Author Topic: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.  (Read 1304 times)

Cerelum

  • Posts: 1975
Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« on: April 03, 2019, 01:21:01 PM »
I donít know if this is allowed to be discussed or not, so if not, just delete and no hard feelings.

Crime code is deadly in this game, as it should be.  But even when itís not deadly, it costs you massively in coin and gear,  not to mention grounding you for however long in a cell till either a Templar finds you or your time expires.

But thatís not really the main issue in my opinion, the main issue is where and when it applies...

I have read various posts from staff and players alike that sorta hint that crime code exists based on time of day and relation and distance to soldier npcs and vnpc population.

So say I steal from a guy and next room over is a soldier, he screams, Iím wanted because common sense.

But sometimes the room will say something along the lines of ďvery few people are around at this time of nightĒ no soldier in any direction and youíll still get wanted when you fail to pickpocket npc or played x.

Also there are other skills such as plant and latch that supposedly run off the same rules.

Iíve had no luck in getting any training in any of the illegal arts really due to this seemingly omnipotent crime code, plus it exists in clan areas as well so it seems like the only way to train them without getting arrested is in the rinth, but I donít know if thatís intended or a just how it goes.  I have never been in the rinth with my criminal PCs because I didnít create there and last time some npc muttered something and murdered me on like day one.

I think fheís we understood better how to navigate the rules of the crime code, we would be able to have a more realistic and living world outside of training to master in the rinth then robbing the south.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 01:34:37 PM by Cerelum »
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



Feco

  • Posts: 1968
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2019, 01:22:29 PM »
If you find rooms that you think aren't acting right based on their descriptions, I'd bug them or something.  Staff can review them, that way.
Quote
Sunshine all the time makes a desert.
Vote at TMS
Vote at TMC

Cerelum

  • Posts: 1975
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2019, 01:36:14 PM »
If you find rooms that you think aren't acting right based on their descriptions, I'd bug them or something.  Staff can review them, that way.

I would say your right for most things, but when you become wanted you need to worry about running and donít have time.
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



Brokkr

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 699
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2019, 01:41:38 PM »
We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 1975
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2019, 01:54:37 PM »
We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Fair enough.  Just sharing my feelings on the matter, I do think that some of the docs could be updated such as the thieves bible and such.

Something to give someone a little nudge in realistic thievery and cloak and dagger type shit though.
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



Eyeball

  • Posts: 1022
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2019, 06:22:27 PM »
Don't see why there couldn't be a 'survey' command (or skill, maybe) for this, that gives its results by your location and the presence of NPCs.

>survey
You feel several sets of eyes upon you.

>survey
A soldier is nearby.

> survey
The coast is clear!

It might make more sense than having to basically buy the knowledge by expending characters and transferring it OOCly to the next one.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2757
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2019, 09:19:23 PM »
I feel like 'wasting a few characters' for the sake of learning Crimecode is a bit fail RP, don't you think?

Deliberately going out to just commit crimes in certain areas would take some pretty big amount of juggling as opposed to what the poster above suggested.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 1975
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2019, 10:41:46 PM »
Well, on the subject of wasting a few characters...

I think that all depends on the AoD and the Templars who respond to the crime.

I've had pickpockets under the old system who were literally stripped naked of everything they own on the first capture, thrown out into the streets and had to then steal and do shady shit to attempt to survive as they had no food and water.

While I have never played a Templar, I think this type of reaction is extremely heavy handed and not great for roleplay.

Now I've also been straight killed in the cell by Templars, again, not great but hey they have the power.

Now I've had what I would consider, for lack of better words, "Good" templars who threaten, posture and maybe take a little something from you, but don't leave you destitute and or simply threaten you.  These are great interactions because they don't damn you right off the rip.


Honestly the most damning thing about the crime code is the weapon confiscation I think.  Because even things that aren't technically weapons but CAN operate as weapons, such as shovel can be stripped from ya.  So now even if said templar allows you to escape and pardons your crimes, you're out possibly a few small in every little item that qualifies as a weapon, including skinning knives, shovels, etc.

If I could wave a magick wand and change one thing, it would be that weapons below a certain value were returned when you're released from jail.  Simply for a playability viewpoint.

I do understand that you can contact the Templar (possibly a soldier?) and get your stuff back potentially through roleplay and bribes etc.  But in the past when I've tried this, it was either crazy expensive or just not on the table.
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



Eyeball

  • Posts: 1022
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2019, 08:01:14 AM »
In any case, we don't have pickpockets any more, we have miscreants who can both break in and steal from inventories, and quite possibly kick your ass if you try to do anything about it.

Inevitably once a few pickpockets/burglars had worked themselves up and become an invincible plague on the city, people without fortresses of solitude would just abandon their apartments and start managing their inventories carefully, and the loot then dried up. They used to go away after that, but now miscreants are quite capable of doing well in second and third careers. So they can linger on, screwing other people as a hobby while daylighting quite successfully, for example, in the Byn. The fun will never stop! No surprise then that the apartments above the Gaj are nearly all up for grabs now, is it.

tl;dr Why worry about the crimcode given that everyone will perpetually turtle now.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 08:28:37 AM by Eyeball »

Dresan

  • Posts: 1266
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2019, 09:12:38 AM »
First of all, losing all your L33T gear to player or code is never an issue. No matter how many times it happens. In the desert most players may leave you with a waterskin, but if they don't well...tough.

Now, if you were being caught and murdered immediately then maybe it would be worth a discussion. But really even that is still a big maybe. (Protip, this command will help you get out of jail the first couple of times: just type: emote gets on the ground and tries to kiss %templar feet as they sob and beg for mercy.)

The only thing about the crimcode I would currently change is that sometimes when you become wanted you aren't explicitly told unless you type 'stat'. Other than that it is fine.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 09:14:51 AM by Dresan »
This message was brought to you by a fair weather player.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 1975
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2019, 09:14:47 AM »
The only thing about the crimcode I would currently change is that sometimes when you become wanted you aren't explicitly told unless you type 'stat'. Other than that it is fine.

Yeah especially with the new colorful Armageddon, make that shit bright RED and big.
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



rinthrat

  • Posts: 51
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2019, 01:10:39 PM »
I've had pickpockets under the old system who were literally stripped naked of everything they own on the first capture, thrown out into the streets and had to then steal and do shady shit to attempt to survive as they had no food and water.

I would have a great time if someone did this to my criminal. YMMV.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 1975
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2019, 01:31:30 PM »
I've had pickpockets under the old system who were literally stripped naked of everything they own on the first capture, thrown out into the streets and had to then steal and do shady shit to attempt to survive as they had no food and water.

I would have a great time if someone did this to my criminal. YMMV.

Well, my only gripe about it is that I already suck enough to be caught and jailed, it's not going to have improved much from my time in jail.  So chances are I end up getting drug back to jail naked and then murdered.

Edit:  Add in the bug or "feature" of soldiers replicating themselves and that's another guard that has a chance of running in and subduing and/or murdering you.  As I understand how scan, sneak and such work is it's a random chance based on how skilled the hider,sneaker or scanner is.  So having multiple of the soldiery, soldier five blocks around is making it harder to escape notice.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 01:36:46 PM by Cerelum »
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10226
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2019, 01:44:58 PM »
Just kill the extra soldier copies. Duh.
we are here to hack motherfuckers up with bone swords,

Veselka

  • Posts: 882
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2019, 01:54:22 PM »
It would be nice if you could attempt a subdue while combatants are engaged in combat. So if Player A and Player B are fighting one another, you can attempt to subdue player A or player B.

What I've noticed is most deadly about Crimecode is when/if you are engaged in combat, a soldier rushes in, can't subdue you, so they immediately attack you. If, for instance, you are attempting to mug an NPC, and a half-giant soldier who wasn't there 5 seconds ago (you checked before trying to sap/kill/maim), they arrive one room to the east, and come in and clobber you to death.

It makes sense that especially large creatures like half-giants could intervene in a combat and subdue someone, perhaps with more difficulty, or possibly taking damage.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Vex

  • Posts: 213
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2019, 03:13:18 PM »
It would be nice if you could attempt a subdue while combatants are engaged in combat. So if Player A and Player B are fighting one another, you can attempt to subdue player A or player B.

Absolutely not.
"Mortals do drown so."

Cerelum

  • Posts: 1975
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2019, 03:28:16 PM »
It would be nice if you could attempt a subdue while combatants are engaged in combat. So if Player A and Player B are fighting one another, you can attempt to subdue player A or player B.

Absolutely not.

Why not?  You don't think it's realistic to run up and detain someone who's sword fighting with another person?
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



Vex

  • Posts: 213
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2019, 03:53:48 PM »
Why not?  You don't think it's realistic to run up and detain someone who's sword fighting with another person?

It's like throw.

Subdue is an adequately powerful skill, and it's limitations serve to keep it from being too broken.

With the "suggestion", you're in combat with a two strong men from Red Storm, they're raiders, out to get your loot. You're tough and you're able to match them. One decides, no, we can't win, and so they disengage, and spam subdue on you while you're fighting, until they're successful. Their friend kills you in two hits, because being subdued is even WORSE than being unarmed, and not only that, but subdue doesn't break when someone attacks the subdued target. So, instead of a pitched fight, you're annihilated in seconds, by two people who cannot beat you in a melee. They suffer ZERO risk, in doing so, due to you being locked in combat with one of them, whilst the other can disengage, even if you kick/bash them, to keep out of combat, and therefor, continue to spam you with subdue, safe from being torn apart in melee, due to their unarmed status.

Sounds GREAT if you're one the winning side, but it would be quite shite, to be the victim of it.

CURRENTLY, you cannot be subdued mid-combat. If that duo wants to pull off a subdue and screw, they need to attempt it BEFORE combat starts, and must be unarmed in order to do so, meaning if they fail, they're stuck in a post-attempt lockout, unarmed, while you, are free to bloody them up some.

Subdue is very powerful, but kept in check by the risks involved in an attempt.

Another example: You're out in the sand, hunting a scrab. You're green, but you can down scrab with some cuts and scrapes. Enter a dwarf, arriving from the east. He subdues you, while the scrab inflicts horrendous damage to your neck, over and over. You die. How happy are you, with this outcome? You're not, unless you're the dwarf. Or the scrab, though I suspect, the scrab will not get a cut of your loots...

Currently, this is not possible. He would need to get you before, or after. And subdue on it's own, won't let him kill cheese you, because drawing a weapon or attacking, will release you first.

Like throw, it is a potent skill kept in check by its situational usefulness, and a necessary risk vs reward. The proposed change, imo, would lead to heavy abuse, rather than a less brutal crimcode.
"Mortals do drown so."

Veselka

  • Posts: 882
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2019, 04:18:32 PM »
Perhaps mostly in the case of NPC soldiers, is my main point. If you are in combat and a soldier comes in, it doesn't matter if you have no-save arrest on, they will attempt to kill you because they cannot 'peacefully' end the combat and arrest you.
Live your life as though your every act were to become a universal law.

--Immanuel Kant

Eyeball

  • Posts: 1022
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2019, 04:20:35 PM »
First of all, losing all your L33T gear to player or code is never an issue. No matter how many times it happens.

Realistically, it should be one. There are all sorts of measures the game doesn't allow that one could reasonably use to protect against theft.

1. You can't bar doors.

2. You can't get decent locks or multiple locks as a commoner.

3. You can't hire NPCs, either directly, or through communal contributions (e.g. part of rent from all renters going toward NPCs patrols).

4. You can't find a maxed-out thief hiding in a small empty room.

5. You can't set traps, not even simple alarm traps.

6. You can't hide things beneath floor boards or behind that loose brick or in a special hollow bed leg or  whatever.

It's no mystery that you don't find any really successful indie merchants. Everything is designed to keep you vulnerable. I believe this is part of a general philosophy that independents should not succeed (i.e. they should always be on the margins). Adding balanced-based (not flat) fees to Nenyuk was another example of this.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 04:31:49 PM by Eyeball »

Cerelum

  • Posts: 1975
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2019, 04:26:49 PM »
Perhaps mostly in the case of NPC soldiers, is my main point. If you are in combat and a soldier comes in, it doesn't matter if you have no-save arrest on, they will attempt to kill you because they cannot 'peacefully' end the combat and arrest you.

Yeah you could simply make it a no-save setting like arrest or run off arrest.  Also make it break combat completely so that it won't be subdue instant dead.

Just stop the combat.

There are plenty of ways to make it workable as a game and not make it exploitable by general players.
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



Tekky

  • Posts: 117
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2019, 04:29:27 PM »
We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

Is Friday

  • Posts: 6420
    • My Twitch Channel
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2019, 04:31:39 PM »
First of all, losing all your L33T gear to player or code is never an issue. No matter how many times it happens.

Realistically, it should be one. There are all sorts of measures the game doesn't allow that one could reasonably use to protect against theft.

1. You can't bar doors.

2. You can't get decent locks as a commoner.

3. You can't hire NPCs, either directly, or through communal contributions (e.g. part of rent from all renters going toward NPCs patrols).

4. You can't find a maxed-out thief hiding in a small empty room.

5. You can't set traps, not even simple alarm traps.

6. You can't hide things beneath floor boards or behind that loose brick or in a special hollow bed leg or  whatever.

It's no mystery that you don't find any really successful indie merchants. Everything is designed to keep you vulnerable. I believe this is part of a general philosophy that independents should not succeed (i.e. they should always be on the margins). Adding balanced-based (not flat) fees to Nenyuk was another example of this.
I feel like the game has entered a phase of punishing players instead of rewarding them in order to reinforce the setting. Players are playing in GMH less in a productive way because the GMH clan model has failed when compared to the indie merchant model in the last few years. Now that the indie model has done so well it is being punished.

So now both roles suck.
And then I sat there going "really? that was it? that's so stupid."

I still think the best closure you get in Armageddon is just moving on to the next character.

Namino

  • Posts: 296
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2019, 04:34:54 PM »
We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

Not to mention the sentiment only makes sense in a system is intuitive and the crim-code is notoriously bananas and schizophrenic half the time.

Quote
You attempt to grab a filthy grey rat, but it wrestles away.
A filthy grey rat bites at you, but you dodge out of the way.

129/129h 23/129m 120/120st| easily manageable | walking | unarmed | late afternoon Ocandra

A Kuraci regular shouts, in sirihish:
     "Bad move, fool!"
A Kuraci regular slashes a filthy grey rat on its body.
A Kuraci regular viciously stabs a filthy grey rat on its head.
A filthy grey rat reels from a Kuraci regular's blow.
A Kuraci regular shouts, in sirihish:
     "Bad move, fool!"
A Kuraci regular slashes a filthy grey rat on its hindleg.
A Kuraci regular stabs a filthy grey rat's tail, connecting hard.
A Kuraci regular shouts, in sirihish:
     "Bad move, fool!"
A Kuraci regular slashes a filthy grey rat on its body.
A Kuraci regular lightly stabs a filthy grey rat's hindleg.
A Kuraci regular shouts, in sirihish:
     "Bad move, fool!"
A Kuraci regular solidly slashes a filthy grey rat's foreleg.
A filthy grey rat crumples to the ground.
A Kuraci regular brutally stabs a filthy grey rat on its back.


129/129h 23/129m 120/120st| easily

B A D   M O V E   F O O L

Cerelum

  • Posts: 1975
Re: Crime Code - Player knowledge versus reality of code.
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2019, 04:35:28 PM »
We don't need a "how to" on this.  It may take a couple of characters, but it isn't that hard to figure out.

If there are issues you encounter, please use the request tool.

Hey Brokkr, I love ya. But this is a bit.. well. Uncharming thing to say? I have played over ten years, no real sneaky types. Are you really telling me to roll throw-aways and purposefully abuse code so I get an understanding of it? Then carry that OOC knowledge on? I mean, dude. You might as well have written "we do not need to explain this, because if you are dumb enough to ask then you are dumb enough to not know", I feel. It is not IC knowledge. It is an understanding of the setting, what might trigger a response from the militia and where. Etc.

Don't attack the staff, trust me I know how this ends, they will lock the thread, someone will get banned from posting.  And nothing ever gets learned.

Take it from a guy who was banned from the forums for YEARS.
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.