Author Topic: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo  (Read 505 times)

Dresan

  • Posts: 1302
Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« on: April 06, 2019, 09:30:35 PM »
(puts on his flame resistant suit and takes a deep breathe)

We all see it, strong newly created human or dwarf etwo sparring weapon and they reel the sergeants with a strike to the head with ease.

You want defense, sacrificing number of attacks and damage--use a shield.
You want more chances for attack, more chances to parry, hitting more but for less damage per each strike, parrying more but less success-- duel wield.
You MOAR damage-you wield that huge weapon with two hands and swing it.

The problem is that two handed style not only has damage bonus, attack speed bonus, defense bonus but an offense bonus that multiplies with other offense bonuses and cuts through defense like a hot knife through butter.

Adding the fact some of the two handed weapons are the heaviest most damaging weapons in the game and all the other offense bonuses provided by other skills and it just feels so broken. If you want more damage per hit, that is fine but other styles should have a MUCH MUCH easier time defending against you.

There shouldn't be any offense bonus for any of the styles, AND at the very least an offense penalty for two handed style.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 09:32:36 PM by Dresan »
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cnemus

  • Posts: 209
Re: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2019, 01:18:37 AM »
My personal experience is that each fighting style has its time and place. I don't really have any problems with that. I really wanted an excuse to meme.


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only_plays_tribals

  • Posts: 221
Re: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2019, 01:53:46 AM »
Shields are immensely good at stopping an attack. Witnessed repeatedly with strong PC's/dwarves etc and etwo against a shield and that hit is blocked. I've seen newer PCs near out of chargen block much much older combat PC's etwo'ing.

Dual wield useful for multiple reasons. Like for example deploying two poison blades for double the chance in case a hit doesn't take effect. Also it is harder in my experience to block/dodge/parry dual wield attacks. One is likely more likely to sneak through, which can help to remedy the above issue where you can't get in past someone / somethings defense. It's a nice middle balance

Etwo hits like a truck, if you have the ability to get past the defensive ability of your opponent (shields, followed by parry, followed by dodge) It does also have some clear benefit in defense. But it also leaves you vulnerable against a disarm where you will be stuck without a weapon, possibly for a round or two depending on timing. And being totally unarmed easily turns deadly lethal in many cases.

This all works as described far as I've seen, and it feels pretty balanced IMHO.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 01:59:49 AM by only_plays_tribals »
You begin searching the area intently.
You look around, but don't find any large wood.
You think: "Story of my life."

Dresan

  • Posts: 1302
Re: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2019, 02:27:02 AM »
Not disputing the merits and usefulness of each style, just saying two-handed style (in combination with other offense bonuses) makes it too easy too get through those defenses and land superior amounts of damage.

There is something wrong when a newbie that can't land a single with dual wielding switches to two-handed style and is able to reel the sergeant with a solid hit to the head.

 
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Greve

  • Posts: 161
Re: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2019, 02:48:36 AM »
I think etwo may be the most effective style if you have the stats for it, but it's also harder to train. The two handed skill is covered by the off vs. def code that's been discussed lately, which dual wield and shield use aren't, according to Brokkr. Also, since you seem to get an offense bonus from etwo, it's harder to miss your attacks and thus to skill up weapons. When I play etwo fighters, I end up having to train two handed and weapons separately because etwo slows your skill growth to a significant extent.

Namino

  • Posts: 455
Re: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2019, 06:29:10 AM »
Etwo is extremely easy to train. Easier, in fact, than dual-wielding by far. (Edit: I re-read the above post and it seems to be suggesting that etwo makes everything ELSE harder to train, which is absolutely true).

Etwo has a hidden roll at the beginning of every Dikutick. If you succeed that roll, you get a speed acceleration on your attack. If you fail it, you get a tick of etwo. So if you're wondering why sometimes you're ORAORAORA with your etwo'd weapon, and sometimes you're slow as all get out, that's why. It's also why etwo will eventually get to master no matter what -- because there's a flat chance to fail it no matter how good you are, and it isn't linked to your offense/defense or your opponent's dodges.

Each weapon style has advantages/disadvantages for certain scenarios. However, etwo is definitely superior in most ways, because the scenarios in which the other weapon styles are better suited, whereas etwo's style does the two most versatile things best -- deal damage, and boosts your defense to avoid damage.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 06:31:20 AM by Namino »

Greve

  • Posts: 161
Re: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2019, 07:18:08 AM »
What I meant is that it's generally harder to train if your chosen style is etwo. The other styles can be worked on 100% of the time at no inherent cost, but two handed pretty much requires that you split your training up between etwo and weapon skills because etwo gives significant bonuses to offense or some other factor in hit rolls. Clans also tend to just tell you that you're not allowed to spar with etwo, which I never understood because dual wield has an even higher potential for accidents and, for lack of a better term, damage output.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 07:19:46 AM by Greve »

Krath

  • Posts: 2577
Re: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2019, 01:45:24 PM »
I completely disagree with the OPs stance.

While it may seem like ETWO hits like a truck, which it does, there are negs that make it balanced.
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

X-D

  • Posts: 5658
Re: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2019, 06:56:29 PM »
I do not use etwo, I prefer my PCs to survive mega encounters....or 3 gith.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Derain

  • Posts: 808
Re: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2019, 09:40:19 PM »
Agree with X-D ETWO in a larger encounter isn't much worth the trouble.

PriestlySiren

  • Posts: 987
Re: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2019, 10:16:48 PM »
Etwo against arrows. The arrows win.

Eyeball

  • Posts: 1101
Re: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2019, 02:19:57 AM »
Etwo against arrows. The arrows win.

Indeed.  :( Although heavy armor would help against arrows.

Riev

  • Posts: 5528
Re: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2019, 10:00:37 AM »
ETWO was fixed a while ago so that it wasn't so easy to max out for no freaking reason. Even when it was:

two handed master. Slashing at Journeyman/near Advanced. EG strength.
I could kill a raptor, let me tell you, but if I didn't have the disarm skill/defense against it, I'd be screwed. Krath forbid if you disarm my glaive to the north, and now I have to rely on my 1h dagger I keep in my belt?
Masks are the Armageddon equivalent of Ed Hardy shirts.

Namino

  • Posts: 455
Re: Imbalance between fighting styles- etwo
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2019, 11:05:09 PM »
Well...

Quote
<Someone> says, in northern-accented allundean:
     "Hm."

110/120hp 107/218mv 114/114 | running, manageable, armed | late morning on Cingel

Glancing to her, you say to <Someone>, in allundean:

     "I told you to clear out."

110/120hp 107/218mv 114/114 | running, manageable, armed | late morning on Cingel
To the west is
Entrance to a Sheer Walled Canyon.
[Far]
Nothing.
[Near]
Nothing.

110/120hp 107/218mv 114/114 | running, manageable, armed | late morning on Cingel
North of here is a Sheer Walled Canyon.
[Very far]
Nothing.
[Far]
Nothing.
[Near]
Nothing.

110/120hp 107/218mv 114/114 | running, manageable, armed | late morning on Cingel

A grey and black fletched, agate-headed arrow flies in from the north but you knock it out of the
air using a curved, obsidian-skull hilted falchion.


110/120hp 107/218mv 114/114 | running, manageable, armed | late morning on Cingel

Glancing off to the west, you say to <someone>, in allundean:

     "There's fighting.."

For reasons I won't elaborate too much on, there's a strong chance that etwo is actually far better against arrows than shields in some circumstances.

Edit: Also this was the most T-800 moment of my Armageddon career.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 12:36:10 AM by Namino »