Author Topic: Learning to Read/write  (Read 1289 times)

Dresan

  • Posts: 1306
Learning to Read/write
« on: May 05, 2019, 10:24:38 AM »
We currently have the draw command which shows a level of trust for a maturing player-base. I was thinking we could produce a document a few 'runes' that would be common to see around 'civilized' society.

These common runes would have simple meaning such as stop, templar, murder...these would be runes some people might see and be familiar with. However this is still far from knowing how to read and write, but I could see these runes incorporated into drawings. However, with the above as a basis what people would not get is that the runes are based on the written language.

My idea is that if someone is able to acquire a book or letter, using the common rune knowledge as a foundation people will be able to teach themselves how to read and perhaps write if they acquire a book or letter. The learning process would be the same as learning a language, lengthy and also should have a condition that you need enough wisdom to pull it off learning it at all.

I think having people who have been able to teach themselves to read and write in secret would be good for the game. It would be very illegal to have such knowledge. Ultimately the conditions for learning are high enough this would not be accomplished by very many PCs. However even if a few PC manage to meet the criteria I think it'll add a lot to the game.

Just like with the drawing command (which is subjectively more abusable) anyone caught abusing it can have the skill removed.
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oggotale

  • Posts: 115
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2019, 11:00:44 AM »
Out of curiosity what are the use cases of this?

If the rune system you're suggesting is as rudimentary as you're suggesting whats stopping the chalk and drawing system IG already from going forward with it, like a drawing of a palm straight up or a stick figure raising a palm to another, for stop.
A dagger with blood on it for murder.
Etc?

If it's just a gateway to literacy why not slip the whole rune thing and have a straight up manual or something, the kind with pictures or whatever.  Idk about the learning in secret bit, I mean sure it sounds good but theres the obvious temptation for folks to just game it, unless maybe such sort of "literacy manuals" could be super rare and have some kind of gickery that makes them rot super quickly after extraction or something. So you dont have everyone suddenly developing an interest in bed-time hourly rune reading (and I dont mean to imply Id be immune to this lol)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 11:07:07 AM by oggotale »

Dresan

  • Posts: 1306
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2019, 11:32:37 AM »
The learning in secret is because if you get reported as knowing how to read and write, templars will visit you and see if they find evidence of such. This is not something you would want to advertise unless you have proper backing like working for a noble house.

I think within groups or families there would be symbols and simple ways of communicating through drawings. The very basic foundation of literacy, however this sort of simple communication would not spread beyond the small groups since there is no formal education system. The few runes that may exist would just remain that in people heads, just simple symbols that most people might recognize to mean something, not something they could immediately recognize as something that might teach them to make sense of books or advance to a proper form of written communication.

The reason I suggested this approach is because without any former education or someone teaching you it would be almost impossible to learn to read. Literacy manual works when you have formal education, there is none. However, if runes exist and someone manages to get their hands on a book, then perhaps learning to read on their own (assuming you didn't use wisdom as a stat dump) might be possible.

Not something most character will achieve, its not like the world is flooded with drawings just because we have the draw command.  However for those that manage to do accomplish it, this would might open up interesting RP potential or just allow them to learn some new secrets, or perhaps allow some new interesting books to be created at some point. In short, allowing people the potential to learn to read and write outside specific roles would be good for the game.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 11:36:17 AM by Dresan »
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oggotale

  • Posts: 115
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2019, 12:10:49 PM »
I feel that you want some kind of secretive coded access to a language that albeit restricted would be able to be accessed by dedicated folks even if they arent from the same family/clan?

If it's not that widescale but an in-house written language thats just barely functional, in the restricted manner you seem to suggest, that can already be achieved right? You just have to teach people to ICly decipher certain drawings of lines or whatever?  The inconvenience of the player OOCly reading it could enforce the rudimentary nature of the language.

There are like 24 consonants in English, you can just throw out a bunch and have a drawing that goes like "You see here a series of arrows and lines. The arrows in sequence are pointing down, top left, right, circling, left, circling, down, top left, top left."

Admittedly thats a burdensome way to say "cld b cll" moreso than runes perhaps lol.

I dont believe this counts as the "words" being banned from drawings in the illustration docks.

Gonna go app a dwarf that aims to teach the commoners how to read with arrow drawings ttyl.

Say (ducking down and thumbing at the drawing) That's a KHUH like in /cock/, that's a LUH, like in /lock/.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 12:20:42 PM by oggotale »

oggotale

  • Posts: 115
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2019, 12:21:14 PM »
Del
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 12:25:26 PM by oggotale »

Dresan

  • Posts: 1306
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2019, 12:32:11 PM »
If you feel that way, then I haven't explained myself properly.

I want characters to be able to gain the read/write skill on their own.

I am not sure I like your approach and pretty sure that would fall a bit on abuse of the drawing skill. Additionally while you can use drawings to come up with symbols and simple meaning within a group it isn't the coded read/write skill which allows you to understand the written books and letters currently existing in the game.

Right now even if you get a book, I can't see anyone making sense of it on their own without any teaching assistance or basis to learn reading from. I think we should open up the chance for characters to learn the secrets within those books/letter outside specific roles.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 12:34:00 PM by Dresan »
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gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2019, 02:04:26 PM »
I have definitely been shot down by staff for trying to organize an ingame calender because it was starting to become too similar to a language or reading/writing. I don't expect commoners learning read/write will happen any time soon and I have absolutely no strong feelings towards getting to that point either.

Read/write is another one of the magickal powers sacred to the silks, Templars, and the sorcerer kings. It's about as holy as Tatlum and dangerous to be caught with as a magickal artifact. I am fine with it being and remaining gated. It inspires creativity in its absence.
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AdamBlue

  • Posts: 840
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2019, 10:16:36 AM »
Develop your own language in-game using symbols. Who is stopping you? Just document the process.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2019, 10:18:07 AM »
Develop your own language in-game using symbols. Who is stopping you? Just document the process.

The Templars, the Militia, The Nobles, pretty much everyone.
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AdamBlue

  • Posts: 840
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2019, 10:20:55 AM »
Develop your own language in-game using symbols. Who is stopping you? Just document the process.

The Templars, the Militia, The Nobles, pretty much everyone.
If you're in 'Nak, maybe.

Dresan

  • Posts: 1306
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2019, 10:31:28 AM »
Develop your own language in-game using symbols. Who is stopping you? Just document the process.

How would this allow access to the letters and books, basically the interesting information that is already written in game?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 10:33:30 AM by Dresan »
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ShaLeah

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Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2019, 10:58:19 AM »

I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
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Riev

  • Posts: 5567
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2019, 01:17:55 PM »
Most NPC/PCs wouldn't even care to learn how to read and write. They get by just fine with knowing the "Gaj" is the place with the Gaj on its sign.

Most common stuff like "the image of a black-cloaked militia soldier has been defaced with a two long red streaks through it" would be fine, in simple pictures/drawings/paintings/etc.

It sounds more like you're trying to find a way to train R/W in a language that exists in game based on:

How would this allow access to the letters and books, basically the interesting information that is already written in game?

And to that I'd say... no. It wouldn't allow you to do that. You can try to come up with your own language, out on the fringes of the known, that only you know. Write a book about your trials in your made up language. But you're not going to read the letters and books written in Sirihish, a language you have never seen written before, and have no way to decode without training/tutoring.

I don't even understand the suggestion. Part of the lore of this world for 20 RL years is that "commoners can't read or write" and you're asking to have every PC capable of reading and writing.

No.
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2019, 01:31:16 PM »
I think the initial idea of this is to make it POSSIBLE codedly to learn to read and write.

Perhaps like languages, after you're experienced enough at seeing it, it starts to make sense.

I dunno the answer to the problem, but it does seem silly that staff intervention is needed to even get the basics of the skill.
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1306
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2019, 02:58:53 PM »
@riev This does seem like a case of 'too long didn't read'

I don't disagree with what you are saying but like cerelum mentioned the whole point of the suggestion was to allow it to make IC sense for someone who aquires a book to teach themselves how to read.
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Riev

  • Posts: 5567
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2019, 03:35:30 PM »
@riev This does seem like a case of 'too long didn't read'

I don't disagree with what you are saying but like cerelum mentioned the whole point of the suggestion was to allow it to make IC sense for someone who aquires a book to teach themselves how to read.

Borrowing from RL a moment... are you positing that someone can learn how to read, just by looking at a book written in their spoken language?

I could not pick up a book written in Japanese, and by just looking at it a real lot and wishing, understand the conversion from the runic symbol to the spoken word. Not without a tutor who can show it to me.

Sure, it'd be nice for it to "pop" in game, but it means someone is teaching you how to read and write. Which means staff should already know the situation. I just cannot fathom a world in which, without teaching, someone just 'learns' to decipher a language. Rosetta stones, archaeological researchers taking 20 years to decipher a language based on bits and pieces of things, and experts knowing ONE SYMBOL...

I just... cannot.
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Dresan

  • Posts: 1306
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2019, 03:50:14 PM »
@riev This does seem like a case of 'too long didn't read'

I don't disagree with what you are saying but like cerelum mentioned the whole point of the suggestion was to allow it to make IC sense for someone who aquires a book to teach themselves how to read.

Borrowing from RL a moment... are you positing that someone can learn how to read, just by looking at a book written in their spoken language?

I could not pick up a book written in Japanese, and by just looking at it a real lot and wishing, understand the conversion from the runic symbol to the spoken word. Not without a tutor who can show it to me.

Sure, it'd be nice for it to "pop" in game, but it means someone is teaching you how to read and write. Which means staff should already know the situation. I just cannot fathom a world in which, without teaching, someone just 'learns' to decipher a language. Rosetta stones, archaeological researchers taking 20 years to decipher a language based on bits and pieces of things, and experts knowing ONE SYMBOL...

I just... cannot.

It depends. If its like kanji maybe not, i say maybe because while its a beautiful written language not sure if there is a pattern to the symbols and vocal sounds, but if it is more like english with only 24 letters and specific sounds then perhaps it is possible.

As an example I was never educated in spanish, nor taught how to read or write, and it was only spoken in a broken way at home growing up. However I can read (slowly) in spanish regardless because you pronounce most words the way they are spoken.

Assuming there is some foundation with enough intelligence (wisdom) it can be possible. Which again was the whole point of the idea, to make it icly plausable.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 03:52:36 PM by Dresan »
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th3kaiser

  • Posts: 441
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2019, 04:01:07 PM »
You also already understand what an alphabet is and how to read letters. Someone also probably taught you critical thinking skills at some point and have the benefit of living in a world full of easily accessible knowledge.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2825
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2019, 04:03:09 PM »
I don't get this suggestion.

Why not just convince/try to get someone who can already read and write to teach you? Why do some weird solo rp
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Riev

  • Posts: 5567
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2019, 04:04:15 PM »
Both Spanish and English use the same Latin alphabet. If you can read in English, you can sound out things in Spanish. You probably cannot do that with any of the Russian/Cyrillic languages.

If the suggestion was "I can read Sirihish, and speak Cavilish, so I should be able to learn to read/write Cavilish easier" I would be on board with something like that. However, this is "Having no prior knowledge of reading or writing, I should be able to stare at arcane runes and suddenly divine what they mean".

Adding to that, we have no knowledge of whether all written language uses the same 'alphabet', or if dwarves use an entirely different symbols that don't share anything in common with Sirihish. (supposedly Mirukkim and Tatum have similarities).

I get the spirit behind the suggestion, but this is definitely in the realm of "Just let staff know and decide" rather than "codedly do it while nobody is online."
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2019, 04:53:38 PM »
I don't get this suggestion.

Why not just convince/try to get someone who can already read and write to teach you? Why do some weird solo rp
"Em looks at paper, chuckling and nodding"
Well the main challenge with that is that if you walk up to a noble and go, "Hey teach me how to read?" chances are a templar is gonna visit you with a half-giant to throw you in a hole.
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oggotale

  • Posts: 115
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2019, 05:16:19 PM »
I don't get this suggestion.

Why not just convince/try to get someone who can already read and write to teach you? Why do some weird solo rp
"Em looks at paper, chuckling and nodding"
Well the main challenge with that is that if you walk up to a noble and go, "Hey teach me how to read?" chances are a templar is gonna visit you with a half-giant to throw you in a hole.

It's possible to use the teach command to learn how to read?
Must mean that it's happened before that some connected PC/aide who isn't high-born payed out or really compelled a noble to teach them yes? I mean without coersion so a trip by a Templar is not inevitable.

Or do most nobles play it "by the book".

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2825
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2019, 08:41:18 PM »
"Well the main challenge with that is that if you walk up to a noble and go, "Hey teach me how to read?" chances are a templar is gonna visit you with a half-giant to throw you in a hole."

That's the point. Reading/Writing = illegal. Get a Templar indebted in your service, or a noble, and have that be one of the requirements of getting out of it.

This is like asking if we can learn sorcery without staff/another sorcerer.

"It's possible to use the teach command to learn how to read?
Must mean that it's happened before that some connected PC/aide who isn't high-born payed out or really compelled a noble to teach them yes? I mean without coersion so a trip by a Templar is not inevitable.
"

You have to have the skill before anyone can 'teach' you how to read. Which will mean, finding someone who can read/write to begin with and then bugging staff to help you out.

Namino

  • Posts: 472
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2019, 10:39:30 PM »
Tarzan did it and if I recall correctly that's a documentary.

Riev

  • Posts: 5567
Re: Learning to Read/write
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2019, 09:35:18 AM »
Teaching someone, who isn't indoctrinated/enslaved to the current powers-that-be is fully illegal. A Junior Noble teaching some Aide how to read and write would be highly illegal and suspect to further inquiry, because that Aide has no reason not to betray state secrets, or learn about things the ruling class has done/written down that the public can't know about.

Its. Illegal.

You can be taught how to do it, at great risk.

This great risk is overseen by the fact that staff must be aware this is happening and ultimately may cock-block your efforts with a conveniently placed vNPC.

You cannot steal a book and stare at it for a RL month and pop R/W. That's patently ridiculous.
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