Author Topic: Disembodied souls. Idea  (Read 1241 times)

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Disembodied souls. Idea
« on: May 07, 2019, 06:25:04 PM »
It would be cool, if when you die (nope I didnít die yet), that you could actually observe the room your body is in as a ghost for a little bit, to see how folks react to your death.

Say you die in a pitched battle with a critter and your friends barely survive and you died, you could technically attend your last rights.  Or watch all the women cry who will never get to mudsex you when they visit your body on the pile.

How I would do it is tether your perspective to the room with the body in it, and make you unable to speak or be seen but just observe.

I think it would be cool closure and neat to see what happens after you kick it.

What do you think?
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Alesan

  • Posts: 313
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2019, 06:27:18 PM »
It's an interesting idea that's been suggested and turned down already before. People seem happy with the fact that when you die, you don't get to see the immediate reaction. You're supposed to forget it and move on to a new character.

mansa

  • Posts: 9680
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2019, 09:07:01 PM »
My opinion on the matter is:

I'd like to have a room that you go to, after you die.  You can't talk or emote.  You -can- use the OOC command, and the BIO command.  You cannot wish.
It's a calm room, or a cooling off room.  You can stay there as long as you want to, but when you leave you can't come back.

Basically, I'd like it when the players are forced to stop playing their character, there still is one more step before we kick them out of the game.

It also allows the players some agency on when they decide to stop playing, since we rely on them typing 'quit' rather than the game forcing you off.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 09:08:50 PM by mansa »
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oggotale

  • Posts: 112
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2019, 11:05:49 PM »
My opinion on the matter is:

I'd like to have a room that you go to, after you die.  You can't talk or emote.  You -can- use the OOC command, and the BIO command.  You cannot wish.
It's a calm room, or a cooling off room.  You can stay there as long as you want to, but when you leave you can't come back.

Basically, I'd like it when the players are forced to stop playing their character, there still is one more step before we kick them out of the game.

It also allows the players some agency on when they decide to stop playing, since we rely on them typing 'quit' rather than the game forcing you off.

I agree, this would be very nice to have! Seeing your body is problematic because of the possibility of sensitive information.
But, it'd be cool to just sit around in an area, even if it's totally OOC, to look through your skills/equipment/items one last time before you hop off to new pastures.

PriestlySiren

  • Posts: 938
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2019, 11:21:36 PM »
Nah fam.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10363
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2019, 11:24:03 PM »
Implement this and make it so you can scream for the sweet release of death if you get brought back as undead.
Also, I like my cootch to have a pert pink color and nice smell. Knowing my luck I would bonk someone with AIDs, get rotten box, and die miserable.

Alesan

  • Posts: 313
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2019, 11:49:31 PM »
Admittedly, I have always found it severely offputting that you're disconnected as you die, shoving you out and cutting you off from the game abruptly. But I don't know what else there would be.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2019, 01:32:42 AM »
Implement this and make it so you can scream for the sweet release of death if you get brought back as undead.

Would be cool if you could be reanimated by an evil sorcerer.
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ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5311
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2019, 08:57:54 AM »
I'm meh about this. I just don't think it'll be enough and that it'll open a whole can of worms we're not prepared to deal with. I played a Sun Runner once. The player of one of the characters she duped eventually made a Sun Runner, stalked my gdb name and asked how my character really felt about theirs. They may have been okay with it like they claimed but I know it can't have felt good for them to hear that they meant nothing and were just a toy. Imagine fresh off death seeing the rejoicing in all the people you thought loved you?

This also would only work in instances where your death was in front of people en masse, you can't really expect to watch for IC weeks on end every person your character had something with.

I talked about closure in another thread. I don't really find the suddenness of the mantis head off putting, I'm rarely angered by a death but  despite my want for a greater form of closure for players sake (it REALLY could only help the game and prevent players from walking away) I *do* think it would satisfy my curiosity to "follow my corpse around" until it disintegrates, provided players take the corpse. I'd love to see all the people who were faking loving mine rejoice over my character's death. I'm a special kind of Zalanthan sick though, I crave that MCB.

Do I need this? Meh.
Would I use it? Hell yeah.
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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Veselka

  • Posts: 997
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2019, 12:02:52 PM »
I think this is antithetical to the permadeath nature of the game. Just as in life, if you die suddenly, you don't know why, get an explanation, or get to see everyone dance on your grave or cry their eyes out.

You can add biographies to your PCs after their death by logging in to the Armageddon website.

This only would create issues of IC/OOC separation, which is already difficult enough for almost everyone to handle at times, and I don't see any benefits to a function like this beyond self-service and satiating curiosity. I believe other MUDs have similar functions to this -- But they aren't RPIs, and I think it cheapens the stakes of permanent death if you can 'survive' death as a Ghost, even briefly.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 12:32:48 PM »
I think this is antithetical to the permadeath nature of the game. Just as in life, if you die suddenly, you don't know why, get an explanation, or get to see everyone dance on your grave or cry their eyes out.

You can add biographies to your PCs after their death by logging in to the Armageddon website.

This only would create issues of IC/OOC separation, which is already difficult enough for almost everyone to handle at times, and I don't see any benefits to a function like this beyond self-service and satiating curiosity. I believe other MUDs have similar functions to this -- But they aren't RPIs, and I think it cheapens the stakes of permanent death if you can 'survive' death as a Ghost, even briefly.

Wrong because ghost hunters...

But seriously nobody really knows what happens when you die.

Maybe you are aware of shit going on, who knows?
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Riev

  • Posts: 5469
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2019, 01:16:28 PM »
And yet that is still not a valid reason to implement it into the game.


When you die, you're dead. That's it. I've had a few VERY bitter deaths that I would have liked some sort of "wtf why?" to it, but that is up to staff to determine the details.

Other than Mansa's "You can type score/skills/bio but that's about it" room, which I would enjoy just so I'm not suddenly ejected from the Matrix, this is a permadeath game.

Slightly off topic: The past 3 weeks have seen this Code Discussion board filled with ideas and suggestions not on how to "improve the game", but how to "change the entire theme of the game". A lot of them, like OP, have been discussed within the past year. What is going on?
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Veselka

  • Posts: 997
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2019, 01:33:37 PM »
Cerelum is playing the game again. I appreciate his enthusiasm but he tends to do this when he comes back. Itís all in good fun?
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2019, 02:09:19 PM »
...
Slightly off topic: The past 3 weeks have seen this Code Discussion board filled with ideas and suggestions not on how to "improve the game", but how to "change the entire theme of the game". A lot of them, like OP, have been discussed within the past year. What is going on?
Ultimately, we are just tossing ideas out there and hoping someone with the power will adopt them.

Lots of ideas that were once upon thought of as NEVER GONNA HAPPEN, have happened.

Skill levels showing.
Contact starting at Master
Symbol command for spellcasting
- and tons more.

Nobody is saying to change the theme of the game, you still can do what you've always done.  But if you don't recommend shit, or toss out ideas, how will anyone but the handful of coders ever make a change?

Do you think it was just some random coder who came up with every breakthrough code change?  Do you think the staff had no input from the people who actually play the game?

And aside from all that, even if we never can become a ghost and see the moments after our death, and it in fact one day turns to your death room, where you can finish up bios, look at your skills and then ultimately quit out as Mansa said?  He posted that here, in this crazy idea, and maybe it will stick?

Now some of the shit about elves riding in wagons and shit, yeah that's changing the theme, and maybe it belongs in world discussion or something, but why shit on it anyways?

The theme changes in this game.  Use to be mantis players, halfling players, full elementalists.  Mul spellcasters and so many more and now there aren't, because the theme changed.

Don't be so fearful of change you shit on ever idea.

However staff decide what to add, what to change etc. Be it picking outta a hat, asking the guy/girl who pays the bills for the game, if there is an owner of the game who ultimately has sway or however they mandate what happens, they will continue to make those calls.

I could throw an idea that a new race of slug people or whatever armageddon reborn had and if they make it into the game, the staff chose to.

It's not our job as players to shit on one another's ideas.
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Riev

  • Posts: 5469
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2019, 02:25:24 PM »
I thought my question to just be a "Where are all these discussions coming from, asking for changes".

The pointed fact being, it is two people constantly asking for changes, and then being resistant to pushback.

Some of your ideas, Cerelum, I've thought are really great. It just seems like a lot all at once. This particular post was talked about pretty recently though.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2019, 02:36:10 PM »
I thought my question to just be a "Where are all these discussions coming from, asking for changes".

The pointed fact being, it is two people constantly asking for changes, and then being resistant to pushback.

Some of your ideas, Cerelum, I've thought are really great. It just seems like a lot all at once. This particular post was talked about pretty recently though.

Fair enough.  I admit my searching of the board is shit.

But ultimately if posts are coming and they arenít trolling or breaking the rules, who cares?

Would you rather have an inactive board or one thatís active?
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Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



Veselka

  • Posts: 997
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2019, 03:12:53 PM »
You're correct in saying that many ideas implemented in the game have come from player suggestion or ideas.

You're incorrect in saying (and thinking) that every idea should be agreed with or that it is the player's responsibility to support ideas posted on the GDB. It's a discussion board, and by that virtue, we (as players and Staff) can present counter arguments to any idea regardless of its perceived merit, particularly the merit the OP believes is intrinsic to the idea.

Things like...Change Mood, were implemented after being posted about on the GDB.

In essence, I don't think you are wrong to post ideas. But half-baked ideas or concepts that others don't think are suitable to the setting may be shot full of holes. Other ideas like 'Don't have look echo to everyone in the room' have gained traction through the GDB and eventually been changed in the game. Or things like 'Make all gate rooms quit rooms', and so on. The list is quite extensive. In fact many of the Quality of Life updates in the thread Nessalin posted have been enacted in the last couple of years. Staff definitely at least appears to read the GDB and take a ball and run with it, if they think it's something worth taking up.

Keep in mind -- We aren't shitting on your ideas for the sake of shitting on them. It's a rather passionate community, and when someone sees ideas being posted that they think go against the spirit of the game, they will likely express that opinion strongly. Whether or not they are tactful about it, or weightily consider your point of view, well. Mileage varies. I like to think most people aren't shitposting just for the sake of it.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 03:14:49 PM by Veselka »
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Bebop

  • Posts: 3920
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2019, 03:44:22 PM »
1) I am against OP's WOW-esque ghost idea due to sensitive IG info

2) I am FOR Mansa's cool down room idea.  Not only is it kind, sometimes death happens so abruptly IG you're like did I just get kicked... wait.  Did I die?!  A room like this would be nice.  I do think a wish up command could be useful for it though.

3) I agree with Riev that not every idea that enters your head needs to be a thread.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2019, 04:16:15 PM »
1) I am against OP's WOW-esque ghost idea due to sensitive IG info

Do people actually still play wow?
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Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



Veselka

  • Posts: 997
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2019, 05:22:07 PM »
1) I am against OP's WOW-esque ghost idea due to sensitive IG info

Do people actually still play wow?

Millions of people still play, heh.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

mansa

  • Posts: 9680
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2019, 07:23:18 PM »
...
2) I am FOR Mansa's cool down room idea.  Not only is it kind, sometimes death happens so abruptly IG you're like did I just get kicked... wait.  Did I die?!  A room like this would be nice.  I do think a wish up command could be useful for it though.

..

I put that wish was disabled because .... I fear that people would use the wish command to try and ask for a resurrection.

Since wishes go up into the void and we don't get a read receipt, I think distraught people would spam and complain and yell during a very high emotional period when their characters get killed.

I thought leaving the ooc command enabled would be a nice take away, as you may be able to communicate, just in a limited audience to immortals who can goto "the calm down exit room"

I just don't know how much effort is required for this code change, as it changes the underlying way characters are handled in Diku.  I'm guessing a lot.
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Veselka

  • Posts: 997
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2019, 08:02:14 PM »
...
2) I am FOR Mansa's cool down room idea.  Not only is it kind, sometimes death happens so abruptly IG you're like did I just get kicked... wait.  Did I die?!  A room like this would be nice.  I do think a wish up command could be useful for it though.

..

I put that wish was disabled because .... I fear that people would use the wish command to try and ask for a resurrection.

Since wishes go up into the void and we don't get a read receipt, I think distraught people would spam and complain and yell during a very high emotional period when their characters get killed.

I thought leaving the ooc command enabled would be a nice take away, as you may be able to communicate, just in a limited audience to immortals who can goto "the calm down exit room"

I just don't know how much effort is required for this code change, as it changes the underlying way characters are handled in Diku.  I'm guessing a lot.

It would also beg the question of -- can you see other people in the room with you?

I guess I've been alright with the mantis head for so long, I don't see the catharsis or reason for an OOC room to be chilling in after you're dead, unless it was purely OOC, you couldn't see other 'dead' people around you, and you could just add bios. But you can do that on the website remotely already.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Cabooze

  • Posts: 286
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2019, 08:57:54 PM »
...
2) I am FOR Mansa's cool down room idea.  Not only is it kind, sometimes death happens so abruptly IG you're like did I just get kicked... wait.  Did I die?!  A room like this would be nice.  I do think a wish up command could be useful for it though.

..

I put that wish was disabled because .... I fear that people would use the wish command to try and ask for a resurrection.

Since wishes go up into the void and we don't get a read receipt, I think distraught people would spam and complain and yell during a very high emotional period when their characters get killed.

I thought leaving the ooc command enabled would be a nice take away, as you may be able to communicate, just in a limited audience to immortals who can goto "the calm down exit room"

I just don't know how much effort is required for this code change, as it changes the underlying way characters are handled in Diku.  I'm guessing a lot.

It probably wouldn't require a whole ton of work staff-side to get this done, being that aspects of this already exist ingame with the ethereal realm. All it might require is for staff to anchor someone sent into the ethereal after dying (instead of having a section of the gameworld made to facilitate this), to their body, and have the mantis-head determined by either you quitting out, or your head getting chopped off. Could open the avenue of ingame resurrections via nasty magick and fun plots.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 09:02:50 PM by Cabooze »

Namino

  • Posts: 437
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2019, 09:02:01 PM »
...
2) I am FOR Mansa's cool down room idea.  Not only is it kind, sometimes death happens so abruptly IG you're like did I just get kicked... wait.  Did I die?!  A room like this would be nice.  I do think a wish up command could be useful for it though.

..

I put that wish was disabled because .... I fear that people would use the wish command to try and ask for a resurrection.

Since wishes go up into the void and we don't get a read receipt, I think distraught people would spam and complain and yell during a very high emotional period when their characters get killed.

I thought leaving the ooc command enabled would be a nice take away, as you may be able to communicate, just in a limited audience to immortals who can goto "the calm down exit room"

I just don't know how much effort is required for this code change, as it changes the underlying way characters are handled in Diku.  I'm guessing a lot.

It probably wouldn't require a whole ton of work staff-side to get this done, being that aspects of this already exist ingame with the ethereal realm. All it might require is for staff to anchor someone sent into the ethereal after dying, to their body, and have the mantis-head determined by either you quitting out, or your head getting chopped off. Could open the avenue of ingame resurrections via nasty magick and fun plots.

I think it's fairly pointless to speculate on what would and wouldn't be a lot of work. The issue with Armageddon is that it's 30 years old and has passed through the hands of dozens of coders by now, probably. Presumably, early systems were used as foundations for later systems, which call aspects of other systems. Changing something like where a character goes when they die might obliterate 50 tangentially related systems that rely on a variable of that system and can't process the new state of affairs.

Or it could be very easy as you say. But I wouldn't consider designating something not "a whole ton of work" without being able to see what things actually are.

mansa

  • Posts: 9680
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2019, 10:49:33 PM »
...I guess I've been alright with the mantis head for so long, I don't see the catharsis or reason for an OOC room to be chilling in after you're dead, unless it was purely OOC, you couldn't see other 'dead' people around you, and you could just add bios. But you can do that on the website remotely already.

Currently, this happens when your character dies:
#1 - You get removed from the game world
#2 - You get placed in the Main Menu of ArmageddonMUD (with the Mantis head or without, depending if you have brief menus enabled)
#3 - You get an exit email stating "Sorry your character died.  You can view your bios here.  I hope to see you again soon!"

This thread was originally made to answer some unanswered questions:
a) how did I die?
b) why did I die?
c) what happened next in the story?
d) closure.

The players never really get to have these questions answered.  This game is a living creature, and every player invests energy and time into keeping it alive.   But not knowing everything, or why things happen, tend to help against the downside of an intensive roleplaying game - griefing, metagaming.


I think there are ways to improve how the game exits the player.   We could polish up the exit email that is sent.  We could change how the game disconnects you.  We could modify how many hitpoints your character has to increase situations of "mostly dead, but not quite all the way dead'.  We could force it so characters can only be killed by typing a special command (>murder character)

I feel they all stem from the problems listed above - closure to the stories we write.  The game is designed this way, and we all play knowing that we won't get closure, but we still long for it.  Maybe we just need more reminders, and to use the tools that we have to preserve what stories we currently have going on, and to appreciate the cool adventures.

ps write more bios.
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Dar

  • Posts: 1412
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2019, 11:54:54 PM »
I personally love the idea.

It brings closure to players and allows them to catch the last glimpse of closing plot of their character. What are the negatives? That the player will find out who killed them and avenge his murder? I mean if we're so distrustful of our own playerbase, then why are we even pretending that this is a roleplaying enforced mud.

Veselka

  • Posts: 997
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2019, 12:51:59 AM »
I would argue that the lack of closure is part of what makes ArmageddonMUD, well, ArmageddonMUD.

I respect the difference of opinion and the speculation, but I would be about 95% opposed to this being implemented.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Namino

  • Posts: 437
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2019, 12:55:38 AM »
Armageddon MUD does have the most abrupt dump to menu ending of any game ever, tbh. Even the original Rogue from which all Roguelikes get their name had this:



I don't know if I like it or not the way it is in Armageddon. This is merely an observation that as far as abrupt severance from your character, nothing is more sudden that Arm.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9791
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2019, 01:20:29 AM »
When a PC dies in multiplayer mode, they enter a single-player port of the MUD.  You can play single-player mode until your PC dies in single-player, or you submit a new multiplayer mode PC.

In single-player mode, there's a scoreboard that keeps track of kill counts, 'sid earned, total skill points achieved, rooms explored, days survived in single-player mode.  Single-player is pure hack-and-slash.  Certain areas of the game are removed and/or dumbed-down for secrecy purposes.

Fight me.
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Namino

  • Posts: 437
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2019, 01:22:48 AM »
When a PC dies in multiplayer mode, they enter a single-player port of the MUD.  You can play single-player mode until your PC dies in single-player, or you submit a new multiplayer mode PC.

In single-player mode, there's a scoreboard that keeps track of kill counts, 'sid earned, total skill points achieved, rooms explored, days survived in single-player mode.  Single-player is pure hack-and-slash.  Certain areas of the game are removed and/or dumbed-down for secrecy purposes.

Fight me.

Fine.

Single-player mode doubles as the test server so all the recently dead players can test code changes staff have implemented before they go live.

oggotale

  • Posts: 112
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2019, 04:02:23 AM »
I personally love the idea.

It brings closure to players and allows them to catch the last glimpse of closing plot of their character. What are the negatives? That the player will find out who killed them and avenge his murder? I mean if we're so distrustful of our own playerbase, then why are we even pretending that this is a roleplaying enforced mud.

Nobodies perfect, these sort of things incite MG, even if MG isn't consciously done right.

It's sort of like stumbling on spoilers, if you say, find out that you were killed because of some plot X, like your boss eliminating you because you did something he didn't like (which was not against the ICly taught clan rules), say, this was getting friendly with a dwarf. If you join that clan with another char next time, you might be tempted to not do that thing, even if all IC incentives push you to do so (and you haven't just decided to app in a dwarf-hating char this time).

If I imagine this situation happening to me, I'd certainly be tempted to not not befriend dwarves on my otherwise standard character (regardless of his past).

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2019, 10:05:38 AM »
It all comes down to trust unfortunately, I wouldnít abuse my ooc knowledge that you murdered me. But I could see folks getting all butthurt and trying to create some revenge dwarf raider/combat magick sorcerer hybrid to come after you. (I joke I hope nobody with three karma would be that petty)

But I donít think you should always disallow things because of the potential of abuse.  Otherwise you just disallow everything.
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Riev

  • Posts: 5469
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2019, 11:34:26 AM »
It all comes down to trust unfortunately, I wouldnít abuse my ooc knowledge that you murdered me. But I could see folks getting all butthurt and trying to create some revenge dwarf raider/combat magick sorcerer hybrid to come after you. (I joke I hope nobody with three karma would be that petty)

But I donít think you should always disallow things because of the potential of abuse.  Otherwise you just disallow everything.

As mentioned before, it may not even be intentional abuse of OOC knowledge.

If you know your Salarri boss killed you because you were a dwarf, I bet you PROBABLY aren't going to create any more dwarf PCs that will interact with that guy. That's metagamed knowledge influencing your play.

If you saw that your mate was the one that killed you, and planned it with your best friend, its going to be REAL hard to play around them and not react differently. Maybe you can, but why tempt that situation?

I think there are better avenues to closure than "Strike me down but I'll still get to see what happened teehee"
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Cabooze

  • Posts: 286
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2019, 06:02:21 PM »
It all comes down to trust unfortunately, I wouldnít abuse my ooc knowledge that you murdered me. But I could see folks getting all butthurt and trying to create some revenge dwarf raider/combat magick sorcerer hybrid to come after you. (I joke I hope nobody with three karma would be that petty)

But I donít think you should always disallow things because of the potential of abuse.  Otherwise you just disallow everything.

As mentioned before, it may not even be intentional abuse of OOC knowledge.

If you know your Salarri boss killed you because you were a dwarf, I bet you PROBABLY aren't going to create any more dwarf PCs that will interact with that guy. That's metagamed knowledge influencing your play.

If you saw that your mate was the one that killed you, and planned it with your best friend, its going to be REAL hard to play around them and not react differently. Maybe you can, but why tempt that situation?

I think there are better avenues to closure than "Strike me down but I'll still get to see what happened teehee"

I feel like a good way to get around this worry of players metagaming about previous characters after witnessing their death, would be to lock becoming a ghost or something similar behind a karma-wall or an extra flag that staff applies to your account because they know you can handle it.

Delirium

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2019, 06:11:29 PM »
At that point we get cries of favoritism and it creates division. Well, even moreso I suppose.

The brutal finality of death is one of the best worst parts of Armageddon. It seems best to leave it unchanged.
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

Eyeball

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2019, 06:47:01 PM »
How about this as a compromise.

If you get knocked to zero or less hitpoints, you become helpless, as now. "Stunned"/"Mortally wounded"

If you get knocked to below -10 hitpoints, you are going to die without magickal intervention. "Dying". Bandaging won't help. You are on a timer. Say half a minute.

However, unless your stun points are at zero, you can still see and hear events around you. You can emote and speak and whisper, but not use any other command.

But! If your foes don't want to allow you that half a minute, they can strike again to end it. Any hit once you're below -10 hp is an instant end.

Hopefully that could let people play out their death scenes now and then.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 06:53:22 PM by Eyeball »

PriestlySiren

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2019, 11:35:16 PM »
How about this as a compromise.

If you get knocked to zero or less hitpoints, you become helpless, as now. "Stunned"/"Mortally wounded"

If you get knocked to below -10 hitpoints, you are going to die without magickal intervention. "Dying". Bandaging won't help. You are on a timer. Say half a minute.

However, unless your stun points are at zero, you can still see and hear events around you. You can emote and speak and whisper, but not use any other command.

But! If your foes don't want to allow you that half a minute, they can strike again to end it. Any hit once you're below -10 hp is an instant end.

Hopefully that could let people play out their death scenes now and then.

I like this. I would have loved to give out some death rattles or spit out blood on my enemies.

Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2019, 12:10:31 AM »
Disable shout and the way and I'd be down with this. Shout because it'd be jarring to have a guy screaming while smothering on their own blood. The way because if it wasn't disabled people would just execute the finishing move anyway, more often than not, I suspect.
You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

triste

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2019, 12:20:33 AM »
While I like this idea I ultimately agree with what Veselka said here:

I would argue that the lack of closure is part of what makes ArmageddonMUD, well, ArmageddonMUD.

And what this means to me is that it is realistic. When you're dead, you're dead. There were of course theories after the invention of the guillotine that the brain lives for 30 seconds after decapitation but now scientists are thinking it's closer to 3 seconds. Given that time is compressed in Armageddon, that translates to... a few milliseconds in our time, basically no time at all. Life is pretty fragile and I've had enough loved ones die to know that when you die (or become unconscious shortly before dying) there are rarely opportunities for dramatic last words and there is no opportunity to look flowery as you die. Often you just die and become a corpse, an object. When other characters see someone die in game, they can generally fill in what the dying looked like when they hear that beep.

Again, I love the idea but I worry [1] the risk of abuse of people gleaning the extra OOC knowledge this might provide and [2] the fact that a lot of assassins / beasts will just deliver the ultimate death blow to hasten the process anyway, probably knowing people will just misuse any OOC knowledge while they are in the "almost dead but not really dead" state. Realism should outweigh narrative potential here. The horror and lack of closure around death IRL and IG is what makes us all want to avoid it. Part of what is so disturbing about death is that life just ends, consciousness just ends, it is often out of people's control, and it can be quick, brutal, unforgiving.

Namino

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2019, 12:31:10 AM »
Shout because it'd be jarring to have a guy screaming while smothering on their own blood.

On the other hand we could have one of these:


AdamBlue

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2019, 02:53:24 AM »
How about this as a compromise.

If you get knocked to zero or less hitpoints, you become helpless, as now. "Stunned"/"Mortally wounded"

If you get knocked to below -10 hitpoints, you are going to die without magickal intervention. "Dying". Bandaging won't help. You are on a timer. Say half a minute.

However, unless your stun points are at zero, you can still see and hear events around you. You can emote and speak and whisper, but not use any other command.

But! If your foes don't want to allow you that half a minute, they can strike again to end it. Any hit once you're below -10 hp is an instant end.

Hopefully that could let people play out their death scenes now and then.

Limit your ability to speak to the 'whisper' command.

azuriolinist

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2019, 04:00:13 AM »
How about this as a compromise.

If you get knocked to zero or less hitpoints, you become helpless, as now. "Stunned"/"Mortally wounded"

If you get knocked to below -10 hitpoints, you are going to die without magickal intervention. "Dying". Bandaging won't help. You are on a timer. Say half a minute.

However, unless your stun points are at zero, you can still see and hear events around you. You can emote and speak and whisper, but not use any other command.

But! If your foes don't want to allow you that half a minute, they can strike again to end it. Any hit once you're below -10 hp is an instant end.

Hopefully that could let people play out their death scenes now and then.

I'd be all for this. I've always wished for more ability to roleplay out one's death. That's made difficult when it's impossible to see or hear anything that's going on.

Dar

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2019, 04:17:41 AM »
I honestly dont get it. I mean, we're platying a game where you can be in a gang and concoct a masterplan of kidnapping a noble's concubine one week and then be the loyal servant of that noble the next week. I've been a victim of a nefarious scheme that I literally taught to my gang as a previous character. This is a roleplaying game.

Personally, I believe the benefit of giving players closure to deaths that 'appear' lame, due to the nature of the game's secrecy outweighs the temptation of robbing yourself of fun by metagaming. Those temptations are all over the game. There are such temptations every time we play in conflicting regions. In the example mentioned above about befriending dwarves. What if you're the killer who did the kill. If you were to die next day from crit failing climb while fighting a rat. You wont feel like creating a dwarf who'd join Salarr either. What's the difference between the killer, or the victim? Both have the same meta knowledge, both are players of a roleplaying game that requires a certain level of an ability of character separation. Without that ability, playing the game is an exercise of self-torture and consistent disappointment.

But if the ability to get that closure would prevent even a single rage quit, or just that sensation of hollow emptiness and disappointment when your story ends and you dont even know if it was any kind of a worthwhile story that did it, then it would be worth it. The killers themselves would also be extra motivated to make deaths interesting, because they know their victims are there, watching their story end.

oggotale

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2019, 07:21:35 AM »
I honestly dont get it. I mean, we're platying a game where you can be in a gang and concoct a masterplan of kidnapping a noble's concubine one week and then be the loyal servant of that noble the next week. I've been a victim of a nefarious scheme that I literally taught to my gang as a previous character. This is a roleplaying game.

Personally, I believe the benefit of giving players closure to deaths that 'appear' lame, due to the nature of the game's secrecy outweighs the temptation of robbing yourself of fun by metagaming. Those temptations are all over the game. There are such temptations every time we play in conflicting regions. In the example mentioned above about befriending dwarves. What if you're the killer who did the kill. If you were to die next day from crit failing climb while fighting a rat. You wont feel like creating a dwarf who'd join Salarr either. What's the difference between the killer, or the victim? Both have the same meta knowledge, both are players of a roleplaying game that requires a certain level of an ability of character separation. Without that ability, playing the game is an exercise of self-torture and consistent disappointment.

But if the ability to get that closure would prevent even a single rage quit, or just that sensation of hollow emptiness and disappointment when your story ends and you dont even know if it was any kind of a worthwhile story that did it, then it would be worth it. The killers themselves would also be extra motivated to make deaths interesting, because they know their victims are there, watching their story end.

I see you're point, I'm not arguing that all meta-knowledge is absolutely terrible and should be uncompromisingly opposed to the best extent possible. Some is inevitable, and sometimes meta-knowledge is good, especially when it already exists for a portion of the players and information is VERY asymmetric (I won't get into this here though) and also especially when it comes to trivial things, and many other cases. But I feel that in a lot of cases (including this) meta-knowledge breaks immersion and fun, especially when, like in this case, that meta-knowledge has to do with plot information and doesn't have to do with things like the code and basic, general, facts (NPC buy limits etc). Sure you're going to have some leaks and some asymmetric meta-knowledge, but it seems to be better to minimize these, than make everything fair and equal access.

I don't see how you don't find allowing access to meta-knowledge related to all deaths a terrible idea, there are benefits to closure yes, but really these costs are huge! Both with respect to the player and other actors, for the player, you might get access to sensitive bits of plot info, the secrecy of which makes the plot captivating (it's like finding out the end of a book in the middle, a spoiler) and you'll lose immersion in the process, for the actor, you might have the player go on to be tempted to internalize this secrecy in his actions that undermine your otherwise cool plot.

That's what makes ignorance of this sort of meta-knowledge so important to me, I enjoy game a lot more when I don't have the faintest idea what cool shit the sorcerers that hypothetically exist can actually do in specific, and the lore behind their powers, I don't gain much by not knowing some odd, widely known, robotic, fact wrt to twinking that everyone already internalizes (such meta-knowledge doesn't matter, I'm not making a case that it should be minimized too).

Maybe I just haven't had enough stupid deaths.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 07:28:51 AM by oggotale »

oggotale

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2019, 07:28:01 AM »
del

Eyeball

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2019, 02:35:24 PM »
the risk of abuse of people gleaning the extra OOC knowledge this might provide

Personally, I believe the benefit of giving players closure to deaths that 'appear' lame, due to the nature of the game's secrecy outweighs the temptation of robbing yourself of fun by metagaming.

What metagaming do you see is going to happen if my proposal is put into the game?

The dying person can't directly look at anyone, so he can't unmask his attacker(s). Presumably he at least got a "the hooded figure wearing a demon mask stabs you in the back!" message before he went down anyhow.

He can't Way anyone.

He can't shout for attention or help.

He can be finished off by a next strike if the killer wants it done in a hurry. There even could be a 'no mercy for the dying' flag added, if people think it's necessary.

The killer is under no obligation to emote or speak after the victim falls.

The victim really isn't going to collect any more information than he'd have as things are now, unless the killers allow it.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 05:24:41 PM by Eyeball »

PriestlySiren

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2019, 06:47:00 PM »


The above is what I would want to do.

X-D

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2019, 01:08:49 AM »
So....I once got PK'd...a long time ago...and the method used is/was actually bugged.

My PC was dead, showed as corpse etc...even to me. But...I was still there.

east "You cannot move you are dead." look "you cannot do that you are dead" Emote lays here dead "You cannot do that you are dead."

So, I got to see the aftermath...It was really cool.

Only problem was...quit "You cannot do that you are dead" quit die "you cannot do that you are dead"

Drop connection worked.

After that, I have always been for suggestions that allow you to stay IG for say 2-5 RL minutes after death.
You can do nothing...cept maybe Bio...and see only what might actually be visible in the room, use no commands...and if worried about abuse, make it something that only happens when with karma.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
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Alesan

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2019, 01:39:27 AM »
On the off chance that this idea was actually implemented and karma-gated, I'm guessing it would be gated behind 3+ karma.


I'd rather it just not be a thing at all, in that case. Karma players already enjoy plenty of benefits.

X-D

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2019, 03:42:51 AM »
Why?

People with any karma at all would not abuse such a thing. Too big a risk for too little gain.

A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Cerelum

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Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2019, 09:05:00 AM »
Karma gates are really not needed in my opinion.

If I could wave a wand I would just allow anyone to app anything and make it up to staff to say yes or no per application.

Just because you played a kick ass social character doesnít mean youíll play a good wind mage or whatever.

I think something from this thread should be adopted, either mansaís death room, or maybe the dying status the other guy proposed.

The darkness and constant hitting of enter while dying to see if your hp is going up or down is not really that great and could be improved on.
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