Author Topic: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*  (Read 1787 times)

Vex

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Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« on: March 25, 2019, 01:55:00 AM »
***NOT OPEN TO RL CULTURE AND/OR POLITICAL COMMENTARY! KEEP THAT CRAP, OUT OF THIS THREAD! THIS IS 100% ABOUT CREATIVE WRITING, NOT PERSONAL VIEWS ON RL STUFF!***

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Androgynous

So, with the recent addition of this, been thinking about a concept, or two. Or three.

However, my issue is, as it usually is, with being completely unhappy with the SHORT description. That is, when making an androgynous human, I feel the "HUMAN" part to be visually unappealing. An elf or even dwarf, it would be no issue. But for human, I have a serious issue, because it doesn't look or read back in a way I appreciate.

I've looked at other, non-race options, such as "the wiry redhead", "the tall blonde" or "the skinny brunette", including their male-gendered counterparts (blond/brunet), but those, too, due to English, indicate gender in one direction or the other. There are few to no alternatives, that don't read as contrived, or trying far harder, than should be necessary. I don't care to delve into the black abyss, that is obscure, complicated words, that make people run to dictionary.com, because that is not, to me, any better, and tbh, I don't want to appear pretentious.

My additional concern, here, is that staff appear to have an extremely hard line on what can even be considered androgynous. It is, literally, non-gender, with no lean one way or the other. It must be an absolute, "what is this, I have no clue", kind of neutral, which makes leaning towards "blond" or "blonde", to show a degree of masculine or feminine features (regardless of actual "true" gender), a no-go. I won't even start on boobs. Guys can have boobs, too. My gym has TONS of guys, with A's through C's. I don't agree with this, but it is not my game, and as such, I must color within the lines.

How do you, person with similar character ideas, go about your short description? Do you just bite the unsavory bullet, and use human? How else can one go about it?



For serious, now, no political stuff. I mean it.

Edited, because I failed to link to a help file, in my own thread......
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 01:56:37 AM by Vex »
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Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2019, 02:04:41 AM »
The short, cock-eyed person?

The options are going to be limited, but replacing your gendered noun with person appears as neutral as you can be and doesn't read horribly to my eye.

Edit: if there are other distinctive characters about your character you can also use those.

The hulking, clown-painted brute.
The three armed, worn-looking waif.
Ect
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 02:08:08 AM by Namino »

cnemus

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2019, 02:32:03 AM »
I have personally tried and struggled with end-words for sdesc many times before.

The short, cock-eyed person?...
The hulking, clown-painted brute.
The three armed, worn-looking waif.

Brute, waif, individual, and person are on the NOT okay to use list (I have run into that before, too).

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Sdesc%20Words

I share your distaste for human, but it tends to be the safest option. As a side note, I consider blonde/blond to be more regional variant than gender, I have used blonde for males and blond for females and vice versa. Many of the hair-based examples don't sound gendered to me. I sadly don't have a constructive replacement, having yet to find a suitable one, but I will be actively watching this thread in hopes of some creative new ideas.
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Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2019, 02:38:11 AM »
I have personally tried and struggled with end-words for sdesc many times before.

The short, cock-eyed person?...
The hulking, clown-painted brute.
The three armed, worn-looking waif.

Brute, waif, individual, and person are on the NOT okay to use list (I have run into that before, too).

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Sdesc%20Words

I share your distaste for human, but it tends to be the safest option. As a side note, I consider blonde/blond to be more regional variant than gender, I have used blonde for males and blond for females and vice versa. Many of the hair-based examples don't sound gendered to me. I sadly don't have a constructive replacement, having yet to find a suitable one, but I will be actively watching this thread in hopes of some creative new ideas.

Given the sdesc policy probably was written back before androgyny was an option, the exclusion of non gender defining words, particularly person if nothing else, most likely ought to be reviewed.

If the npcs can be waifs and urchins, as an aside, I see no gross violation if people are permitted to have some actual variety in their description.

Cerelum

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2019, 08:23:05 AM »
As someone else said, the Sdesc thing was written FOREVER ago.  I would just toss together some non identifying Sdescs that make sense and submit the application.  If they have a problem with it, they will deny and tell you why.
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Brokkr

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2019, 12:16:52 PM »
Looking over characters that have had "androgynous", most simply use a racial noun.  Secondary is some version of teen/youth/adolescent.

Amputee, humanoid and midget are on the list and not gendered.

Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2019, 12:31:31 PM »
Looking over characters that have had "androgynous", most simply use a racial noun.  Secondary is some version of teen/youth/adolescent.

They may have used a racial noun for want of other options. Can we expand the list some in wake of these changes? Teen/youth/adolescent is fine but there should be an equivalent option for people no longer in the bonny springtime of their youth. Adding person and adult to the list will probably instantly solve this problem in my opinion, and cost nothing.

Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

As an aside, I am aware this was a joke but I think suggesting that a gender non-binary condition can be induced by the physical removal of secondary sexual characteristics might be significantly offensive to members of this community. I'm sure offense wasn't intended.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 12:33:06 PM by Namino »

cnemus

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2019, 01:00:31 PM »
Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

As an aside, I am aware this was a joke but I think suggesting that a gender non-binary condition can be induced by the physical removal of secondary sexual characteristics might be significantly offensive to members of this community. I'm sure offense wasn't intended.

I think this is being proffered as one possible route to lead to an androgynous situation and I have personally considered such. This is Zalanthas. Although we don't play it out, I definitely see complete face removal and extensive body alteration through torture as part of the setting and would 100% see it as a legitimate background.

While a naturally androgynous body type is one way to appear androgynous... not having hands, feet, a face, part of a chest... or more is another.
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Brokkr

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2019, 01:48:50 PM »
a gender non-binary condition

Probably not as much as following "non-binary" with "condition"? At the end of the day, as opposed to self-determination of gender orientation, which would correspond to using preferred pronouns in speech, the use of androgynous is about how your character appears to others, not about gender orientation or how you want others to interact with you based on that.

So...absolutely you can make someone androgynous with a knife.  The easiest would be to castrate someone young enough, but as someone else noted, mutilation could do it as well.

titansfan

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2019, 02:08:29 PM »
It was completely discussing in character options of a game anyways as OP said. I agree that physical mutilation could have a huge effect on androgyny and descriptions. I mean even some kind of mutation could warrant using a different pronoun, right?
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CodeMaster

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2019, 02:25:35 AM »
"being" (although that kind of suggests something supernatural), figure (conflates with hooded people but maybe that's okay).  Along with amputee you could use "hunchback", other objective things like "peg-leg" or "elder" (I know "youth" was mentioned) or "adult".

This is veering into the maybe/probably not territory. but you could mention other afflictions like, I don't know being a "sloughskin survivor" (there's a disease called blight, right?) or "plague victim" (what's the most visible disease?)

I like "person".  If you've got letters to spare you could use "individual".  There doesn't seem to be anything grammatically incorrect with using "one" (the stout, blue-eyed one), but it's a little awkard.

Even if your character isn't androgynous there's a lot of room for otherwise interesting sdescs in this discussion
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ShaLeah

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2019, 07:11:57 AM »
Maybe with the addition of androgynous beings staff can lift some of those bans on gender, size, race & age descriptors.

Too bad we can't use commoner or pleb(eian). I'd love to use rinther or breed or stormer which would work so well for the androgynous.

Oh well. A girl can dream.
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Lizzie

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2019, 10:06:29 AM »
Rinther and stormer wouldn't work. The moment the rinther learns a southern accent, takes a bath, and puts on a nice clean silk or linen outfit, she no longer bears any resemblance at all to a rinther. Same with Red Stormers, or Luirsian, or Northie.

They might each have genetic physical traits that are -common- to those areas, but none of them are -exclusive- to those areas.
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Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2019, 10:18:25 AM »
Doubling down on person, for the record.

Lizzie

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2019, 10:48:15 AM »
Androgyne is the actual noun used for a person whose gender is of ambiguous sexual identity. It's a little longer than man or woman, but that's what the word is.
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valeria

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2019, 02:18:07 PM »
I've never found blonde or brunette to imply a gender, despite their roots in a heavily gendered language. I've certainly seen "the blonde man" IG, and at least one "the blond woman." I have seen zero brunets. Human and figure are both things I have seen, as well as person, teen, and the racial defaults. Human isn't any worse than dwarf or elf.

I think there are enough options. I don't get why waif (homeless-looking youngster) is out, but hair style (also changeable) is in. That's just me, though. I don't get brute being out but brutal being in. And individual and person don't make sense on the word list at all.

I'm against beggar, orphan, rinther, or anything that couldn't be seen at a glance, though.
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Cerelum

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2019, 08:20:46 PM »
While I have no opinion one way or the other for inclusion of andro sdescs...

I do think that some of the options presented such as rinther, stormer and such would be a good way to describe someone based on their social class, I donít think pegging it down as a lifelong sdesc is a good idea.

The way the game works, you can start out poor as dirt and become someone over time, either through a clan or reputation.  So Amos the hunter might barely be able to make his water coin for a month and then start selling to Salarr and make a relative fortune for him and his friends, eventually get a warehouse and all that and become the next MMH.

If that guy has rinther as his description while heís wearing the best armor money can buy and able to kill a mekillot with a glance, thatís silly and unrealistic.

If you have an idea for some non normal sdesc, app it and if they deny it and you have a case for it, open up a respectful request about the merits of it, might still be denied, but they might also give suggestions you never thought of.

Just my two cents.
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Bushranger

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2019, 03:03:25 AM »
I've never found blonde or brunette to imply a gender, despite their roots in a heavily gendered language.
I've certainly seen "the blonde man" IG, and at least one "the blond woman."  I have seen zero brunets.

I think this is more to do with some people not knowing, or caring, about the grammatical difference between blonde and blond and who think that it is just a variant spelling such as colour and color.  We have all sorts of people playing the game including people who don't have English as their native language.

I think that blonde or blond can be used in the description of an androgynous character if one wishes but I agree with Vex that they would at least lean towards some feminine or masculine symbolism.  I don't like to advocate that blonde or blond should be used interchangeably for any gender or sex though and there are many synonyms that can be used if it is just the colour one wishes to denote.
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th3kaiser

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2019, 12:27:59 PM »
Whoa, blonde and blond are supposed to be for different sexes? The fuck? Also, I literally know nobody who does that. So weird. Use them how you want folks, that's some nonsense.

Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2019, 12:43:59 PM »
Whoa, blonde and blond are supposed to be for different sexes? The fuck? Also, I literally know nobody who does that. So weird. Use them how you want folks, that's some nonsense.

I think you'll find a larger than expected proportion of this particular population relishes in precise language and therefore knows and practices this difference. I've seen the correct usage of blond/blonde and (albeit less frequently) brunet/brunette in game on several occasions. When I see it used incorrectly I do tend to notice, as well, but it by no means jars me out of immersion or anything like that.

It's like their, they're, there. It isn't nonsense. It's just grammar.

Quadrupling down on person for the record.

th3kaiser

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2019, 01:14:20 PM »
I think it's also some wacky ass grammar rule they don't teach anyone. While I'm perfectly aware of how our community is, having been a part of it for 20 years, I'm really going to keep using blonde for absolutely everyone. I've always just assumed it was color/colour or gray/grey kind of thing. I certainly don't need to be adding in new unnecessary gender specific colors at this point in my life.

Also, this: The alternative spellings blonde and blond correspond to the feminine and masculine forms in French, but in English the distinction is not always made, as English does not have such distinctions of grammatical gender. ... The word is more commonly used of women, though, and in the noun the spelling is typically blonde.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 01:18:34 PM by th3kaiser »

valeria

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2019, 01:20:57 PM »
My point isn't that blonde/blond aren't gendered when used properly. My point is that if I come across "the muscular blonde" in game I'm not going to think "clearly a woman" because I've seen so many blonde men that it's effectively meaningless. And I would have no personal issue making am androgynous blonde. Your mileage may differ.
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Vex

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2019, 03:00:20 PM »
If there are staff reading, do staff have preferences? Things you feel are acceptable, and especially, things that you feel are NOT acceptable?

I feel as if the "do/don't use" file may need an update (I have, certainly, seen several of those don't words used in game) and if possible, a collaboration on acceptable, or encouraged, terms for androgyny?

I do appreciate the discussion, and further, I appreciate it has avoided the trap of becoming derailed by politics, as many such discussions do.
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Brokkr

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2019, 04:12:05 PM »
Whoa, blonde and blond are supposed to be for different sexes? The fuck? Also, I literally know nobody who does that. So weird. Use them how you want folks, that's some nonsense.

I think you'll find a larger than expected proportion of this particular population relishes in precise language and therefore knows and practices this difference. I've seen the correct usage of blond/blonde and (albeit less frequently) brunet/brunette in game on several occasions. When I see it used incorrectly I do tend to notice, as well, but it by no means jars me out of immersion or anything like that.

It's like their, they're, there. It isn't nonsense. It's just grammar.

Quadrupling down on person for the record.

Except that it is incorrect to say that it is grammar, really.  Blond/Blonde fall into a category of words that are regionally variant.  Given that they are used, correctly, differently in different regions, there is no overall grammar rule for them.

Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2019, 04:34:26 PM »
Hair color and opinions concerning it notwithstanding, Brokkr, is there any logical or thematic reason to continue to disallow the word person from sdescs given new gender policies? I haven't heard any convincing arguments against that insofar.

(This is me octrupling down if anyone is keeping score).

Brokkr

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2019, 07:11:22 PM »
Because it would be confusing which race one would use it for?  I mean.  Elves might try to use it.  And everyone knows they aren't persons.

Lizzie

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2019, 07:26:16 PM »
Because it would be confusing which race one would use it for?  I mean.  Elves might try to use it.  And everyone knows they aren't persons.

Hoping the above is tongue-in-cheek. I've seen "male" and "female" used without argument in sdescs for humans, half-elves, and elves. No reason why "person" would be any more ambiguous.
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flurry

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2019, 08:00:43 PM »
Anyone want a fun trip down memory lane?

Here's the 2006 thread that resulted in that famous list of forbidden nouns: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,20020.0.html
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Krath

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2019, 08:08:28 PM »
Why not just use the race.

The short human
The short elf
The short half elf
The short dwarf
The short giant
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Cerelum

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2019, 08:19:43 PM »
Why not just use the race.

The short human
The short elf
The short half elf
The short dwarf
The short giant

I agree, I think this is a pick your battles type situation.

Not saying your desires for non genderer options are wrong or anything, but I would think thatís something that could be better portrayed in the description of the character than the sdesc.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 08:59:20 PM by Cerelum »
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Namino

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2019, 08:47:59 PM »
Because it would be confusing which race one would use it for?  I mean.  Elves might try to use it.  And everyone knows they aren't persons.

Quote
Definitely okay to use in an sdesc:
adolescent, amputee, blond/blonde, brunette, female, half-breed, half-giant, humanoid, male, man, midget, redhead, teen, teenager, youth, woman

The above bolded words can be used by any race, human or otherwise, without racial qualification either. I've seen she-elves use 'woman' with no qualifier to hilarious tavern-RP effect.

There is really no argument against including person based on words already included, and it wouldn't even cost anything to implement. Really not understanding the resistance here. Unless we really just don't like making things easier for people.

Edit: sedecrupling down

valeria

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2019, 07:44:38 AM »
The fact you haven't been shot down yet is probably an indication it's being discussed staff-side.
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Grapes

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2019, 01:30:59 AM »
I've seen plenty of androgynous characters in the game, even if their sdesc hints, their full desc doesn't really give one indication or the other, which is fine. In sdescs if I feel the sex of the character in question wouldn't be readily discernable, I tend to stick to sdescs that just mention race, elf/human/half-elf/half-giant/dwarf etc.

That's not a whole lot to choose from, I know, but there's only so many ways you can say "woman" or "man" as well. We can't play kids so, that's out. Your PC is assumed to be an adult outside of chargen. There's still a lot of descriptive words to choose from to pair with the race as part of an sdesc. Anyone who goes on sdesc alone is either, a little lazy, or has just possibly read too many long descs with bountiful descriptions of flouncy hair and ginormous pectorals and lantern jaws, or something.

I know I get fatigued at times and just rely on the sdesc, bad as that may be. It can be a lot to take in at once when you've read so many in a short span, so you end up skimming a bit, and the sdesc mostly stands out in the mind.

Also, elves are better than persons, Brokkr. They are the unkillable tide of vermin that continues to rise despite the best efforts of the wealthy and powerful. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.
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maxid

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2019, 11:50:47 AM »
Looking over characters that have had "androgynous", most simply use a racial noun.  Secondary is some version of teen/youth/adolescent.

Amputee, humanoid and midget are on the list and not gendered.

Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

Not entirely in the theme of the thread, but midget should probably be taken off this list since many little people see it as a slur.

Cerelum

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2019, 12:28:05 PM »
Looking over characters that have had "androgynous", most simply use a racial noun.  Secondary is some version of teen/youth/adolescent.

Amputee, humanoid and midget are on the list and not gendered.

Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

Not entirely in the theme of the thread, but midget should probably be taken off this list since many little people see it as a slur.

Midget is there because dwarf is an actual race.

Canít be calling a super short human a dwarf to be PC.

Some stuff we just gotta deal with and not worry about offending folks.

My personal opinion.
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maxid

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2019, 12:52:31 PM »
Looking over characters that have had "androgynous", most simply use a racial noun.  Secondary is some version of teen/youth/adolescent.

Amputee, humanoid and midget are on the list and not gendered.

Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

Not entirely in the theme of the thread, but midget should probably be taken off this list since many little people see it as a slur.

Midget is there because dwarf is an actual race.

Canít be calling a super short human a dwarf to be PC.

Some stuff we just gotta deal with and not worry about offending folks.

My personal opinion.

Let's not derail this any more than a one off comment mentioning that this is a real world slur that should be avoided, hm?  You personally not being offended at the term isn't super relevant.  It does make it clear what sort of person you are, though.

Hauwke

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Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2019, 05:44:45 PM »
Looking over characters that have had "androgynous", most simply use a racial noun.  Secondary is some version of teen/youth/adolescent.

Amputee, humanoid and midget are on the list and not gendered.

Can I root for the amputee that has had all their gendered pieces literally cut away?

Not entirely in the theme of the thread, but midget should probably be taken off this list since many little people see it as a slur.

Midget is there because dwarf is an actual race.

Canít be calling a super short human a dwarf to be PC.

Some stuff we just gotta deal with and not worry about offending folks.

My personal opinion.

Let's not derail this any more than a one off comment mentioning that this is a real world slur that should be avoided, hm?  You personally not being offended at the term isn't super relevant.  It does make it clear what sort of person you are, though.

If you don't want an off topic discussion to start, don't start one.

Midget is a necessary word for us to have, What other word do we have that can readily bring the correct mental image to mind? I can't think of any besides 'very very short' and even that could just mean a 5'1" guy not a 3 foot guy.

maxid

  • Posts: 715
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2019, 06:00:06 PM »
Real world slurs shouldn't be used, sorry.  That's my opinion and I feel pretty strongly about it.  It's on the level of rape Rp being triggering, which has already been banned from the game.

Nameless Face

  • Posts: 400
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2019, 06:00:26 PM »
Why not little person?  I don't see why this particular little effort consideration is being resisted.

John

  • Posts: 4207
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2019, 06:27:39 PM »
Real world slurs shouldn't be used, sorry.  That's my opinion and I feel pretty strongly about it.  It's on the level of rape Rp being triggering, which has already been banned from the game.
I'll give you the removal of actual slurs if you give me the inclusion of fictional slurs. How's that?

Otherwise all elves are slant eyes.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2174
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2019, 07:01:17 PM »
Real world slurs shouldn't be used, sorry.  That's my opinion and I feel pretty strongly about it.  It's on the level of rape Rp being triggering, which has already been banned from the game.

Then submit a request on the tool to have midget disallowed.  Then they can disallow it or tell you to grow thicker skin.  Posting youíre offended on the GDB doesnít help anything.
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



triste

  • Posts: 38
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2019, 08:21:14 PM »
I just want to say on the topic of disabilities/conditions that the situation may be ameliorated if sdescs such as "the ___ with ____" formatted better. I hear these don't work great with sdesc word replacement (such as for templars) and possessives. This topic has been fully derailed but generally nouns for disabled people are generally considered offensive such as "midget" or even more outdated terms like "pinhead": typically "someone with dwarfism" or "someone with microcephaly" is preferred nowadays. Back on the topic of gender the same applies AKA calling someone a "hermaphrodite" or "shemale" is offensive. Last note on this is some conditions such as cataracts don't even have an adjective so fixing the situation with "the ____ with ____" descs addresses this problem and will be a boone to everyone by offering more sdesc flexibility.

PS I personally am not offended by the use of the nouns discussed but yelling at the poster who is and telling them to grow a thick skin is crappy and non productive.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1796
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2019, 10:06:41 PM »
We are playing a game wherein we are allowed to cut people a new one 'just cos' but we can't have midgets? Seems like we should do away with all the offensive thing.

I propose we remove the ability to equip things because high strength offends me.

triste

  • Posts: 38
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2019, 10:14:21 PM »
Again a contribution of "LOL PEOPLE WHO GET OFFENDED ARE SO WEAK" isn't really useful here. It does get to the point of how these decisions get made since it generally comes down to an ad hoc decision from staff if a subset of players complain. Once something is "banned" it never seems to get unbanned so in this case I agree the word should probably still be usable but uh, maybe let's not be assinine to other players with uninspired, weak, reddit style discourse like "ability to equip things because high strength offends me" or "grow a thick skin" and actually think about the issue at hand.

I don't like the extent to which topics and words are being banned in armageddon and I also don't like players feeling shitty when they see acceptance of slurs so maybe we need to let players vote on this stuff or something rather than subjecting staff to messy decisions.

maxid

  • Posts: 715
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2019, 10:14:59 PM »
I should've just sent in a request. 

We can't use disparaging slurs for any other group in our sdescs, it seems reasonable that we can't use this slur either.  It's a really simple thing to change, it adds nothing of value to allow it and we lose nothing by removing it.  We can't use tranny, dyke, the n-word, or many many many other real-world words that are offensive.  I don't see anything wrong with saying a term used to demean a group of people as circus sideshow attractions doesn't fit in this world as an sdesc.  As a person to say?  Much like other words, sure.  As an sdesc?  Which is intended as an objective description.

It's the last I'll say on the subject, next time I'll just send in a request.  It's obvious that some gdb neckbeard caricatures can't handle a polite conversation about things.

Alesan

  • Posts: 307
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2019, 11:41:29 PM »
For someone who advocates against offensive nouns, you happily throw around neckbeard. Odd.

maxid

  • Posts: 715
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2019, 11:46:54 PM »
For someone who advocates against offensive nouns, you happily throw around neckbeard. Odd.

edit: That was childish.

If you can't tell the difference between an actual slur and a name that pokes fun at an extremely online anti-pc person I don't know what to tell you.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 11:50:26 PM by maxid »

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2174
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2019, 12:05:20 AM »
I'm not sure why you've jumped on this Social Justice Warrior bandwagon just today.

But they literally have said Midget is acceptable in a few different posts you can search up.

I'm not saying it's nice to call people with Dwarfism Midgets in real life.  I wouldn't walk up to Peter Dinklage and be like "Yo, you're the midget from Game of Thrones!"

But in a game like this, where folks literally play to cut other people up with bone swords, or use magick to fry other peoples insides and a major point of the game is cruelty and such.  The concern over Political Correctness probably isn't the best thing to focus on.

If someone types OOC Yo, midget! Then file a player complaint.  Nobody is going to stop using approved words simply because you don't like it.
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



maxid

  • Posts: 715
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2019, 12:15:35 AM »
I said I'd stop, but I lied.

I mean, I've been a 'social justice warrior' (aka person who doesn't use slurs and tries not to be racist/homophobic/ableist/etc.) for a while now.

I was directly replying to the post where midget was listed as acceptable, and I used that post to mention that it's a slur.  This is not always super frequently known, but I have a family member with dwarfism and it's honestly a pretty shitty thing to say or have to hear.  I've seen them be pretty devastated by its casual use, especially when someone was asked not to say it. 

Arm has banned various things for being OOCly offensive or triggering, including rape.  I don't believe all that much is gained by having the word midget be acceptable in sdescs.  And as I said, if your character called someone a midget ICly? That's one thing.  If a person decides to oocly (sdescs are, after all, something of an ooc contrivance) define their character with a slur that's quite another.

I'm not policing your language.  I'm questioning whether it's ok to use in an sdesc, which should be more objective.  The game should be welcoming OOCly, even if its far from welcoming ICly.

Miradus

  • Posts: 2242
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2019, 01:05:59 AM »

I'll admit that I have, on multiple occasions, wanted to play a character impacted by dwarfism. I didn't ever do it, but I've had the concept a couple of times.

If the word 'midget' is offensive to you for personal reasons, okay. It doesn't bother me not to put it in the sdesc. I think whole decades have gone by without me using it in real life as well. Just doesn't come up that often.

But WHAT word would immediately convey in a sdesc that someone is impacted by dwarfism and not an actual dwarf? What word would be suitable? We've only got 35 characters to work with and I've had characters rejected before when I said 'black man' instead of 'dark-skinned man'.


maxid

  • Posts: 715
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2019, 01:15:01 AM »
The blue-eyed little person.

The grey-haired, very short man.

etc.

Does the height/weight actually allow for people under 4'11"? I'm not actually sure.  But either way, there are numerous ways to say it.

And it's not just personal reasons.  Although I do have a personal gripe with it, it also is legitimately a slur.

Cerelum

  • Posts: 2174
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2019, 01:19:53 AM »
The blue-eyed little person.

The grey-haired, very short man.

etc.

Does the height/weight actually allow for people under 4'11"? I'm not actually sure.  But either way, there are numerous ways to say it.

And it's not just personal reasons.  Although I do have a personal gripe with it, it also is legitimately a slur.

I think anything outside of Standard height and weight for the race is considered a mutation.

So I think youíd have to actually special app to play as a legitimate midget character if I understand it right.  Otherwise youíre just a short person described as a midget versus the actual meaning of it.
Quote from: brytta.leofa
Yeah, seriously...find out OOC.



Alesan

  • Posts: 307
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2019, 10:25:17 AM »
For someone who advocates against offensive nouns, you happily throw around neckbeard. Odd.

edit: That was childish.

If you can't tell the difference between an actual slur and a name that pokes fun at an extremely online anti-pc person I don't know what to tell you.

I can tell the difference. I was just noting how childish that was. And apparently you're still being childish to some random person popping into the thread to comment on it. But at least you're self aware, thank you for that.

valeria

  • Posts: 5855
    • I have a writing page.
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2019, 11:49:51 AM »
Saying that something isn't a slur doesn't make it less of a slur. Plenty of little people have publically spoken out about the use of this specific, disparaging carnival freak show term as a slur (Danny Woodburn, Eugene Grant, Little People of America). It doesn't make you a bad person that you've used it without realizing it's a slur, but it isn't someone being "personally offended" when they point out that it's a slur.

You're welcome to use it to your heart's content, even if you want to do so now that you know it's a slur. I'm not the language and morals police. But it shouldn't be an sdesc term.
Too gay to function since the early 2000s.
I do writing.

Namino

  • Posts: 404
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2019, 12:32:21 PM »
No dog in the fight, couldn't care less.

It is important to note that words have contextual severity. Cunt in Australia is a lot less severe than in America. If we can have such a gulf of severity across our planet, imagine the variation between Zalanthas and here. A word being a slur on Earth does not make it a slur on Zalanthas, much like a fannypack in Britian is a hilarious concept.

The question then boils down to how much we as a playerbase respect the independence of Zalanthas as it's own culture with it's own language conventions. If you think the characters have preeminence, midget is fine and it's up to IC attitudes to decide. If you think players are more important than characters, then player convention dictates language and midget should go in keeping with OOC convention.

Either way, saying people who support either side are bigoted or closed minded fails to capture the true essence of the argument, which is player vs character emphasis of language.

maxid

  • Posts: 715
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2019, 12:52:29 PM »
The question is not the IC use of the word midget, which I've repeatedly stated I understand as allowable within Zalanthas.

The question is whether its appropriate for an sdesc.   I don't believe slurs belong in sdescs even if I'm mostly fine with them being said by a character.

People seem to struggle to separate IC and OOC at times.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9761
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2019, 01:07:35 PM »
What's the alternative to using midget that doesn't completely jam up the rest of your sdesc with extra characters?
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

maxid

  • Posts: 715
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2019, 01:49:44 PM »
Short.  Diminutive. Minute.

They have the added benefit of not being actual slurs.

Namino

  • Posts: 404
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2019, 01:53:46 PM »
The question is not the IC use of the word midget, which I've repeatedly stated I understand as allowable within Zalanthas.

The question is whether its appropriate for an sdesc.   I don't believe slurs belong in sdescs even if I'm mostly fine with them being said by a character.

People seem to struggle to separate IC and OOC at times.

The debate then still is where player language and character language ends. You argue from the perspective that says tells and psis are character language, but sdescs and ldescs are player language. That's valid.

There are people who feel like their sdesc and ldescs are also under the purview of in character language. I don't think these people are bigots because they consider sdescs to be incharacter the same as says. There's actually quite a bit of staff input that sdescs require in character language, to be honest. You can be kalan-eyed. You cannot be mahogany skinned.

valeria

  • Posts: 5855
    • I have a writing page.
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2019, 01:58:17 PM »
What's the alternative to using midget that doesn't completely jam up the rest of your sdesc with extra characters?

The blue-eyed little person.

The grey-haired, very short man.

The extra-characters arguement doesn't hold a lot of water with me when plenty of characters have to use more characters for less compelling reasons than the word being a slur. E.g. "female half-giant" because "half-giantess" is on the disallowed sdesc word list because ???. Same with female dwarves, female elves, etc. And the amount of extra characters is not huge.
Too gay to function since the early 2000s.
I do writing.

maxid

  • Posts: 715
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2019, 02:18:27 PM »
The question is not the IC use of the word midget, which I've repeatedly stated I understand as allowable within Zalanthas.

The question is whether its appropriate for an sdesc.   I don't believe slurs belong in sdescs even if I'm mostly fine with them being said by a character.

People seem to struggle to separate IC and OOC at times.

The debate then still is where player language and character language ends. You argue from the perspective that says tells and psis are character language, but sdescs and ldescs are player language. That's valid.

There are people who feel like their sdesc and ldescs are also under the purview of in character language. I don't think these people are bigots because they consider sdescs to be incharacter the same as says. There's actually quite a bit of staff input that sdescs require in character language, to be honest. You can be kalan-eyed. You cannot be mahogany skinned.

You certainly can be mahogany skinned, I've seen it variously.  Descs and sdescs are there for the player.  Things actually said by characters are IC.  Things written to describe are a quasi-OOC/IC, leaning more toward OOC.

I don't know why you feel the need to defend you and others' use of slurs, but it's been pretty eye opening to see how rabidly people have been posting about this.  People love their words that make others feel shitty, especially when they have no horse in the race except being very mildly inconvenienced.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9761
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2019, 02:31:50 PM »
I don't feel like "midget" is particularly offensive.  I didn't think "necker" was particularly offensive, either.  And I suppose when it comes to others' hurt feelings, I'm more in the "get over it" camp than in the "everyone else should be inconvenienced."

Are there any little players out there who are -actually- deeply offended by being referred to as a midget in casual conversation?
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

Namino

  • Posts: 404
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2019, 02:37:39 PM »
The question is not the IC use of the word midget, which I've repeatedly stated I understand as allowable within Zalanthas.

The question is whether its appropriate for an sdesc.   I don't believe slurs belong in sdescs even if I'm mostly fine with them being said by a character.

People seem to struggle to separate IC and OOC at times.

The debate then still is where player language and character language ends. You argue from the perspective that says tells and psis are character language, but sdescs and ldescs are player language. That's valid.

There are people who feel like their sdesc and ldescs are also under the purview of in character language. I don't think these people are bigots because they consider sdescs to be incharacter the same as says. There's actually quite a bit of staff input that sdescs require in character language, to be honest. You can be kalan-eyed. You cannot be mahogany skinned.

You certainly can be mahogany skinned, I've seen it variously.  Descs and sdescs are there for the player.  Things actually said by characters are IC.  Things written to describe are a quasi-OOC/IC, leaning more toward OOC.

I don't know why you feel the need to defend you and others' use of slurs, but it's been pretty eye opening to see how rabidly people have been posting about this.  People love their words that make others feel shitty, especially when they have no horse in the race except being very mildly inconvenienced.

Firstly,

Quote
Your application for a character named 'saqr' on Armageddon MUD has been rejected for the following reason(s):

Your main description is not valid. Your character's main description must be at least four full lines long, based on physical attributes, and make no refernce to his or her clothing, mood, actions, thoughts, or profession. For more information, see http://www.armageddon.org/intro/chargen.php#mdesc

Everything about your character is perfect, except the part talking
about a hickory tree.  There are no hickory trees in Zalanthas.  Take
a look at this Help file and see the related articles on the left:


Secondly, I haven't made my personal stance clear. I've simply categorized what I see the actual argument as -- not one of bigots versus 'social justice warriors', but one of where IC language applies and where it does not. If you were curious about my personal stance, here's a private conversation I had about half an hour ago with a friend on discord regarding this thread:

Quote
Them at 10:54 AM
:open_mouth:
What is your stance on such things?
How do you feel about 'midget' as a keyword in a sdesc
Me Today at 10:56 AM
I think sdescs and ldescs are OOC
Our character's aren't seeing "the brown haired woman"
They're seeing a person of 100 different characteristics.
'the brown haired woman' could be 'the fat-assed bitch' to her husband and 'the nubile dame' to her lover.
'the brown haired woman' is just an OOC convention to interface with our characters.
Them Today at 10:58 AM
So what position does that translate in to?
Me Today at 10:58 AM
So sdescs and lsdescs should adhere to OOC language. If we're not cool with someone typing >OOC Shut up you midget
Then midget should not be in sdescs.

But I don't run Armageddon and I don't get to tell people where IC language versus OCC language applies.

I do feel, Maxid, it's also important to inform you that arguing from a platform of "agree with me or you're a bad person" is a losing tactic.

maxid

  • Posts: 715
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2019, 02:48:54 PM »
I didn't say that, nor did I suggest it. 

I'm saying objectively that the word is considered a slur.  So it should probably not be allowed in sdescs, which are somewhat OOC.

Synthesis' argument doesn't even hold water, as I don't believe 'necker' 'sharp' or 'stump' are acceptable words in an sdesc. 

Synthesis' further argument, that slurs only matter if they personally offend Synthesis, is just sort of awkwardly self-centered.

Nobody is a bad person, that the word is considered a slur to little people isn't widely known.  That doesn't make it less of a slur.  It doesn't make you a bad person if you've used it in the past.  I personally feel that people that willfully and knowingly say slurs IRL are generally bad people, but I'm not the final authority on good/bad.   And my PCs definitely use slurs and are huge jerks ICly, because they're uneducated sand people scratching life out of a dying planet that don't know any better.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9761
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2019, 02:55:11 PM »
Every argument about how people feel about things is centered on how people actually feel about the things.

This isn't something that's derivable from factual first principles, except where the fact is "how person x feels."

The reference to the 'necker' argument was a reference to a similar argument, not an exact comparison, and the relevant comparison is how people feel about it, not where the word is being used (sdesc vs. IC speech).

Defining a word as a 'slur' is entirely dependent on whether people actually feel that it's a slur.  Stating that it objectively -is- a slur is a rhetorical trick.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 02:58:55 PM by Synthesis »
Quote from: WarriorPoet
I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords.
Quote from: Smuz
I come to the GDB to roleplay being deep and wise.
Quote from: Vanth
Synthesis, you scare me a little bit.

maxid

  • Posts: 715
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2019, 02:57:43 PM »
The argument isn't whether it offends.  It's whether Arm should allow recognized slurs to be used in sdescs.   Whether it personally offends Synthesis, master of beep boop logic, or not doesn't really matter.

Shabago

  • Storyteller
  • Posts: 282
Re: Androgyny and descriptions *READ FIRST LINE _FIRST_!*
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2019, 02:59:21 PM »
Gee, this went really well. Locking.
Nessalin: At night, I stand there and watch you sleep.  With a hammer in one hand and a candy cane in the other.  Judging.