Author Topic: Learning to Read/write  (Read 1207 times)

kahuna

  • Posts: 165
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2019, 03:15:10 AM »
It would be nice if reading/writing weren't so heavily guarded in the documentation of the game, it seems almost arbitrarily so. Would some form of school system where highly-ranked or extremely wealthy commoners could go to learn to read/write be as out of the ordinary as being able to own an apartment, a warehouse, start your own organization, or be wearing over 20-30k coins in armor/weapons as a commoner?

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2824
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2019, 04:09:47 AM »
Owning weapons/being able to kill someone isn't as threatening as literacy in a world where the poor are /really/ poor compared to their superiors.

The fear isn't them being smart. The fear is them knowing history, knowing that the world was ran by sorcerers, knowing not all sorcerers are evil, knowing sorcery.

Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2019, 10:18:14 AM »
The fear isn't them being smart. The fear is them knowing history, knowing that the world was ran by sorcerers, knowing not all sorcerers are evil, knowing sorcery.

This. An educated populace can remember a time where <City State> did something egregiously wrong, or harmed the citizens for their own benefit. Being able to sneak messages, write history, even be able to read words that lead to sorcery and other power is absolutely forbidden.

GMH's have their own language, in the form of Cavilish, that in itself is really only a good system for notating numbers and performing arithmetic. Actual written word is dangerous as all hell.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Namino

  • Posts: 471
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2019, 10:32:07 AM »
In Dark Sun the above goes an extra step. A certain amount of GP of books must be read as a material component of the spell that moves your defiler level along. The sorcerer kings of Athas therefore kept their populations illiterate because then nobody else can level up as a defiler.

You literally cannot be an illiterate sorcerer in RAW Dark Sun. Even if this isn't how things operate in Arm, a lot of inspiration comes from Athas so the culture of forced illiteracy is strong.

kahuna

  • Posts: 165
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2019, 10:54:58 AM »
Quote
The fear is them knowing history, knowing that the world was ran by sorcerers, knowing not all sorcerers are evil, knowing sorcery.

I would argue that the populace already knows their history from stories and legends. The king of the city is called a "sorcerer-king".

Quote
An educated populace can remember a time where <City State> did something egregiously wrong, or harmed the citizens for their own benefit.

I think they are reminded of this on a daily basis. Are people that are oppressed and starving to death not aware of the egregious wrongs
being forced upon them by the city? Illiterate does not equal stupid.

Quote
Being able to sneak messages, write history, even be able to read words that lead to sorcery and other power is absolutely forbidden.

People can easily sneak messages already with the Way. In what way does reading lead to sorcery and other power? Illiteracy has been
heavily enforced yet sorcerers thrived for many years ICly and there were many of them. By this logic every noble is a sorcerer?


Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2019, 11:00:47 AM »
Quote
Quote
The fear is them knowing history, knowing that the world was ran by sorcerers, knowing not all sorcerers are evil, knowing sorcery.

I would argue that the populace already knows their history from stories and legends. The king of the city is called a "sorcerer-king".

They get it from STORIES. And LEGENDS. Oral history tradition that is... you guessed it. Regulated by the City-State and the nobility living therein. Anyone who spouts information that doesn't fit the narrative, is executed for treason. Eventually, the State's way is the only way. That's oppression.
Quote
Quote
An educated populace can remember a time where <City State> did something egregiously wrong, or harmed the citizens for their own benefit.

I think they are reminded of this on a daily basis. Are people that are oppressed and starving to death not aware of the egregious wrongs
being forced upon them by the city? Illiterate does not equal stupid..

See above. People know the State is wrong, but to what extend does a commoner know what the State has done to them, if not for historical fact written down? Does a commoner know who won the Copper Wars? Both States would say they did. There is an absolute truth, but why should a commoner know that? They aren't stupid, they're misinformed on purpose.
Quote
Quote
Being able to sneak messages, write history, even be able to read words that lead to sorcery and other power is absolutely forbidden.

People can easily sneak messages already with the Way. In what way does reading lead to sorcery and other power? Illiteracy has been
heavily enforced yet sorcerers thrived for many years ICly and there were many of them. By this logic every noble is a sorcerer?
[/quote]

If you think The Unseen Way is 100% secure, I have a bridge to sell you.

Reading leads to sorcery because sorcery, unlike elementalism, is a LEARNED SKILL. Elementalists are given power by birth from the elements, but sorcerors have to learn the words of power for themselves. Find a way to tap into the lifesource of the Known to bend it to their will. They do this, largely, by being taught by a mentor, or from reading a book that tells them what 'help magick' says.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

kahuna

  • Posts: 165
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2019, 12:32:14 PM »
Quote
They get it from STORIES. And LEGENDS. Oral history tradition that is... you guessed it. Regulated by the City-State and the nobility living therein.
Anyone who spouts information that doesn't fit the narrative, is executed for treason. Eventually, the State's way is the only way. That's oppression.

Realistically reading/writing would have taken foot in the lawless part of the city where murders and thievery happen on a daily basis. It wouldn't be
out of the question for there to be an NPC there with a fitting background that is willing to teach for a price.

Quote
See above. People know the State is wrong...

Prehistory exists whether you write it down or not. The concept of there being zero percent chance of reading/writing at all within the city except for the nobility
is patently absurd.

Quote
If you think The Unseen Way is 100% secure, I have a bridge to sell you.

I never claimed it was 100% but the likelyhood of a psionicist spying is relatively low, plenty of people use the way to swap secretive messages, negating the
idea that writing would suddenly create some sort of imbalance in the game. I would argue that writing would open up the game to a whole new world of
book writing/reading and messenger-like roleplay.

Quote
Reading leads to sorcery because sorcery, unlike elementalism, is a LEARNED SKILL.

Isn't everything a learned skill? Disarming someone is a learned skill, using a sword is a learned skill, no one is born with a skill, it is developed
over time. Does reading lead to someone knowing how to disarm or use a sword as well? I fail to see how reading = sorcery. That is laughably illogical.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1105
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2019, 12:43:56 PM »
There's a reason that major parts of our history, particularly in Europe, are vague at best. Literacy was not common, was kept in the Clergy, and not everything written down was remotely factual.

As pointed out above, literacy being illegal is a willful choice of the Templarate and their Sorcerer Kings as a means of controlling the populace, keeping their memory as short as their lifespans, and preventing revolution.

In Dark Sun, the Veiled Alliance is a collection of Preservers and anti-establishment revolutionaries, and literacy is common among them. I believe ArmageddonMUD has had similar groups (The Allanaki Liberation Army as an example). So while not probable, it likely isn't impossible to foment an underground movement where literacy is involved in some aspect. But I don't expect it to be handed out freely to Commoners, it's antithetical to the game setting.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2019, 01:33:09 PM »
At one point in Tuluk, a pair of PCs were tasked by a PC Noble who was in charge of the Warrens Qynar to run a census. Try to figure out how many people the Noble was responsible for.

As a result, these illiterate PCs went around with basically a notebook, and scribbling hashmarks in it to count off people.
Even this rudimentary form of counting set people on edge, and they were asked to stop being so public about it, because it was dangerously close to being seen as illegal literacy.

It IS closely monitored.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

oggotale

  • Posts: 113
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2019, 02:07:17 PM »
At one point in Tuluk, a pair of PCs were tasked by a PC Noble who was in charge of the Warrens Qynar to run a census. Try to figure out how many people the Noble was responsible for.

As a result, these illiterate PCs went around with basically a notebook, and scribbling hashmarks in it to count off people.
Even this rudimentary form of counting set people on edge, and they were asked to stop being so public about it, because it was dangerously close to being seen as illegal literacy.

It IS closely monitored.

Asked OOC or IC?
One makes a lot of sense and the other the complete opposite

Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2019, 04:03:50 PM »
ICly, they were told to stop being so obvious about it, that it looked like they were capable of something they absolutely weren't.

What they were doing wasn't illegal, in the slightest, but it was close to Treason and sometimes that's all it takes. The point being, the Templarate takes notice.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

John

  • Posts: 4240
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2019, 09:35:32 AM »
All of the above makes sense for a society. And if this was a book it would make a cool setting. But as an online RPI it falls down.

We already forget the IG history. Not spreading secrets OOCly means a lot gets lost. Players move on. ICly noone talks about it because everyone who was alive has died. OOCly nothing gets documented player side so it almost never spreads beyond a handful.

If reading was given to a subclass then here is what would happen ICly:
* Lots of people would hang out in Red Storm and share books around.
* Kadius would be able to "secretly" sell books out of Luirs which means more travel between locations.
* Templars would be sending burglars and assassins against people who can read and write.
* Nobles would be secretly looking to buy illicit books with third parties potentially handling the sales.

IC justifixation: Sath had a slew of slaves escape and it's a big stain against them and there are calls for massive sanctions against Kasix who trained the slaves. The Templars dont move against Red Storm directly due to flour and OTHER REASONS INVOLVING THE SAND LORD THAT PCs ARE NEVER ALLOWED TO KNOW.

What gets removed from the game? Nothing. Literacy is still illegal. Being literate is a death sentence. A tribe of elves or humans becoming literate would be an invitation to get wiped out

What does it add? Shitloads.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 09:37:54 AM by John »

kahuna

  • Posts: 165
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2019, 09:54:18 AM »
IC justification doesn't need to be so specific, you can justify more than just one reason. Is it out of the realm of possibility that out of x amount of nobles none would teach reading and writing to someone else? Then they teach it to someone else? Or what if a noble is actually born with empathy and compassion and decides that the hierarchy is wrong and they leave the city, settle in some far away village and teach everyone how to read and write? It's also not completely unheard of for people to teach themselves how or to come up with their own writing/reading systems. There are a ton of symbols on Arm that are used in daily life by PCs, such as tattoos of animals, carvings on items or walls, we even have scribble which allows you to do all sorts of questionable things an illiterate person would never be capable of. You're telling me that you can see symbols and recognize them, isn't that already basically a form of reading and writing something down?

You can think up hundreds of reasons why but the staff have to be willing for the game to change more in a direction that common sense dictates. For the most part the game has remained static for several years on several things that makes no sense, the complete shutdown of reading and writing is just one.


th3kaiser

  • Posts: 441
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2019, 10:32:38 AM »
Reading and writing is empowering. That's not exactly encouraged in Armageddon. It's just another measure of control over the filthy huddled masses. Frankly I don't think this should really even be a discussion here. You want to make this change, contact staff and start your plots. Give it a shot in the game world.

kahuna

  • Posts: 165
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2019, 11:06:49 AM »
Reading and writing is empowering. That's not exactly encouraged in Armageddon. It's just another measure of control over the filthy huddled masses. Frankly I don't think this should really even be a discussion here. You want to make this change, contact staff and start your plots. Give it a shot in the game world.

No one is arguing that it should be encouraged IC. I think the argument is that realistically it would exist on a much larger scale and be more available to commoners then is currently allowed by the staff who run the game. John had a great idea to implement a subguild, if you're allowing extremely rare magick to exist as subguilds/guilds why not the capability to read/write. Let us write it into our backgrounds and use CGP to gain the ability.

Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2019, 11:13:54 AM »
Reading and writing is empowering. That's not exactly encouraged in Armageddon. It's just another measure of control over the filthy huddled masses. Frankly I don't think this should really even be a discussion here. You want to make this change, contact staff and start your plots. Give it a shot in the game world.

No one is arguing that it should be encouraged IC. I think the argument is that realistically it would exist on a much larger scale and be more available to commoners then is currently allowed by the staff who run the game. John had a great idea to implement a subguild, if you're allowing extremely rare magick to exist as subguilds/guilds why not the capability to read/write. Let us write it into our backgrounds and use CGP to gain the ability.

Why would it "Realisticaly" be on a much larger scale?

People can't read.
Do you think its easy to make up a written language, that everyone can understand?
Even if a bunch of 'rinthers made up their own language that they all agree on, it wouldn't do them any good since everything is in Tatlum or Sirihish.

And if its so easy, apply for it. staff can give you R/W if it makes sense. If its easy, tell staff how your PC learned to read and write in this world of heavy oppression and psionic monitoring.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 181
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2019, 02:02:38 PM »
History in RL does indeed tell us that slaves and other oppressed folks learned to read and write despite laws that forbid it. Such comparisons though, are not good arguments to introduce such a thing in Zalanthas, imho.

Straight from the docs on Allanaki Society, just as one example:
The life of an Allanaki citizen is one of strife--expensive and degenerate living conditions, a nearly omnipotent ruler and His Templars watching your every move, and no place to hide except the burning wastelands outside the city gates. Highlord Tektolnes inspires a silent paranoia in all of his subjects, and thus has remained unchallenged during his multi-millenial reign.

There are no historical examples in RL of such a thing, because even the most despicable ruler ever did not have magickal powers allowing them to spy on anyone/anytime.

Also this:
 Many commoners may have little idea what a noble's life really entails, but they know that nobles are simply a better breed than they.

In RL, we as humans innately understand that all people are created equal, despite bloodlines or social status. On Zalanthas, commoners have been convinced that nobles ARE better, and should be treated as such.

Is it possible that once in a great while, some commoner might get the idea they want to learn these illegal things for some reason? Sure. I also think that reading and writing can be taught IG, but it must be monitored closely for RP, as such a thing as commoners learning to read and write is enough to start revolutions and change the world forever. Hence, the reason one must request it be added to a skill list or maybe special apped; things that help represent the rarity of it.

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Michael Scott, The Warlock

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2019, 03:45:43 PM »
Waste a special app on being a commoner who can read and write through whatever means.

Escaped slave scribe.

Past noble employee who retired from house service?

Then you got read write.
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.