Author Topic: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*  (Read 3442 times)

Vex

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Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« on: March 25, 2019, 01:55:00 AM »
***NOT OPEN TO RL CULTURE AND/OR POLITICAL COMMENTARY! KEEP THAT CRAP, OUT OF THIS THREAD! THIS IS 100% ABOUT CREATIVE WRITING, NOT PERSONAL VIEWS ON RL STUFF!***

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Androgynous

So, with the recent addition of this, been thinking about a concept, or two. Or three.

However, my issue is, as it usually is, with being completely unhappy with the SHORT description. That is, when making an androgynous human, I feel the "HUMAN" part to be visually unappealing. An elf or even dwarf, it would be no issue. But for human, I have a serious issue, because it doesn't look or read back in a way I appreciate.

I've looked at other, non-race options, such as "the wiry redhead", "the tall blonde" or "the skinny brunette", including their male-gendered counterparts (blond/brunet), but those, too, due to English, indicate gender in one direction or the other. There are few to no alternatives, that don't read as contrived, or trying far harder, than should be necessary. I don't care to delve into the black abyss, that is obscure, complicated words, that make people run to dictionary.com, because that is not, to me, any better, and tbh, I don't want to appear pretentious.

My additional concern, here, is that staff appear to have an extremely hard line on what can even be considered androgynous. It is, literally, non-gender, with no lean one way or the other. It must be an absolute, "what is this, I have no clue", kind of neutral, which makes leaning towards "blond" or "blonde", to show a degree of masculine or feminine features (regardless of actual "true" gender), a no-go. I won't even start on boobs. Guys can have boobs, too. My gym has TONS of guys, with A's through C's. I don't agree with this, but it is not my game, and as such, I must color within the lines.

How do you, person with similar character ideas, go about your short description? Do you just bite the unsavory bullet, and use human? How else can one go about it?



For serious, now, no political stuff. I mean it.

Edited, because I failed to link to a help file, in my own thread......
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 01:56:37 AM by Vex »
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Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2019, 02:04:41 AM »
The short, cock-eyed person?

The options are going to be limited, but replacing your gendered noun with person appears as neutral as you can be and doesn't read horribly to my eye.

Edit: if there are other distinctive characters about your character you can also use those.

The hulking, clown-painted brute.
The three armed, worn-looking waif.
Ect
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 02:08:08 AM by Namino »

cnemus

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2019, 02:32:03 AM »
I have personally tried and struggled with end-words for sdesc many times before.

The short, cock-eyed person?...
The hulking, clown-painted brute.
The three armed, worn-looking waif.

Brute, waif, individual, and person are on the NOT okay to use list (I have run into that before, too).

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Sdesc%20Words

I share your distaste for human, but it tends to be the safest option. As a side note, I consider blonde/blond to be more regional variant than gender, I have used blonde for males and blond for females and vice versa. Many of the hair-based examples don't sound gendered to me. I sadly don't have a constructive replacement, having yet to find a suitable one, but I will be actively watching this thread in hopes of some creative new ideas.
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Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2019, 02:38:11 AM »
I have personally tried and struggled with end-words for sdesc many times before.

The short, cock-eyed person?...
The hulking, clown-painted brute.
The three armed, worn-looking waif.

Brute, waif, individual, and person are on the NOT okay to use list (I have run into that before, too).

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Sdesc%20Words

I share your distaste for human, but it tends to be the safest option. As a side note, I consider blonde/blond to be more regional variant than gender, I have used blonde for males and blond for females and vice versa. Many of the hair-based examples don't sound gendered to me. I sadly don't have a constructive replacement, having yet to find a suitable one, but I will be actively watching this thread in hopes of some creative new ideas.

Given the sdesc policy probably was written back before androgyny was an option, the exclusion of non gender defining words, particularly person if nothing else, most likely ought to be reviewed.

If the npcs can be waifs and urchins, as an aside, I see no gross violation if people are permitted to have some actual variety in their description.

Cerelum

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2019, 08:23:05 AM »
As someone else said, the Sdesc thing was written FOREVER ago.  I would just toss together some non identifying Sdescs that make sense and submit the application.  If they have a problem with it, they will deny and tell you why.
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Brokkr

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2019, 12:16:52 PM »
Looking over characters that have had "androgynous", most simply use a racial noun.  Secondary is some version of teen/youth/adolescent.

Amputee, humanoid and midget are on the list and not gendered.

Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2019, 12:31:31 PM »
Looking over characters that have had "androgynous", most simply use a racial noun.  Secondary is some version of teen/youth/adolescent.

They may have used a racial noun for want of other options. Can we expand the list some in wake of these changes? Teen/youth/adolescent is fine but there should be an equivalent option for people no longer in the bonny springtime of their youth. Adding person and adult to the list will probably instantly solve this problem in my opinion, and cost nothing.

Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

As an aside, I am aware this was a joke but I think suggesting that a gender non-binary condition can be induced by the physical removal of secondary sexual characteristics might be significantly offensive to members of this community. I'm sure offense wasn't intended.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 12:33:06 PM by Namino »

cnemus

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2019, 01:00:31 PM »
Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

As an aside, I am aware this was a joke but I think suggesting that a gender non-binary condition can be induced by the physical removal of secondary sexual characteristics might be significantly offensive to members of this community. I'm sure offense wasn't intended.

I think this is being proffered as one possible route to lead to an androgynous situation and I have personally considered such. This is Zalanthas. Although we don't play it out, I definitely see complete face removal and extensive body alteration through torture as part of the setting and would 100% see it as a legitimate background.

While a naturally androgynous body type is one way to appear androgynous... not having hands, feet, a face, part of a chest... or more is another.
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Brokkr

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2019, 01:48:50 PM »
a gender non-binary condition

Probably not as much as following "non-binary" with "condition"? At the end of the day, as opposed to self-determination of gender orientation, which would correspond to using preferred pronouns in speech, the use of androgynous is about how your character appears to others, not about gender orientation or how you want others to interact with you based on that.

So...absolutely you can make someone androgynous with a knife.  The easiest would be to castrate someone young enough, but as someone else noted, mutilation could do it as well.

titansfan

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2019, 02:08:29 PM »
It was completely discussing in character options of a game anyways as OP said. I agree that physical mutilation could have a huge effect on androgyny and descriptions. I mean even some kind of mutation could warrant using a different pronoun, right?
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CodeMaster

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2019, 02:25:35 AM »
"being" (although that kind of suggests something supernatural), figure (conflates with hooded people but maybe that's okay).  Along with amputee you could use "hunchback", other objective things like "peg-leg" or "elder" (I know "youth" was mentioned) or "adult".

This is veering into the maybe/probably not territory. but you could mention other afflictions like, I don't know being a "sloughskin survivor" (there's a disease called blight, right?) or "plague victim" (what's the most visible disease?)

I like "person".  If you've got letters to spare you could use "individual".  There doesn't seem to be anything grammatically incorrect with using "one" (the stout, blue-eyed one), but it's a little awkard.

Even if your character isn't androgynous there's a lot of room for otherwise interesting sdescs in this discussion
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ShaLeah

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2019, 07:11:57 AM »
Maybe with the addition of androgynous beings staff can lift some of those bans on gender, size, race & age descriptors.

Too bad we can't use commoner or pleb(eian). I'd love to use rinther or breed or stormer which would work so well for the androgynous.

Oh well. A girl can dream.
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Lizzie

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2019, 10:06:29 AM »
Rinther and stormer wouldn't work. The moment the rinther learns a southern accent, takes a bath, and puts on a nice clean silk or linen outfit, she no longer bears any resemblance at all to a rinther. Same with Red Stormers, or Luirsian, or Northie.

They might each have genetic physical traits that are -common- to those areas, but none of them are -exclusive- to those areas.
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Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2019, 10:18:25 AM »
Doubling down on person, for the record.

Lizzie

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2019, 10:48:15 AM »
Androgyne is the actual noun used for a person whose gender is of ambiguous sexual identity. It's a little longer than man or woman, but that's what the word is.
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valeria

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2019, 02:18:07 PM »
I've never found blonde or brunette to imply a gender, despite their roots in a heavily gendered language. I've certainly seen "the blonde man" IG, and at least one "the blond woman." I have seen zero brunets. Human and figure are both things I have seen, as well as person, teen, and the racial defaults. Human isn't any worse than dwarf or elf.

I think there are enough options. I don't get why waif (homeless-looking youngster) is out, but hair style (also changeable) is in. That's just me, though. I don't get brute being out but brutal being in. And individual and person don't make sense on the word list at all.

I'm against beggar, orphan, rinther, or anything that couldn't be seen at a glance, though.
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Cerelum

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2019, 08:20:46 PM »
While I have no opinion one way or the other for inclusion of andro sdescs...

I do think that some of the options presented such as rinther, stormer and such would be a good way to describe someone based on their social class, I donít think pegging it down as a lifelong sdesc is a good idea.

The way the game works, you can start out poor as dirt and become someone over time, either through a clan or reputation.  So Amos the hunter might barely be able to make his water coin for a month and then start selling to Salarr and make a relative fortune for him and his friends, eventually get a warehouse and all that and become the next MMH.

If that guy has rinther as his description while heís wearing the best armor money can buy and able to kill a mekillot with a glance, thatís silly and unrealistic.

If you have an idea for some non normal sdesc, app it and if they deny it and you have a case for it, open up a respectful request about the merits of it, might still be denied, but they might also give suggestions you never thought of.

Just my two cents.
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Bushranger

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2019, 03:03:25 AM »
I've never found blonde or brunette to imply a gender, despite their roots in a heavily gendered language.
I've certainly seen "the blonde man" IG, and at least one "the blond woman."  I have seen zero brunets.

I think this is more to do with some people not knowing, or caring, about the grammatical difference between blonde and blond and who think that it is just a variant spelling such as colour and color.  We have all sorts of people playing the game including people who don't have English as their native language.

I think that blonde or blond can be used in the description of an androgynous character if one wishes but I agree with Vex that they would at least lean towards some feminine or masculine symbolism.  I don't like to advocate that blonde or blond should be used interchangeably for any gender or sex though and there are many synonyms that can be used if it is just the colour one wishes to denote.
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th3kaiser

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2019, 12:27:59 PM »
Whoa, blonde and blond are supposed to be for different sexes? The fuck? Also, I literally know nobody who does that. So weird. Use them how you want folks, that's some nonsense.

Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2019, 12:43:59 PM »
Whoa, blonde and blond are supposed to be for different sexes? The fuck? Also, I literally know nobody who does that. So weird. Use them how you want folks, that's some nonsense.

I think you'll find a larger than expected proportion of this particular population relishes in precise language and therefore knows and practices this difference. I've seen the correct usage of blond/blonde and (albeit less frequently) brunet/brunette in game on several occasions. When I see it used incorrectly I do tend to notice, as well, but it by no means jars me out of immersion or anything like that.

It's like their, they're, there. It isn't nonsense. It's just grammar.

Quadrupling down on person for the record.

th3kaiser

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2019, 01:14:20 PM »
I think it's also some wacky ass grammar rule they don't teach anyone. While I'm perfectly aware of how our community is, having been a part of it for 20 years, I'm really going to keep using blonde for absolutely everyone. I've always just assumed it was color/colour or gray/grey kind of thing. I certainly don't need to be adding in new unnecessary gender specific colors at this point in my life.

Also, this: The alternative spellings blonde and blond correspond to the feminine and masculine forms in French, but in English the distinction is not always made, as English does not have such distinctions of grammatical gender. ... The word is more commonly used of women, though, and in the noun the spelling is typically blonde.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 01:18:34 PM by th3kaiser »

valeria

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2019, 01:20:57 PM »
My point isn't that blonde/blond aren't gendered when used properly. My point is that if I come across "the muscular blonde" in game I'm not going to think "clearly a woman" because I've seen so many blonde men that it's effectively meaningless. And I would have no personal issue making am androgynous blonde. Your mileage may differ.
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Vex

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2019, 03:00:20 PM »
If there are staff reading, do staff have preferences? Things you feel are acceptable, and especially, things that you feel are NOT acceptable?

I feel as if the "do/don't use" file may need an update (I have, certainly, seen several of those don't words used in game) and if possible, a collaboration on acceptable, or encouraged, terms for androgyny?

I do appreciate the discussion, and further, I appreciate it has avoided the trap of becoming derailed by politics, as many such discussions do.
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Brokkr

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2019, 04:12:05 PM »
Whoa, blonde and blond are supposed to be for different sexes? The fuck? Also, I literally know nobody who does that. So weird. Use them how you want folks, that's some nonsense.

I think you'll find a larger than expected proportion of this particular population relishes in precise language and therefore knows and practices this difference. I've seen the correct usage of blond/blonde and (albeit less frequently) brunet/brunette in game on several occasions. When I see it used incorrectly I do tend to notice, as well, but it by no means jars me out of immersion or anything like that.

It's like their, they're, there. It isn't nonsense. It's just grammar.

Quadrupling down on person for the record.

Except that it is incorrect to say that it is grammar, really.  Blond/Blonde fall into a category of words that are regionally variant.  Given that they are used, correctly, differently in different regions, there is no overall grammar rule for them.

Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2019, 04:34:26 PM »
Hair color and opinions concerning it notwithstanding, Brokkr, is there any logical or thematic reason to continue to disallow the word person from sdescs given new gender policies? I haven't heard any convincing arguments against that insofar.

(This is me octrupling down if anyone is keeping score).