Author Topic: Capitalization and Punctuation.  (Read 938 times)

Cerelum

  • Posts: 1969
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2019, 02:43:36 PM »
Bruh imagine playing a text-based game and expecting people to properly type.

I credit my ability to type fast on Muds.

Because you literally have to in most games unless they allow scripting.
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



Vex

  • Posts: 209
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2019, 03:20:24 PM »
This thread stinks a bit of elitism.


No.

If I can get the basics right, ANYONE can get the basics right. Uppercase at the start, period at the end. The rest of English can be difficult, especially when it's english from USA vs Europe vs Australia, each with their own rules, unwritten rules, and slangs, but the BASICs of start with uppercase, end with a period, or question mark, or whatever, is something ANYONE capable of playing the game, can do.

Calling this elitist, reminds me of being "called out" for "discrimination", when I called a coworker ridiculous for saying "lol" out loud and talking, like she was having a teenagers text convo at all times. It's an absurdity.

Uppercase at the start, period at the end. If I can, you can. No excuses.
"Mortals do drown so."

Bebop

  • Posts: 3840
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2019, 03:45:56 PM »
I'll admit this thread is a little bit elitist.

I'll also admit that if I see you lacking correct grammar, spelling and punctuation consistently I'm going to assume you're a nub or dumb-dumb and I may avoid you a little bit.  Sorry.

I am terrible at spelling, I make mistakes even though I will sometimes literally be Googling words I'm unsure of.  Do you know how long I misspelled uncertain or get confused with rogue and rouge but I'm trying dangit.  I can at least capitalize and punctuate.  That's basic grammar across almost any language.  Sheesh.

Dresan

  • Posts: 1261
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2019, 03:59:04 PM »
If this were an idea thread it would be one thing. However it came with a 'PSA' and anyone not following the OPs standards of excellence is potentially lazy.  Yes some people have better grammar and writing than others however no one takes the time to log in, create a character, pose, talk and rp with you wanting to write a grammatically bad sentence on purpose.

Again this is not an issue i have noticed. However you know what i have noticed? That the population isn't what it used to be, and attracting newbies is important. This sort of thread makes games like this intimating to new players. The fact most people won't see this thead is a good thing.

Lastly this thread seems like the a thinly veiled attempt to openly criticize another specific player. Something which if so aggregious might have been better served using the reporting tool.

I think we've already established this is pure elitism, no need for me to comment further on that.

 
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Riev

  • Posts: 5330
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2019, 04:16:26 PM »
Dresan, I don't want to dress down your concerns, because I am at the forefront of saying our community is toxic and elitist and incredibly insular at the BEST of times.

However, it began as a "Please try to do better" and has evolved into "Maybe we can do this codedly to actually IMPROVE the experience on all sides."

You, however, are devolving it into something it isn't (personal criticism), and I HOPE its not because you think we should have low standards. It is not one player, or one PC that does this. I have not played in 6 months, and I know people were doing it then, too. Maybe they don't know. Maybe the GDB won't reach the ones it IS touching.

I think you're striving to take offense, but nobody here is saying "you suck at English get off the game noob". Its "We have a few basic rules. One is that we're a roleplaying INTENSIVE community, so please understand we expect effort". I don't know when that expectation was lessened, but we can change it codedly. If not serverside, I would gladly switch to Mudlet to keep my experience alive.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

ShaLeah

  • Posts: 5303
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2019, 04:34:53 PM »
I think we've already established...

... that some people take grammar seriously and others are SJWing for those that might feel attacked/singled out by that seriousness.

English is my second language.  As a flowery, over the top some might say, emoter I am CONSTANTLY hearing how my character sounds.  I'll re-enter an entire say/tell/emote because of a typo. I break run ons so they make sense.

Do I expect people to do as I do? No.

I *do* expect to understand wtf is being said and since the only method of communication is TEXTUAL you better make sure you're being understood.

say fuck you templar sally motherfucker said he will help cut up the body sexy

say Fuck! You... Templar.  Sally, motherfucker said he will help cut up the body. Sexy.

say Fuck you, Templar Sally! Motherfucker said:  "He will help.  Cut up the body, sexy.".

If the shoe fits? Wear it.
If you don't care about the shoes? Don't buy them.

Personally, I aint got no fucking problem saying I'm an elitist.

I don't think expecting basic 3rd grade grammar is elitist or somehow asking too much.


Refusing to play with, avoiding, formally complaining about, publicly humiliating, breaking character to correct someone? Yeah... that's a bit elitist I'd say.

Can it be fixed with code or client? I'd be curious to see.
I'm taking an indeterminate break from Armageddon for the foreseeable future and thereby am not available for mudsex.
Quote
In law a man is guilty when he violates the rights of others. In ethics he is guilty if he only thinks of doing so.

Dresan

  • Posts: 1261
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2019, 04:47:38 PM »
Not really striving to take offense. Just pointing some thing out since not everyone playing this game comes off seeming so elitst.

 This was not just an idea and while it started civilized enough it devolved to calling others lazy and people threatening not to play with others for grammar mistakes. If that not toxic not sure what is, now people are free to voice their opinions and play with whom they want but I don't agree with with the opinions voice here nor that they are even an issue in the game. If they are use the reporting tool.

Since one of my own pet peeves is people who don't realize that their own shit smells, I for one am thankful forgetting a period or comma might shoo some of these people away. Thanks.
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Riev

  • Posts: 5330
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2019, 05:00:02 PM »
So. Conversationally speaking, you ARE taking offense to a suggested idea, and people asking that you respect the game and the players by putting forth the effort to capitalize a letter and add a period?

I didn't see threats.
I didn't see "Fuck newbies".
I didn't see a single thing about "lazy" people who can't do it.

Its about respect and standards. And for the umpteenth fucking time, we're trying to fix it so that the people who AREN'T able to capitalize or use periods don't HAVE to.

Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Dresan

  • Posts: 1261
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2019, 05:08:42 PM »
Hey Riev, stop taking offense. My point is i don't agree with what is being said here and as for threats if you aren't seeing where people have written they rather not play with people who make grammar mistakes...umm..well okay then.

Lets just agree to disagree.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 06:06:01 PM by Dresan »
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Cerelum

  • Posts: 1969
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2019, 05:09:06 PM »
Still say the code should just do it.  Capitalize beginning letter and auto add a period.
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



Vex

  • Posts: 209
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2019, 09:07:35 PM »
I didn't see threats.

To be fair...

I'll also admit that if I see you lacking correct grammar, spelling and punctuation consistently I'm going to assume you're a nub or dumb-dumb and I may avoid you a little bit.  Sorry.

But, in this case, I mean... "Bebop", so.

It isn't elitist, imo, to expect basic standards, nor do I think it's a poor show, for people to want to add coded assistance for basic stuff, like periods when no other argument is entered by the player. It shows forward thinking, and a willingness to provide assistance to those who may need it, to be more coherent when participating.

FYI, if you tried to play a Russian game and didn't have a THOROUGH understanding of the language? You would be kick/banned, and insulted to boot, you better believe it. French, Japanese... most games? If you don't type like a native, you are GONE. No questions, so lofty are their expectations.

Expecting very basic, entry level grammar, for a pure text game, and otherwise tolerating ESLs of all levels? That is very reasonable, and as standards go, quite generous, given the medium. Not to say there are not failure human beings... who would exclude people for it... but the majority, is very patient and tolerant.

I'm sorry, but really D, you seem the very confused white knight, atm.
"Mortals do drown so."

Dresan

  • Posts: 1261
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2019, 10:07:28 PM »
Funny, I can't say I'm too familiar with the whole sjw/white knight stuff (I am getting too old to understand the new-age hippie stuff).

I really do find it humorously silly that disagreeing with the elitism expressed in this thread is considered any form of 'social justice'. heh.  ::)

I'll agree though, put in whatever code, anything that will make threads like this moot.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 10:21:25 PM by Dresan »
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Shiguy2

  • Posts: 13
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2019, 11:08:34 PM »
I am probably a part of why this thread started, seeing as how I am one of those who does not capitalize the first word in what I say, so allow me to explain what is going through my mind when I type out my communication for the game. I do sometimes take the time to capitalize it but most of the time, I do not bother with it. My reasoning for this is that we are supposed to play this like how we would act if we were our pcs. If I was my pc, I would have no idea what words someone was capitalizing when I speak to them, and they would have no idea of my capitalization. Capitalization, to me, is an OOC thing that makes little difference. When you speak, there is often little difference between a letter you would capitalize when you write, versus one you would leave alone.

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10224
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2019, 11:09:28 PM »
That's not how English works.
we are here to hack motherfuckers up with bone swords,

Shiguy2

  • Posts: 13
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2019, 11:12:35 PM »
Care to add a bit more detail so that I can respond better?

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10224
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2019, 11:49:12 PM »
Care to add a bit more detail so that I can respond better?
An excellent response to someone who doesn't use capitalization and punctuation correctly. Incorrect English typing takes other people out of the game that relies solely on typing to communicate. Taking people out of the scene is bad.
we are here to hack motherfuckers up with bone swords,

Veselka

  • Posts: 880
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2019, 02:06:01 AM »
I am probably a part of why this thread started, seeing as how I am one of those who does not capitalize the first word in what I say, so allow me to explain what is going through my mind when I type out my communication for the game. I do sometimes take the time to capitalize it but most of the time, I do not bother with it. My reasoning for this is that we are supposed to play this like how we would act if we were our pcs. If I was my pc, I would have no idea what words someone was capitalizing when I speak to them, and they would have no idea of my capitalization. Capitalization, to me, is an OOC thing that makes little difference. When you speak, there is often little difference between a letter you would capitalize when you write, versus one you would leave alone.

Imagine reading a book, where the dialogue looked as it does in the context you are stating.

"where did he go george"
"i don't know boss i think that way"
the man grunted and shook his head
"oh that way"

I see what you are saying. That you would like to keep a scene fluid. But the fact that my computer automatically corrects sentences to include a capital at the beginning sort of disqualifies the idea that it isn't how the common rules of English function. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this -- ICly a PC wouldn't know the difference between a capitalized sentence or word and a non-capitalized sentence or word? Or a complete sentence? Or how something is said with inflection, or whether or not it is a question?

Clearly Staff has already taken an interest in inflection and tone, by adding things like Italics and Bold and Underline to says and emotes. They understand the nuance of the English language, and how one thing can be said many different ways, and have many different meanings by how it is said. As we have no voice actors, or any audio whatsoever, we only have inflection to tell us how something should be heard'in our mind after reading it. Much as in common literature. Various styles of writing accomplish this in different methods. Breaking up quotations, with small actions in-between, or internal dialogue to match the emotions and mood to what is being said.

Yes, it is an OOC construct, just as reading a book is an OOC construct. I am not a character reading a book, I am myself, reading a book. There are mostly literate people behind the PCs they are playing. They enjoy reading books, and narratives, and collective storytelling, or they wouldn't be playing this game for the most part. Even if someone told me the Best Book In the World was available to purchase, and I read one paragraph with dialogue written in that fashion, I would toss the book away and shrug and move on. I would also probably think that friend was fucking with me.

Why should I take a book so poorly written and edited seriously? And, insofar as the game is concerned, why should I take a PC that chooses to not capitalize or punctuate properly, seriously? I might cursorly play around them. I might withstand them. But I certainly won't go out of my way to have my PC get to know them better, or take a deep dive into their past, or become friends.

And yes, that's just me. My personal feelings on the matter. I'm not saying they're empirically right. But it's a text-based game. We communicate through that medium. If a Player chooses not to respect that medium purposefully, there is no justifiable reason I have to respect that person or play around them more than I need to. We clearly have a different approach to the game (of which there are many). I was mostly erring on the side of caution with this, from the beginning. I was excusing those who are not as capable in punctuation or capitalization, be it due to blindness, being ESL, or playing from a system where that is more difficult to perform. If anything, it would provide more veracity to these people's play, and level the playing field between all players.

And, as has been stated previously, this would be made a moot point by auto-capitilization and punctuation with communication commands, as it is currently executed with emotes.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 02:18:11 AM by Veselka »
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

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Eyeball

  • Posts: 1022
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2019, 02:51:26 AM »
I am probably a part of why this thread started, seeing as how I am one of those who does not capitalize the first word in what I say, so allow me to explain what is going through my mind when I type out my communication for the game. I do sometimes take the time to capitalize it but most of the time, I do not bother with it. My reasoning for this is that we are supposed to play this like how we would act if we were our pcs. If I was my pc, I would have no idea what words someone was capitalizing when I speak to them, and they would have no idea of my capitalization. Capitalization, to me, is an OOC thing that makes little difference. When you speak, there is often little difference between a letter you would capitalize when you write, versus one you would leave alone.

Everyone knows how to start and end a sentence when they're speaking.

The character isn't writing on a scroll and handing the communication over to someone else. The character is speaking. Knowledge of writing correctly isn't an issue.

As players, we have to do the typing of the communication. We know how to designate when a sentence starts (by capitalizing) and when it ends (with a period). We're just communicating what the characters involved would naturally perceive.

Riev

  • Posts: 5330
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2019, 09:49:46 AM »
This is why some people are fans of the ellipsis, a la

"I'm not entire sure, you know..."
This signifies that you may not be done with your speech, or you might end it with a shrug, or what have you.

We're all a storyteller, in our own way, telling our PCs stories. It is up to us, as players, to express that story to OTHER PLAYERS in a manner that allows a smooth roleplaying experience on both sides.

I would much prefer if you learned to use capitalization at the beginning of sentences, or use punctuation, because otherwise you are not communicating in a matter that allows me to smoothly respond with an in-character action.

But if you prefer not to? Fine. I still want the server to process it with those things, so that if you're the 1/50 people who thinks you do not NEED to capitalize, you aren't marginalized and booted from the game with threads like this.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7923
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2019, 11:01:05 AM »
And then there are the habitual elipses users.

Hi, how are you...
(you wait for the rest of the sentence)
(turns out, that was the whole thing)
I'm fine. Yourself?

Just great...
(you wait for the "but" to qualify why not so great)
(it never comes)

If the entire conversation is like that, I get confused.

As for intentionally not capitalizing or punctuating because your character doesn't know about it: your character doesn't know about text, either. But that doesn't stop you from typing into your game buffer. It's not your character typing. It's you, the player. And you are presenting your character via the text that you are portraying, not through an audio media source. As such, it is up to we, the players, to interpret the text that we're reading so that we can portray our characters' responses appropriately.

Here's a great ancient word puzzle to better express the confusion when someone chooses incorrect capitalization and inappropriate punctuation:

Every Lady in this Land
Hath 20 Nails on each Hand;
Five & twenty on Hands and Feet;
And this is true, without deceit.

If you've never seen this one before, chew on it for awhile.
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Riev

  • Posts: 5330
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2019, 11:31:47 AM »
Here's a great ancient word puzzle to better express the confusion when someone chooses incorrect capitalization and inappropriate punctuation:

Every Lady in this Land
Hath 20 Nails on each Hand;
Five & twenty on Hands and Feet;
And this is true, without deceit.

If you've never seen this one before, chew on it for awhile.

I need help. Is it that because Hand and Feet are capitalized, its actually talking about proper noun "Hands" as in Handmaidens and such?

Or is it that Nails is capitalized, and since it is a proper noun without context, it doesn't necessarily mean fingernails?

MY BRAIN HURTS.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Nameless Face

  • Posts: 392
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2019, 12:02:36 PM »
Every Lady in this Land Hath 20;
Nails on each Hand, Five &
Twenty on Hands and Feet;
And this is true, without deceit.

Lizzie

  • Posts: 7923
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2019, 02:05:33 PM »
Every lady in this land hath 20 nails.
On each hand, five, and
twenty on hands on feet.
And this is true, without deceit.

Edited: I actually goofed! Fixed.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 03:41:21 PM by Lizzie »
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

Riev

  • Posts: 5330
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2019, 02:15:53 PM »
Aggghhh I fell into the trap.
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 1969
Re: Capitalization and Punctuation.
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2019, 02:21:24 PM »
Simply put, in a game that relies on english text to portray actions, emotion and speech.

You should be properly punctuating your shit unless it's an outright mistake.

Otherwise it's like going to play paintball but not wanting to get any paint on yourself.  You're devaluing the whole experience.
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.