Author Topic: The yin and yang of sparring/training now  (Read 9266 times)

Eyeball

  • Posts: 1101
The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« on: June 02, 2019, 04:40:26 AM »
In spar-happy clans like the AoD and the Byn, a large portion of the week is spent training. Which means PCs smacking each other with slightly blunted sparring weapons.

Recently a change was made to skill progression in offense and defense (and some other combat skills, although it's not clear which are exempt and which are not). A PC will progress more quickly by training with someone more advanced in these than themselves, and less quickly (or even not at all) by training with someone less advanced.

The effects of these have been slowly registering in the collective player consciousness.

For example. Let's say Player A starts off with Players B, C and D to train with. The latter three only log in now and then, while Player A has more time to devote to the game and is the go-to sparring buddy for the other three.

Player A is working hard and expects to excel because of it. Or not even, Player A just wants to play but is constrained by the clan's schedule and would still reasonably like to see a reward for the time put in.

Player A does initially excel. But progress slows down and nearly halts. Meanwhile, Players B, C and D sing la la la, logging in once in a while and start advancing in leaps when training with Player A.

Player A's grinding effectively goes into Players B, C and D's pockets.

What are Player A's options here now?

1. Continue to grind away basically as a servant to the others.

2. Adjust login times to avoid fruitless periods of training on the schedule.

3. Reduce play times to match Players B, C and D's average.

4. Quit the clan and do something else.

None of these seem a particularly good outcome to me. Previously an advanced character at least could still take the occasional knock and have a chance to improve. No longer.

Yes, I realize that roleplaying out sparring can be its own reward, but after the ten thousandth time, maybe not any more?

I can understand why the notion of PCs grinding against high-agility NPCs to achieve high skills was unappealing, but please either give Player A some benefit for the time locked into a clan schedule or give PCs in these clans something meaningful they can do sometimes instead of train, train, train. Right now, it's set up to punish those who play a lot and reward those who play little.

EDIT: and pity Player A if B, C and D die or disappear or store and now rookies E, F and G come along.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 02:28:39 PM by Eyeball »

mansa

  • Posts: 9753
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2019, 07:54:57 AM »
I feel the underlying question here isn't so much about skill progression, but about this question - "What do I want to do in the game, when my clan mates aren't regular?"
Because the simple solution to the proposed question is to have clan mates that are regular.


I feel the real reason you want to ask the question is - "What do I do now?  What are my character's goals?  Why do I want to get powerful and what do I want to accomplish once I reach that?  Why am I trying to rush my progression?"
I don't have an answer for that.
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Eyeball

  • Posts: 1101
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2019, 12:54:21 PM »
My question is more like, "I'm just sick of sparring, but the clan schedule is full of it, and now to top it off, the character doesn't even benefit from it. So logging in feels like a complete waste of time except for the rare extracurricular events. I want to be part of a clan for the social and activity elements, but this isn't working."

Halcyon

  • Posts: 298
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2019, 01:45:32 PM »
I only play in one of the military clans you mention, but the fun extracurriculars seem more bounded by organizational problems.   A world of static risks requires a big group to be somewhat safe, and coordinating a dozen or more players for multi hour outings isnt always easy.   Maintaining three or four leadership pcs also doesnt seem easy, although there have been times where that has been the solution in the Byn.

I dislike that the new clan sparring reality negates playtime as you mentioned, and negates high wisdom advantages.  I do like that it could bring Runner E, F, and G up enough in skill as to quickly bypass the early feeling of uselessness.   That said, hunting animals is still the faster, riskier way to a skilled character.

I am very much hoping that this new clan sparring mechanic will create social opportunity and value for highly skilled combatants.   Those champions dont have to train everyone evenly.  A shifting reality of favorites, favors, and prejudice could make for more interesting military clans.   It also creates recruitment possibilities.   Recruiting a Rink or an Ish now is absolute coup for a leader and the clan they lead, even if that veteran combatant only stays a game year.

   


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path

  • Posts: 1483
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Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2019, 04:02:38 PM »
I'm a dilettante and this is a huge downer. For what it's worth, I'm not all, "la-la-la". I'm like, oh man. That is not great.

It's unfun.

So much of gameplay is motivated by achievable goals and for a lot of players, those goals are skills. And then there are the players who are explorer types or whatever. And me, I feel that I'm winning when contributing to an interesting scene.

However, I digress. In my experience I often learn material best when teaching it. That's not reflected here. I'm tempted to give you character advice but I'm going to skip that, since you're posting here to bring attention to an aspect of code that seems like it could use some assistance.

Halcyon, that was a glorious example of creating fun situations within the structure and I wouldn't feel right if I didn't call you out on how imaginative and awesome that set-up would be.
Do you kill your sparring partners once they are useless to you, so that you are king?

Brokkr

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Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2019, 04:33:50 PM »
Recently a change

You do realize this change is multiple years old at this point?

And even before that change, folks hit the plateau, which if anything shifted slightly upwards by this change.

So I am going to turn this around.  How do we give you what you want, but keep truly exceptional combat characters exceptional, where it isn't just a matter of putting in the time/effort to become exceptional, from a skill perspective?

Eyeball

  • Posts: 1101
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2019, 05:20:11 PM »
Recently a change

You do realize this change is multiple years old at this point?

Ok, put it this way then: it's a change I only recently became aware of.

Quote
So I am going to turn this around.  How do we give you what you want, but keep truly exceptional combat characters exceptional, where it isn't just a matter of putting in the time/effort to become exceptional, from a skill perspective?

Get the clan imms to change the clan schedule and ease off the sparring requirement. Here are a few ideas to replace it:

1. Pest control of giant rats and such in the city. Each body collected earns a few coins of a bounty paid by an NPC, or maybe a crossbow bolt.

2. Scheduled patrol of the road west of the city, with the purpose of giving visitors to Menos some security at a specific time they can know about.

3. Quarry duty. Stone for repairs to the compound. If the work isn't done, the degradation becomes noticeable and inconvenient.

4. Alley patrol. Put in some invisible object that detects when the AoD enters and rolls a small chance for some type of random encounter to be spawned. It can have a list of possible encounters it sets up.

5. Sewer patrol. Give the AoD access to a new, separate subsection of the sewers. (Maybe they hook up to the main sewers but the way is blocked by a grate). Like the alley patrol, put in chances for various encounters at various spawn points, but for a different set than in the alleys. They don't all have to be beast #19382. There could be rare odds of something good happening, like a gemstone was flushed and now catches a soldier's eye.

Things like that. Add interest and variety to the schedule.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 05:25:06 PM by Eyeball »

Kryos

  • Posts: 905
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2019, 06:57:52 PM »
Recently a change

You do realize this change is multiple years old at this point?

And even before that change, folks hit the plateau, which if anything shifted slightly upwards by this change.

So I am going to turn this around.  How do we give you what you want, but keep truly exceptional combat characters exceptional, where it isn't just a matter of putting in the time/effort to become exceptional, from a skill perspective?

I've been a fan of these changes since they rolled in, posted a few times about how they did exactly as you say for the average player:  put the plateau higher.  Most importantly, it seems to me that if you are working with other players, even if you hit a plateau, you don't 'stop'.  You just slow down a good deal.

I think people are just starting to realize the nature of some of these changes due to the class changes but that's another can of worms.

To answer your question as succinctly as I can I will make two statements.  I think the reason that people hit a plateau is one of the driving factors for 'bad' behaviors in the game.  I also believe that most importantly a way to 'spread the love' of feeling special is important, as in make sure different players are getting the chance with each 'generation' of pcs to be the chosen ones.  And not just by being the next in line to spec app sorcerer.

Lastly, I also agree with the sentiment that static world design negatively impacts clan behaviors and life for the average player and leader.  Agency, dynamic objectives, and the ability to change things are the bricks of good story telling.  Great players(authors) participating is the concrete.

Brokkr

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Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2019, 09:01:07 PM »
Recently a change

You do realize this change is multiple years old at this point?

Ok, put it this way then: it's a change I only recently became aware of.

Quote
So I am going to turn this around.  How do we give you what you want, but keep truly exceptional combat characters exceptional, where it isn't just a matter of putting in the time/effort to become exceptional, from a skill perspective?

Get the clan imms to change the clan schedule and ease off the sparring requirement. Here are a few ideas to replace it:

1. Pest control of giant rats and such in the city. Each body collected earns a few coins of a bounty paid by an NPC, or maybe a crossbow bolt.

2. Scheduled patrol of the road west of the city, with the purpose of giving visitors to Menos some security at a specific time they can know about.

3. Quarry duty. Stone for repairs to the compound. If the work isn't done, the degradation becomes noticeable and inconvenient.

4. Alley patrol. Put in some invisible object that detects when the AoD enters and rolls a small chance for some type of random encounter to be spawned. It can have a list of possible encounters it sets up.

5. Sewer patrol. Give the AoD access to a new, separate subsection of the sewers. (Maybe they hook up to the main sewers but the way is blocked by a grate). Like the alley patrol, put in chances for various encounters at various spawn points, but for a different set than in the alleys. They don't all have to be beast #19382. There could be rare odds of something good happening, like a gemstone was flushed and now catches a soldier's eye.

Things like that. Add interest and variety to the schedule.

This sounds mostly like stuff we expect clan leaders to facilitate.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2019, 10:43:22 PM »
Recently a change

You do realize this change is multiple years old at this point?

Ok, put it this way then: it's a change I only recently became aware of.

Quote
So I am going to turn this around.  How do we give you what you want, but keep truly exceptional combat characters exceptional, where it isn't just a matter of putting in the time/effort to become exceptional, from a skill perspective?

Get the clan imms to change the clan schedule and ease off the sparring requirement. Here are a few ideas to replace it:

1. Pest control of giant rats and such in the city. Each body collected earns a few coins of a bounty paid by an NPC, or maybe a crossbow bolt.

2. Scheduled patrol of the road west of the city, with the purpose of giving visitors to Menos some security at a specific time they can know about.

3. Quarry duty. Stone for repairs to the compound. If the work isn't done, the degradation becomes noticeable and inconvenient.

4. Alley patrol. Put in some invisible object that detects when the AoD enters and rolls a small chance for some type of random encounter to be spawned. It can have a list of possible encounters it sets up.

5. Sewer patrol. Give the AoD access to a new, separate subsection of the sewers. (Maybe they hook up to the main sewers but the way is blocked by a grate). Like the alley patrol, put in chances for various encounters at various spawn points, but for a different set than in the alleys. They don't all have to be beast #19382. There could be rare odds of something good happening, like a gemstone was flushed and now catches a soldier's eye.

Things like that. Add interest and variety to the schedule.

This sounds mostly like stuff we expect clan leaders to facilitate.

I think there needs to be a Militia Ranger's Division for outdoors.  Then I will instantly apply for it. lol
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John

  • Posts: 4240
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2019, 10:58:59 PM »
Why not start one? It's not like there's crim code in the wilderness. Start small, be careful, get a merchant's license and then start to work your way up.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 11:00:49 PM by John »

triste

  • Posts: 78
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2019, 11:02:28 PM »
Why not start one?

On the topic of this derail: you can also make the Salarri hunting division great as it once was (and is described to be in the docs).

On the original topic of this thread: Tuluk had a public sparring area that has no equal in Allanak, Morin's, and so forth. I find these areas to be extremely valuable to unclanned people and people in smaller clans. Fun roleplay as well, it's like going to a gym. Would love to see one in every location in which a character can spawn in.
I don't have much time to play currently but will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

John

  • Posts: 4240
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2019, 11:06:35 PM »
On the topic of this derail: you can also make the Salarri hunting division great as it once was (and is described to be in the docs).
Definitely. Making a hunting crew who takes down big critters and stuff like that seems like a very useful idea.

On the original topic of this thread: Tuluk had a public sparring area that has no equal in Allanak, Morin's, and so forth. I find these areas to be extremely valuable to unclanned people and people in smaller clans. Fun roleplay as well, it's like going to a gym. Would love to see one in every location in which a character can spawn in.
Definitely doable for a player. Get a merchant's license. Get a warehouse. Boom. Allanak has a gym.

triste

  • Posts: 78
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2019, 11:18:07 PM »
Definitely doable for a player. Get a merchant's license. Get a warehouse. Boom. Allanak has a gym.

This is one I'd prefer to be out in the open and not player run such that it is an enduring fixture and doesn't rely on the playtimes of anyone to "open" the gym, as public sparring areas are a solution to the whole problem of "my leader and clan mates aren't around, but I want to train in an in character way besides killing rats."

I do love your predilection to say nothing technically bars a player from setting something up though <3 in this case though because of crim code I am just saying that the public sparring area in Tuluk worked great from my experience and helped small clans, independents, and so forth. I think part of the reason Allanak is such a bind where "if you want training you should go to the Byn," whereas Tuluk never suffered from that as much, is because Tuluk had a public sparring area.
I don't have much time to play currently but will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Namino

  • Posts: 472
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2019, 11:22:56 PM »
Get a merchant's license. Get a warehouse. Boom. Allanak has a gym.

Lol. Sorry, but that's some serious /r/restofthefuckingowl shit right there.

"Get a warehouse", I mean. Some players have spent OOC years of effort to do that.

John

  • Posts: 4240
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2019, 11:25:57 PM »
So skip the warehouse. Think outside the box.

This is one I'd prefer to be out in the open and not player run such that it is an enduring fixture and doesn't rely on the playtimes of anyone to "open" the gym, as public sparring areas are a solution to the whole problem of "my leader and clan mates aren't around, but I want to train in an in character way besides killing rats."
Then talk to local authorities, get creative and make such a place. I can think of one location in game that could definitely serve as a replacement for the Tuluk arena. It would certainly be thematic. And yes there would be some risk, but it'd get the ball rolling. And/or talk to staff about getting it with a shop in converting.

Remember. The Tuluk arena was initially player created.

I do love your predilection to say nothing technically bars a player from setting something up though <3 in this case though because of crim code I am just saying that the public sparring area in Tuluk worked great from my experience and helped small clans, independents, and so forth. I think part of the reason Allanak is such a bind where "if you want training you should go to the Byn," whereas Tuluk never suffered from that as much, is because Tuluk had a public sparring area.
Crim code can definitely be gotten around. You just need to think somewhat out of the box. Will it work exactly like Tuluk? No. But that's good. Allanak isn't Tuluk. It's rougher. And grittier and IMO that makes Allanak more enjoyable.

Any public sparring area is going to have that grittiness about it. Accept it and pursue it. Or don't and give up on it and post on the GDB how it'd be nice if staff did everything for us so we didn't have anything to aim for in game.

triste

  • Posts: 78
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2019, 11:52:49 PM »
Again, I like the sentiment, and reading your "hints" reminded me of when I tried to do something like this in alleyways, but that is understandably sketchy, most people could/would think it's just a situation where they would get ganked.

Just going to conclude with my original two thoughts:
- For those seeking an outdoor focused combat guild in Allanak, make Salarr (or literally any other merchant house) great again
- Public sparring completely resolves the issue of people being deprived of training opportunities in various contexts (small clans or independents) and is a better RP scenario than "let's spar in my apartment."
I don't have much time to play currently but will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

John

  • Posts: 4240
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2019, 12:02:21 AM »
Just going to conclude with my original two thoughts:
- For those seeking an outdoor focused combat guild in Allanak, make Salarr (or literally any other merchant house) great again
- Public sparring completely resolves the issue of people being deprived of training opportunities in various contexts (small clans or independents) and is a better RP scenario than "let's spar in my apartment."
I hope some people in the game decide to stop complaining about how nothing is possible and everything is boring because nothing can be achieved without staff support. And hopefully actually try to create these opportunities within the game.

[EDIT]: Sorry. This came across as more confrontational then necessary.

It gets tiring to see this regular cycle among the players (either on this forum, discord or other forums):
1) The game never changes.
2) The game's boring because all the changes are staff directed and created and players are just along for the ride.
3) It's too hard to try to achieve anything ourselves.
4) Staff never do anything.
5) Go back to Point 1.

This thread is pretty much squarely at point 3. I await the cycle moving back to point 4 and then back to point 1 and on and on the cycle goes.

The GDB is great for creating a sense of community. It's also great for inspiration. It's also one of the worst parts of the game.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 12:16:38 AM by John »

Brokkr

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Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2019, 12:45:47 AM »
Technically Tuluk had two.  Sort of.

It is worthwhile mentioning the second one was closed, intentionally.

Halcyon

  • Posts: 298
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2019, 01:17:13 AM »

It gets tiring to see this regular cycle among the players (either on this forum, discord or other forums):
1) The game never changes.
2) The game's boring because all the changes are staff directed and created and players are just along for the ride.
3) It's too hard to try to achieve anything ourselves.
4) Staff never do anything.
5) Go back to Point 1.

This thread is pretty much squarely at point 3. I await the cycle moving back to point 4 and then back to point 1 and on and on the cycle goes.

The GDB is great for creating a sense of community. It's also great for inspiration. It's also one of the worst parts of the game.

If we have a GDB rule not to discuss in game events, shouldnt there also be a corollary that posters probably did make an effort of some shape before posting in frustration? 

I've played no less than six pcs, all more than a year ago, all more than 20days played each, who have tried to start a common sparring group or area, or even a sparring for pay job.    There are some pretty large blockers to establishing one.   Some of which are in clan docs, some are a lack of 16 hour a day access, and some are healthy IC paranoia.    I'm not going to try again, especially given more than one attempt to get a warehouse for this and other purposes.   

I'm not trying to be negative, just illustrate my earlier objection.   Some of these topics cant be effectively discussed in this forum.
Desert planet, your time has come. A storm is coming, our storm, and when it arrives it will shake the universe.
- Dune

Krath

  • Posts: 2589
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2019, 01:23:39 AM »
I am probably going to sound like a dick like normal, so I apologize beforehand.

There are thousands of public sparring areas, like every room outside of a city/outpost/village, or every apartment.

Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

triste

  • Posts: 78
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2019, 01:34:39 AM »
I am probably going to sound like a dick like normal, so I apologize beforehand.

There are thousands of public sparring areas, like every room outside of a city/outpost/village, or every apartment.

Yes you can do this, but not the same roleplaying scenario, and they are inferior ones:

Sparring in apartments:
- dangerous, someone just needs to lock a door to murder someone
- Tacky AF. Time to roleplay skipping around the massive amount of junk you have in your room, etc.
- doesn't even make sense given some room descriptions but people do it anyway, I suspect, because it is one of the only options to avoid crimcode.

Sparring outdoors:
- dangerous, some scrab/raider/whatever just needs to roll up. If anything a raider shooting poisoned arrows at people sparring outdoors would be doing them a favor because...
- ...the roleplaying is again tacky AF. "Let's go camp and spar bro," I mean I don't know how to even pose this as an option without it again seeming strange and just an effort to get around coded constraints. Only exception to this is if you are a tribal and don't go into cities anyway.

It is telling and sensible that even the newest elven tribe has a sparring area in their camp. Why should any imm/builder go through the effort of building this when they could step one room outside to spar per your recommendation? Because it is a better roleplay environment to have a fighting pit right in the camp.

People are painting this proposition as one that comes of whining, but it is really about offering good circumstances for role play here, it's sensible and I am honestly surprised so many people are vehemently opposing it. In many ancient societies like Greece gymnasiums and areas where people trained like this were a key part of, if not central to, their cultures.
I don't have much time to play currently but will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

John

  • Posts: 4240
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2019, 02:42:09 AM »
If we have a GDB rule not to discuss in game events, shouldnt there also be a corollary that posters probably did make an effort of some shape before posting in frustration?
Sometimes yes. Often times no.

I've played no less than six pcs, all more than a year ago, all more than 20days played each, who have tried to start a common sparring group or area, or even a sparring for pay job.    There are some pretty large blockers to establishing one.   Some of which are in clan docs, some are a lack of 16 hour a day access, and some are healthy IC paranoia.    I'm not going to try again, especially given more than one attempt to get a warehouse for this and other purposes.
Out of interest were you ever told OOCly that you would not be allowed to pursue this or that you would never successfully attain your goal due to OOC reasons?

John

  • Posts: 4240
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2019, 02:44:23 AM »
People are painting this proposition as one that comes of whining, but it is really about offering good circumstances for role play here, it's sensible and I am honestly surprised so many people are vehemently opposing it. In many ancient societies like Greece gymnasiums and areas where people trained like this were a key part of, if not central to, their cultures.
I'm not opposing it. I'm just saying that expecting staff to implement it is unlikely to occur and I'm encouraging people to pursue it via PCs instead. If I could think of a fun way to do it I might even have a go myself. But to be honest sparring is one of the most boring activities there is in the game.

Halcyon

  • Posts: 298
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2019, 03:24:41 AM »
Out of interest were you ever told OOCly that you would not be allowed to pursue this or that you would never successfully attain your goal due to OOC reasons?
I was not refused. 

My perception is that there are two blockers.   The main one is that my pcs dont tend to last more than six months real time.   Even when I have put a thousand hours of play on a pc in that time, I have a feeling of not being anywhere far enough along for several goals I've pursued (Lieutenant in a clan, new sparring organization, warehouse ownership, starting one of three lesser merchant thingies).  Mea culpa. 

Then I go back to skill-maxing.    :-[


Desert planet, your time has come. A storm is coming, our storm, and when it arrives it will shake the universe.
- Dune