Author Topic: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*  (Read 3446 times)

Brokkr

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2019, 07:11:22 PM »
Because it would be confusing which race one would use it for?  I mean.  Elves might try to use it.  And everyone knows they aren't persons.

Lizzie

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2019, 07:26:16 PM »
Because it would be confusing which race one would use it for?  I mean.  Elves might try to use it.  And everyone knows they aren't persons.

Hoping the above is tongue-in-cheek. I've seen "male" and "female" used without argument in sdescs for humans, half-elves, and elves. No reason why "person" would be any more ambiguous.
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flurry

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2019, 08:00:43 PM »
Anyone want a fun trip down memory lane?

Here's the 2006 thread that resulted in that famous list of forbidden nouns: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,20020.0.html
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Krath

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2019, 08:08:28 PM »
Why not just use the race.

The short human
The short elf
The short half elf
The short dwarf
The short giant
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Cerelum

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2019, 08:19:43 PM »
Why not just use the race.

The short human
The short elf
The short half elf
The short dwarf
The short giant

I agree, I think this is a pick your battles type situation.

Not saying your desires for non genderer options are wrong or anything, but I would think thatís something that could be better portrayed in the description of the character than the sdesc.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 08:59:20 PM by Cerelum »
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Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2019, 08:47:59 PM »
Because it would be confusing which race one would use it for?  I mean.  Elves might try to use it.  And everyone knows they aren't persons.

Quote
Definitely okay to use in an sdesc:
adolescent, amputee, blond/blonde, brunette, female, half-breed, half-giant, humanoid, male, man, midget, redhead, teen, teenager, youth, woman

The above bolded words can be used by any race, human or otherwise, without racial qualification either. I've seen she-elves use 'woman' with no qualifier to hilarious tavern-RP effect.

There is really no argument against including person based on words already included, and it wouldn't even cost anything to implement. Really not understanding the resistance here. Unless we really just don't like making things easier for people.

Edit: sedecrupling down

valeria

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2019, 07:44:38 AM »
The fact you haven't been shot down yet is probably an indication it's being discussed staff-side.
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Grapes

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2019, 01:30:59 AM »
I've seen plenty of androgynous characters in the game, even if their sdesc hints, their full desc doesn't really give one indication or the other, which is fine. In sdescs if I feel the sex of the character in question wouldn't be readily discernable, I tend to stick to sdescs that just mention race, elf/human/half-elf/half-giant/dwarf etc.

That's not a whole lot to choose from, I know, but there's only so many ways you can say "woman" or "man" as well. We can't play kids so, that's out. Your PC is assumed to be an adult outside of chargen. There's still a lot of descriptive words to choose from to pair with the race as part of an sdesc. Anyone who goes on sdesc alone is either, a little lazy, or has just possibly read too many long descs with bountiful descriptions of flouncy hair and ginormous pectorals and lantern jaws, or something.

I know I get fatigued at times and just rely on the sdesc, bad as that may be. It can be a lot to take in at once when you've read so many in a short span, so you end up skimming a bit, and the sdesc mostly stands out in the mind.

Also, elves are better than persons, Brokkr. They are the unkillable tide of vermin that continues to rise despite the best efforts of the wealthy and powerful. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.
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maxid

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2019, 11:50:47 AM »
Looking over characters that have had "androgynous", most simply use a racial noun.  Secondary is some version of teen/youth/adolescent.

Amputee, humanoid and midget are on the list and not gendered.

Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

Not entirely in the theme of the thread, but midget should probably be taken off this list since many little people see it as a slur.

Cerelum

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2019, 12:28:05 PM »
Looking over characters that have had "androgynous", most simply use a racial noun.  Secondary is some version of teen/youth/adolescent.

Amputee, humanoid and midget are on the list and not gendered.

Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

Not entirely in the theme of the thread, but midget should probably be taken off this list since many little people see it as a slur.

Midget is there because dwarf is an actual race.

Canít be calling a super short human a dwarf to be PC.

Some stuff we just gotta deal with and not worry about offending folks.

My personal opinion.
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maxid

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2019, 12:52:31 PM »
Looking over characters that have had "androgynous", most simply use a racial noun.  Secondary is some version of teen/youth/adolescent.

Amputee, humanoid and midget are on the list and not gendered.

Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

Not entirely in the theme of the thread, but midget should probably be taken off this list since many little people see it as a slur.

Midget is there because dwarf is an actual race.

Canít be calling a super short human a dwarf to be PC.

Some stuff we just gotta deal with and not worry about offending folks.

My personal opinion.

Let's not derail this any more than a one off comment mentioning that this is a real world slur that should be avoided, hm?  You personally not being offended at the term isn't super relevant.  It does make it clear what sort of person you are, though.

Hauwke

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2019, 05:44:45 PM »
Looking over characters that have had "androgynous", most simply use a racial noun.  Secondary is some version of teen/youth/adolescent.

Amputee, humanoid and midget are on the list and not gendered.

Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

Not entirely in the theme of the thread, but midget should probably be taken off this list since many little people see it as a slur.

Midget is there because dwarf is an actual race.

Canít be calling a super short human a dwarf to be PC.

Some stuff we just gotta deal with and not worry about offending folks.

My personal opinion.

Let's not derail this any more than a one off comment mentioning that this is a real world slur that should be avoided, hm?  You personally not being offended at the term isn't super relevant.  It does make it clear what sort of person you are, though.

If you don't want an off topic discussion to start, don't start one.

Midget is a necessary word for us to have, What other word do we have that can readily bring the correct mental image to mind? I can't think of any besides 'very very short' and even that could just mean a 5'1" guy not a 3 foot guy.

maxid

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2019, 06:00:06 PM »
Real world slurs shouldn't be used, sorry.  That's my opinion and I feel pretty strongly about it.  It's on the level of rape Rp being triggering, which has already been banned from the game.

Nameless Face

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2019, 06:00:26 PM »
Why not little person?  I don't see why this particular little effort consideration is being resisted.

John

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2019, 06:27:39 PM »
Real world slurs shouldn't be used, sorry.  That's my opinion and I feel pretty strongly about it.  It's on the level of rape Rp being triggering, which has already been banned from the game.
I'll give you the removal of actual slurs if you give me the inclusion of fictional slurs. How's that?

Otherwise all elves are slant eyes.

Cerelum

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2019, 07:01:17 PM »
Real world slurs shouldn't be used, sorry.  That's my opinion and I feel pretty strongly about it.  It's on the level of rape Rp being triggering, which has already been banned from the game.

Then submit a request on the tool to have midget disallowed.  Then they can disallow it or tell you to grow thicker skin.  Posting youíre offended on the GDB doesnít help anything.
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triste

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2019, 08:21:14 PM »
I just want to say on the topic of disabilities/conditions that the situation may be ameliorated if sdescs such as "the ___ with ____" formatted better. I hear these don't work great with sdesc word replacement (such as for templars) and possessives. This topic has been fully derailed but generally nouns for disabled people are generally considered offensive such as "midget" or even more outdated terms like "pinhead": typically "someone with dwarfism" or "someone with microcephaly" is preferred nowadays. Back on the topic of gender the same applies AKA calling someone a "hermaphrodite" or "shemale" is offensive. Last note on this is some conditions such as cataracts don't even have an adjective so fixing the situation with "the ____ with ____" descs addresses this problem and will be a boone to everyone by offering more sdesc flexibility.

PS I personally am not offended by the use of the nouns discussed but yelling at the poster who is and telling them to grow a thick skin is crappy and non productive.
I don't have much time to play currently but will do my best to maintain https://tristearmageddon.github.io/arma-guild-picker/, message me if something there needs an update.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1960
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2019, 10:06:41 PM »
We are playing a game wherein we are allowed to cut people a new one 'just cos' but we can't have midgets? Seems like we should do away with all the offensive thing.

I propose we remove the ability to equip things because high strength offends me.

triste

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2019, 10:14:21 PM »
Again a contribution of "LOL PEOPLE WHO GET OFFENDED ARE SO WEAK" isn't really useful here. It does get to the point of how these decisions get made since it generally comes down to an ad hoc decision from staff if a subset of players complain. Once something is "banned" it never seems to get unbanned so in this case I agree the word should probably still be usable but uh, maybe let's not be assinine to other players with uninspired, weak, reddit style discourse like "ability to equip things because high strength offends me" or "grow a thick skin" and actually think about the issue at hand.

I don't like the extent to which topics and words are being banned in armageddon and I also don't like players feeling shitty when they see acceptance of slurs so maybe we need to let players vote on this stuff or something rather than subjecting staff to messy decisions.
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maxid

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2019, 10:14:59 PM »
I should've just sent in a request. 

We can't use disparaging slurs for any other group in our sdescs, it seems reasonable that we can't use this slur either.  It's a really simple thing to change, it adds nothing of value to allow it and we lose nothing by removing it.  We can't use tranny, dyke, the n-word, or many many many other real-world words that are offensive.  I don't see anything wrong with saying a term used to demean a group of people as circus sideshow attractions doesn't fit in this world as an sdesc.  As a person to say?  Much like other words, sure.  As an sdesc?  Which is intended as an objective description.

It's the last I'll say on the subject, next time I'll just send in a request.  It's obvious that some gdb neckbeard caricatures can't handle a polite conversation about things.

Alesan

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2019, 11:41:29 PM »
For someone who advocates against offensive nouns, you happily throw around neckbeard. Odd.

maxid

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2019, 11:46:54 PM »
For someone who advocates against offensive nouns, you happily throw around neckbeard. Odd.

edit: That was childish.

If you can't tell the difference between an actual slur and a name that pokes fun at an extremely online anti-pc person I don't know what to tell you.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 11:50:26 PM by maxid »

Cerelum

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2019, 12:05:20 AM »
I'm not sure why you've jumped on this Social Justice Warrior bandwagon just today.

But they literally have said Midget is acceptable in a few different posts you can search up.

I'm not saying it's nice to call people with Dwarfism Midgets in real life.  I wouldn't walk up to Peter Dinklage and be like "Yo, you're the midget from Game of Thrones!"

But in a game like this, where folks literally play to cut other people up with bone swords, or use magick to fry other peoples insides and a major point of the game is cruelty and such.  The concern over Political Correctness probably isn't the best thing to focus on.

If someone types OOC Yo, midget! Then file a player complaint.  Nobody is going to stop using approved words simply because you don't like it.
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maxid

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2019, 12:15:35 AM »
I said I'd stop, but I lied.

I mean, I've been a 'social justice warrior' (aka person who doesn't use slurs and tries not to be racist/homophobic/ableist/etc.) for a while now.

I was directly replying to the post where midget was listed as acceptable, and I used that post to mention that it's a slur.  This is not always super frequently known, but I have a family member with dwarfism and it's honestly a pretty shitty thing to say or have to hear.  I've seen them be pretty devastated by its casual use, especially when someone was asked not to say it. 

Arm has banned various things for being OOCly offensive or triggering, including rape.  I don't believe all that much is gained by having the word midget be acceptable in sdescs.  And as I said, if your character called someone a midget ICly? That's one thing.  If a person decides to oocly (sdescs are, after all, something of an ooc contrivance) define their character with a slur that's quite another.

I'm not policing your language.  I'm questioning whether it's ok to use in an sdesc, which should be more objective.  The game should be welcoming OOCly, even if its far from welcoming ICly.

Miradus

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2019, 01:05:59 AM »

I'll admit that I have, on multiple occasions, wanted to play a character impacted by dwarfism. I didn't ever do it, but I've had the concept a couple of times.

If the word 'midget' is offensive to you for personal reasons, okay. It doesn't bother me not to put it in the sdesc. I think whole decades have gone by without me using it in real life as well. Just doesn't come up that often.

But WHAT word would immediately convey in a sdesc that someone is impacted by dwarfism and not an actual dwarf? What word would be suitable? We've only got 35 characters to work with and I've had characters rejected before when I said 'black man' instead of 'dark-skinned man'.