Author Topic: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul  (Read 2351 times)

Veselka

  • Posts: 1111
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2019, 12:27:09 AM »
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Doublepalli

  • Posts: 300
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2019, 02:03:28 AM »
It's not. With the right PC IG it can make a world of difference. Also a super high bounty gets anyone dead.



And I want to point out, what's changed? You can't scan a miscreant, big whoop?

Did we forget burglars existed? The old Ranger vs assassin? Any of that?

If you want balance, then the classes themselves need to be revamped, because there are several more game breaking than somebody who can emote giggle and remain hidden.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 02:05:41 AM by Doublepalli »

Qzzrbl

  • Posts: 4959
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2019, 06:39:47 AM »
It's not. With the right PC IG it can make a world of difference. Also a super high bounty gets anyone dead.

To an extent, sure, but that's not what this thread is about.

If you could stop trying to railroad the discussion away from the ideas presented, that would be great.

And I want to point out, what's changed?

Nothing, the way upper-level stealth works has never not been kinda silly. This is not a new discussion.

You can't scan a miscreant, big whoop?

Some of the proposed changes will make it a little harder for a sneak to wind up in immersion-breaking scenarios  that defies all logic like they currently can, big whoop.

Did we forget burglars existed?

The old Ranger vs assassin? Any of that?

No, but that's still pretty irrelevant to the topic at hand.

If you want balance, then the classes themselves need to be revamped

This is more about immersion and realism than some notion of "mechanical checks and balances" that Arm has pretty much never adhered to in the first place.

because there are several more game breaking than somebody who can emote giggle and remain hidden.

You are absolutely free to start a thread discussing what you find to be game-breaking elsewhere, if you have the inclination.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 06:53:38 AM by Qzzrbl »

Doublepalli

  • Posts: 300
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2019, 08:20:31 AM »
Alright. I'll /bite/.

Making stealth more realistic out of all the other nonrealistic things in arm.

Ill go devils advocate first and ask - Why wouldn't someone with master hide be nothing short of a ghost anyways? If someone has mastered batman level sneaking, realistically they'd be moving through a crowd or what have you to remain hidden at all costs. There's already penalties in place for stealthies in places with no crowds, hallways, apartments, etc. We have no hide rooms which is sometimes not always apparent to the stealthy. If you feel like you're being shadowed you can always start running. Or climbing if thats your thing.

So beyond that - how would we make stealth even harder for stealthies and more realistic?

The command suggested with the RL min delay, being visible to the room/a room away is a nice thought, but what happens when you happen to just walk in on the end of saidd command and get revealed? When every PC that walks into wherever uses the command. Walking in and out and in and out and in and out will become very tedious, very quickly. Maybe a room-wide timer after the command is used before anyone else can use it in said room again.

Apartment shadowing will never happen beyond finding where someone lives and entering with the pure intention to murder them the second they enter because they'll be using that command immediately upon entry. Probably leave the door unlocked till the search finishes too so they can spam run away.

Im all for the command as long as there is some check where the command rolls against those who've achieved master stealth. Whats the odds of spotting them anyway? The command makes scan pointless beyond spotting hidden critters.

Hiding underneath someones bed in an apartment has always been iffy to me, but everything else already seems pretty realistic. If you have city hunt you can always use that to deduce you're being followed.

It would be cool if a PC was a victim of a steal roll while somebody was hidden, a debuff would be added that is stackable to said theif trying to steal from them again. A PC would be more alert after being robbed or almost no?

« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 08:22:33 AM by Doublepalli »

LindseyBalboa

  • Posts: 92
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2019, 08:22:02 AM »
Make things better and more fun for stealth characters, not harder. That should be the criteria for suggestions that overhaul an entire class or classes, instead of adding a billion more hurdles for like 3 classes.

I also don't really see why not being able to see someone who is hiding in a room as "immersion breaking" but I have noticed that the term is used as a dog whistle on the forum where it really means a player wants an advantage in game. This is a desert world where there are elves and sorcerers and some people are just better at hiding than you are at finding; and that's the realism of this game. They're probably moving around the room out of your point of view and unfortunately your character just isn't perceptive enough to spot them.

Qzzrbl

  • Posts: 4959
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2019, 10:06:18 AM »
Alright. I'll /bite/.

Making stealth more realistic out of all the other nonrealistic things in arm.

Ill go devils advocate first and ask - Why wouldn't someone with master hide be nothing short of a ghost anyways? If someone has mastered batman level sneaking, realistically they'd be moving through a crowd or what have you to remain hidden at all costs. There's already penalties in place for stealthies in places with no crowds, hallways, apartments, etc. We have no hide rooms which is sometimes not always apparent to the stealthy. If you feel like you're being shadowed you can always start running. Or climbing if thats your thing.

So, if you're sneaking through a crowd, you're moving. Meaning you wouldn't really be subject to a room search check anyway so that's sort of a moot point, if the room search could even be used in a crowded area to begin with. Which I kinda think it shouldn't tbh.

If you feel like you're being shadowed you can always start running. Or climbing if thats your thing.

So, to you, it makes sense to break into a sprint or look for the nearest ledge to scramble up, but it doesn't make sense to try and find whoever/whatever you think is following you?

 ???


So beyond that - how would we make stealth even harder for stealthies and more realistic?

The command suggested with the RL min delay, being visible to the room/a room away is a nice thought, but what happens when you happen to just walk in on the end of saidd command and get revealed?

idk, the discussion has been bogged down by doom and gloom about how these suggestions would 100% destroy stealth for it to even come up.

This thought should be talked about.

When every PC that walks into wherever uses the command. Walking in and out and in and out and in and out will become very tedious, very quickly. Maybe a room-wide timer after the command is used before anyone else can use it in said room again.

Or, better yet, a stamina cost associated with its use, if a long before/after delay leaving a searcher vulnerable wouldn't be seen as enough to keep spamming it to a minimum.

Apartment shadowing will never happen beyond finding where someone lives and entering with the pure intention to murder them the second they enter because they'll be using that command immediately upon entry. Probably leave the door unlocked till the search finishes too so they can spam run away.

I'm of the mind that apartments should offer some measure of security, and that sneaking in behind someone through a door that they open/close is kinda silly in the first place, so I don't have much to say on this. Even Batman would have a lot of trouble pulling that off.

Im all for the command as long as there is some check where the command rolls against those who've achieved master stealth. Whats the odds of spotting them anyway? The command makes scan pointless beyond spotting hidden critters.

idk, I think being good at being sneaky should involve more than having (master) in your skill list. If you goof and get cornered in a room you can't get out of, you should be able to be found.

Scan would still be much faster and much more discreet. I don't really see its use being devalued if a room search is added.

I also don't really see why not being able to see someone who is hiding in a room as "immersion breaking"

That's not the immersion-breaking part.

The immersion-breaking part is seeing "a strange shadow" every time you type look, and being 100% unable to investigate further because "look shadow" lands a "you don't see that here".

Or the failed pickpocket attempt in an empty alleyway that again, you are unable to do anything about. Bonus points if the failed steal attempt is followed up with -another- failed steal attempt.

Or getting blowgun'd in front of all of your friends, but dammit nobody has scan high enough guess there will just be no recourse.

 
but I have noticed that the term is used as a dog whistle on the forum where it really means a player wants an advantage in game.

Try not to cast too wide a net with that assumption.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 02:41:53 PM by Qzzrbl »

Mercy

  • Posts: 115
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2019, 12:44:44 PM »
I honestly am getting to the point I don't want to post in this thread anymore. If you dislike the merits of an idea, can you please try to offer constructive criticism rather than attacking the potential motivation of the person(s) behind the idea itself? Constantly complaining that people are mad they can't be overpowered in the way they want, or are seeking an extra advantage helps nothing.

Make things better and more fun for stealth characters, not harder. That should be the criteria for suggestions that overhaul an entire class or classes, instead of adding a billion more hurdles for like 3 classes.

Can you explain what that would even look like? What about stealth is bad and unfun for stealth characters? I'm 100% serious here. Because the only issue that comes to mind for me personally, is the inconsistent nature of sneak-in-progress and no sort of indicator that you're definitely fucking up (which I spoke on initially in terms of trying to make sneak/hide more consistent with static flat values, and the same for scan so if you are hidden you don't get revealed by someone spamming an input likewise if you are detected you don't just randomly vanish without doing anything). I think stealth can be a little unforgiving in the sense of letting you know you're being obviously bad or are in obviously bad conditions for it. I have oodles of thoughts on this, but I'd rather keep the changes small so they can be felt out by both staff and playerbase rather than making huge sweeping changes.

Additionally, I'm not really concerned with 'immersion' here. It's such a subjective word to begin with I don't want to get into it. My issue is meaningful counterplay. I don't want things to be balanced per se. But if you KNOW something is taking place, or is going to take place, you should have a meaningful way to prepare yourself. That doesn't mean you will succeed even with impeccable planning, but you should be able to give yourself a better chance. This also means people can plan for you planning, and so on. If you know someone is going to break into your apartment, your only solution shouldn't be find a PC who can see them and then lock the door when they enter for a good ol' fashioned locked room PK.

Personally, I think a slow room search command also adds the opportunity for RP as it gives you notification and time to think of something to do/say other than flee/kill. From my perspective if you don't jump me in that duration AND you don't leave, then you're at least willing to try and RP. I'm addicted to RP so I'd really like more opportunities to indicate a willingness to RP in potentially deadly situations. I really don't know how other people would view this though.

The command suggested with the RL min delay, being visible to the room/a room away is a nice thought, but what happens when you happen to just walk in on the end of saidd command and get revealed? When every PC that walks into wherever uses the command. Walking in and out and in and out and in and out will become very tedious, very quickly. Maybe a room-wide timer after the command is used before anyone else can use it in said room again.

One solution to this is just to tag everyone in the room when the commands starts. So anyone who enters after the fact cannot be revealed by it. You raise a very good point here though. I don't like the idea of a room-wide timer before anyone can use the command again. But imposing a delay on whoever used the command, in terms of reusing, could have some merit. It feels very awkward to me though, as I don't know any other command that operates that way off the top of my head and this also opens up room for "Oh they're searching, I'll come back in a minute then they can't do anything even if they notice me somehow."

kahuna

  • Posts: 203
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2019, 02:37:37 PM »
Rooms that have no where to hide need to break hide. That's all I have to add to this thread. It's way too unrealistic. Stealth based characters have -plenty- of opportunities to take advantage of being near impossible to see. If you're shadowing someone into their apartment that's your fault, I would totally support being crimflagged for such actions.

Let's imagine what shadowing actually is, you're following a person without their knowledge, whether its in the shadows or a slight distance, it should be impossible to shadow into certain areas of the game and that needs to be reflected or a number of reasons:
-Realism. This is something we all pride ourselves on in this game right? We want the world to feel realistic.
-Balance. Stealth based characters have had a big advantage for a while now. There's a reason Stalker is BY FAR the number one class in the game (Shabago posted the stats in another thread).

So a room-flag that breaks your hide and if you're shadowing crimflags you is what I'd like to see. Shadowing people into their apartments should be a criminal offense if someone notices and alerts the guards. They have nothing better to do but arrest your ass for any reason so why not this one as well?

kahuna

  • Posts: 203
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2019, 02:40:43 PM »
I'll add one more thing.. I don't think compounds should be impossible fortresses either. So while shadowing someone into a compound is possible now, I think every compound should have ways inside, whether it's climb rooms or air rooms. It's unfortunate that many of the compounds we see there is only one way in and out (codedly) linked into the game and that's the gate. It's unrealistic and should be fixed.

Dar

  • Posts: 1526
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2019, 02:40:58 PM »
I would support a complete overhaul of stealth and stealth related activities. But a "complete" overhaul. If you do it piecemeal, you'll be causing damage. In my opinion.

kahuna

  • Posts: 203
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2019, 02:50:31 PM »
I would support a complete overhaul of stealth and stealth related activities. But a "complete" overhaul. If you do it piecemeal, you'll be causing damage. In my opinion.

Why and how would you be causing damage? Specifics would be nice.

Dar

  • Posts: 1526
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2019, 03:59:53 PM »
being able to shadow through the door = bad
Being unable to shadow someone into compounds and making compounds impregnable = bad.
Giving a command that negates stealth at no cost = bad
Removing the strength that the entire guild is focused around = bad
Having a near magickal ability to stealth = bad.

People who like fighters want stealth nerfed.
People who like stealth doesnt want to be invalidated.


Doing piecemeal adjustments will swing the pendulum every which way, causing uproar from either one side, or another.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6213
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2019, 04:35:03 PM »
being able to shadow through the door = bad
Being unable to shadow someone into compounds and making compounds impregnable = bad.
Giving a command that negates stealth at no cost = bad
Removing the strength that the entire guild is focused around = bad
Having a near magickal ability to stealth = bad.

People who like fighters want stealth nerfed.
People who like stealth doesnt want to be invalidated.


Doing piecemeal adjustments will swing the pendulum every which way, causing uproar from either one side, or another.

Early on in the thread there were actually pretty good ideas about how to move that pendulum in ways that didn't invalidate things.  I think the apartment stealthing side of things kind of swung things out of perspective and into emotional territory, even though it was addressed in some of those ideas.

Quote
If you dislike the merits of an idea, can you please try to offer constructive criticism rather than attacking the potential motivation of the person(s) behind the idea itself?

I think this starts happening because there are assumptions made first about the people using stealth and putting it in line of 'What -possible- justification do you have?  If you have one, you're a shitlord.'  That's paraphrased, of course.  Again, constructive ideas were placed in the first couple pages, I like some of them.

Stealth is one of those areas of mechanics where things can be wonky, but it's often used to fight against or protect against other wonky mechanics of the game.  There's a huge grey area of interpretation involved that say 'Well I can't climb over these walls, I'll just pretend that I am as I shadow this person in' or something like that.  Not all of these will be 100% approved by all players, but there has to be some degree of self-reliance on things that can be done without assistance, tempered by some degree of self-awareness of how far the interpretation pushes it.

I, for one, do not think it's impossible to shadow someone through a hallway, but it is nigh-impossible to squeeze into their apartment behind them without them noticing.  Improbable for the former, given some of these hallways, but that was why I liked there being some sort of follow distance involved.

I also think it's important to note that the class overhaul removed master stealth from -most- people.  This is a shallow thing to say since I'm not fully in tune with how subs are contributing and such, but I did complain about how the stealthiest class was also the only class with the ability to have a chance of scanning itself out, realistically speaking.  I think that was odd.  But non-master scan should, in theory, be more useful than it once was.

Edit:  Also, I think it's likely that an all around uncovering of all stealth things would probably become a routine use of everyone which would be kinda weird unless we make for a world where that's actually a rational action, and not just a protection against personal character loss.  Some apartments are pretty damn secure, from a long-lived burglar perspective, unless you take some serious efforts to justify bypassing the security.  We have apartment complexes with guarded gates and hallways.  If something like that went in, yes, there should be some sort of significant drawback other than a lengthy delay, or our next complaint is going to be 'They just backstabbed me with no rp while I was in the process of spotting them.'
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 04:38:53 PM by Armaddict »
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Bogre

  • Posts: 3313
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2019, 05:54:57 PM »
Just as some food for thought ideas I'll post. I'm not advocating for the nerfing of stealth characters abilities, who can already be hard pressed into character-ending discovery super easily.  Presumeably, any changes would actually offer them some benefits if it's going to be limiting their supreme ghostliness. And remember - people who achieve crazy high levels of stealth skills have given up something to do it, since a lot of the tier 1/2 classes can't max those skills, and would have put in significant time training it up.


> The way another RPI did it was to have 'hide' status visible to the player. It was pretty easy to hide; even unskilled characters could secrete themselves with some success with time. But they wouldn't be able to ghost around everywhere without some sneak ability. And their hide skill would directly oppose passive and active searching. Characters with massive stealth could often just ghost through a couple people searching a room, and even lower skilled characters were pretty skulky unless someone was actively searching them out. Often those folks searching would be overconfident that they weren't being spooked on, if they missed seeing a hidden person.

The benefit to seekers here would be an active thing, to maybe search a room and gain some bonus to spotting hidden folks. The downsides ? Delay, decreased ability to spot other stealth skills or people, and a distraction from general awareness. The benefit for sneakies: hide not being an inscrutable binary check, but a gradient that's more intuitive. Advanced/master hiders should still be really hard to find.

I don't know if the above would work in Arm, but it seems like main complaints over stealth is that its highly risky/dangerous to do stealthy stuff up until the point of achieving total ghost status.
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Hauwke

  • Posts: 1975
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2019, 06:15:52 PM »
It has recently come to my attention that this is a thing.

You should NOT be able to guard an exit if you are hidden. Especially if it just returns someone and not your Sdesc. Guarding, in this sense is physically putting yourself in the way, which is obvious as hell.

Edit to add: A guard check should cause you to become visible, as an alternative to flat out disallowing hide and guard to work in tandem.

If you stop someone going through a door, you should not remain hidden. If you try to stop a guy going through a door you should not remain hidden.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 06:18:06 PM by Hauwke »

Dresan

  • Posts: 1306
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2019, 03:01:30 AM »
Unless you are playing an elf, infiltrator and scout have terrible stealth already. With an elven infiltrator with the best possible agility, stealth skills can still fail a depressing number of times even when maxed.

Ultimately the one thing all stealth classes have in common is that their combat sucks. The moment their stealth fails they are dead, either socially or literally.

If you nerf stealth in any way, combat and stealth based skills will probably also need to similar re-balancing boosts across the classes.

Keep in mind  though, not everyone enjoys the combat in this game.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 03:09:38 AM by Dresan »
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Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2019, 10:04:02 AM »
As a whole stealth needs to be good because it's the primary tactic of an entire set of character play styles/classes. I think it's just a few niche cases that might need to be looked at.

As Hawke mentioned guarding an exit while hiding and not breaking hide if contested is weird and probably shouldn't happen.

Being able to watch a small to average sized door and having someone be able to pick it, open it, and enter, while you are physically staring at the door, but you somehow didn't notice the door opening, is weird.

Peek at times seems like it's able to see underwear or under objects that it probably shouldn't, also layers of objects, which is odd. Peek should probably be limited to container objects only.

That's all I can think of atm that I would even consider in need of adjustment.


Dresan

  • Posts: 1306
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2019, 10:17:22 AM »
Being able to watch a small to average sized door and having someone be able to pick it, open it, and enter, while you are physically staring at the door, but you somehow didn't notice the door opening, is weird.

I would be okay with this but with this change I would also recommend the following:
  • sleight of hand rates are improved
  • watch is changed so that the longer you watch something, the more chance you fail (becoming distracted)
  • You are able to sneak in through windows.

Basically you can close all the 'loopholes' you want, but new 'features' would need to be added to allow the same thing you are trying to prevent.
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Mercy

  • Posts: 115
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2019, 10:45:55 AM »
Unless you are playing an elf, infiltrator and scout have terrible stealth already. With an elven infiltrator with the best possible agility, stealth skills can still fail a depressing number of times even when maxed.

Honestly, I think stealth needs to be more normalized and less random. A single persistent flat roll for the duration, with bonuses coming from rooms, means your sneak check won't suddenly fail on you and expose you to the world without you know. Additionally, I think if you're being obviously bad  the game should tell you (I.E. the crowd in this room is particularly thin and you look like a weird creep hunched in the middle of no one. You tripped over someone's table and are making noise, or you tried to fit behind something to cover yourself from a mark, only to realize half the room has a perfect viewing angle on you and maybe it's time to go). I don't like that you have no idea how terrible you're being at stealth. There is a certain margin for error when you're not being bad and someone is just attentive enough and you should get no warning for that. But when the Half-Giant really busy trying to get a kank-fly out of his nose sees you saunter into the room with all the subtlety of a mekillot carrying a salt worm, you probably would know you're not doing so hot.

Additionally whenever your timer runs out, I'd love for there to be some notification. This is for all of the 'toggle' duration skills. It seems very odd to me that when my character has basically decided "I don't wanna listen so hard anymore" I have no way of realize outside of setting something on my prompt, or manually checking the status. Maybe add a brief option to gag this for people who prefer the way things are now. But it just seems jarring more than anything.

And I agree whole heartedly with the whole guard/hide interaction. It might warrant submitting a request about that so staff actually sees it in a timely fashion if they aren't particularly keen on perusing this thread. It seems extra bizarre. I would posit that if you're guarding an exit and stop someone who is hidden you should reveal them as well if it doesn't already work that way. Obviously if you don't it shouldn't reveal them (I can see realism/immersion arguments against this but ultimately I don't think it's fair or makes the most sense). There's a lot to be said about door interactions and stealth, but at this point I don't even wanna go there.


Brokkr

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Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2019, 11:46:58 AM »
Being able to watch a small to average sized door and having someone be able to pick it, open it, and enter, while you are physically staring at the door, but you somehow didn't notice the door opening, is weird.

Not possible unless they are using magick.

Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2019, 12:18:16 PM »
Being able to watch a small to average sized door and having someone be able to pick it, open it, and enter, while you are physically staring at the door, but you somehow didn't notice the door opening, is weird.

Not possible unless they are using magick.

*chin stroke*

Harmless

  • Posts: 2815
Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2019, 01:45:40 PM »
There was an awesome player submitted log of an assassin hiding for hours doing that, on a ledge, high up, so that it made sense that they stayed hidden watching a conversation between noble marks. In that tale the assassin threw out feels of her muscles aching from the sustained waiting, aching for the observed conversation she spied on to end -- but she wasn't experiencing any coded stress at all, she stayed hidden just fine doing nothing.

I think instead of flagging a room no_hide, it could be flagged difficult_hide or no_cover or quiet, where you can still hide in it, but it requires such stillness/positioning/effort to maintain lack of notice (such as in a totally quiet room or clear area) that you expend move or maybe stun points over time by sustaining it, getting harder to sustain the longer you hold it, and risk exhausting yourself by waiting too long.

These rooms will warn you when you hide in them, that you have no "cover" be it noise or objects or vNPCs and so staying hidden requires intense concentration/effort.
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number13

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Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2019, 02:22:08 AM »
^a great idea.

Brokkr

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Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2019, 12:34:19 PM »
My take on stealth is that I used to like to play the game Thief.

Veselka

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Re: Sneaking and Hiding: A complete overhaul
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2019, 05:27:52 PM »
My take on stealth is that I used to like to play the game Thief.

A+
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