Author Topic: Disembodied souls. Idea  (Read 1240 times)

Dar

  • Posts: 1412
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2019, 11:54:54 PM »
I personally love the idea.

It brings closure to players and allows them to catch the last glimpse of closing plot of their character. What are the negatives? That the player will find out who killed them and avenge his murder? I mean if we're so distrustful of our own playerbase, then why are we even pretending that this is a roleplaying enforced mud.

Veselka

  • Posts: 997
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2019, 12:51:59 AM »
I would argue that the lack of closure is part of what makes ArmageddonMUD, well, ArmageddonMUD.

I respect the difference of opinion and the speculation, but I would be about 95% opposed to this being implemented.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Namino

  • Posts: 437
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2019, 12:55:38 AM »
Armageddon MUD does have the most abrupt dump to menu ending of any game ever, tbh. Even the original Rogue from which all Roguelikes get their name had this:



I don't know if I like it or not the way it is in Armageddon. This is merely an observation that as far as abrupt severance from your character, nothing is more sudden that Arm.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9791
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2019, 01:20:29 AM »
When a PC dies in multiplayer mode, they enter a single-player port of the MUD.  You can play single-player mode until your PC dies in single-player, or you submit a new multiplayer mode PC.

In single-player mode, there's a scoreboard that keeps track of kill counts, 'sid earned, total skill points achieved, rooms explored, days survived in single-player mode.  Single-player is pure hack-and-slash.  Certain areas of the game are removed and/or dumbed-down for secrecy purposes.

Fight me.
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I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
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Namino

  • Posts: 437
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2019, 01:22:48 AM »
When a PC dies in multiplayer mode, they enter a single-player port of the MUD.  You can play single-player mode until your PC dies in single-player, or you submit a new multiplayer mode PC.

In single-player mode, there's a scoreboard that keeps track of kill counts, 'sid earned, total skill points achieved, rooms explored, days survived in single-player mode.  Single-player is pure hack-and-slash.  Certain areas of the game are removed and/or dumbed-down for secrecy purposes.

Fight me.

Fine.

Single-player mode doubles as the test server so all the recently dead players can test code changes staff have implemented before they go live.

oggotale

  • Posts: 112
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2019, 04:02:23 AM »
I personally love the idea.

It brings closure to players and allows them to catch the last glimpse of closing plot of their character. What are the negatives? That the player will find out who killed them and avenge his murder? I mean if we're so distrustful of our own playerbase, then why are we even pretending that this is a roleplaying enforced mud.

Nobodies perfect, these sort of things incite MG, even if MG isn't consciously done right.

It's sort of like stumbling on spoilers, if you say, find out that you were killed because of some plot X, like your boss eliminating you because you did something he didn't like (which was not against the ICly taught clan rules), say, this was getting friendly with a dwarf. If you join that clan with another char next time, you might be tempted to not do that thing, even if all IC incentives push you to do so (and you haven't just decided to app in a dwarf-hating char this time).

If I imagine this situation happening to me, I'd certainly be tempted to not not befriend dwarves on my otherwise standard character (regardless of his past).

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2019, 10:05:38 AM »
It all comes down to trust unfortunately, I wouldn’t abuse my ooc knowledge that you murdered me. But I could see folks getting all butthurt and trying to create some revenge dwarf raider/combat magick sorcerer hybrid to come after you. (I joke I hope nobody with three karma would be that petty)

But I don’t think you should always disallow things because of the potential of abuse.  Otherwise you just disallow everything.
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Riev

  • Posts: 5469
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2019, 11:34:26 AM »
It all comes down to trust unfortunately, I wouldn’t abuse my ooc knowledge that you murdered me. But I could see folks getting all butthurt and trying to create some revenge dwarf raider/combat magick sorcerer hybrid to come after you. (I joke I hope nobody with three karma would be that petty)

But I don’t think you should always disallow things because of the potential of abuse.  Otherwise you just disallow everything.

As mentioned before, it may not even be intentional abuse of OOC knowledge.

If you know your Salarri boss killed you because you were a dwarf, I bet you PROBABLY aren't going to create any more dwarf PCs that will interact with that guy. That's metagamed knowledge influencing your play.

If you saw that your mate was the one that killed you, and planned it with your best friend, its going to be REAL hard to play around them and not react differently. Maybe you can, but why tempt that situation?

I think there are better avenues to closure than "Strike me down but I'll still get to see what happened teehee"
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Cabooze

  • Posts: 286
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2019, 06:02:21 PM »
It all comes down to trust unfortunately, I wouldn’t abuse my ooc knowledge that you murdered me. But I could see folks getting all butthurt and trying to create some revenge dwarf raider/combat magick sorcerer hybrid to come after you. (I joke I hope nobody with three karma would be that petty)

But I don’t think you should always disallow things because of the potential of abuse.  Otherwise you just disallow everything.

As mentioned before, it may not even be intentional abuse of OOC knowledge.

If you know your Salarri boss killed you because you were a dwarf, I bet you PROBABLY aren't going to create any more dwarf PCs that will interact with that guy. That's metagamed knowledge influencing your play.

If you saw that your mate was the one that killed you, and planned it with your best friend, its going to be REAL hard to play around them and not react differently. Maybe you can, but why tempt that situation?

I think there are better avenues to closure than "Strike me down but I'll still get to see what happened teehee"

I feel like a good way to get around this worry of players metagaming about previous characters after witnessing their death, would be to lock becoming a ghost or something similar behind a karma-wall or an extra flag that staff applies to your account because they know you can handle it.

Delirium

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  • Posts: 12030
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2019, 06:11:29 PM »
At that point we get cries of favoritism and it creates division. Well, even moreso I suppose.

The brutal finality of death is one of the best worst parts of Armageddon. It seems best to leave it unchanged.
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

Eyeball

  • Posts: 1066
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2019, 06:47:01 PM »
How about this as a compromise.

If you get knocked to zero or less hitpoints, you become helpless, as now. "Stunned"/"Mortally wounded"

If you get knocked to below -10 hitpoints, you are going to die without magickal intervention. "Dying". Bandaging won't help. You are on a timer. Say half a minute.

However, unless your stun points are at zero, you can still see and hear events around you. You can emote and speak and whisper, but not use any other command.

But! If your foes don't want to allow you that half a minute, they can strike again to end it. Any hit once you're below -10 hp is an instant end.

Hopefully that could let people play out their death scenes now and then.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 06:53:22 PM by Eyeball »

PriestlySiren

  • Posts: 938
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2019, 11:35:16 PM »
How about this as a compromise.

If you get knocked to zero or less hitpoints, you become helpless, as now. "Stunned"/"Mortally wounded"

If you get knocked to below -10 hitpoints, you are going to die without magickal intervention. "Dying". Bandaging won't help. You are on a timer. Say half a minute.

However, unless your stun points are at zero, you can still see and hear events around you. You can emote and speak and whisper, but not use any other command.

But! If your foes don't want to allow you that half a minute, they can strike again to end it. Any hit once you're below -10 hp is an instant end.

Hopefully that could let people play out their death scenes now and then.

I like this. I would have loved to give out some death rattles or spit out blood on my enemies.

Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2019, 12:10:31 AM »
Disable shout and the way and I'd be down with this. Shout because it'd be jarring to have a guy screaming while smothering on their own blood. The way because if it wasn't disabled people would just execute the finishing move anyway, more often than not, I suspect.
You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

triste

  • Posts: 52
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2019, 12:20:33 AM »
While I like this idea I ultimately agree with what Veselka said here:

I would argue that the lack of closure is part of what makes ArmageddonMUD, well, ArmageddonMUD.

And what this means to me is that it is realistic. When you're dead, you're dead. There were of course theories after the invention of the guillotine that the brain lives for 30 seconds after decapitation but now scientists are thinking it's closer to 3 seconds. Given that time is compressed in Armageddon, that translates to... a few milliseconds in our time, basically no time at all. Life is pretty fragile and I've had enough loved ones die to know that when you die (or become unconscious shortly before dying) there are rarely opportunities for dramatic last words and there is no opportunity to look flowery as you die. Often you just die and become a corpse, an object. When other characters see someone die in game, they can generally fill in what the dying looked like when they hear that beep.

Again, I love the idea but I worry [1] the risk of abuse of people gleaning the extra OOC knowledge this might provide and [2] the fact that a lot of assassins / beasts will just deliver the ultimate death blow to hasten the process anyway, probably knowing people will just misuse any OOC knowledge while they are in the "almost dead but not really dead" state. Realism should outweigh narrative potential here. The horror and lack of closure around death IRL and IG is what makes us all want to avoid it. Part of what is so disturbing about death is that life just ends, consciousness just ends, it is often out of people's control, and it can be quick, brutal, unforgiving.

Namino

  • Posts: 437
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2019, 12:31:10 AM »
Shout because it'd be jarring to have a guy screaming while smothering on their own blood.

On the other hand we could have one of these:


AdamBlue

  • Posts: 828
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2019, 02:53:24 AM »
How about this as a compromise.

If you get knocked to zero or less hitpoints, you become helpless, as now. "Stunned"/"Mortally wounded"

If you get knocked to below -10 hitpoints, you are going to die without magickal intervention. "Dying". Bandaging won't help. You are on a timer. Say half a minute.

However, unless your stun points are at zero, you can still see and hear events around you. You can emote and speak and whisper, but not use any other command.

But! If your foes don't want to allow you that half a minute, they can strike again to end it. Any hit once you're below -10 hp is an instant end.

Hopefully that could let people play out their death scenes now and then.

Limit your ability to speak to the 'whisper' command.

azuriolinist

  • Posts: 461
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2019, 04:00:13 AM »
How about this as a compromise.

If you get knocked to zero or less hitpoints, you become helpless, as now. "Stunned"/"Mortally wounded"

If you get knocked to below -10 hitpoints, you are going to die without magickal intervention. "Dying". Bandaging won't help. You are on a timer. Say half a minute.

However, unless your stun points are at zero, you can still see and hear events around you. You can emote and speak and whisper, but not use any other command.

But! If your foes don't want to allow you that half a minute, they can strike again to end it. Any hit once you're below -10 hp is an instant end.

Hopefully that could let people play out their death scenes now and then.

I'd be all for this. I've always wished for more ability to roleplay out one's death. That's made difficult when it's impossible to see or hear anything that's going on.

Dar

  • Posts: 1412
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2019, 04:17:41 AM »
I honestly dont get it. I mean, we're platying a game where you can be in a gang and concoct a masterplan of kidnapping a noble's concubine one week and then be the loyal servant of that noble the next week. I've been a victim of a nefarious scheme that I literally taught to my gang as a previous character. This is a roleplaying game.

Personally, I believe the benefit of giving players closure to deaths that 'appear' lame, due to the nature of the game's secrecy outweighs the temptation of robbing yourself of fun by metagaming. Those temptations are all over the game. There are such temptations every time we play in conflicting regions. In the example mentioned above about befriending dwarves. What if you're the killer who did the kill. If you were to die next day from crit failing climb while fighting a rat. You wont feel like creating a dwarf who'd join Salarr either. What's the difference between the killer, or the victim? Both have the same meta knowledge, both are players of a roleplaying game that requires a certain level of an ability of character separation. Without that ability, playing the game is an exercise of self-torture and consistent disappointment.

But if the ability to get that closure would prevent even a single rage quit, or just that sensation of hollow emptiness and disappointment when your story ends and you dont even know if it was any kind of a worthwhile story that did it, then it would be worth it. The killers themselves would also be extra motivated to make deaths interesting, because they know their victims are there, watching their story end.

oggotale

  • Posts: 112
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2019, 07:21:35 AM »
I honestly dont get it. I mean, we're platying a game where you can be in a gang and concoct a masterplan of kidnapping a noble's concubine one week and then be the loyal servant of that noble the next week. I've been a victim of a nefarious scheme that I literally taught to my gang as a previous character. This is a roleplaying game.

Personally, I believe the benefit of giving players closure to deaths that 'appear' lame, due to the nature of the game's secrecy outweighs the temptation of robbing yourself of fun by metagaming. Those temptations are all over the game. There are such temptations every time we play in conflicting regions. In the example mentioned above about befriending dwarves. What if you're the killer who did the kill. If you were to die next day from crit failing climb while fighting a rat. You wont feel like creating a dwarf who'd join Salarr either. What's the difference between the killer, or the victim? Both have the same meta knowledge, both are players of a roleplaying game that requires a certain level of an ability of character separation. Without that ability, playing the game is an exercise of self-torture and consistent disappointment.

But if the ability to get that closure would prevent even a single rage quit, or just that sensation of hollow emptiness and disappointment when your story ends and you dont even know if it was any kind of a worthwhile story that did it, then it would be worth it. The killers themselves would also be extra motivated to make deaths interesting, because they know their victims are there, watching their story end.

I see you're point, I'm not arguing that all meta-knowledge is absolutely terrible and should be uncompromisingly opposed to the best extent possible. Some is inevitable, and sometimes meta-knowledge is good, especially when it already exists for a portion of the players and information is VERY asymmetric (I won't get into this here though) and also especially when it comes to trivial things, and many other cases. But I feel that in a lot of cases (including this) meta-knowledge breaks immersion and fun, especially when, like in this case, that meta-knowledge has to do with plot information and doesn't have to do with things like the code and basic, general, facts (NPC buy limits etc). Sure you're going to have some leaks and some asymmetric meta-knowledge, but it seems to be better to minimize these, than make everything fair and equal access.

I don't see how you don't find allowing access to meta-knowledge related to all deaths a terrible idea, there are benefits to closure yes, but really these costs are huge! Both with respect to the player and other actors, for the player, you might get access to sensitive bits of plot info, the secrecy of which makes the plot captivating (it's like finding out the end of a book in the middle, a spoiler) and you'll lose immersion in the process, for the actor, you might have the player go on to be tempted to internalize this secrecy in his actions that undermine your otherwise cool plot.

That's what makes ignorance of this sort of meta-knowledge so important to me, I enjoy game a lot more when I don't have the faintest idea what cool shit the sorcerers that hypothetically exist can actually do in specific, and the lore behind their powers, I don't gain much by not knowing some odd, widely known, robotic, fact wrt to twinking that everyone already internalizes (such meta-knowledge doesn't matter, I'm not making a case that it should be minimized too).

Maybe I just haven't had enough stupid deaths.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 07:28:51 AM by oggotale »

oggotale

  • Posts: 112
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2019, 07:28:01 AM »
del

Eyeball

  • Posts: 1066
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2019, 02:35:24 PM »
the risk of abuse of people gleaning the extra OOC knowledge this might provide

Personally, I believe the benefit of giving players closure to deaths that 'appear' lame, due to the nature of the game's secrecy outweighs the temptation of robbing yourself of fun by metagaming.

What metagaming do you see is going to happen if my proposal is put into the game?

The dying person can't directly look at anyone, so he can't unmask his attacker(s). Presumably he at least got a "the hooded figure wearing a demon mask stabs you in the back!" message before he went down anyhow.

He can't Way anyone.

He can't shout for attention or help.

He can be finished off by a next strike if the killer wants it done in a hurry. There even could be a 'no mercy for the dying' flag added, if people think it's necessary.

The killer is under no obligation to emote or speak after the victim falls.

The victim really isn't going to collect any more information than he'd have as things are now, unless the killers allow it.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 05:24:41 PM by Eyeball »

PriestlySiren

  • Posts: 938
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2019, 06:47:00 PM »


The above is what I would want to do.

X-D

  • Posts: 5649
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2019, 01:08:49 AM »
So....I once got PK'd...a long time ago...and the method used is/was actually bugged.

My PC was dead, showed as corpse etc...even to me. But...I was still there.

east "You cannot move you are dead." look "you cannot do that you are dead" Emote lays here dead "You cannot do that you are dead."

So, I got to see the aftermath...It was really cool.

Only problem was...quit "You cannot do that you are dead" quit die "you cannot do that you are dead"

Drop connection worked.

After that, I have always been for suggestions that allow you to stay IG for say 2-5 RL minutes after death.
You can do nothing...cept maybe Bio...and see only what might actually be visible in the room, use no commands...and if worried about abuse, make it something that only happens when with karma.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Alesan

  • Posts: 313
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2019, 01:39:27 AM »
On the off chance that this idea was actually implemented and karma-gated, I'm guessing it would be gated behind 3+ karma.


I'd rather it just not be a thing at all, in that case. Karma players already enjoy plenty of benefits.

X-D

  • Posts: 5649
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2019, 03:42:51 AM »
Why?

People with any karma at all would not abuse such a thing. Too big a risk for too little gain.

A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job