Author Topic: Learning to Read/write  (Read 1208 times)

Dresan

  • Posts: 1305
Learning to Read/write
« on: May 05, 2019, 10:24:38 AM »
We currently have the draw command which shows a level of trust for a maturing player-base. I was thinking we could produce a document a few 'runes' that would be common to see around 'civilized' society.

These common runes would have simple meaning such as stop, templar, murder...these would be runes some people might see and be familiar with. However this is still far from knowing how to read and write, but I could see these runes incorporated into drawings. However, with the above as a basis what people would not get is that the runes are based on the written language.

My idea is that if someone is able to acquire a book or letter, using the common rune knowledge as a foundation people will be able to teach themselves how to read and perhaps write if they acquire a book or letter. The learning process would be the same as learning a language, lengthy and also should have a condition that you need enough wisdom to pull it off learning it at all.

I think having people who have been able to teach themselves to read and write in secret would be good for the game. It would be very illegal to have such knowledge. Ultimately the conditions for learning are high enough this would not be accomplished by very many PCs. However even if a few PC manage to meet the criteria I think it'll add a lot to the game.

Just like with the drawing command (which is subjectively more abusable) anyone caught abusing it can have the skill removed.
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oggotale

  • Posts: 113
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2019, 11:00:44 AM »
Out of curiosity what are the use cases of this?

If the rune system you're suggesting is as rudimentary as you're suggesting whats stopping the chalk and drawing system IG already from going forward with it, like a drawing of a palm straight up or a stick figure raising a palm to another, for stop.
A dagger with blood on it for murder.
Etc?

If it's just a gateway to literacy why not slip the whole rune thing and have a straight up manual or something, the kind with pictures or whatever.  Idk about the learning in secret bit, I mean sure it sounds good but theres the obvious temptation for folks to just game it, unless maybe such sort of "literacy manuals" could be super rare and have some kind of gickery that makes them rot super quickly after extraction or something. So you dont have everyone suddenly developing an interest in bed-time hourly rune reading (and I dont mean to imply Id be immune to this lol)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 11:07:07 AM by oggotale »

Dresan

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Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2019, 11:32:37 AM »
The learning in secret is because if you get reported as knowing how to read and write, templars will visit you and see if they find evidence of such. This is not something you would want to advertise unless you have proper backing like working for a noble house.

I think within groups or families there would be symbols and simple ways of communicating through drawings. The very basic foundation of literacy, however this sort of simple communication would not spread beyond the small groups since there is no formal education system. The few runes that may exist would just remain that in people heads, just simple symbols that most people might recognize to mean something, not something they could immediately recognize as something that might teach them to make sense of books or advance to a proper form of written communication.

The reason I suggested this approach is because without any former education or someone teaching you it would be almost impossible to learn to read. Literacy manual works when you have formal education, there is none. However, if runes exist and someone manages to get their hands on a book, then perhaps learning to read on their own (assuming you didn't use wisdom as a stat dump) might be possible.

Not something most character will achieve, its not like the world is flooded with drawings just because we have the draw command.  However for those that manage to do accomplish it, this would might open up interesting RP potential or just allow them to learn some new secrets, or perhaps allow some new interesting books to be created at some point. In short, allowing people the potential to learn to read and write outside specific roles would be good for the game.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 11:36:17 AM by Dresan »
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oggotale

  • Posts: 113
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2019, 12:10:49 PM »
I feel that you want some kind of secretive coded access to a language that albeit restricted would be able to be accessed by dedicated folks even if they arent from the same family/clan?

If it's not that widescale but an in-house written language thats just barely functional, in the restricted manner you seem to suggest, that can already be achieved right? You just have to teach people to ICly decipher certain drawings of lines or whatever?  The inconvenience of the player OOCly reading it could enforce the rudimentary nature of the language.

There are like 24 consonants in English, you can just throw out a bunch and have a drawing that goes like "You see here a series of arrows and lines. The arrows in sequence are pointing down, top left, right, circling, left, circling, down, top left, top left."

Admittedly thats a burdensome way to say "cld b cll" moreso than runes perhaps lol.

I dont believe this counts as the "words" being banned from drawings in the illustration docks.

Gonna go app a dwarf that aims to teach the commoners how to read with arrow drawings ttyl.

Say (ducking down and thumbing at the drawing) That's a KHUH like in /cock/, that's a LUH, like in /lock/.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 12:20:42 PM by oggotale »

oggotale

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Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2019, 12:21:14 PM »
Del
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 12:25:26 PM by oggotale »

Dresan

  • Posts: 1305
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2019, 12:32:11 PM »
If you feel that way, then I haven't explained myself properly.

I want characters to be able to gain the read/write skill on their own.

I am not sure I like your approach and pretty sure that would fall a bit on abuse of the drawing skill. Additionally while you can use drawings to come up with symbols and simple meaning within a group it isn't the coded read/write skill which allows you to understand the written books and letters currently existing in the game.

Right now even if you get a book, I can't see anyone making sense of it on their own without any teaching assistance or basis to learn reading from. I think we should open up the chance for characters to learn the secrets within those books/letter outside specific roles.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 12:34:00 PM by Dresan »
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gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2019, 02:04:26 PM »
I have definitely been shot down by staff for trying to organize an ingame calender because it was starting to become too similar to a language or reading/writing. I don't expect commoners learning read/write will happen any time soon and I have absolutely no strong feelings towards getting to that point either.

Read/write is another one of the magickal powers sacred to the silks, Templars, and the sorcerer kings. It's about as holy as Tatlum and dangerous to be caught with as a magickal artifact. I am fine with it being and remaining gated. It inspires creativity in its absence.
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AdamBlue

  • Posts: 840
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2019, 10:16:36 AM »
Develop your own language in-game using symbols. Who is stopping you? Just document the process.

Cerelum

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Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2019, 10:18:07 AM »
Develop your own language in-game using symbols. Who is stopping you? Just document the process.

The Templars, the Militia, The Nobles, pretty much everyone.
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AdamBlue

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Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2019, 10:20:55 AM »
Develop your own language in-game using symbols. Who is stopping you? Just document the process.

The Templars, the Militia, The Nobles, pretty much everyone.
If you're in 'Nak, maybe.

Dresan

  • Posts: 1305
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2019, 10:31:28 AM »
Develop your own language in-game using symbols. Who is stopping you? Just document the process.

How would this allow access to the letters and books, basically the interesting information that is already written in game?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 10:33:30 AM by Dresan »
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ShaLeah

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Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2019, 10:58:19 AM »

I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2019, 01:17:55 PM »
Most NPC/PCs wouldn't even care to learn how to read and write. They get by just fine with knowing the "Gaj" is the place with the Gaj on its sign.

Most common stuff like "the image of a black-cloaked militia soldier has been defaced with a two long red streaks through it" would be fine, in simple pictures/drawings/paintings/etc.

It sounds more like you're trying to find a way to train R/W in a language that exists in game based on:

How would this allow access to the letters and books, basically the interesting information that is already written in game?

And to that I'd say... no. It wouldn't allow you to do that. You can try to come up with your own language, out on the fringes of the known, that only you know. Write a book about your trials in your made up language. But you're not going to read the letters and books written in Sirihish, a language you have never seen written before, and have no way to decode without training/tutoring.

I don't even understand the suggestion. Part of the lore of this world for 20 RL years is that "commoners can't read or write" and you're asking to have every PC capable of reading and writing.

No.
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Cerelum

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Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2019, 01:31:16 PM »
I think the initial idea of this is to make it POSSIBLE codedly to learn to read and write.

Perhaps like languages, after you're experienced enough at seeing it, it starts to make sense.

I dunno the answer to the problem, but it does seem silly that staff intervention is needed to even get the basics of the skill.
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Dresan

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Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2019, 02:58:53 PM »
@riev This does seem like a case of 'too long didn't read'

I don't disagree with what you are saying but like cerelum mentioned the whole point of the suggestion was to allow it to make IC sense for someone who aquires a book to teach themselves how to read.
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Riev

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Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2019, 03:35:30 PM »
@riev This does seem like a case of 'too long didn't read'

I don't disagree with what you are saying but like cerelum mentioned the whole point of the suggestion was to allow it to make IC sense for someone who aquires a book to teach themselves how to read.

Borrowing from RL a moment... are you positing that someone can learn how to read, just by looking at a book written in their spoken language?

I could not pick up a book written in Japanese, and by just looking at it a real lot and wishing, understand the conversion from the runic symbol to the spoken word. Not without a tutor who can show it to me.

Sure, it'd be nice for it to "pop" in game, but it means someone is teaching you how to read and write. Which means staff should already know the situation. I just cannot fathom a world in which, without teaching, someone just 'learns' to decipher a language. Rosetta stones, archaeological researchers taking 20 years to decipher a language based on bits and pieces of things, and experts knowing ONE SYMBOL...

I just... cannot.
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1305
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2019, 03:50:14 PM »
@riev This does seem like a case of 'too long didn't read'

I don't disagree with what you are saying but like cerelum mentioned the whole point of the suggestion was to allow it to make IC sense for someone who aquires a book to teach themselves how to read.

Borrowing from RL a moment... are you positing that someone can learn how to read, just by looking at a book written in their spoken language?

I could not pick up a book written in Japanese, and by just looking at it a real lot and wishing, understand the conversion from the runic symbol to the spoken word. Not without a tutor who can show it to me.

Sure, it'd be nice for it to "pop" in game, but it means someone is teaching you how to read and write. Which means staff should already know the situation. I just cannot fathom a world in which, without teaching, someone just 'learns' to decipher a language. Rosetta stones, archaeological researchers taking 20 years to decipher a language based on bits and pieces of things, and experts knowing ONE SYMBOL...

I just... cannot.

It depends. If its like kanji maybe not, i say maybe because while its a beautiful written language not sure if there is a pattern to the symbols and vocal sounds, but if it is more like english with only 24 letters and specific sounds then perhaps it is possible.

As an example I was never educated in spanish, nor taught how to read or write, and it was only spoken in a broken way at home growing up. However I can read (slowly) in spanish regardless because you pronounce most words the way they are spoken.

Assuming there is some foundation with enough intelligence (wisdom) it can be possible. Which again was the whole point of the idea, to make it icly plausable.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 03:52:36 PM by Dresan »
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th3kaiser

  • Posts: 441
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2019, 04:01:07 PM »
You also already understand what an alphabet is and how to read letters. Someone also probably taught you critical thinking skills at some point and have the benefit of living in a world full of easily accessible knowledge.

Jihelu

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Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2019, 04:03:09 PM »
I don't get this suggestion.

Why not just convince/try to get someone who can already read and write to teach you? Why do some weird solo rp
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Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2019, 04:04:15 PM »
Both Spanish and English use the same Latin alphabet. If you can read in English, you can sound out things in Spanish. You probably cannot do that with any of the Russian/Cyrillic languages.

If the suggestion was "I can read Sirihish, and speak Cavilish, so I should be able to learn to read/write Cavilish easier" I would be on board with something like that. However, this is "Having no prior knowledge of reading or writing, I should be able to stare at arcane runes and suddenly divine what they mean".

Adding to that, we have no knowledge of whether all written language uses the same 'alphabet', or if dwarves use an entirely different symbols that don't share anything in common with Sirihish. (supposedly Mirukkim and Tatum have similarities).

I get the spirit behind the suggestion, but this is definitely in the realm of "Just let staff know and decide" rather than "codedly do it while nobody is online."
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2019, 04:53:38 PM »
I don't get this suggestion.

Why not just convince/try to get someone who can already read and write to teach you? Why do some weird solo rp
"Em looks at paper, chuckling and nodding"
Well the main challenge with that is that if you walk up to a noble and go, "Hey teach me how to read?" chances are a templar is gonna visit you with a half-giant to throw you in a hole.
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oggotale

  • Posts: 113
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2019, 05:16:19 PM »
I don't get this suggestion.

Why not just convince/try to get someone who can already read and write to teach you? Why do some weird solo rp
"Em looks at paper, chuckling and nodding"
Well the main challenge with that is that if you walk up to a noble and go, "Hey teach me how to read?" chances are a templar is gonna visit you with a half-giant to throw you in a hole.

It's possible to use the teach command to learn how to read?
Must mean that it's happened before that some connected PC/aide who isn't high-born payed out or really compelled a noble to teach them yes? I mean without coersion so a trip by a Templar is not inevitable.

Or do most nobles play it "by the book".

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2824
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2019, 08:41:18 PM »
"Well the main challenge with that is that if you walk up to a noble and go, "Hey teach me how to read?" chances are a templar is gonna visit you with a half-giant to throw you in a hole."

That's the point. Reading/Writing = illegal. Get a Templar indebted in your service, or a noble, and have that be one of the requirements of getting out of it.

This is like asking if we can learn sorcery without staff/another sorcerer.

"It's possible to use the teach command to learn how to read?
Must mean that it's happened before that some connected PC/aide who isn't high-born payed out or really compelled a noble to teach them yes? I mean without coersion so a trip by a Templar is not inevitable.
"

You have to have the skill before anyone can 'teach' you how to read. Which will mean, finding someone who can read/write to begin with and then bugging staff to help you out.

Namino

  • Posts: 471
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2019, 10:39:30 PM »
Tarzan did it and if I recall correctly that's a documentary.

Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2019, 09:35:18 AM »
Teaching someone, who isn't indoctrinated/enslaved to the current powers-that-be is fully illegal. A Junior Noble teaching some Aide how to read and write would be highly illegal and suspect to further inquiry, because that Aide has no reason not to betray state secrets, or learn about things the ruling class has done/written down that the public can't know about.

Its. Illegal.

You can be taught how to do it, at great risk.

This great risk is overseen by the fact that staff must be aware this is happening and ultimately may cock-block your efforts with a conveniently placed vNPC.

You cannot steal a book and stare at it for a RL month and pop R/W. That's patently ridiculous.
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kahuna

  • Posts: 165
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2019, 03:15:10 AM »
It would be nice if reading/writing weren't so heavily guarded in the documentation of the game, it seems almost arbitrarily so. Would some form of school system where highly-ranked or extremely wealthy commoners could go to learn to read/write be as out of the ordinary as being able to own an apartment, a warehouse, start your own organization, or be wearing over 20-30k coins in armor/weapons as a commoner?

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2824
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2019, 04:09:47 AM »
Owning weapons/being able to kill someone isn't as threatening as literacy in a world where the poor are /really/ poor compared to their superiors.

The fear isn't them being smart. The fear is them knowing history, knowing that the world was ran by sorcerers, knowing not all sorcerers are evil, knowing sorcery.

Riev

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Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2019, 10:18:14 AM »
The fear isn't them being smart. The fear is them knowing history, knowing that the world was ran by sorcerers, knowing not all sorcerers are evil, knowing sorcery.

This. An educated populace can remember a time where <City State> did something egregiously wrong, or harmed the citizens for their own benefit. Being able to sneak messages, write history, even be able to read words that lead to sorcery and other power is absolutely forbidden.

GMH's have their own language, in the form of Cavilish, that in itself is really only a good system for notating numbers and performing arithmetic. Actual written word is dangerous as all hell.
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Namino

  • Posts: 471
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2019, 10:32:07 AM »
In Dark Sun the above goes an extra step. A certain amount of GP of books must be read as a material component of the spell that moves your defiler level along. The sorcerer kings of Athas therefore kept their populations illiterate because then nobody else can level up as a defiler.

You literally cannot be an illiterate sorcerer in RAW Dark Sun. Even if this isn't how things operate in Arm, a lot of inspiration comes from Athas so the culture of forced illiteracy is strong.

kahuna

  • Posts: 165
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2019, 10:54:58 AM »
Quote
The fear is them knowing history, knowing that the world was ran by sorcerers, knowing not all sorcerers are evil, knowing sorcery.

I would argue that the populace already knows their history from stories and legends. The king of the city is called a "sorcerer-king".

Quote
An educated populace can remember a time where <City State> did something egregiously wrong, or harmed the citizens for their own benefit.

I think they are reminded of this on a daily basis. Are people that are oppressed and starving to death not aware of the egregious wrongs
being forced upon them by the city? Illiterate does not equal stupid.

Quote
Being able to sneak messages, write history, even be able to read words that lead to sorcery and other power is absolutely forbidden.

People can easily sneak messages already with the Way. In what way does reading lead to sorcery and other power? Illiteracy has been
heavily enforced yet sorcerers thrived for many years ICly and there were many of them. By this logic every noble is a sorcerer?


Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2019, 11:00:47 AM »
Quote
Quote
The fear is them knowing history, knowing that the world was ran by sorcerers, knowing not all sorcerers are evil, knowing sorcery.

I would argue that the populace already knows their history from stories and legends. The king of the city is called a "sorcerer-king".

They get it from STORIES. And LEGENDS. Oral history tradition that is... you guessed it. Regulated by the City-State and the nobility living therein. Anyone who spouts information that doesn't fit the narrative, is executed for treason. Eventually, the State's way is the only way. That's oppression.
Quote
Quote
An educated populace can remember a time where <City State> did something egregiously wrong, or harmed the citizens for their own benefit.

I think they are reminded of this on a daily basis. Are people that are oppressed and starving to death not aware of the egregious wrongs
being forced upon them by the city? Illiterate does not equal stupid..

See above. People know the State is wrong, but to what extend does a commoner know what the State has done to them, if not for historical fact written down? Does a commoner know who won the Copper Wars? Both States would say they did. There is an absolute truth, but why should a commoner know that? They aren't stupid, they're misinformed on purpose.
Quote
Quote
Being able to sneak messages, write history, even be able to read words that lead to sorcery and other power is absolutely forbidden.

People can easily sneak messages already with the Way. In what way does reading lead to sorcery and other power? Illiteracy has been
heavily enforced yet sorcerers thrived for many years ICly and there were many of them. By this logic every noble is a sorcerer?
[/quote]

If you think The Unseen Way is 100% secure, I have a bridge to sell you.

Reading leads to sorcery because sorcery, unlike elementalism, is a LEARNED SKILL. Elementalists are given power by birth from the elements, but sorcerors have to learn the words of power for themselves. Find a way to tap into the lifesource of the Known to bend it to their will. They do this, largely, by being taught by a mentor, or from reading a book that tells them what 'help magick' says.
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kahuna

  • Posts: 165
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2019, 12:32:14 PM »
Quote
They get it from STORIES. And LEGENDS. Oral history tradition that is... you guessed it. Regulated by the City-State and the nobility living therein.
Anyone who spouts information that doesn't fit the narrative, is executed for treason. Eventually, the State's way is the only way. That's oppression.

Realistically reading/writing would have taken foot in the lawless part of the city where murders and thievery happen on a daily basis. It wouldn't be
out of the question for there to be an NPC there with a fitting background that is willing to teach for a price.

Quote
See above. People know the State is wrong...

Prehistory exists whether you write it down or not. The concept of there being zero percent chance of reading/writing at all within the city except for the nobility
is patently absurd.

Quote
If you think The Unseen Way is 100% secure, I have a bridge to sell you.

I never claimed it was 100% but the likelyhood of a psionicist spying is relatively low, plenty of people use the way to swap secretive messages, negating the
idea that writing would suddenly create some sort of imbalance in the game. I would argue that writing would open up the game to a whole new world of
book writing/reading and messenger-like roleplay.

Quote
Reading leads to sorcery because sorcery, unlike elementalism, is a LEARNED SKILL.

Isn't everything a learned skill? Disarming someone is a learned skill, using a sword is a learned skill, no one is born with a skill, it is developed
over time. Does reading lead to someone knowing how to disarm or use a sword as well? I fail to see how reading = sorcery. That is laughably illogical.

Veselka

  • Posts: 1105
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2019, 12:43:56 PM »
There's a reason that major parts of our history, particularly in Europe, are vague at best. Literacy was not common, was kept in the Clergy, and not everything written down was remotely factual.

As pointed out above, literacy being illegal is a willful choice of the Templarate and their Sorcerer Kings as a means of controlling the populace, keeping their memory as short as their lifespans, and preventing revolution.

In Dark Sun, the Veiled Alliance is a collection of Preservers and anti-establishment revolutionaries, and literacy is common among them. I believe ArmageddonMUD has had similar groups (The Allanaki Liberation Army as an example). So while not probable, it likely isn't impossible to foment an underground movement where literacy is involved in some aspect. But I don't expect it to be handed out freely to Commoners, it's antithetical to the game setting.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2019, 01:33:09 PM »
At one point in Tuluk, a pair of PCs were tasked by a PC Noble who was in charge of the Warrens Qynar to run a census. Try to figure out how many people the Noble was responsible for.

As a result, these illiterate PCs went around with basically a notebook, and scribbling hashmarks in it to count off people.
Even this rudimentary form of counting set people on edge, and they were asked to stop being so public about it, because it was dangerously close to being seen as illegal literacy.

It IS closely monitored.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

oggotale

  • Posts: 113
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2019, 02:07:17 PM »
At one point in Tuluk, a pair of PCs were tasked by a PC Noble who was in charge of the Warrens Qynar to run a census. Try to figure out how many people the Noble was responsible for.

As a result, these illiterate PCs went around with basically a notebook, and scribbling hashmarks in it to count off people.
Even this rudimentary form of counting set people on edge, and they were asked to stop being so public about it, because it was dangerously close to being seen as illegal literacy.

It IS closely monitored.

Asked OOC or IC?
One makes a lot of sense and the other the complete opposite

Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2019, 04:03:50 PM »
ICly, they were told to stop being so obvious about it, that it looked like they were capable of something they absolutely weren't.

What they were doing wasn't illegal, in the slightest, but it was close to Treason and sometimes that's all it takes. The point being, the Templarate takes notice.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

John

  • Posts: 4240
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2019, 09:35:32 AM »
All of the above makes sense for a society. And if this was a book it would make a cool setting. But as an online RPI it falls down.

We already forget the IG history. Not spreading secrets OOCly means a lot gets lost. Players move on. ICly noone talks about it because everyone who was alive has died. OOCly nothing gets documented player side so it almost never spreads beyond a handful.

If reading was given to a subclass then here is what would happen ICly:
* Lots of people would hang out in Red Storm and share books around.
* Kadius would be able to "secretly" sell books out of Luirs which means more travel between locations.
* Templars would be sending burglars and assassins against people who can read and write.
* Nobles would be secretly looking to buy illicit books with third parties potentially handling the sales.

IC justifixation: Sath had a slew of slaves escape and it's a big stain against them and there are calls for massive sanctions against Kasix who trained the slaves. The Templars dont move against Red Storm directly due to flour and OTHER REASONS INVOLVING THE SAND LORD THAT PCs ARE NEVER ALLOWED TO KNOW.

What gets removed from the game? Nothing. Literacy is still illegal. Being literate is a death sentence. A tribe of elves or humans becoming literate would be an invitation to get wiped out

What does it add? Shitloads.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 09:37:54 AM by John »

kahuna

  • Posts: 165
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2019, 09:54:18 AM »
IC justification doesn't need to be so specific, you can justify more than just one reason. Is it out of the realm of possibility that out of x amount of nobles none would teach reading and writing to someone else? Then they teach it to someone else? Or what if a noble is actually born with empathy and compassion and decides that the hierarchy is wrong and they leave the city, settle in some far away village and teach everyone how to read and write? It's also not completely unheard of for people to teach themselves how or to come up with their own writing/reading systems. There are a ton of symbols on Arm that are used in daily life by PCs, such as tattoos of animals, carvings on items or walls, we even have scribble which allows you to do all sorts of questionable things an illiterate person would never be capable of. You're telling me that you can see symbols and recognize them, isn't that already basically a form of reading and writing something down?

You can think up hundreds of reasons why but the staff have to be willing for the game to change more in a direction that common sense dictates. For the most part the game has remained static for several years on several things that makes no sense, the complete shutdown of reading and writing is just one.


th3kaiser

  • Posts: 441
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2019, 10:32:38 AM »
Reading and writing is empowering. That's not exactly encouraged in Armageddon. It's just another measure of control over the filthy huddled masses. Frankly I don't think this should really even be a discussion here. You want to make this change, contact staff and start your plots. Give it a shot in the game world.

kahuna

  • Posts: 165
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2019, 11:06:49 AM »
Reading and writing is empowering. That's not exactly encouraged in Armageddon. It's just another measure of control over the filthy huddled masses. Frankly I don't think this should really even be a discussion here. You want to make this change, contact staff and start your plots. Give it a shot in the game world.

No one is arguing that it should be encouraged IC. I think the argument is that realistically it would exist on a much larger scale and be more available to commoners then is currently allowed by the staff who run the game. John had a great idea to implement a subguild, if you're allowing extremely rare magick to exist as subguilds/guilds why not the capability to read/write. Let us write it into our backgrounds and use CGP to gain the ability.

Riev

  • Posts: 5560
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2019, 11:13:54 AM »
Reading and writing is empowering. That's not exactly encouraged in Armageddon. It's just another measure of control over the filthy huddled masses. Frankly I don't think this should really even be a discussion here. You want to make this change, contact staff and start your plots. Give it a shot in the game world.

No one is arguing that it should be encouraged IC. I think the argument is that realistically it would exist on a much larger scale and be more available to commoners then is currently allowed by the staff who run the game. John had a great idea to implement a subguild, if you're allowing extremely rare magick to exist as subguilds/guilds why not the capability to read/write. Let us write it into our backgrounds and use CGP to gain the ability.

Why would it "Realisticaly" be on a much larger scale?

People can't read.
Do you think its easy to make up a written language, that everyone can understand?
Even if a bunch of 'rinthers made up their own language that they all agree on, it wouldn't do them any good since everything is in Tatlum or Sirihish.

And if its so easy, apply for it. staff can give you R/W if it makes sense. If its easy, tell staff how your PC learned to read and write in this world of heavy oppression and psionic monitoring.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 181
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2019, 02:02:38 PM »
History in RL does indeed tell us that slaves and other oppressed folks learned to read and write despite laws that forbid it. Such comparisons though, are not good arguments to introduce such a thing in Zalanthas, imho.

Straight from the docs on Allanaki Society, just as one example:
The life of an Allanaki citizen is one of strife--expensive and degenerate living conditions, a nearly omnipotent ruler and His Templars watching your every move, and no place to hide except the burning wastelands outside the city gates. Highlord Tektolnes inspires a silent paranoia in all of his subjects, and thus has remained unchallenged during his multi-millenial reign.

There are no historical examples in RL of such a thing, because even the most despicable ruler ever did not have magickal powers allowing them to spy on anyone/anytime.

Also this:
 Many commoners may have little idea what a noble's life really entails, but they know that nobles are simply a better breed than they.

In RL, we as humans innately understand that all people are created equal, despite bloodlines or social status. On Zalanthas, commoners have been convinced that nobles ARE better, and should be treated as such.

Is it possible that once in a great while, some commoner might get the idea they want to learn these illegal things for some reason? Sure. I also think that reading and writing can be taught IG, but it must be monitored closely for RP, as such a thing as commoners learning to read and write is enough to start revolutions and change the world forever. Hence, the reason one must request it be added to a skill list or maybe special apped; things that help represent the rarity of it.

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Michael Scott, The Warlock

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2019, 03:45:43 PM »
Waste a special app on being a commoner who can read and write through whatever means.

Escaped slave scribe.

Past noble employee who retired from house service?

Then you got read write.
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