if James simply retitled his thread "Cheese" and apologized for his first post being off-topic, all problems would be solved.

mansa

  • Posts: 9723
Re: Poll: Should crafting tools be more transparent?
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2019, 07:39:36 PM »
It should be a little more consistent. Why does holding scissors increase your clothworking skill for one craft, but is only required (and does not provide a bonus) for another in the same skill line?

Not sure what you mean here?  If scissors increase your clothworking skill, they increase your skill level and that applies to all clothworking recipes.

If you mean, why doesn't holding such scissors provide a bonus to any craft that has "a length of white linen" in it, irregardless of whether it is a clothworking recipe, the simple answer is because we haven't set up crafting that way.

I meant that in some cases, holding the scissors gives +5 clothworking.
In other cases, you can't be holding the scissors because they are required as part of the 5 components.
And yet in others, they have to be in-room or in-inventory to count as the "requires a [tool type]".

It just isn't consistent. Unless you hold scissors for the +5 clothworking, and have another pair of scissors as the craft requires.

Can't you include the item you're holding in the craft command?
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