Author Topic: The yin and yang of sparring/training now  (Read 3926 times)

Brokkr

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Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2019, 12:19:55 PM »
If they really aren't able to get gains, even with sparring Trooper+, then I think it might be time for a contract.

As Riev suggests, getting them killed off is also a solution.

 :-X

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9783
Re: The ying and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2019, 02:07:04 PM »
Sparring is basically the same as it always has been since the defense nerf.

Non-elf PCs typically don't have enough agility and base defense to dodge a jman weapon skill plus base offense (if you organically trained them together--i.e. no chargen skill boosts), and parries and blocks don't count as failures.

The only real difference between the "good" fighters and the "bad" fighters in the Byn is how high parry, block, and disarm cap...because offensively, everyone gets stuck around the same point.

Using RPTs as a way to generate weapon/style skill gains is a silly idea, because the only critters out there that will actually dodge jman strikes while getting dogpiled by Bynners (e.g. ankhegs) are so dangerous that they'll melt through every noob on the crew, and sacrificing three noobs so a Trooper can get a few dodges isn't worth it.
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Riev

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2019, 02:48:25 PM »
Contract:
Sergeant needs a new Cat-o-Nine-Tails to beat the useless Runners with.

Support:
Trooper BigBuffs, being recently promoted to Mercenary.

Orders:
Bring me the tails of at least nine turaals, and one solid wood haft.

Pay:
You get to stay in my unit.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9783
Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2019, 03:27:15 PM »
I doubt turaals are quick enough to dodge jman when they start suffering from the multiple attacker defense penalty.

Even if they are, the sheer number of fails you need to get any appreciable skill gain for a weapon/style skill is staggering, and it has to be spaced out over time.  You'd have to run the same contract every RL day for a couple of RL months.

It's just not logistically feasible.
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Riev

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2019, 04:24:01 PM »
I doubt turaals are quick enough to dodge jman when they start suffering from the multiple attacker defense penalty.

Even if they are, the sheer number of fails you need to get any appreciable skill gain for a weapon/style skill is staggering, and it has to be spaced out over time.  You'd have to run the same contract every RL day for a couple of RL months.

It's just not logistically feasible.

I think you are either missing the joke, or just willfully arguing your own point.

The idea behind it all, being you send that one Trooper/Mercenary out there to get his fails, but keep the rest all penned in.

Not "bring out 12 Runners to kill a turaal for a tail".
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Synthesis

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2019, 05:49:19 PM »
You initially suggested the contract idea in what sounded like a serious way, then you later suggested a specific type of contract, again in what sounded like a serious way...so yes, I suppose I missed the joke.

At any rate...back to fixing the problem, right?

I think having basic bitch sparring plateau everyone at jman weapon/style is probably okay.

The real problem, as I see it, is that the method to get beyond that plateau makes no sense.  It doesn't make sense that to be an elite-tier warrior, the formula is: 1) basic bitch sparring until your "easy" skills are at master and your weapon/style skills are plateaued at jman then 2) critter-grind your weapon/style skills to master.

There should be a more realistic method of breaking through the jman plateau that doesn't boil down to either critter-grinding or simply more sparring.  I have a bunch of different ideas, but every one of them would be guaranteed to piss people off more than the current system does.  The balancing act between "everyone is awesome" and "everybody is a scrub" is pretty difficult, once you start trying to put it on paper.
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maxid

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2019, 07:42:11 PM »
I'd love to hear some of those ideas, Synth.  Post 'em up that's what the thread is for.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9783
Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2019, 12:03:56 AM »
Method #1:  The 5%ers
Get rid of the jman plateau and refigure the learning curve so that anyone can reach (master) in a single weapon skill and style by playing realistically, but it will only happen in a timeframe where the actual evidence-based survival rate for PCs is like 5% or less.  So...if only 5% of PCs survive for 25 days played or 6 months RL time (whichever is longer), set the curve so that it's impossible to reach mastery before that, but it will happen easily thereafter.  Want to master another style and weapon? Another 25 days played/6 months RL time (or whatever the timeframe is).  This is a hard ceiling:  you can hit the top of (advanced) in every one of your combat skills as fast as you can do it, but you will not advance any further until you hit the days played/RL time played bar.

Method #2: Only Elites are Elite
Lock mastery behind clan/organization doors.  The only way to reach (master) in a timely manner is by sparring inside specially-coded clan sparring rooms, where the skillgain rate is dramatically improved.  This represents the presence of virtual kung-fu masters teaching you virtually when you're in a coded clan.  If you remain an indie grebber or thug, you'll forever be scrub-tier.

Method #3:  Fog of War
Get rid of visible skill levels.  Nobody knows how good they are, so nobody can complain about being stuck at jman.

Method #4: Make Defense Great Again
Bump humanoid base defense (or change the calculations without changing the actual skill levels) so that jman weapon skill plus jman-ish base offense only has a jman-ish chance of actually hitting.

Method #5: Make Parry and Disarm Standalone Skills
Decouple parry and disarm from weapon skills.  The main reason having a shitty weapon skill sucks is that your defenses are also nerfed.  Change the calculations so that having maxed parry with zero weapon skill functions exactly like having maxed parry with master weapon skill.  Same for disarm.  You still might be stuck on the jman plateau for weapon skills, but it won't suck quite as much.
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Veselka

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2019, 04:07:42 AM »
Method #1:  The 5%ers
Get rid of the jman plateau and refigure the learning curve so that anyone can reach (master) in a single weapon skill and style by playing realistically, but it will only happen in a timeframe where the actual evidence-based survival rate for PCs is like 5% or less.  So...if only 5% of PCs survive for 25 days played or 6 months RL time (whichever is longer), set the curve so that it's impossible to reach mastery before that, but it will happen easily thereafter.  Want to master another style and weapon? Another 25 days played/6 months RL time (or whatever the timeframe is).  This is a hard ceiling:  you can hit the top of (advanced) in every one of your combat skills as fast as you can do it, but you will not advance any further until you hit the days played/RL time played bar.

Method #2: Only Elites are Elite
Lock mastery behind clan/organization doors.  The only way to reach (master) in a timely manner is by sparring inside specially-coded clan sparring rooms, where the skillgain rate is dramatically improved.  This represents the presence of virtual kung-fu masters teaching you virtually when you're in a coded clan.  If you remain an indie grebber or thug, you'll forever be scrub-tier.

Method #3:  Fog of War
Get rid of visible skill levels.  Nobody knows how good they are, so nobody can complain about being stuck at jman.

Method #4: Make Defense Great Again
Bump humanoid base defense (or change the calculations without changing the actual skill levels) so that jman weapon skill plus jman-ish base offense only has a jman-ish chance of actually hitting.

Method #5: Make Parry and Disarm Standalone Skills
Decouple parry and disarm from weapon skills.  The main reason having a shitty weapon skill sucks is that your defenses are also nerfed.  Change the calculations so that having maxed parry with zero weapon skill functions exactly like having maxed parry with master weapon skill.  Same for disarm.  You still might be stuck on the jman plateau for weapon skills, but it won't suck quite as much.

I approve of All methods mentioned here.
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Riev

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2019, 09:58:06 AM »
I have long been a proponent of #2.

Even if not locked behind clan-access, some sort of quest/approval system. If you've been hard-stuck at Advanced for years, or it is in your character's goals to really master the skill of the longblade, then it is staff-limited. Maybe they need to be 'taught' by a PC/NPC who already has Master, and like languages, sometimes it just doesn't take.

Or the clan idea of needing to be clanned into "Swordmasters", where you have been virtually, or actively, training to become a master of skill. This way it can be tracked by staff, and be something to play off of.
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maxid

  • Posts: 716
Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2019, 10:19:11 AM »
Method #1:  The 5%ers
Get rid of the jman plateau and refigure the learning curve so that anyone can reach (master) in a single weapon skill and style by playing realistically, but it will only happen in a timeframe where the actual evidence-based survival rate for PCs is like 5% or less.  So...if only 5% of PCs survive for 25 days played or 6 months RL time (whichever is longer), set the curve so that it's impossible to reach mastery before that, but it will happen easily thereafter.  Want to master another style and weapon? Another 25 days played/6 months RL time (or whatever the timeframe is).  This is a hard ceiling:  you can hit the top of (advanced) in every one of your combat skills as fast as you can do it, but you will not advance any further until you hit the days played/RL time played bar.

Method #2: Only Elites are Elite
Lock mastery behind clan/organization doors.  The only way to reach (master) in a timely manner is by sparring inside specially-coded clan sparring rooms, where the skillgain rate is dramatically improved.  This represents the presence of virtual kung-fu masters teaching you virtually when you're in a coded clan.  If you remain an indie grebber or thug, you'll forever be scrub-tier.

Method #3:  Fog of War
Get rid of visible skill levels.  Nobody knows how good they are, so nobody can complain about being stuck at jman.

Method #4: Make Defense Great Again
Bump humanoid base defense (or change the calculations without changing the actual skill levels) so that jman weapon skill plus jman-ish base offense only has a jman-ish chance of actually hitting.

Method #5: Make Parry and Disarm Standalone Skills
Decouple parry and disarm from weapon skills.  The main reason having a shitty weapon skill sucks is that your defenses are also nerfed.  Change the calculations so that having maxed parry with zero weapon skill functions exactly like having maxed parry with master weapon skill.  Same for disarm.  You still might be stuck on the jman plateau for weapon skills, but it won't suck quite as much.

I'm a big fan of #2.  Like an absolutely massive, huge, giant fan of it.  #1, 4, and 5 are also good.  I dislike #3 personally but see why it has a draw.

Thanks for your thoughts Synth!

Krath

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2019, 11:45:02 AM »
#2, and..
#3 until you reach master, that way the masters know they are master.
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Cerelum

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2019, 12:04:34 PM »
I'm okay with all of these except fog of war.

Because you really don't need master to kill folks or most critters I've starting to realize.
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Eyeball

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2019, 02:24:53 PM »
#2 another suggestion for gimping indies, why am I not surprised?

If you people all want disposable bodies for your clans, why don't you just insist that you have to pick one in the chargen process and be done with it.

Riev

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2019, 02:33:35 PM »
#2 another suggestion for gimping indies, why am I not surprised?

If you people all want disposable bodies for your clans, why don't you just insist that you have to pick one in the chargen process and be done with it.

I don't think it gimps indies, at least in my mind.

Its not "join the AoD or you can't be a master" its "be codedly brought into the clan 'Swordmasters of Zalanthas'" and based on your role in that tribe, you can get to "master" levels.

I would hate if you could only be a master by joining Tor/Borsail for 10 IC years.
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maxid

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2019, 04:59:25 PM »
Advanced weapons skill cap is so far from 'gimped' that I barely know how to frame a response.

X-D

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2019, 06:33:43 PM »
I do not like any cept fog of war. But then I remember when you could see the % and later when no skill levels. I prefer no skill levels to % or current.

I specially hate #1 and #2...Which you might find odd if you know how long I keep PCs alive in and out of clans. But #1 simply has too many issues, the worst being that to likely MANY in the playerbase it would feel more like a punishment then anything. And it should be which ever is shorter not longer. Otherwise it really is a punishment to people that actually play a reasonable amount of time.

#2 Is the least realistic of any of them and just means, join clan Elite swords, spar ass off...leave.

#4 Meh Don't really like when messing with such things....lost too many PCs to it.

#5 Fine with it, I do not think it goes anywhere to the issue, but meh.
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maxid

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2019, 06:44:54 PM »
Can you explain how 'join a clan that actually provides real training in (sword/axe/etc.)play in order to actually master it' is unrealistic?

In real life you don't become a master swordsman by swinging your sword at deer a lot, or by fighting without training.  You can only really achieve mastery by actually learning tips from someone else who has dedicated themselves to learning a weapon.  Learning from someone is vastly more realistic than becoming a True Elite Master by fighting random animals in the wilderness.

Synthesis

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2019, 07:44:08 PM »
I do not like any cept fog of war. But then I remember when you could see the % and later when no skill levels. I prefer no skill levels to % or current.

I specially hate #1 and #2...Which you might find odd if you know how long I keep PCs alive in and out of clans. But #1 simply has too many issues, the worst being that to likely MANY in the playerbase it would feel more like a punishment then anything. And it should be which ever is shorter not longer. Otherwise it really is a punishment to people that actually play a reasonable amount of time.

#2 Is the least realistic of any of them and just means, join clan Elite swords, spar ass off...leave.

#4 Meh Don't really like when messing with such things....lost too many PCs to it.

#5 Fine with it, I do not think it goes anywhere to the issue, but meh.

The idea behind #2 is that you're in a clan that you -can't- leave.  The only clans that would have weapon masters would be d-elf tribes, the Guild, the AoD, and noble Houses.  The Byn aren't "elite."

And #1 isn't a punishment at all for people who aren't critter grinding.  Under #1, if you're just Byn sparring and you survive for 25 days or whatever the number is, after that 25 days, you start advancing much, much faster...so critter grinding shouldn't be necessary.  Waiting 25 days is only a punishment for us folks who know how to master a weapon skill in 15 days played (or less, if you start with buffs).
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Cerelum

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2019, 07:55:44 PM »
I do not like any cept fog of war. But then I remember when you could see the % and later when no skill levels. I prefer no skill levels to % or current.

I specially hate #1 and #2...Which you might find odd if you know how long I keep PCs alive in and out of clans. But #1 simply has too many issues, the worst being that to likely MANY in the playerbase it would feel more like a punishment then anything. And it should be which ever is shorter not longer. Otherwise it really is a punishment to people that actually play a reasonable amount of time.

#2 Is the least realistic of any of them and just means, join clan Elite swords, spar ass off...leave.

#4 Meh Don't really like when messing with such things....lost too many PCs to it.

#5 Fine with it, I do not think it goes anywhere to the issue, but meh.

The idea behind #2 is that you're in a clan that you -can't- leave.  The only clans that would have weapon masters would be d-elf tribes, the Guild, the AoD, and noble Houses.  The Byn aren't "elite."

And #1 isn't a punishment at all for people who aren't critter grinding.  Under #1, if you're just Byn sparring and you survive for 25 days or whatever the number is, after that 25 days, you start advancing much, much faster...so critter grinding shouldn't be necessary.  Waiting 25 days is only a punishment for us folks who know how to master a weapon skill in 15 days played (or less, if you start with buffs).

Without critter grinding, you literally have to just spar forever or kill folks.  Which is fine, but not great for training, cause you can only kill so many players before you run out.
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Synthesis

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2019, 08:10:54 PM »
I do not like any cept fog of war. But then I remember when you could see the % and later when no skill levels. I prefer no skill levels to % or current.

I specially hate #1 and #2...Which you might find odd if you know how long I keep PCs alive in and out of clans. But #1 simply has too many issues, the worst being that to likely MANY in the playerbase it would feel more like a punishment then anything. And it should be which ever is shorter not longer. Otherwise it really is a punishment to people that actually play a reasonable amount of time.

#2 Is the least realistic of any of them and just means, join clan Elite swords, spar ass off...leave.

#4 Meh Don't really like when messing with such things....lost too many PCs to it.

#5 Fine with it, I do not think it goes anywhere to the issue, but meh.

The idea behind #2 is that you're in a clan that you -can't- leave.  The only clans that would have weapon masters would be d-elf tribes, the Guild, the AoD, and noble Houses.  The Byn aren't "elite."

And #1 isn't a punishment at all for people who aren't critter grinding.  Under #1, if you're just Byn sparring and you survive for 25 days or whatever the number is, after that 25 days, you start advancing much, much faster...so critter grinding shouldn't be necessary.  Waiting 25 days is only a punishment for us folks who know how to master a weapon skill in 15 days played (or less, if you start with buffs).

Without critter grinding, you literally have to just spar forever or kill folks.  Which is fine, but not great for training, cause you can only kill so many players before you run out.

The idea under method #1 is that you -will- advance to master by doing normal things (sparring), once you pass the 5%er timepoint.  There are a variety of ways to achieve that:  100% chance to skillgain on every fail, parries/blocks count as fails, skillgain on headshots, skillgain on hits instead of misses, etc. etc.

And I guess I should clarify:  advancing to the jman plateau (whether it's low/mid/high jman) would take exactly the same amount of time.  Everything would be the same as it is now, until you hit the jman plateau AND you pass the 5%er mark.  This would prevent people from rolling PCs and never training them, then suddenly becoming masters simply because they stayed alive long enough.
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Quote from: Vanth
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X-D

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #71 on: June 06, 2019, 08:17:32 PM »
Quote
The idea behind #2 is that you're in a clan that you -can't- leave.  The only clans that would have weapon masters would be d-elf tribes, the Guild, the AoD, and noble Houses.  The Byn aren't "elite."

No such thing as a clan you cannot leave.

Quote
And I guess I should clarify:  advancing to the jman plateau (whether it's low/mid/high jman) would take exactly the same amount of time.  Everything would be the same as it is now, until you hit the jman plateau AND you pass the 5%er mark.  This would prevent people from rolling PCs and never training them, then suddenly becoming masters simply because they stayed alive long enough.

In that case...I change my mind on #1.
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Synthesis

  • Posts: 9783
Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2019, 08:30:57 PM »
Quote
The idea behind #2 is that you're in a clan that you -can't- leave.  The only clans that would have weapon masters would be d-elf tribes, the Guild, the AoD, and noble Houses.  The Byn aren't "elite."

No such thing as a clan you cannot leave.

Quote
And I guess I should clarify:  advancing to the jman plateau (whether it's low/mid/high jman) would take exactly the same amount of time.  Everything would be the same as it is now, until you hit the jman plateau AND you pass the 5%er mark.  This would prevent people from rolling PCs and never training them, then suddenly becoming masters simply because they stayed alive long enough.

In that case...I change my mind on #1.

Well, I mean...a clan you can't leave without suffering serious consequences.
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I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
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I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Namino

  • Posts: 430
Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2019, 08:33:30 PM »
Can I add a #6 option here?

#6: At the Summit of Corpse Mountain:

Proceeding to Journeyman takes precisely the same time and amount of effort as it does now. Advancement past Journeyman is impossible or very slow unless specific criteria are met. Any time you receive a skill up tick in a combat skill, the game provides you a very small amount of skill advancement such that it would take a very long time to ever get to master, and then it stores the tick in a 'latent' variable. If the criteria are met, then the stored tick drops and you get a larger boost of experience more similar to a normal tick. The criteria could be anything in this scenario but I prefer them to be things that can only be accomplished with major risk to your character's life -- dealing at least 40hp of damage to a creature with a total hitpoints > 200hp, receiving or dealing damage in excess of 25hp from a non-sparring weapon in a a single hit from/to a humanoid enemy, being struck with a non-training arrow, ect.

I prefer this idea because it means you can get 'good' by playing it safe. But to become GREAT, you have to take risks, participate in challenging contests and survive. The greatest warriors would have to go to war rather than sit cloistered in a sparring hall to achieve greatness. You have to cut your teeth on the edge of battle and learn from it to become a true monster. And since fighting creatures with > 200hp (mekillots and others) or being in situations where some other player is dropping 30hp crits with a serrated sword or a gith squad is peppering you with arrows are very lethal events that kill people with good reliability, people who achieve mastery become rare because many people die. For every grizzled veteran who can kill you with a twist of his wrist, you know there were five more who died on the climb. Elites are elite, rare, and command respect rather than simply being elite by the onus of time and hiding from risk of death.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 08:35:23 PM by Namino »

Is Friday

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Re: The yin and yang of sparring/training now
« Reply #74 on: June 06, 2019, 08:38:03 PM »
I like the idea of clan locking master skill gains, honestly.

Master warriors(tm) can then risk their lives if they want by leaving the clan (usually a life sworn position) to go open up their own dojo in the Grey Forest, teaching noobs.
And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.