Author Topic: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.  (Read 819 times)

Cerelum

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Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« on: April 20, 2019, 10:51:15 AM »
Okay there appears to be three types of animals/critters/humanoids/thingsthatkillyou in Armageddon.

1. Indifferent beasts, like a chalton, doesn't give a fuck you walked into the room, you could sleep next to it and it won't hurt you.

2. I'm gonna kill you just because, like a scrab, no matter how many people are in the room, a fucking troop of ten people could march in and scrabs like, "Fuck you!"

3. What I will lovingly call, pussy creatures, things like Jozhal and such that soon as you walk in they flee.

Now this totally works, as it's been working for decades, but I have often thought that it's too simplistic and to omnipresent in a way.  Let me explain.

I walk into a room just adjacent to a scrab, it automatically knows I'm there and instantly walks in and attempts to murder me, same with every other aggressive critter in the game.  Only difference is some sneak in, some straight up charge in.

I think it would be more realistic and just more fun play wise if they perhaps would have to check their surroundings every little bit, instead of instantly knowing that you walked into the room to the east, when the rooms outdoors are vastly larger than many indoors, hence the stamina drain.

Perhaps make the critters have to look east or look direction to see you, versus instant awareness.  This would allow lots of things, one, could allow you to get a throw off if you see that scrab next to you when you go:
w
l n
l s
l w

Ep throwing shit, throw throwingshit scrab s

Which of course would then trigger the scrab to be like, hey, instant recognition some fuck threw a spear at me, go eat him.

Also on the pussy critters, if I throw a spear at one and it doesn't knock it down, why the hell would they just stand there and take another three throws or whatever?  Shouldn't they run away as soon as a weapon thuds to the sand?  I mean, just me walking into the area sends them fleeing, doesn't make sense that they won't run from objects being tossed into their general area.  Same with arrows.

I believe it used to be that if you shot an arrow at a critter from two rooms away, they would charge your ass and attack you.  Or I might be thinking of another game like the old Lord of the Rings mud, but if they are aggressive and intelligent, that might be exactly what a gith would do if you pelt an arrow at him.  A stupid Carru, maybe not.

I dunno, I just feel like mobs in general are fucking stupid and don't react how they normally would if this was a real place.  I mean, Bears can be mean as fuck if encountered in the woods, but if you walk through the woods with a group of ten people, all the noise from it will make them retreat, they won't just run up and eat the first guy just cause.


Part 2 of my thoughts on animals:

Alright, now I know a very common tactic for harder to kill critters you come across attacking a weaker thing, like say a newbie is trying to find a scrab, but scrab one on one fuck their world up, and they see a scrab fighting a scorpion, which they kill with ease.

You wander in, assist scorpion, fuck up the scrab, finish off the scorpion with little to no risk.

Now tactic aside, say nobody sees the scrab kill that scorpion.  Why did it kill it?  Territorial guarding, sure maybe, but I would like to think it's mostly cause the scrab is hungry, what drives most predators?  Hunger, need to sustain their young eggs (If that's what scrabs have?) or whatever.

Now if that scrab is out there murdering scorpions, chalton and the like, why don't they eat them?

A non-combat crafter could (with a lot of danger) simply wander the wastes near Allanak and skin the corpses of all the dead chalton that are killed by Scrab and other aggressive beasts, sometimes it's ridiculous the amount of dead things you'll find just trying to get from point A to point B.

I think the critter killing them should either drag their bodies back to their young (either really doing it or just make the corpse disappear with an emote)  Or should possibly skin the corpse and eat the meat or whatever.

I dunno, just my thoughts on the matter, what do you guys think?
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Vex

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2019, 01:33:49 AM »
I'd like animals to eat what they kill, or at least, leave some indication of what happened.

I'd sometimes find pieces of gear in the inv of scrabs, or raptors, or whatever. Sometimes gith stuff, sometimes pc stuff, sometimes other animal parts, and I always liked this... like I skin that raptor and pull out a boot, and it's like... oh, well, who did it eat? If I track it, can I find the other stuff?

Finding meats, or bits of organs, or some other animal/people parts and gear, inside of the animals that killed/ate them, would be a really neat flavor thing... as long as it's what it CODEDLY ate, not just... random stuff spawns in guts, on skinning. If it has a HUMAN LEG in its belly, I want it to be a pc, or at least an npc, to give it some gravity.

"Yea' Amos, someone done got got by that there gortok, yup... YEEAAAAAH BOY! DIBS ON THEIR BOOTS!"
"Mortals do drown so."

Cerelum

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2019, 02:15:19 AM »
100% would love some indication of death on the body.

That way it's not just a crumpled man in the sand, it will be a chewed on man in the sand, a cut up man in the sand, a burned man in the sand or whatever.

Maybe just have it based on the deathblow, so whatever killed ya.  Be in bloodloss, a wicked bite to the neck etc.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 12:25:53 PM by Cerelum »
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Jihelu

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2019, 09:45:31 PM »
I like the idea of knowing how someone died, tie it in with wilderness hunt (For animal deaths) or city hunt (For city based stabbing)

Maybe make it so you get a hint even if you have the other one.

A skilled assassin checks the body for wounds and notices "It was probably something from the outdoors, you can't tell"

A skilled outdoorsman checks the neckwound of someone "You don't know of any animal like this, it was probably something man-made"

However if you reversed them.

A skilled assassin checks the body "They were slain with a 'weapon' wound to the 'wherever'

A skilled outdoorsman checks the wound "They were clawed to death by a 'size' creature, there is fur/identifier on them"

Cerelum

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2019, 11:23:07 PM »
I'm enjoying some of the ideas here, hopefully someone with the coding power will too and make it happen.  Keep on coming with the ideas to make critters smarter and more realistic.
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Vex

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2019, 01:45:48 AM »
I like the idea of knowing how someone died, tie it in with wilderness hunt (For animal deaths) or city hunt (For city based stabbing)

Like it, but, I'd base it off bandage (our medical skill), rather than indoor or outdoor class.

Bandage and medicine, generally, could use "more", and this would be a rather nice benefit. Maybe, skill determines accuracy?
"Mortals do drown so."

Hauwke

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2019, 02:02:33 AM »
Or it could be tied to damage type. Anyone could tell if a dude was beaten to a bloody pulp by a club.

l corpse

This is a person, yadayada.

It appears they were violently bludgeoned to death.

It appears they have stinger wounds all over them.

It appears massive claws ripped chunks.

It appears that something took a bite.

AdamBlue

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2019, 05:51:10 AM »
Honestly, what surprises me the most is that shit like Mekillot and Bahamet are so aggressive. Why are they so aggressive? They're big as fuck and eat giant worms, one annoying little human or dwarf isn't gonna bother them unless they're hurting 'em a lot. Maybe a half-giant would rouse their territorialness, but...

Cabooze

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2019, 07:33:34 AM »
Honestly, what surprises me the most is that shit like Mekillot and Bahamet are so aggressive. Why are they so aggressive? They're big as fuck and eat giant worms, one annoying little human or dwarf isn't gonna bother them unless they're hurting 'em a lot. Maybe a half-giant would rouse their territorialness, but...

They should only become aggressive if they take damage. A chance to move in the direction they are taking damage from, if it isn't melee combat that is enraging them. (my humble opinion). Bahamet in particular are supposed to be 'opportune' hunters, so if you're sitting, resting 1 room away from them, they really should come chomp your ass... But they shouldn't actively chase you. It's not opportune, to chase something half-way across a game region. Mekillot similarly need to become more 'opportune' hunters, being their primary food source is plentiful in number and robust in meat from a single kill....

Maybe give certain creatures hunger? If they are hungry, they come for that ass (or another creature in general). If they kill a creature (or person) and feed from it, it should then represent such a thing on the creature's corpse, IE: "The viciously-mauled doe-eyed big-busted dwarf lays here, torn apart."  with a similar tag added to their mdesc (the bold and italic-marked keywords)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 08:08:05 AM by Cabooze »

Alesan

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2019, 10:44:51 AM »
That sounds like you want to make bahamet and mekillot less threatening! We can't have that now, can we?

All joking aside, why isn't Zalanthas full of deadly, aggressive creatures? Scrabs would hunt the chalton to extinction. Same with other things in other regions. If their current aggressiveness were to be taken realistically. Every region has one, two, or half a dozen creatures that will chase anything that moves at any time no matter what. How do lesser creatures even survive? Should I just assume that when a player isn't looking, those scrabs are leaving the chalton alone? Maybe they take a day off?

The answer, is that hostile creatures insta-chasing prey creatures is a construct of the game to make the game world dangerous. Those bahamets and mekillots will never stop chasing your ass as soon as they get a glimpse. Where's the fun in it if you can't get insta-killed for wandering too far away from civilization?

Cabooze

  • Posts: 286
Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2019, 11:07:56 PM »
The answer, is that hostile creatures insta-chasing prey creatures is a construct of the game to make the game world dangerous. Those bahamets and mekillots will never stop chasing your ass as soon as they get a glimpse. Where's the fun in it if you can't get insta-killed for wandering too far away from civilization?

Well, the idea is that they would continue to attack you under the proper circumstances. Walk into the same room as them? Most certainly. One room away? Not immediately, not if they aren't suffering from hunger from eating on a saltworm corpse or foraging for food. If you sit down? Shit, yeah. Easy meal.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 11:09:29 PM by Cabooze »

Alesan

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2019, 10:47:41 AM »
The answer, is that hostile creatures insta-chasing prey creatures is a construct of the game to make the game world dangerous. Those bahamets and mekillots will never stop chasing your ass as soon as they get a glimpse. Where's the fun in it if you can't get insta-killed for wandering too far away from civilization?

Well, the idea is that they would continue to attack you under the proper circumstances. Walk into the same room as them? Most certainly. One room away? Not immediately, not if they aren't suffering from hunger from eating on a saltworm corpse or foraging for food. If you sit down? Shit, yeah. Easy meal.

Yeah, I get you. And I agree. I'm just predicting that this won't change because it effectively changes the threat level of the outdoors in a meaningful way.

Cerelum

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2019, 12:03:23 PM »
Well, I would be more accepting of other dangers of the outdoors versus the unrealistic animals.

We already have pits that will probably kill you either from the fall or getting lost and dying slowly afterwards.

We have instakill rooms like the silt sea, we have plenty of danger that doesnít have to come from animals or bugs out in the wilderness.

Now an intelligent critter stalking you half way across the world, sure.  Gith that attack instantly, sure.

But I have to look in each direction to see the critter and make a decision to attack it.

I just think critters and enemies should have to do the same and not just instantly know there is someone to kill one room east RIGHT NOW.
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Brokkr

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2019, 12:19:51 PM »
Uh what?  There is a delay.  Which is why sometimes you ride up to the room by a scrab and it takes several seconds for them to come in, and sometimes you ride up and they come in instantly.

MeTekillot

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2019, 12:56:07 PM »
Nobody has mentioned the NPC double attack phenomenon. Is that a result of them attacking on one tick and then attacking on the next as it passes in?
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Cerelum

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2019, 01:16:01 PM »
Uh what?  There is a delay.  Which is why sometimes you ride up to the room by a scrab and it takes several seconds for them to come in, and sometimes you ride up and they come in instantly.

Well it seems to be more on the side of instantly.  Plus what Metkillot is saying.  Less than a second of critter walking in the room and it attacks you.  Or the attack, you flee and it follows you instantly.  Where if I walk in type kill Brokkr and you flee, Iím stuck with after attack delay and canít follow you the whole time youíre now five rooms away before I can move or anything.

Iíve had things like Meks solidly nite my head, I flee west, they instantly follow after that few seconds and attack me .02 seconds after I see them follow even though they should be stuck in attack delay.
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Brokkr

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2019, 01:45:24 PM »
I guess I would need to see it happen.  I've done a lot of combat and never seen what you are describing in years.  The fact you are saying "seconds" rather than "instantly" leads me to believe you are probably seeing it work properly with edge cases based on pulse timing.

As for less than a second, yes?  If you stack direction commands...that time between when you move into a room and move out is how long a critter has for a delay, and assumes the critter moves at the same speed as you, when in fact it could be faster.

Just remember it is pulse delay we are talking about.  It obviously can't be a delay based on when your character actually entered into a room vs when something reacts to it, as that would lead to some fairly obvious potential for abuse, unless your range started from 0....which is essentially what you get with pulses anyways.

Cerelum

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2019, 01:57:02 PM »
I guess I would need to see it happen.  I've done a lot of combat and never seen what you are describing in years.  The fact you are saying "seconds" rather than "instantly" leads me to believe you are probably seeing it work properly with edge cases based on pulse timing.

As for less than a second, yes?  If you stack direction commands...that time between when you move into a room and move out is how long a critter has for a delay, and assumes the critter moves at the same speed as you, when in fact it could be faster.

Just remember it is pulse delay we are talking about.  It obviously can't be a delay based on when your character actually entered into a room vs when something reacts to it, as that would lead to some fairly obvious potential for abuse, unless your range started from 0....which is essentially what you get with pulses anyways.

I mean I guess thatís fair as you know perception doesnít always match reality.

But I have noticed that say you walk in a Mek walks in, you instantly shit your pants and type e run e e e e

The last few commands are with you and your mount running, but itís entirely possible for the critter to follow you through all those rooms with a simple a ruddy killmachine walks in from the west four times.

I think their movement needs to be slower than a run speed.

But again, Iím just sharing perceptions not gospel.
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Vex

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2019, 02:47:07 PM »
I believe, it's because height seems to affect move speed, and a mekillot is huge.

Elves and half-giants, will leave you behind if they stack dirs, and some extremely big, or especially fast (like certain huge flying ones) creatures, will out pace even a running beetle or inix.

AFAIK, animals also have variation in height and weight on spawn, which would explain why, sometimes, you have almost instant chase>chase>attack situations, with mega faunas. It only takes ticks lining up, because they have really low move delays, due to height.

Tbh, I don't think it needs "fixed", as people already, don't really have any real fear of them.
"Mortals do drown so."

Brokkr

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2019, 03:53:26 PM »
I guess I would need to see it happen.  I've done a lot of combat and never seen what you are describing in years.  The fact you are saying "seconds" rather than "instantly" leads me to believe you are probably seeing it work properly with edge cases based on pulse timing.

As for less than a second, yes?  If you stack direction commands...that time between when you move into a room and move out is how long a critter has for a delay, and assumes the critter moves at the same speed as you, when in fact it could be faster.

Just remember it is pulse delay we are talking about.  It obviously can't be a delay based on when your character actually entered into a room vs when something reacts to it, as that would lead to some fairly obvious potential for abuse, unless your range started from 0....which is essentially what you get with pulses anyways.

I mean I guess thatís fair as you know perception doesnít always match reality.

But I have noticed that say you walk in a Mek walks in, you instantly shit your pants and type e run e e e e

The last few commands are with you and your mount running, but itís entirely possible for the critter to follow you through all those rooms with a simple a ruddy killmachine walks in from the west four times.

I think their movement needs to be slower than a run speed.

But again, Iím just sharing perceptions not gospel.

Are you sharing specific experience with mekillots or are you theorycrafting?  Cause I have played around with meks, a lot, and that has not ever been my experience, nor should it be, unless there is some sort of lag you are experiencing, which I am assuming would be immediately apparent.

lostinspace

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2019, 04:00:50 PM »
half-giant running sucks, I don't think it's any faster than walking. Maybe that's the issue you encountered?
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Cerelum

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2019, 04:04:41 PM »
I guess I would need to see it happen.  I've done a lot of combat and never seen what you are describing in years.  The fact you are saying "seconds" rather than "instantly" leads me to believe you are probably seeing it work properly with edge cases based on pulse timing.

As for less than a second, yes?  If you stack direction commands...that time between when you move into a room and move out is how long a critter has for a delay, and assumes the critter moves at the same speed as you, when in fact it could be faster.

Just remember it is pulse delay we are talking about.  It obviously can't be a delay based on when your character actually entered into a room vs when something reacts to it, as that would lead to some fairly obvious potential for abuse, unless your range started from 0....which is essentially what you get with pulses anyways.

I mean I guess thatís fair as you know perception doesnít always match reality.

But I have noticed that say you walk in a Mek walks in, you instantly shit your pants and type e run e e e e

The last few commands are with you and your mount running, but itís entirely possible for the critter to follow you through all those rooms with a simple a ruddy killmachine walks in from the west four times.

I think their movement needs to be slower than a run speed.

But again, Iím just sharing perceptions not gospel.

Are you sharing specific experience with mekillots or are you theorycrafting?  Cause I have played around with meks, a lot, and that has not ever been my experience, nor should it be, unless there is some sort of lag you are experiencing, which I am assuming would be immediately apparent.

I used a mek just for the example.

I try to stay the fuck away from the two hit ding machines in game.

But really most of the hostile critters I try to flee from will have this experience, scrabs,beetles etc.

They seem to walk as fast as my mount or I run.  And they seem to be able to instantly attack the moment they enter the room.

Iím at work now, but when I get home Iíll go run out into the desert and log some aggressive critter interactions and shoot a request in with the results.

And maybe a new character due to the added danger. Lol
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Brokkr

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2019, 04:08:02 PM »
Yeah, except you can't generalize in this case since each race has its own running and walking speed.

Cerelum

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2019, 04:11:47 PM »
Yeah, except you can't generalize in this case since each race has its own running and walking speed.

Oh I get that, however the hostile critters walk speed seems to always be faster than a war beetles run speed.

Which totally may be a feature and not a bug, but if so I think we need some faster mounts.
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Vex

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2019, 10:20:10 PM »
Which totally may be a feature and not a bug, but if so I think we need some faster mounts.

Everyone uses beetles, because beetles last longest when traveling (usually). They're not very fast, though...

If you want other benefits, consider other mounts and the benefits they have... such as the noble, speedy erdlu.
"Mortals do drown so."

Namino

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2019, 10:26:42 PM »
Which totally may be a feature and not a bug, but if so I think we need some faster mounts.

Everyone uses beetles, because beetles last longest when traveling (usually). They're not very fast, though...

If you want other benefits, consider other mounts and the benefits they have... such as the noble, speedy erdlu.

Inix are significantly faster than beetle as well, and you don't have to sacrifice so much distance as when you take an erdlu.

Erdlu are S tier mounts for running around in a city where there's no stamina drain for them though. It's literally anime action lines speed.

Cerelum

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2019, 11:33:57 PM »
Another illogical thing with animals.

If you throw something at them and knock them down, they will stay sitting indefinitely.

Only way they stand up is after you attack them.  I just sat in a room with a poisoned critter that was knocked down by my poisoned thing, and it just sat there for a good 15 minutes.

I think they should have the code that when they are knocked to sitting, they attempt to stand back up versus just laying there.
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gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Animal Logic - Let's make it better.
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2019, 05:59:15 PM »
Which totally may be a feature and not a bug, but if so I think we need some faster mounts.

Everyone uses beetles, because beetles last longest when traveling (usually). They're not very fast, though...

If you want other benefits, consider other mounts and the benefits they have... such as the noble, speedy erdlu.

Inix are significantly faster than beetle as well, and you don't have to sacrifice so much distance as when you take an erdlu.

Erdlu are S tier mounts for running around in a city where there's no stamina drain for them though. It's literally anime action lines speed.

I wish there were more enduring or mounts with interesting abilities that could be tamed. It bums me out that the most useful mount for nearly everyone can be bought in the first five minutes of chargen.

I remember hearing stories of sunbacks being able to use a tail action or something, but never saw it. I also find it biizarre that the only tameable beetles I know of in game are by far the worst mounts available and hardly comparable to their city-born cousins in any aspect. Gotta get whoever headed that breeding program in Borsail To narrow the celf/delf gap, huh? It worked with the beeltes.
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