Author Topic: My Beef with Mastercrafting Items aka Please Consider Changing this, Love Bebop  (Read 1512 times)

Bebop

  • Posts: 3984
I'm curious what people's opinion's are on the current master craft set up.  After being back a little over a year now, I find it incredibly jarring that master craft requires either the use of a subguild or a karma point AND a subguild.

I personally, don't see any point in playing a crafting-based character that has little ability to defend themselves if the extent of their use is going to be to just sit around and craft pre-made bone swords, and trinkets forever and ever.  That seems incredibly underwhelming.  The joy of the pursuit of a good craft-based character before was to end up as a desirable, sought out artisan.  It seems to me that's a given. 

Oh, I'm playing a craftsperson or an artisan and I can't defend myself very well although I may choose a subguild that might help me with that a little. The pay off to the fact I can be instaganked is not so that I can just sit around making the same premade items everyone has seen before (and usually avoid) but that one day people will seek me out for my own array of cool shit.  When you take that away from them all you've got is a very social PC who can craft the same pre-made good everyone has seen before and hoard money for selling said goods.  That's it.  Why make people who are already extremely limited sacrifice a subguild to do what would absolutely be natural for those classes to do.

The other option just make it so that classes that are craft oriented (Artisan and Craftsperson) inherently have the mastercraft ability.  It just does not make sense to make these people then use an extra subguild when their whole character is about crafting.

Although I do like the mastercraft karma options, and that seems fair so that everyone can't just play someone who can cutthroats and also make thousands sewing the prettiest dress you've ever seen --- the custom craft basic subguild is what I primarily take issue with.  If we want to see less combat-oriented play I think we need to get rid of this really redundant process that further punishes a type of character that is already one of the most tedious and vulnerable in the game to play. 

Likewise, I'd like to see more mundane 1 point karma options for people like crafters to choose from that would allow them to defend themselves a little or flesh out their personalities in other ways.

Thoughts?

Along the lines of my thoughts above (money storage and people avoiding the same mass craft items) that brings me onto some other points I'd like to hit on about items/crafting/the economy.

1) There needs to be a far wider array of craftable items.  Although I know that's a lot of work we have a lot of creative minds here.  A lot of people avoid that same obsidian snake bracelet or whatever we've seen three hundred thousand times even if the shop pays good money for them.  Why?  Because even if IG they're relatively impressive?  They're so overly saturated that OOC they are not.

We need craftable items that people will actually seek out crafters for.  ESPECIALLY if it isn't a given that crafters, characters completely devoted to crafting, wouldn't eventually have the sense to make something uniquely their own.  At present I can't think of a ton of things crafters are sought especially for, unless we get into the more criminal side of things.  Usually when it comes down to it if I can buy a moonstone thingy that I know comes from a pre-made crafting slot, or some Kadian thingabob with eighty wear locations and a page long desc --- sorry, I'm going with the Kadian thingy.

We need our crafters to be more desirable.  Part of a crafter BEING desirable was they could use their brains and craft.  A subguild and or karma point is too extreme and should not be needed.  It punishes an already very limited, vulnerable class.  But I digress and already said that.  There needs to be more fun craftable items out there that make people want to seek out crafters instead of what often actually happens and they avoid their mass made bone swords that someone who chose a weapon making subguild could choose.

2) I really wish the Kadian shops had way more money and way more items, with less "copies" of those items.  I don't like seeing the same pre-made sets of roughly 20 - 30 items cycle through.  Then you have to seek out a Kadian, and they have to place an order and so on.  Yes.  Showings should be fun and a grand experience. Yes you should feel a certain need to still seek out Kadians.  I don't think that's going away in the face of parties and so on.   --- However, not all PCs have access to such, especially when a merchant is busy with nobles and Templars and things. 

Sometimes all someone can do just run into a city during off peak and run out.  I really wish the shops had a bigger array of versatile, at times seemingly random options.  It should feel like a fun hunt every time you hit your respective city's shopping area.  But not only does it not feel that, as someone who has been on this game since 2004 - my god, it is and in may cases, has always been the same thing.  Certain merchants make sense.  I'm a pet seller for a tribe.  I sell pets.  Okay.  I'm a souvenir seller.  I sell trinkets for this House.  Makes sense!  But others representing the great merchant houses, it absolutely doesn't.

This game has SO many cool items in it but you have to dig and dig and dig so hard to get out of the realm of the same few items every one has seen before in the NPC shops.  That's doing a disservice to how many actually cool items there are in this game.  It should be no problem seeing people wearing random bits and pieces and things that you don't see too often.  From cheaply cobbled thingies to intricate beautiful pieces.  I don't have all of the answers, but I feel like the IG merchants need to be way less cookie cutter.

You can't even pop over to Tuluk now to double your odds to find some rare thingy or show you went to Freil's and got something Nakki's can't get.  I really wish there were way more random items in the shop so peeking into them would feel more exciting, like you might actually find something good.  I also think there should be less of each item available.  Zalanthan shops should feel like you've got one or two choices of each hand made good.  It needs to feel less like Walmart --- like oh here we have THREE HUNDRED green cloaks in the back and if you don't get it this time?  Don't worry.  In about a RL month, you'll get the chance again.

I think every time the shops generate it should be 80 random things that may or may not have a single duplicate, and if you don't get it then you don't know if you'll see it in a RL year.  If you miss it?  Then go find the Kadian.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 02:56:29 PM by Bebop »

mansa

  • Posts: 9710
I personally, don't see any point in playing a crafting-based character that has little ability to defend themselves if the extent of their use is going to be to just sit around and craft pre-made bone swords, and trinkets forever and ever.

What do you mean by defending themselves?

..Oh, I'm playing a craftsperson or an artisan and I can't defend myself very well although I may choose a subguild that might help me with that a little. The pay off to the fact I can be instaganked is not so that I can just sit around making the same premade items everyone has seen before (and usually avoid) but that one day people will seek me out for my own array of cool shit. 

Oh.   So, the ability to custom craft items has a politic power behind it, in that you won't get killed because your character has the ability to make new stuff.


I don't agree with that in theory.   Has it been acted out in game that political powers are biased towards custom crafters?



***
Here's some data on the custom craft submissions in the request tool.  The data is based on completing a ticket.  It's from January 2017 til now.

It shows that the volume has gone down a little bit, but it is still averaging 2 custom craft submissions a week.

1) There needs to be a far wider array of craftable items.  Although I know that's a lot of work we have a lot of creative minds here.  A lot of people avoid that same obsidian snake bracelet or whatever we've seen three hundred thousand times even if the shop pays good money for them.  Why?  Because even if IG they're relatively impressive?  They're so overly saturated that OOC they are not.

Shabago just completed the "Armor project" which went through all the armors in game and harmonized their stats, weights, and CRAFTING.   He's stating he's moving on to WEAPONS next.  I assume going through this, he's going to make non-craftable weapons craftable at the same time.

We need craftable items that people will actually seek out crafters for.  ESPECIALLY if it isn't a given that crafters, characters completely devoted to crafting, wouldn't eventually have the sense to make something uniquely their own.  At present I can't think of a ton of things crafters are sought especially for, unless we get into the more criminal side of things.  Usually when it comes down to it if I can buy a moonstone thingy that I know comes from a pre-made crafting slot, or some Kadian thingabob with eighty wear locations and a page long desc --- sorry, I'm going with the Kadian thingy.

We need our crafters to be more desirable.  Part of a crafter BEING desirable was they could use their brains and craft.  A subguild and or karma point is too extreme and should not be needed.  It punishes an already very limited, vulnerable class.  But I digress and already said that.  There needs to be more fun craftable items out there that make people want to seek out crafters instead of what often actually happens and they avoid their mass made bone swords that someone who chose a weapon making subguild could choose.

In this fantasy game, what is more desirable than weapons and armors?   You seem to be asking the playerbase that they should want something else other than that, something more fun, but you didn't give examples.  They may already exist, it's just I need a reminder as to what they are.
Food?  Perfume?  Poison?  Lockpicks?  Mounts?




2) I really wish the Kadian shops had way more money and way more items, with less "copies" of those items.  I don't like seeing the same pre-made sets of roughly 20 - 30 items cycle through.  Then you have to seek out a Kadian, and they have to place an order and so on.  Yes.  Showings should be fun and a grand experience. Yes you should feel a certain need to still seek out Kadians.  I don't think that's going away in the face of parties and so on.   --- However, not all PCs have access to such, especially when a merchant is busy with nobles and Templars and things. 

Sometimes all someone can do just run into a city during off peak and run out.  I really wish the shops had a bigger array of versatile, at times seemingly random options.  It should feel like a fun hunt every time you hit your respective city's shopping area.  But not only does it not feel that, as someone who has been on this game since 2004 - my god, it is and in may cases, has always been the same thing.  Certain merchants make sense.  I'm a pet seller for a tribe.  I sell pets.  Okay.  I'm a souvenir seller.  I sell trinkets for this House.  Makes sense!  But others representing the great merchant houses, it absolutely doesn't.

This game has SO many cool items in it but you have to dig and dig and dig so hard to get out of the realm of the same few items every one has seen before in the NPC shops.  That's doing a disservice to how many actually cool items there are in this game.  It should be no problem seeing people wearing random bits and pieces and things that you don't see too often.  From cheaply cobbled thingies to intricate beautiful pieces.  I don't have all of the answers, but I feel like the IG merchants need to be way less cookie cutter.

You can't even pop over to Tuluk now to double your odds to find some rare thingy or show you went to Freil's and got something Nakki's can't get.  I really wish there were way more random items in the shop so peeking into them would feel more exciting, like you might actually find something good.  I also think there should be less of each item available.  Zalanthan shops should feel like you've got one or two choices of each hand made good.  It needs to feel less like Walmart --- like oh here we have THREE HUNDRED green cloaks in the back and if you don't get it this time?  Don't worry.  In about a RL month, you'll get the chance again.

I think every time the shops generate it should be 80 random things that may or may not have a single duplicate, and if you don't get it then you don't know if you'll see it in a RL year.  If you miss it?  Then go find the Kadian.

It looks like you're asking for more *things*, but you haven't really stated what the things could be.  It would be better if you could give specific examples what you're looking for.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 05:18:41 PM by mansa »
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Silksquad

  • Posts: 41
I'm curious what people's opinion's are on the current master craft set up.  After being back a little over a year now, I find it incredibly jarring that master craft requires either the use of a subguild or a karma point AND a subguild.

This is not vastly different than prior days that required the possession of Merchant Guild or a Subcraft with Custom-Crafting rights such as Master Tailor, so on. At first, I found the system repugnant and yet now, having tested it, and being myself a dyed-in-the-wool crafter in a all capacities, I find it actually rather useful. It means, if I choose to design new soaps I could do so as a Stalker who is whooping yompar or if I want to be the very best Salarri employee I can do so with Soldier/Custom Crafter and not only stomp elves nicking my goods, but I can make dazzlingly beautiful things in the process. So in short. I support the Sub Guild Custom Crafter and use of Karma.

That said, what I would like to see is that Kadius, Salarr, and Kurac be given further capabilities to get new into the world whether by way of ANY employee in the House given a Custom Craft slot, a Family Member being able to Custom without requiring the Sub Guild with or without karma, or those employed and Family therein get 2 slots per 30 days. I am not for making it easier on non-GMH to Custom Design, but that is entirely a different argument.

1) There needs to be a far wider array of craftable items.  Although I know that's a lot of work we have a lot of creative minds here.  A lot of people avoid that same obsidian snake bracelet or whatever we've seen three hundred thousand times even if the shop pays good money for them.  Why?  Because even if IG they're relatively impressive?  They're so overly saturated that OOC they are not.

We need craftable items that people will actually seek out crafters for.  ESPECIALLY if it isn't a given that crafters, characters completely devoted to crafting, wouldn't eventually have the sense to make something uniquely their own.  At present I can't think of a ton of things crafters are sought especially for, unless we get into the more criminal side of things.  Usually when it comes down to it if I can buy a moonstone thingy that I know comes from a pre-made crafting slot, or some Kadian thingabob with eighty wear locations and a page long desc --- sorry, I'm going with the Kadian thingy.

We need our crafters to be more desirable.  Part of a crafter BEING desirable was they could use their brains and craft.  A subguild and or karma point is too extreme and should not be needed.  It punishes an already very limited, vulnerable class.  But I digress and already said that.  There needs to be more fun craftable items out there that make people want to seek out crafters instead of what often actually happens and they avoid their mass made bone swords that someone who chose a weapon making subguild could choose.

So make a crafter, join a House or make a PC-ran clan to make things craftable. Or you can submit a Request Ticket to Staff with a list of goods that should be craftable and therein Staff can decide who amidst them has the time to make a Submissions call to make yet more objects craftable.

2) I really wish the Kadian shops had way more money and way more items, with less "copies" of those items.  I don't like seeing the same pre-made sets of roughly 20 - 30 items cycle through.  Then you have to seek out a Kadian, and they have to place an order and so on.  Yes.  Showings should be fun and a grand experience. Yes you should feel a certain need to still seek out Kadians.  I don't think that's going away in the face of parties and so on.   --- However, not all PCs have access to such, especially when a merchant is busy with nobles and Templars and things. 

I disagree with the shops having more money in all capacities. In truth, a Kadian should never agree to purchase lesser-made wares and peddle them off when they are selling the finest wares in the Known in terms of clothing and jewelry. The Kadian shops rotate and have for many years. If you want variety, seek a PC which encourages PC to PC interaction and RP.

You can't even pop over to Tuluk now to double your odds to find some rare thingy or show you went to Freil's and got something Nakki's can't get.  I really wish there were way more random items in the shop so peeking into them would feel more exciting, like you might actually find something good.  I also think there should be less of each item available.  Zalanthan shops should feel like you've got one or two choices of each hand made good.  It needs to feel less like Walmart --- like oh here we have THREE HUNDRED green cloaks in the back and if you don't get it this time?  Don't worry.  In about a RL month, you'll get the chance again.

I think every time the shops generate it should be 80 random things that may or may not have a single duplicate, and if you don't get it then you don't know if you'll see it in a RL year.  If you miss it?  Then go find the Kadian.

Again, I disagree with this and entirely encourage PCs to seek PC GMH sellers to assist. More interaction, less coded haggling, more RP.

Namino

  • Posts: 455
Hello. It is time for some data.

Mansa collected the number of crafting submissions for a period of time before and after the subguild custom crafting implementation. Here's what it looks like with just a trendline.



Notice the R squared value is .0061. That is very low. We then look at the same data if we break it up from before and after the change and produce two different trendlines and look to see if they are radically different from one another.



R squared of the before = .0373
R squared of the after = .1349
Average R squared = .0863

The average R squared of the independent trendlines is more than an order of magnitude greater than analyzing them together. I could do another analysis to see if that difference is statistically significant but I'm guessing just from eyeballing that a 13x time increase in correlation is going to be significant. However, there's more to explore here. Firstly, R squared can go to 1.0, so .0863 is very very low. Basically this tells us that while adding custom crafting changed the rate of submissions, there's a hell of a lot more driving the system than ONLY the subguild.

Before the change, the rate of custom crafting was declining very slowly. The slope of the line is negative.  After the change, there was an immediate shock -- the intercept is VASTLY reduced (-309 for after vs + 109 for before). People immediately stopped submitting, likely because they didn't have the subguild on legacy characters or some other reason I can't puzzle. However, custom submitting has been accelerating since then, and by now we're seeing as much or more than before. But again, because of R squared is so low, it's probably not due to the subguild. I suspect this has a lot more to do with the opening of the new Delf clan, to be honest. I suspect a lot of the custom crafts are coming from those players wanting unique gear to solidify their new clan.

So, in summary. Custom crafter changed the rate of submissions. A lot more is happening here than just the subguild. And since the original shock, it appears that custom crafting has recovered.

Thank you to Mansa, my co-author, for his invaluable data-collecting, an integral part of any data science analysis.

Citation:
Namino F. Playername and Mansa R. Pantsa. "Does Custom Crafting Suck Big Donky Dong? A Regression Analysis for a New Era of Armageddon. Tektolnes Journal of Statistics and Data Science. 2019. Publication Pending.

valeria

  • Posts: 5947
    • I have a writing page.
Artisan is a stupid class.  The whole class is crafting-focused and going by its name the character should be some kind of artisan, but unlike any other similar specifically focused class, you must pair it with exactly one subclass (custom crafter) for it to excel at its focus (crafting) in order to be the kind of person who designs items... aka an artisan.

*Edit to use proper terms.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 08:54:38 PM by valeria »
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Bebop

  • Posts: 3984
Artisan is a stupid class.  The whole class is crafting-focused and going by its name the character should be some kind of artisan, but unlike any other similar specifically focused class, you must pair it with exactly one subguild (mastercrafter) for it to excel at its focus (crafting) in order to be the kind of person who designs items... aka an artisan.

That's kind of what I was saying in a nutshell.

Have yet to read the other posts, lol.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
While I hardly ever play a crafter type character.  I do think having to have a MASTER subguild is silly for mastercrafting.  Just make it anyone who has master in a craft skill.  I think that's how it used to be.
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Riev

  • Posts: 5535
I have not experienced it currently, but it would be interesting information to see staff side, regarding how many people have picked heavy crafting classes WITH a custom-crafting subguild, vs those who just went for karma custom-crafting.

I only dislike the idea that magickers cannot custom-craft, in any way. But that seems like a fringe benefit.
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John

  • Posts: 4240
I don't mind the custom crafting rule. If you want more defensive options, play a Craftsperson. Not only do you get advanced weapon styles and journeyman weapon skills for all weapons skills (and let's face it, journeyman is close to where most weapon skills max out regardless), but you also get master in: armor making, bandagemaking, clothworking, dyeing, fletchery, knifemaking, lumberjacking, stonecrafting, toolmaking, woodworking, cooking, axe making, basketweaving, clayworking, club making, jewelrymaking, leatherworking, spearmaking, swordmaking, tanning, tentmaking.

That is a crapload of crafting skills. You are missing: bowmaking, featherworking, floristry, instrumentmaking and wagon making. If your concept critically requires one of those crafting skills, I'd suggest either making an Adventurer or stop trying to do literally everything.

If you want an armorer who can custom craft and hold his own in combat, you can make a raider (master armorsmith). If you want a crafter who can defend themselves a bit and custom craft a wide range of goods you can make a craftsperson or artisan and choose the custom crafter subclass.

Trying to do everthing at once on 1 character has been removed from the game which is why rangers got toned down ever so slightly. If you want to be able to go into the wilderness and be a master crafter at literally everything, work with some other PCs and get some bodyguards.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
I think one of the major problems is that there's very little incentive to go farther south than Laborer on the city-commoner column.

Laborer fights pretty damn well, and gets enough crafts to make a goddamn mint.
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teacup

  • Posts: 216
Quote from: Cerelum
While I hardly ever play a crafter type character.  I do think having to have a MASTER subguild is silly for mastercrafting.  Just make it anyone who has master in a craft skill.  I think that's how it used to be.

Nope, like you had to be guild Merchant or have the karma-required subguilds which weren't available to newbs with no karma, so like, having Custom Crafter lets us with 0 Karma actually get to have a guild with combat and some crafts and still Custom Craft. Its a much better system for 0 Karma players and especially newbs.

Quote from: Bebop
I'm curious what people's opinion's are on the current master craft set up.  After being back a little over a year now, I find it incredibly jarring that master craft requires either the use of a subguild or a karma point AND a subguild.

I'm like super into the present system. See response to Cerelum above for like why and stuff.

Quote from: Silksquad
That said, what I would like to see is that Kadius, Salarr, and Kurac be given further capabilities to get new into the world whether by way of ANY employee in the House given a Custom Craft slot, a Family Member being able to Custom without requiring the Sub Guild with or without karma, or those employed and Family therein get 2 slots per 30 days. I am not for making it easier on non-GMH to Custom Design, but that is entirely a different argument.

Yaaaas.

Quote from: Bebop
2) I really wish the Kadian shops had way more money and way more items, with less "copies" of those items.  I don't like seeing the same pre-made sets of roughly 20 - 30 items cycle through.  Then you have to seek out a Kadian, and they have to place an order and so on.  Yes.  Showings should be fun and a grand experience. Yes you should feel a certain need to still seek out Kadians.  I don't think that's going away in the face of parties and so on.   --- However, not all PCs have access to such, especially when a merchant is busy with nobles and Templars and things. 

Like, nope. I don't agree with this. Like Kadius shouldn't be buying and selling stuff not made by someone with lesser quality goods. Kadius shouldn't be a source of a bunch of coin for your character unless you're in Kadius and you're selling Kadian goods. Leave word on rumor boards, use an Aide, use an assistant, pay some random PC to go find some Kadian and make the order, encourage like interaction and RP so the world lives and breathes. There's a ton of like opportunities and stuff in this without just having all the stuff you personally want available without dealing with another PC or just using those NPCs to make gobs of coin, instead you could be selling or trading to another PC. PC + PC = Interaction.

Quote from: Bebop
You can't even pop over to Tuluk now to double your odds to find some rare thingy or show you went to Freil's and got something Nakki's can't get.  I really wish there were way more random items in the shop so peeking into them would feel more exciting, like you might actually find something good.  I also think there should be less of each item available.  Zalanthan shops should feel like you've got one or two choices of each hand made good.  It needs to feel less like Walmart --- like oh here we have THREE HUNDRED green cloaks in the back and if you don't get it this time?  Don't worry.  In about a RL month, you'll get the chance again.

I think every time the shops generate it should be 80 random things that may or may not have a single duplicate, and if you don't get it then you don't know if you'll see it in a RL year.  If you miss it?  Then go find the Kadian.

Again, nope. Like, that's taking away interaction opportunities. The rotation is to show a taste, like these are possibilities for your wardrobe. These are what's fashionable, maybe not the like immediate trend but like you're going to look great still.

It's not realistic to have everything you want available like this just so it can like be haggled down with code nor is it like realistic to sell a bunch of things to Kadius NPCs and expect a bunch of coin on hand.

deskoft

  • Helper
  • Posts: 421
There's also the veeery big reason that mastercrafts are extremely tolling on staff to handle if they start coming en-masse. Considering the many requests the playerbase tends to have towards staff (not enough animations, inconsistency in rotations, etc), I'd rather them have the tools to focus on these aspects than to spend their days solving mastercrafting requests. I think in the current arrangement it's possible, but it's also not something everyone is doing.

Other games allow people to mastercraft at will! Yep, and other games don't have the thematic consistency that Armageddon has. The sole reason staff has to approve crafts is so that people like me, who preferred the game's crafting system over others because we don't have unrealistic items, continue to have this perceived benefit.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9813
I don't see the downside to letting -at least- artisans, dune traders, and fences mastercraft by default.

I mean, honestly...how many people are rolling bottom-tier PCs anyway?  It's not like everyone is suddenly going to jump on board like...oh, I can pick artisan/swordsman to fight AND mastercraft! Yeah!

Not. Gonna. Happen.
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sleepyhead

  • Posts: 576
I just want there to be a way for magickers to custom craft. Make an opening for that and I'll be happy.

Eyeball

  • Posts: 1101
Trying to do everthing at once on 1 character has been removed from the game which is why rangers got toned down ever so slightly.

Forced interaction through dependency. An extrovert's dream, an introvert's nightmare.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 06:09:46 PM by Eyeball »

John

  • Posts: 4240
Trying to do everthing at once on 1 character has been removed from the game which is why rangers got toned down ever so slightly.

Forced interaction through dependency. An extrovert's dream, an introvert's nightmare.
Forced interaction ONLY IF your concept requires you to be able to do literally everything. Choosing an Adventurer or Craftsperson will get you enough combat to be able to protect yourself.

valeria

  • Posts: 5947
    • I have a writing page.
Respectfully, the 'forced interaction' argument seems like a red herring with the current class system.  There are a million ways to avoid forced interaction with combat or thief types and the vast majority of crafting.

More importantly, with any other class, combat focused, stealth focused, wilderness, city, you name it, there is a class capable of being good at it without any mandatory subguild selection.  A raider can raid.  You can round out your raider by adding some crafting skills, or some city stealth skills.  A miscreant can get up to no good all on its own.  You can round out your miscreant by adding crafting skills or combat skills.  A fighter can fight, a scout can scout.  Artisans are the only class that does not function as advertised.  You can't excel at what is expected of an artisan (employment by a merchant house, having artisanal talent), with the base class alone.

I really don't care about adding custom crafting to dune traders or fences.  I wouldn't be opposed but I'm not really pushing for it either, because in looking at the skill trees for both of those classes, they both are capable of working as advertised on the label without adding any other specific subclass.  Artisan is the odd man out in the sense of not being able to do what its label or flavor text says it should be able to do.
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Lizzie

  • Posts: 7990
Maybe if Artisan were able to mastercraft one or two "craft types" and the selection would occur when the first one was submitted. So, if you know 8 crafts at master level, you can submit an app for one of them. That would be one of your two, and at that point you'd select which craft you want your second to be. From that point on, you can submit master craft custom items using either of those two craft types. Jewelry and armorsmithing. Or armor and leatherwork. Or clothing and bowmaking. Etc. etc.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

John

  • Posts: 4240
Maybe if Artisan were able to mastercraft one or two "craft types" and the selection would occur when the first one was submitted. So, if you know 8 crafts at master level, you can submit an app for one of them. That would be one of your two, and at that point you'd select which craft you want your second to be. From that point on, you can submit master craft custom items using either of those two craft types. Jewelry and armorsmithing. Or armor and leatherwork. Or clothing and bowmaking. Etc. etc.
I would very much be opposed to this if it came at the expense of the custom crafter subclass.

X-D

  • Posts: 5658
There should be a main class that can custom craft. I don't even have a dog in this race and think that.

A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
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solera

  • Posts: 1783
The custom crafting subclass should be an option for those master crafters who aren't an artisan. Artisans should have it as part of their class package.
Ideally, all high level crafters should stick to their knitting.... martial, fashion, alchemical etc, but that is another issue, even if it may relevant to "too many MCs in the works".
I feel for those who at a later stage in their PC's life, join a GM, yet under the present system can't deliver the real goods.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7990
Maybe if Artisan were able to mastercraft one or two "craft types" and the selection would occur when the first one was submitted. So, if you know 8 crafts at master level, you can submit an app for one of them. That would be one of your two, and at that point you'd select which craft you want your second to be. From that point on, you can submit master craft custom items using either of those two craft types. Jewelry and armorsmithing. Or armor and leatherwork. Or clothing and bowmaking. Etc. etc.
I would very much be opposed to this if it came at the expense of the custom crafter subclass.

I never even considered that it'd be "at the expense" of anything at all. The artisan class should be able to mastercraft something. I don't think it's necessary to be able to mastercraft every craft they get, but they are the masters at crafting afterall. As the masters of crafting, they should automatically come with the ability to specialize, without having to use a subclass to do it. The specialization, would be the ability to submit custom craft items in one, or two specific craft skills, once those skills are mastered.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Riev

  • Posts: 5535
There's also the veeery big reason that mastercrafts are extremely tolling on staff to handle if they start coming en-masse. Considering the many requests the playerbase tends to have towards staff (not enough animations, inconsistency in rotations, etc), I'd rather them have the tools to focus on these aspects than to spend their days solving mastercrafting requests. I think in the current arrangement it's possible, but it's also not something everyone is doing.

I wanted to touch on this because of its content.

Brokkr said, at one point, that this was much less "staff time" as it was "keeping the custom crafting in line with the world". There are relatively simple tools on the staff side (once things are approved) to put these objects in the game. That's why we have templates, and talk about it for a RL month before it even gets approved.

If I don't get to say its "easy to do" because I don't know the code, you don't get to say "Its probably too hard to do this so I'd rather they do something else."
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Heade

  • Posts: 764
I've been beating this drum for a long time now. Yes, it's stupid that heavy crafting main guilds don't get custom crafting built-in. No other main guild in the game has their utility gimped in such a way as to require them to take a subguild that does nothing but give them an ability they should already have.

Currently, extended subguild X crafters are better at "crafting" in their domain than dedicated full-time main guild crafters.

Yes, it's stupid and arbitrary. It has been since implementation. But I've seen tons of people complain about it, and it's something staff could quickly and easily alter without much effort, so I suspect current staff doesn't want it changed, despite the absurdity of it. So it will likely stay as is as long as our current staff does.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 11:24:08 PM by Heade »
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

triste

  • Posts: 58
Just want to echo the sentiment that not getting custom crafting built in for guilds that are crafting focused hurts.
Everything human is pathetic. The secret source of humor itself is not joy but sorrow. There is no humor in heaven. ~ Mark Twain

Bigbruiser

  • Posts: 16
Crafters should get skinning even if it is JM and risks breaking that pile of bones.. I can master craft fucking epic bone daggers but I can't break apart a pile of bones?

Raptor_Dan

  • Posts: 338
Ok, this is what I want to happen.

1. All clans get one item per month Custom Crafted. This is a stand-alone addition, meaning regardless of current PC classes or subclasses, the highest ranking person in a clan can send in a Custom Craft request, hereafter referred to as CCR. This gives all clans a chance at survival, regardless of PB distribution.

2. Submissions for CCRs become the responsibility of those in charge of them. Indie CCR, it goes to staff. Clanned CCR request? It goes to leadership of the clan. This would necessitate changes to the request system that would make clan leadership responsible for keeping items thematically in-line with the game. This particular wish is highly unlikely.

3. Artisan gets custom crafting ability. They choose one craft. Those with one karma can choose two. Two karma can choose three, three karma can choose four. You still can't do /everything/. Maybe the karma part is not a good idea, but artisan getting one custom craft that they pick is. As a sadist (and maybe a narcissist, I'm looking into that) Maybe it should be random.

Yep. Just off the top of my head. I dunno.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 10:42:59 PM by Raptor_Dan »
I'm just looking for a general consensus. Or Moe's opinion. Either one generally can be accepted as canon.

Cabooze

  • Posts: 301
3. Artisan gets custom crafting ability. They choose one craft. Those with one karma can choose two. Two karma can choose three, three karma can choose four. You still can't do /everything/. Maybe the karma part is not a good idea, but artisan getting one custom craft that they pick is. As a sadist (and maybe a narcissist, I'm looking into that) Maybe it should be random.

Artisans should get custom-craft on anything they can craft. The class isn't useful for anything other than crafting.

In fact, they are less useful all-around than the original Merchant guild and similar mercantile classes, both in regards to combat ability and crafting ability.. There's actually nothing that 'Artisan' has going for it that you can't get from what is basically its upgrade, 'Dune Trader' - except for wagon-making (which... you know. you can't even make those, anyway), Cavilish, and the lack of the bludgeoning weapon skill.

LauraMars

  • Helper
  • Posts: 9383
It seems like the original post wants:

A) The ability to do custom crafts more easily

and

B) More and fancier items to show up in game.

I have no real opinion on A, having never played a custom crafter of any kind before the changes or since.

But for B - Based on my experience, there are ALREADY many many cool things in the game database. Armageddon's item database is the text game equivalent of a Cave of Wonders buried beneath the sand.  There are only so many ways to get this stuff out to you, the players. In the past (I don't know if they still do this), staff would load things up for merchant house family to do fancy auctions and things with, and occasionally they'll show up in plots or someone will get a bug in their ear and manually rotate shop stock. But there's never been a really good, easy, automated way to cycle through the vast quantities of amazing shit that's been dreamed up by hundreds of people over the past 25 years, and get it in front of your eyeballs.

And that's too bad because I think that that would be super cool.
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A voice whispers, "Read the tales upon the walls."

Raptor_Dan

  • Posts: 338
Now I want Artisan to get reverse crafting recipe power. The thing were you have one item, and you 'craft item', and get a list of things you could craft with it if you had X items to work with.

I think that'd be a pretty good way to make all the cool crafts more accessible, and make Artisans more badass.
I'm just looking for a general consensus. Or Moe's opinion. Either one generally can be accepted as canon.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1060
Unfortunately, there is and always will be a desire for 'Cool Custom Shit'. People can easily say 'Get me the coolest ring you got' or 'Get me the fanciest blade you got', but 9/10, people will want to get a unique, new item that is FrEsH and eLiTe.

I honestly think that GMH should just have a 'Custom Order NPC' that takes orders for people at a public place, tells people when they are full up, what the costs/turnaround will be, or something like that. It ends up being a huge time suck for GMH in general from what I've seen, at the sake of actual plots of substance.

Most of the onus is on leadership PCs and Staff to make the crafts happen, they end up taking a while, people get pissed when they have to wait around for them, and it leads to drama/never ordering from House X again because they took too long, ad nauseam. I've seen it for the past good long while in the game as a persistent thread. And while it does make for shaking things up a bit, and IC should be kept IC, it sucks that at least half of the system and its tardiness is assuredly OOC and just based around people got lives and shit to do, and requests take up to 30 days to complete for master-craft items.

Anyways, yeah, I don't really like custom crafts. I like that Custom Crafters can make anything 'up to their level in skill', as it provides more capability to make every day items that people use, rather than the Elite Sword of Slicing +4.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

kahuna

  • Posts: 122
To make custom crafting a bit more accessible I think the object creation process should be more automated. What I mean by this is after staff simply click an 'approve' button in the web interface what was written in the request gets automatically sent into the game and created. Instead I am sure that the old diku OLC is used. You have commands that you have to use to create objects/rooms such as oset <vnum> <options> <input>, this is tedious and that is why custom crafting takes a while.

More automation is the only thing I can contribute to this thread.

Heade

  • Posts: 764
They should just reverse the situation now with custom crafting. Instead of custom crafting being tied to a subguild, they should give it to all of the heavy merchantile classes and take it away from the subguilds completely. Here is the justification as to why:

Originally, custom crafting was the sole purview of the merchant class, and sort of became their defining feature. It's what separated the full time merchant from the moonlighter. Later, when ESGs were added, they were given the ability to custom craft primarily as a means to help avoid guild-sniffing, so that someone could pretend to be a full time merchant, but really have a different primary guild. Back then, it was pretty normal for even full merchants to adopt a specialty/title like master Jeweler or Armor crafter, despite having the coded ability to make just about anything, and so having an ESG that gave master level crafting skill and the ability to custom craft allowed one to pretty successfully masquerade as a fulltime merchant character.

Fast forward to the latest change, which shook up all the old guilds and tied custom crafting to subguilds. The rationale behind it was likely twofold:

1. Staff had too many custom crafting requests, and wanted to reduce their monthly workload.
2. There were likely more people that would be effected by taking custom crafting away from crafting ESGs than by taking it away from the heavy merchantile classes.

While, on the surface, this seems to support the decision that ultimately transpired, it completely ignores the fact that custom crafting had become a defining feature of the core "merchant" characters. Furthermore, I contend that from an RP perspective, heavy merchantile classes without the ability to custom craft are hurt more by this change than would be true of the master crafting ESGs.

Personally, I think they should both have custom crafting available to them. If staff workload for custom items is too high, I think the answer is more staff. But if it has to be one or the other, I think it's a no brainer that the heavy merchantile classes should get custom crafting over the subguilds. Subguilds shouldn't outshine the core classes. That is something that Brokkr stated was part of his mission statement with the change to classes in the game, and in this one case, that simply isn't true. Crafting ESGs are currently better than the heavy merchantile classes, because they don't have to take 2 classes just to fully perform their craft.

I've been on a hiatus from the game, due in no small part to this particular issue. Since I really enjoy playing heavy merchantile characters, but don't enjoy it under the current system, my ideas for characters is stymied. I'd never play a heavy merchantile character without custom crafting, but playing one with custom crafting means I'm severely limited in concepts because I won't have a subguild.
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Riev

  • Posts: 5535


Fast forward to the latest change, which shook up all the old guilds and tied custom crafting to subguilds. The rationale behind it was likely twofold:

1. Staff had too many custom crafting requests, and wanted to reduce their monthly workload.
2. There were likely more people that would be effected by taking custom crafting away from crafting ESGs than by taking it away from the heavy merchantile classes.


It has been mentioned before that the reason for this was NOT because there are too many requests, but the requests were often all of "master" quality, with brilliant azure gem-studded finger claws, and not enough custom-crafted low-tier "fancy cloth pants tailored to what someone requested". By limiting the number of people requesting, it allows for more conversation and, with ESGs, more of a "trust" that a first-time player isn't going to sit behind their locked doors and create masterwork diamond studded longswords.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1060
The problem with the current system (one of a few) is that there are simply fewer 'master crafters' to go around. So custom/master crafts get bogged down or disappear entirely when a crafter in a GMH ups and stores, delaying the entire pipeline for another month or two.

I don't think a GMH's majority of plot lines should revolve around 'where is X master craft I ordered' and the fallout surrounding OOC time constraints (Can only file a master craft every 30 days). At a given time, there might be 2, or just 1, PC that can handle XYZ Master Crafts. God forbid they have a life and don't play the game 24/7, or have old master-crafts to get through.

This would be alleviated entirely if Leaders in GMH (Overseer/Crew Leader/Apprentice Agent+) could file 1 or 2 Mastercraft Requests themselves per month. They would virtually be working with the hundreds of crafters and master crafters on staff to fulfill requests. It would be further proof that joining a GMH and working with a GMH is far superior to working with independents. It would also account for the lean times, when there are sometimes 0 Crafters of talent who can fulfill custom requests, or 0 available.

More than this -- The Zeitgeist of the game seems to surround 'Noble/Templar Soandso wants to order a design they dreamed up', instead of 'House Kadius/Salarr/Kurac has a brand new design they want to sell Noble/Templar on'. Why would Nobles/Templars know better than these premier GMH about their own product, and design things for them? Of course, they are inherently better than by birth, but are they suddenly weapon designers, jewelry designers, and clothing designers all at the same time?

I truly wish the Zeitgeist was put more into GMH's decision making, rather than reacting, creating something people are inevitably mildly disappointed with, and wasting another month of RL time. It's truly a burnout to be a Custom Vending Machine That Never Seems To Please.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

lostinspace

  • Posts: 709
Later, when ESGs were added, they were given the ability to custom craft primarily as a means to help avoid guild-sniffing, so that someone could pretend to be a full time merchant, but really have a different primary guild.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, with the moving of custom crafting and magick to subguilds, you now can't custom craft on any witches. What's that, you wanted to custom craft a cool gnarled staff to walk around with? Too bad, you lost your creative design skills when you started throwing around boulders.
3/21/16 Never Forget

kahuna

  • Posts: 122
Later, when ESGs were added, they were given the ability to custom craft primarily as a means to help avoid guild-sniffing, so that someone could pretend to be a full time merchant, but really have a different primary guild.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, with the moving of custom crafting and magick to subguilds, you now can't custom craft on any witches. What's that, you wanted to custom craft a cool gnarled staff to walk around with? Too bad, you lost your creative design skills when you started throwing around boulders.

I think a staff would fall under bludgeoning weapons or tool making? So a magicker wouldn't be able to do it anyways they'd need to have a subguild toolmaking/staff making. Also the custom crafting help file clearly states that magickal components aren't allowed:

Quote
with the exception of brewed cures and poisons, magickal components, lumberjacking, wagonmaking, armor repair, perfumes and liquid types (e.g. teas, alcohols, etc.)

lostinspace

  • Posts: 709
I know. Mages can't custom craft ANYTHING, because there is no combination of class/subclass currently that lets them pick both a mage subguilds and a custom crafting subguilds.


So even if that mage had club making at master, they won't be making a custom club to use for themselves.

Also, if you see a character custom craft, you know they aren't a mage, barring legacy merchants or witch full guilds.
3/21/16 Never Forget


Veselka

  • Posts: 1060
Thank you. This creates more options for custom-crafting PCs, which hopefully will lead to more of those PCs being available and employed by GMH (or independent and making their own private Idaho).
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

valeria

  • Posts: 5947
    • I have a writing page.
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JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 166
Edited cuz everyone else said it first.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 07:07:03 PM by JohnMichaelHenry »
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Michael Scott, The Warlock

Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 828
We have been looking at whether to do a change or not since May.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2818
Finally users of Magick are capable of doing the most secret of art:

Custom crafting.

Harmless

  • Posts: 2797
Fantastic change, thank you guys so much. I miss my fence PC now (whereas before all I thought was, "Why didn't I choose custom crafter with that fence..)
Useful tips: Commands |  |Storytelling:  1  2

Nao

  • Posts: 1996


This is great!
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Someone says, out of character:
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Heade

  • Posts: 764
Thank you for this change, Brokkr and staff! It's much appreciated by those of us who enjoy crafters!

So many more options for character concepts now. My head is swimming with ideas. :D
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 01:48:47 PM by Heade »
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.

Bebop

  • Posts: 3984
Wewt! 😀

Barsook

  • Posts: 7972
    • The Sense of Openness
Awesome! Thank you staff!

Heade

  • Posts: 764
It's a shame that this announcement came after two different roles I would have apped for had it come earlier, but I'm glad the change has come nonetheless. I'll be keeping my eyes open for role calls in the future!
I used to have a funny signature, but I felt like no one took me seriously, so it's time to put on my serious face.