Author Topic: Magickal Spook Factor  (Read 11434 times)

CodeMaster

  • Posts: 1130
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #75 on: January 14, 2019, 03:55:25 PM »
One time a mundane character of mine and an acquaintance were talking together at a table in the Gaj by themselves about how mages were disgusting, disturbing, etc. and it ended up so that we were forced by a mage who had overhead us to apologize to them for saying those things, having our hands forced by a templar. I'll tell you one thing--- that mage was always washed and clean.

lol... I think one of the hardest parts of playing a magick character is to concede to losing these exchanges.  I mean, you never know what factors were at play.  But the onus is on the magickers to let the mundanes rule the mundane parts of the game and to make themselves seem "rare".  Just like a mul could, but shouldn't, walk into the Gaj, order a drink, and slaughter every NPC soldier on her way back to the labyrinth.

I was actually trying to say how people who do these things and then attempt to be discovered, I give them brownie points. But, for the sake of the gameworld, especially since it is a small gameworld, it may not be the best idea to play the exception -every single time,-, or most of the time, or even half of the time.

I feel like there is a list of conducts that experienced players should take note of.  I'll rattle off a few from the top of my head (maybe I am wrong about some of these?).  All else being equal in some place like Allanak:
  • It is better to have pointed ears than a gem
  • It is better to be a known pickpocket than to have pointed ears
  • It is better to have a funny accent than to be a known pickpocket
  • It is better to be a known pickpocket than to be known to fraternize with magickers
  • It is better to wear silk in the Gaj than to sit with someone with a gem in the Gaj
  • It is better for an elf to be seen riding than to be outed as a magicker
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X-D

  • Posts: 5662
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #76 on: January 14, 2019, 05:06:52 PM »
You were doing alright till the last one.

The mixture of pride, nomadic tendencies, and the natural ability to run makes all elves ridicule the riding of mounts. To rely upon another beast to carry one around is considered an extreme sign of weakness among elves (even more than the inability to steal!). Even at the point of exhaustion, and when it comes to life and death situations, an elf would never admit to riding a mount. Even in the rare case of old age and in sickness, elves would refuse to ride about on a mount.

It would be easier for an elf to explain being a mage then riding a mount. At least to other elves...which is all that matters anyway....nobody cares about the lesser races.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 05:08:24 PM by X-D »
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
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gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 832
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #77 on: January 14, 2019, 05:09:51 PM »
It would be easier for an elf coming to terms with losing those pointed ears than riding a mount. That's a real quick way to get force stored. Quicker than dwarven foci breaking, IMO.
He is an individual cool cat. A cat who has taken more than nine lives.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2824
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #78 on: January 14, 2019, 05:13:09 PM »
I'll state what I did on my last elf character (Which is like, 2 characters ago), that when I typed 'mount' it flat out wouldn't let me on a mount.

But I digress.

In Dark Sun Elves /could/ ride, they just didn't unless they were dying. Even then if one of their clanmates were there, they'd prob die.

In Arm, this is different. Elves won't ride.

X-D

  • Posts: 5662
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #79 on: January 14, 2019, 05:14:17 PM »
And I know this is off topic...but many years ago, I had PC in the Byn and I think Sujaal was the sarge. We had an elf with us and wagon escort, we needed to leave...do not remember why, but likely some kind of danger or something, The elf totally refused to get on the wagon, would prefer be executed for desertion. He was knocked out, tied up, stuffed in a bag and tossed on the wagon...he never forgave any of us.

Good scene though.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2824
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #80 on: January 14, 2019, 05:40:10 PM »
And I know this is off topic...but many years ago, I had PC in the Byn and I think Sujaal was the sarge. We had an elf with us and wagon escort, we needed to leave...do not remember why, but likely some kind of danger or something, The elf totally refused to get on the wagon, would prefer be executed for desertion. He was knocked out, tied up, stuffed in a bag and tossed on the wagon...he never forgave any of us.

Good scene though.
Kudos that elf, he's a true knife ear.


I can't say for sure and only staff knows, and if at that probably vaguely unless they stalk the same player (This could probably be easy to spot though as a staffer if you just regularly check up on players. You check on X-D, see him kanking a mage. He dies. Three characters later you see him fucking another one.) but I think consistent 'setting breaking' is kinda bad. Every now and then? Yeah, sure.

I always try to have a quirk to my characters that goes against the grain /somehow/. I try to have multiple that go against the player grain
(Not necessarily the setting but, if every player in the world is being nice to 'x' people for some reason, I'll make a character that hates them. Even if setting wise it is neutral on whether or not 'x' is acceptable. Kinda like dwarves.)

So are there tons of players fucking mages? Only staff can say for sure or people who just watch these players IG and OOC know who they are. My opinion? Probably.

CodeMaster

  • Posts: 1130
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #81 on: January 14, 2019, 09:43:31 PM »
I have to admit I was kind of trawling with that one. :)
The neat, clean-shaven man sends you a telepathic message:
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gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 832
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #82 on: January 17, 2019, 02:33:39 PM »
Do you think a spell that has canned "power" emotes would help? I think having something similar for each magicker type would allow them a tool to give mundanes something to find unnerving without necessarily changing the power rankings.

The only issue I foresee is that mundanes will take off or attack when they see a magicker "begins to chant a spell" and their element reacting because they aren't sure what it'll be. This could be negated by  making it cast nearly instantly as opposed to the others. The rest time shouldn't be messed with though so you can't machinegun emote spells, not that I know why you would.

Viv: mists, droplets of blood, etc.
Whirans: buffeting winds, dust devils, floating for a short second, etc.
Krathis: fire, sparkles, embers, etc.
Rukkians: tremors, stone molding at their feet, rocks nearby trembling, the sounds of earth churning, etc.
Nilaz: weird stuff.
He is an individual cool cat. A cat who has taken more than nine lives.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2824
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #83 on: January 17, 2019, 03:02:44 PM »
Literally just...elementals do this with cantrips though? If a player decides "I'M NOT GOING TO REACT TO THIS MAGE BECAUSE HE ONLY EMOTED AND NOT SPELL" thats basically metagaming/powergaming and should be reported. Just because a mage can cast 'mon un whira cantrip' and hover for a few seconds doesn't mean he can't just fucking, emote the same thing.

I /WOULD/ like to see a default attack ability that isn't technically casting spells. Such as: Being able to manipulate already existing elements to do damage. Rocks shift and cause you to fall and hurt you, lava in the room smacks you, vines attack, etc.

Make it easier/harder in certain rooms, make it border line impossible for vivadu outside of vegetation. Hell, maybe make it hard to tell who's doing it without a scan roll.

Hauwke

  • Posts: 1928
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #84 on: January 17, 2019, 04:30:50 PM »
Literally just...elementals do this with cantrips though? If a player decides "I'M NOT GOING TO REACT TO THIS MAGE BECAUSE HE ONLY EMOTED AND NOT SPELL" thats basically metagaming/powergaming and should be reported. Just because a mage can cast 'mon un whira cantrip' and hover for a few seconds doesn't mean he can't just fucking, emote the same thing.

I /WOULD/ like to see a default attack ability that isn't technically casting spells. Such as: Being able to manipulate already existing elements to do damage. Rocks shift and cause you to fall and hurt you, lava in the room smacks you, vines attack, etc.

Make it easier/harder in certain rooms, make it border line impossible for vivadu outside of vegetation. Hell, maybe make it hard to tell who's doing it without a scan roll.

This goes for anytime anyone emotes anything. Just because it was only emote, does not mean it did not happen and it can be ignored.

gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 832
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #85 on: January 17, 2019, 05:11:12 PM »
I think you misunderstand. I'm trying to find an appropriate boundary to power emote. I think we could all agree that a magicker has things that would be appropriate for them to emote, but it would be too over the top or not fair to other players. Like a whiran emoting he summons a wind that's powerful enough to knock you to your feet or something. Canned emotes are written by staff and shouldn't butt up against what's not okay. Honestly, I think it'd be a fine tool to influence dynamic play. It's a show of power without coded consequences necessarily.
He is an individual cool cat. A cat who has taken more than nine lives.

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2824
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #86 on: January 17, 2019, 08:04:37 PM »
One: There are spells that kinda do this already in place, kinda. Find out ic? Maybe you know what I'm talking about.

Two: There exists documentation on what is and what is not okay for cantrips, which basically winds up being 'if it would do something you codedly can't do without -x- skill'.

Lighting a torch? Cool. Starting a fire to a tent? Actually, plausible as anyone with a torch can. Doing damage to someone? No.

I do wish it was a bit fleshed out. And I imagine part of being a karma having magic user is staff trusts you to know what is and what isn't okay in a cantrip emote.

gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 832
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #87 on: January 17, 2019, 08:08:27 PM »
One: There are spells that kinda do this already in place, kinda. Find out ic? Maybe you know what I'm talking about.

Two: There exists documentation on what is and what is not okay for cantrips, which basically winds up being 'if it would do something you codedly can't do without -x- skill'.

Lighting a torch? Cool. Starting a fire to a tent? Actually, plausible as anyone with a torch can. Doing damage to someone? No.

I do wish it was a bit fleshed out. And I imagine part of being a karma having magic user is staff trusts you to know what is and what isn't okay in a cantrip emote.

Yes. I know what you mean, but I am vying for an equivalent for each element type. And I agree with this, but I am also afraid to do too much because of how vague the boundary is. Maybe I'm the only one.
He is an individual cool cat. A cat who has taken more than nine lives.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6193
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #88 on: January 18, 2019, 01:10:58 AM »
The only thing that makes magick scary is magick-users doing scary things.

Be aggressive, mofos.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Greve

  • Posts: 165
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2019, 02:34:41 AM »
The only thing that makes magick scary is magick-users doing scary things.

Be aggressive, mofos.

I'm generally of the belief that if people aren't doing something, it's because it isn't compelling in some way, not because they haven't been told to do so on the forums. If magickers across the bord fail to be scary, it's due to a lack of reasons and opportunities to be scary. After all, people playing magickers are not uninformed newbies.

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6193
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #90 on: January 18, 2019, 06:45:45 AM »
The only thing that makes magick scary is magick-users doing scary things.

Be aggressive, mofos.

I'm generally of the belief that if people aren't doing something, it's because it isn't compelling in some way, not because they haven't been told to do so on the forums. If magickers across the bord fail to be scary, it's due to a lack of reasons and opportunities to be scary. After all, people playing magickers are not uninformed newbies.

I dunno, I think if it's more compelling to fuck them or get confused about whether you should be able to fuck them than it is to view them as scary, there aren't exactly a lot of them that make you antsy about whether or not it will truly hurt your character which leads to all sorts of more compelling RP reasons to not be afraid than be afraid.

It's not an attack, it's just a reminder; the more you foster the stories of overcoming prejudice or not being the evil mage, the less you foster the scariness that gets asked for.  It is also not to say that I wouldn't like to have other things to help.  But in the end, aggressive, mean, evil mages make whatever rendition of magick you do have...scarier.

So.  Make some aggressive magick stuff happen!
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Lizzie

  • Posts: 8017
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #91 on: January 18, 2019, 07:50:03 AM »
The only thing that makes magick scary is magick-users doing scary things.

Be aggressive, mofos.

100% disagree. There are two things that make magick scary:
1. The ability to do scary things, codedly.
2. The understanding and emphasis on (by the characters played by players who also understand and accept) that magickers can do scary things, codedly.

When either of these things fail to be true, magicks cease to be scary.


Also - "being scary" (in an active, assertive coded way) comes with risks. A rogue mage could take more risks, because he had more ability to be scary, as mages. Now, he is mostly just a mundane person, who is no more scary than any other mundane person, except he has a few toys in his toybox than others have. The risk vs. reward has been changed. So it's less likely that the rogue mage will take risks to reinforce his scariness to the rest of the playerbase. Risk being gemmed, or be hunted down, just because you can [do one of the few things in the touched by vivadu helpfile]? Risk being gemmed, or hunted down, just because you can [do a couple or three things from the touched by krath subguild]? If they won't take the risk, then no one will get to observe them being scary.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 07:55:45 AM by Lizzie »
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Greve

  • Posts: 165
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #92 on: January 18, 2019, 09:06:45 AM »
The only thing that makes magick scary is magick-users doing scary things.

Be aggressive, mofos.

I'm generally of the belief that if people aren't doing something, it's because it isn't compelling in some way, not because they haven't been told to do so on the forums. If magickers across the bord fail to be scary, it's due to a lack of reasons and opportunities to be scary. After all, people playing magickers are not uninformed newbies.

I dunno, I think if it's more compelling to fuck them or get confused about whether you should be able to fuck them than it is to view them as scary, there aren't exactly a lot of them that make you antsy about whether or not it will truly hurt your character which leads to all sorts of more compelling RP reasons to not be afraid than be afraid.

It's not an attack, it's just a reminder; the more you foster the stories of overcoming prejudice or not being the evil mage, the less you foster the scariness that gets asked for.  It is also not to say that I wouldn't like to have other things to help.  But in the end, aggressive, mean, evil mages make whatever rendition of magick you do have...scarier.

So.  Make some aggressive magick stuff happen!

The point I meant to make was that "aggressive magick stuff" is borderline impossible to do at this point. For the most part, magick characters are just mundane classes with a few spells, most of which don't assist in doing anything aggressive. There are certainly combinations of class and magick subclass that are powerful, but not so powerful that you can get away with making yourself the global enemy of the month. Point in case: there haven't really been any since the big change to elementalists and sorcerers. It's simply absent.

You can sit there all day and tell people to be aggressive, but without the abilities to really do so, people won't. At least not in any way that differs significantly from what mundanes can do. Maxed backstab is inherently scary, and slightly moreso if you can buff your strength, but it's not really something that fits the bill of "scary magick." Same goes for most of the other things that magick can do for you. Elementalists are mundanes with one token magick gimmick, few of which are legitimately dangerous.

I can't name a notorious magicker since the magick system changed. Not one. I've known of magickers but they weren't notorious. Gemmed aside, each and every one had magick as a secret thing that never really saw the light of day. None lived by it. I've even known one or two who were widely feared and were magickers but almost nobody knew it, they were feared for other reasons and the magick played no part whatsoever. Gone are the days where magick itself meant something. Players, and their characters, no longer experience reasons to fear magick.

The mage archetype of the past worked because the classes got enough spells to live by them. We can't go into detail here, but I'm sure most of us know why it was prudent to be scared of any given classification of elementalist. Now we know that that's no longer the case. Any given type of elementalist now consists of like four spells, of which perhaps one is even usable in an aggressive manner, and rarely counts for more in practice than a capped combat skill. If we're being honest, isn't maxed sap scarier than whatever most elementalists can do? Are you not more afraid of a dwarf with a club?

And for that reason, people drifted away from the fear of magick. It's not a big mystery why it happened. I think the elementalist and sorcerer subguilds were a great addition to the game, if they had been merely an addition. They make a poor replacement, though. There's a gaping void where the old mages used to be. I wouldn't spend any time wondering why magick isn't met with fear anymore, because it's so easy to see why. It's just an aspect of the game that has been missing since these changes, and no amount of forum posts will get players to react to something that's no longer a reality that they experience.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 09:32:51 AM by Greve »

Armaddict

  • Posts: 6193
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #93 on: January 18, 2019, 10:40:10 AM »
Quote
It is also not to say that I wouldn't like to have other things to help.  But in the end, aggressive, mean, evil mages make whatever rendition of magick you do have...scarier.

The rendition of magick you have now, people want scarier.  So play scarier things.

To state it more clearly, I very highly seriously truly doubt that another thread telling staff they made a mistake on mages is going to make them agree with that, and probably less likely to have them reverse it, because it's just not something staff does anymore.

This is the magick you got, you aren't likely to see changes.  If you do, hurray for the dozens of threads it took.
She wasn't doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. --J.D. Salinger

Silteyes

  • Posts: 4
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #94 on: January 18, 2019, 11:52:22 AM »
I can't name a notorious magicker since the magick system changed. Not one. I've known of magickers but they weren't notorious. Gemmed aside, each and every one had magick as a secret thing that never really saw the light of day. None lived by it.

*Ahem*

The lack of notoriety is probably due to characters in positions of power actively squashing rumors of magick. Mage characters can do their part, but they are dependent on other characters spreading the stories of them doing their part.

lostinspace

  • Posts: 715
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #95 on: January 18, 2019, 01:02:09 PM »
100% disagree. There are two things that make magick scary:
1. The ability to do scary things, codedly.
2. The understanding and emphasis on (by the characters played by players who also understand and accept) that magickers can do scary things, codedly.


Also - "being scary" (in an active, assertive coded way) comes with risks. A rogue mage could take more risks, because he had more ability to be scary, as mages. Now, he is mostly just a mundane person, who is no more scary than any other mundane person, except he has a few toys in his toybox than others have. The risk vs. reward has been changed. So it's less likely that the rogue mage will take risks to reinforce his scariness to the rest of the playerbase. Risk being gemmed, or be hunted down, just because you can [do one of the few things in the touched by vivadu helpfile]? Risk being gemmed, or hunted down, just because you can [do a couple or three things from the touched by krath subguild]? If they won't take the risk, then no one will get to observe them being scary.

With the karma changes these risks could very well mean a 75 day wait before you get to try again. I'm not going to roll into the Gaj on a 2 day krathi and emote having all the candles flare up, not when the risk is 73 days waiting before I have karma again.

I'm sure there's a sweet spot, but as of now, risk, and especially death, is more punishing than it has been since I joined in 2013.

When I joined mages were in part scary because of how fast they became dangerous. Now they take longer, especially if the start is 3 ig years in a sparring clan before they even start casting those spells.
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gotdamnmiracle

  • Posts: 832
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #96 on: January 18, 2019, 01:11:46 PM »
Perhaps we should get more roles for troublemakers? Like once a week or so there's a rolecall you can apply for, you don't choose anything about your PC and your given the task of "attempt to kill templar Sajix", or "empty the pockets of a byn sergeant". These could be magickers too. That way you wouldn't need to worry about your karma getting squished when the PC dies because they're essentially born to fail and it reinforces the aspects of the game we want.

Lastly it puts the onus on the player, rather than the staffer to animate a thing and make it evil.

As an aside, please don't become confused. This isn't a thread about yearning for the old elementalists back. We're fixing what we've got.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 02:12:42 PM by gotdamnmiracle »
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Nao

  • Posts: 1997
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #97 on: January 18, 2019, 01:38:42 PM »
The part about magickers getting “like four spells” is just factually wrong. Branch!

I have played a class that got zero spells that were useable in combat, but this was probably the worst possible class, and staff has hinted that the last spells that character would have branched were applicable in combat. He just died before he could branch them.

Now, another character? Got a number of aggressive spells. I would take those over another weapon or combat skill and without thinking twice about it. I am also sure people would have been more scared if they realized what he could do, but simply had no clue.

My IG experience with other magickers is similar. Most (touched exempt, I haven’t seen enough of those) seem to get an edge that extends beyond any single skill, and some of them, with the right combination of skills, are just stupidly powerful.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 01:40:13 PM by Nao »
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Lizzie

  • Posts: 8017
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2019, 02:58:22 PM »
The part about magickers getting “like four spells” is just factually wrong. Branch!

I have played a class that got zero spells that were useable in combat, but this was probably the worst possible class, and staff has hinted that the last spells that character would have branched were applicable in combat. He just died before he could branch them.

Now, another character? Got a number of aggressive spells. I would take those over another weapon or combat skill and without thinking twice about it. I am also sure people would have been more scared if they realized what he could do, but simply had no clue.

My IG experience with other magickers is similar. Most (touched exempt, I haven’t seen enough of those) seem to get an edge that extends beyond any single skill, and some of them, with the right combination of skills, are just stupidly powerful.

They're only "stupidly powerful" if they are rogue ungemmed. Once they use their magicks on another PC, they are - by definition "outted" and immediately ineligible for being clanned by anyone other than Oash - who might or might not have use for them (if it's anything other than a human, forget about it.) and they would immediately be subject to being gemmed, OR hunted down if they reject the gem.

Which is fine, really. All those risks are reasonable risks. For a full-fledged mage. For a warrior with a few magick spells? Nope. Not worth the risk. The point of splitting the magick elements up, was to remove the whole idea of someone being a "mage first, character second." The second you realize the risk, you cease to be a person and immediately become a mage first, everything else second. You are not identified as "that guy who can swing a sword like nobody's business and oh yeah he also knows some magick." You are no longer "the half-elf who's been breaking into all the apartments in the merchant apartment building" and immediately become "that gick breed with a lockpick."

People are STILL identifying magickers as - magickers. Except the point of changing the system was to eliminate that. It didn't work. so now we have a split most people didn't want, with the same risk if they get caught, but less power *within that sphere of identifying as a mage* to justify the risk. There's zero risk to being a miscreant, or human, or tradesman, or master crafter. There is the SAME risk to being codedly capable of succeeding with the "cast" command, as there always was. And less to justify that risk.
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Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

RogueGunslinger

  • Posts: 19110
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #99 on: January 18, 2019, 03:50:17 PM »
Give magickers a reach that, when earned somehow or at some cost, conceals the casting.

Allow magickers to pick a second subset of their element when they have fully branched the first. So a corruption Vivaduan can get healing magick. And so on.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 04:00:43 PM by RogueGunslinger »