Author Topic: Disembodied souls. Idea  (Read 759 times)

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2119
Disembodied souls. Idea
« on: May 07, 2019, 06:25:04 PM »
It would be cool, if when you die (nope I didnít die yet), that you could actually observe the room your body is in as a ghost for a little bit, to see how folks react to your death.

Say you die in a pitched battle with a critter and your friends barely survive and you died, you could technically attend your last rights.  Or watch all the women cry who will never get to mudsex you when they visit your body on the pile.

How I would do it is tether your perspective to the room with the body in it, and make you unable to speak or be seen but just observe.

I think it would be cool closure and neat to see what happens after you kick it.

What do you think?
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Alesan

  • Posts: 303
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2019, 06:27:18 PM »
It's an interesting idea that's been suggested and turned down already before. People seem happy with the fact that when you die, you don't get to see the immediate reaction. You're supposed to forget it and move on to a new character.

mansa

  • Posts: 9649
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2019, 09:07:01 PM »
My opinion on the matter is:

I'd like to have a room that you go to, after you die.  You can't talk or emote.  You -can- use the OOC command, and the BIO command.  You cannot wish.
It's a calm room, or a cooling off room.  You can stay there as long as you want to, but when you leave you can't come back.

Basically, I'd like it when the players are forced to stop playing their character, there still is one more step before we kick them out of the game.

It also allows the players some agency on when they decide to stop playing, since we rely on them typing 'quit' rather than the game forcing you off.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 09:08:50 PM by mansa »
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oggotale

  • Posts: 77
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2019, 11:05:49 PM »
My opinion on the matter is:

I'd like to have a room that you go to, after you die.  You can't talk or emote.  You -can- use the OOC command, and the BIO command.  You cannot wish.
It's a calm room, or a cooling off room.  You can stay there as long as you want to, but when you leave you can't come back.

Basically, I'd like it when the players are forced to stop playing their character, there still is one more step before we kick them out of the game.

It also allows the players some agency on when they decide to stop playing, since we rely on them typing 'quit' rather than the game forcing you off.

I agree, this would be very nice to have! Seeing your body is problematic because of the possibility of sensitive information.
But, it'd be cool to just sit around in an area, even if it's totally OOC, to look through your skills/equipment/items one last time before you hop off to new pastures.

PriestlySiren

  • Posts: 917
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2019, 11:21:36 PM »
Nah fam.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10278
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2019, 11:24:03 PM »
Implement this and make it so you can scream for the sweet release of death if you get brought back as undead.
we are here to hack motherfuckers up with bone swords,

Alesan

  • Posts: 303
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2019, 11:49:31 PM »
Admittedly, I have always found it severely offputting that you're disconnected as you die, shoving you out and cutting you off from the game abruptly. But I don't know what else there would be.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2119
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2019, 01:32:42 AM »
Implement this and make it so you can scream for the sweet release of death if you get brought back as undead.

Would be cool if you could be reanimated by an evil sorcerer.
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ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5308
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2019, 08:57:54 AM »
I'm meh about this. I just don't think it'll be enough and that it'll open a whole can of worms we're not prepared to deal with. I played a Sun Runner once. The player of one of the characters she duped eventually made a Sun Runner, stalked my gdb name and asked how my character really felt about theirs. They may have been okay with it like they claimed but I know it can't have felt good for them to hear that they meant nothing and were just a toy. Imagine fresh off death seeing the rejoicing in all the people you thought loved you?

This also would only work in instances where your death was in front of people en masse, you can't really expect to watch for IC weeks on end every person your character had something with.

I talked about closure in another thread. I don't really find the suddenness of the mantis head off putting, I'm rarely angered by a death but  despite my want for a greater form of closure for players sake (it REALLY could only help the game and prevent players from walking away) I *do* think it would satisfy my curiosity to "follow my corpse around" until it disintegrates, provided players take the corpse. I'd love to see all the people who were faking loving mine rejoice over my character's death. I'm a special kind of Zalanthan sick though, I crave that MCB.

Do I need this? Meh.
Would I use it? Hell yeah.
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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Veselka

  • Posts: 928
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2019, 12:02:52 PM »
I think this is antithetical to the permadeath nature of the game. Just as in life, if you die suddenly, you don't know why, get an explanation, or get to see everyone dance on your grave or cry their eyes out.

You can add biographies to your PCs after their death by logging in to the Armageddon website.

This only would create issues of IC/OOC separation, which is already difficult enough for almost everyone to handle at times, and I don't see any benefits to a function like this beyond self-service and satiating curiosity. I believe other MUDs have similar functions to this -- But they aren't RPIs, and I think it cheapens the stakes of permanent death if you can 'survive' death as a Ghost, even briefly.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2119
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 12:32:48 PM »
I think this is antithetical to the permadeath nature of the game. Just as in life, if you die suddenly, you don't know why, get an explanation, or get to see everyone dance on your grave or cry their eyes out.

You can add biographies to your PCs after their death by logging in to the Armageddon website.

This only would create issues of IC/OOC separation, which is already difficult enough for almost everyone to handle at times, and I don't see any benefits to a function like this beyond self-service and satiating curiosity. I believe other MUDs have similar functions to this -- But they aren't RPIs, and I think it cheapens the stakes of permanent death if you can 'survive' death as a Ghost, even briefly.

Wrong because ghost hunters...

But seriously nobody really knows what happens when you die.

Maybe you are aware of shit going on, who knows?
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Riev

  • Posts: 5390
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2019, 01:16:28 PM »
And yet that is still not a valid reason to implement it into the game.


When you die, you're dead. That's it. I've had a few VERY bitter deaths that I would have liked some sort of "wtf why?" to it, but that is up to staff to determine the details.

Other than Mansa's "You can type score/skills/bio but that's about it" room, which I would enjoy just so I'm not suddenly ejected from the Matrix, this is a permadeath game.

Slightly off topic: The past 3 weeks have seen this Code Discussion board filled with ideas and suggestions not on how to "improve the game", but how to "change the entire theme of the game". A lot of them, like OP, have been discussed within the past year. What is going on?
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Veselka

  • Posts: 928
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2019, 01:33:37 PM »
Cerelum is playing the game again. I appreciate his enthusiasm but he tends to do this when he comes back. Itís all in good fun?
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2119
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2019, 02:09:19 PM »
...
Slightly off topic: The past 3 weeks have seen this Code Discussion board filled with ideas and suggestions not on how to "improve the game", but how to "change the entire theme of the game". A lot of them, like OP, have been discussed within the past year. What is going on?
Ultimately, we are just tossing ideas out there and hoping someone with the power will adopt them.

Lots of ideas that were once upon thought of as NEVER GONNA HAPPEN, have happened.

Skill levels showing.
Contact starting at Master
Symbol command for spellcasting
- and tons more.

Nobody is saying to change the theme of the game, you still can do what you've always done.  But if you don't recommend shit, or toss out ideas, how will anyone but the handful of coders ever make a change?

Do you think it was just some random coder who came up with every breakthrough code change?  Do you think the staff had no input from the people who actually play the game?

And aside from all that, even if we never can become a ghost and see the moments after our death, and it in fact one day turns to your death room, where you can finish up bios, look at your skills and then ultimately quit out as Mansa said?  He posted that here, in this crazy idea, and maybe it will stick?

Now some of the shit about elves riding in wagons and shit, yeah that's changing the theme, and maybe it belongs in world discussion or something, but why shit on it anyways?

The theme changes in this game.  Use to be mantis players, halfling players, full elementalists.  Mul spellcasters and so many more and now there aren't, because the theme changed.

Don't be so fearful of change you shit on ever idea.

However staff decide what to add, what to change etc. Be it picking outta a hat, asking the guy/girl who pays the bills for the game, if there is an owner of the game who ultimately has sway or however they mandate what happens, they will continue to make those calls.

I could throw an idea that a new race of slug people or whatever armageddon reborn had and if they make it into the game, the staff chose to.

It's not our job as players to shit on one another's ideas.
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Riev

  • Posts: 5390
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2019, 02:25:24 PM »
I thought my question to just be a "Where are all these discussions coming from, asking for changes".

The pointed fact being, it is two people constantly asking for changes, and then being resistant to pushback.

Some of your ideas, Cerelum, I've thought are really great. It just seems like a lot all at once. This particular post was talked about pretty recently though.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2119
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2019, 02:36:10 PM »
I thought my question to just be a "Where are all these discussions coming from, asking for changes".

The pointed fact being, it is two people constantly asking for changes, and then being resistant to pushback.

Some of your ideas, Cerelum, I've thought are really great. It just seems like a lot all at once. This particular post was talked about pretty recently though.

Fair enough.  I admit my searching of the board is shit.

But ultimately if posts are coming and they arenít trolling or breaking the rules, who cares?

Would you rather have an inactive board or one thatís active?
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Veselka

  • Posts: 928
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2019, 03:12:53 PM »
You're correct in saying that many ideas implemented in the game have come from player suggestion or ideas.

You're incorrect in saying (and thinking) that every idea should be agreed with or that it is the player's responsibility to support ideas posted on the GDB. It's a discussion board, and by that virtue, we (as players and Staff) can present counter arguments to any idea regardless of its perceived merit, particularly the merit the OP believes is intrinsic to the idea.

Things like...Change Mood, were implemented after being posted about on the GDB.

In essence, I don't think you are wrong to post ideas. But half-baked ideas or concepts that others don't think are suitable to the setting may be shot full of holes. Other ideas like 'Don't have look echo to everyone in the room' have gained traction through the GDB and eventually been changed in the game. Or things like 'Make all gate rooms quit rooms', and so on. The list is quite extensive. In fact many of the Quality of Life updates in the thread Nessalin posted have been enacted in the last couple of years. Staff definitely at least appears to read the GDB and take a ball and run with it, if they think it's something worth taking up.

Keep in mind -- We aren't shitting on your ideas for the sake of shitting on them. It's a rather passionate community, and when someone sees ideas being posted that they think go against the spirit of the game, they will likely express that opinion strongly. Whether or not they are tactful about it, or weightily consider your point of view, well. Mileage varies. I like to think most people aren't shitposting just for the sake of it.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 03:14:49 PM by Veselka »
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Bebop

  • Posts: 3882
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2019, 03:44:22 PM »
1) I am against OP's WOW-esque ghost idea due to sensitive IG info

2) I am FOR Mansa's cool down room idea.  Not only is it kind, sometimes death happens so abruptly IG you're like did I just get kicked... wait.  Did I die?!  A room like this would be nice.  I do think a wish up command could be useful for it though.

3) I agree with Riev that not every idea that enters your head needs to be a thread.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2119
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2019, 04:16:15 PM »
1) I am against OP's WOW-esque ghost idea due to sensitive IG info

Do people actually still play wow?
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



Veselka

  • Posts: 928
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2019, 05:22:07 PM »
1) I am against OP's WOW-esque ghost idea due to sensitive IG info

Do people actually still play wow?

Millions of people still play, heh.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

mansa

  • Posts: 9649
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2019, 07:23:18 PM »
...
2) I am FOR Mansa's cool down room idea.  Not only is it kind, sometimes death happens so abruptly IG you're like did I just get kicked... wait.  Did I die?!  A room like this would be nice.  I do think a wish up command could be useful for it though.

..

I put that wish was disabled because .... I fear that people would use the wish command to try and ask for a resurrection.

Since wishes go up into the void and we don't get a read receipt, I think distraught people would spam and complain and yell during a very high emotional period when their characters get killed.

I thought leaving the ooc command enabled would be a nice take away, as you may be able to communicate, just in a limited audience to immortals who can goto "the calm down exit room"

I just don't know how much effort is required for this code change, as it changes the underlying way characters are handled in Diku.  I'm guessing a lot.
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Veselka

  • Posts: 928
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2019, 08:02:14 PM »
...
2) I am FOR Mansa's cool down room idea.  Not only is it kind, sometimes death happens so abruptly IG you're like did I just get kicked... wait.  Did I die?!  A room like this would be nice.  I do think a wish up command could be useful for it though.

..

I put that wish was disabled because .... I fear that people would use the wish command to try and ask for a resurrection.

Since wishes go up into the void and we don't get a read receipt, I think distraught people would spam and complain and yell during a very high emotional period when their characters get killed.

I thought leaving the ooc command enabled would be a nice take away, as you may be able to communicate, just in a limited audience to immortals who can goto "the calm down exit room"

I just don't know how much effort is required for this code change, as it changes the underlying way characters are handled in Diku.  I'm guessing a lot.

It would also beg the question of -- can you see other people in the room with you?

I guess I've been alright with the mantis head for so long, I don't see the catharsis or reason for an OOC room to be chilling in after you're dead, unless it was purely OOC, you couldn't see other 'dead' people around you, and you could just add bios. But you can do that on the website remotely already.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Cabooze

  • Posts: 265
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2019, 08:57:54 PM »
...
2) I am FOR Mansa's cool down room idea.  Not only is it kind, sometimes death happens so abruptly IG you're like did I just get kicked... wait.  Did I die?!  A room like this would be nice.  I do think a wish up command could be useful for it though.

..

I put that wish was disabled because .... I fear that people would use the wish command to try and ask for a resurrection.

Since wishes go up into the void and we don't get a read receipt, I think distraught people would spam and complain and yell during a very high emotional period when their characters get killed.

I thought leaving the ooc command enabled would be a nice take away, as you may be able to communicate, just in a limited audience to immortals who can goto "the calm down exit room"

I just don't know how much effort is required for this code change, as it changes the underlying way characters are handled in Diku.  I'm guessing a lot.

It probably wouldn't require a whole ton of work staff-side to get this done, being that aspects of this already exist ingame with the ethereal realm. All it might require is for staff to anchor someone sent into the ethereal after dying (instead of having a section of the gameworld made to facilitate this), to their body, and have the mantis-head determined by either you quitting out, or your head getting chopped off. Could open the avenue of ingame resurrections via nasty magick and fun plots.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 09:02:50 PM by Cabooze »

Namino

  • Posts: 356
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2019, 09:02:01 PM »
...
2) I am FOR Mansa's cool down room idea.  Not only is it kind, sometimes death happens so abruptly IG you're like did I just get kicked... wait.  Did I die?!  A room like this would be nice.  I do think a wish up command could be useful for it though.

..

I put that wish was disabled because .... I fear that people would use the wish command to try and ask for a resurrection.

Since wishes go up into the void and we don't get a read receipt, I think distraught people would spam and complain and yell during a very high emotional period when their characters get killed.

I thought leaving the ooc command enabled would be a nice take away, as you may be able to communicate, just in a limited audience to immortals who can goto "the calm down exit room"

I just don't know how much effort is required for this code change, as it changes the underlying way characters are handled in Diku.  I'm guessing a lot.

It probably wouldn't require a whole ton of work staff-side to get this done, being that aspects of this already exist ingame with the ethereal realm. All it might require is for staff to anchor someone sent into the ethereal after dying, to their body, and have the mantis-head determined by either you quitting out, or your head getting chopped off. Could open the avenue of ingame resurrections via nasty magick and fun plots.

I think it's fairly pointless to speculate on what would and wouldn't be a lot of work. The issue with Armageddon is that it's 30 years old and has passed through the hands of dozens of coders by now, probably. Presumably, early systems were used as foundations for later systems, which call aspects of other systems. Changing something like where a character goes when they die might obliterate 50 tangentially related systems that rely on a variable of that system and can't process the new state of affairs.

Or it could be very easy as you say. But I wouldn't consider designating something not "a whole ton of work" without being able to see what things actually are.

mansa

  • Posts: 9649
Re: Disembodied souls. Idea
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2019, 10:49:33 PM »
...I guess I've been alright with the mantis head for so long, I don't see the catharsis or reason for an OOC room to be chilling in after you're dead, unless it was purely OOC, you couldn't see other 'dead' people around you, and you could just add bios. But you can do that on the website remotely already.

Currently, this happens when your character dies:
#1 - You get removed from the game world
#2 - You get placed in the Main Menu of ArmageddonMUD (with the Mantis head or without, depending if you have brief menus enabled)
#3 - You get an exit email stating "Sorry your character died.  You can view your bios here.  I hope to see you again soon!"

This thread was originally made to answer some unanswered questions:
a) how did I die?
b) why did I die?
c) what happened next in the story?
d) closure.

The players never really get to have these questions answered.  This game is a living creature, and every player invests energy and time into keeping it alive.   But not knowing everything, or why things happen, tend to help against the downside of an intensive roleplaying game - griefing, metagaming.


I think there are ways to improve how the game exits the player.   We could polish up the exit email that is sent.  We could change how the game disconnects you.  We could modify how many hitpoints your character has to increase situations of "mostly dead, but not quite all the way dead'.  We could force it so characters can only be killed by typing a special command (>murder character)

I feel they all stem from the problems listed above - closure to the stories we write.  The game is designed this way, and we all play knowing that we won't get closure, but we still long for it.  Maybe we just need more reminders, and to use the tools that we have to preserve what stories we currently have going on, and to appreciate the cool adventures.

ps write more bios.
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