Author Topic: Magickal Spook Factor  (Read 12211 times)

number13

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #100 on: January 18, 2019, 04:31:57 PM »
It's hard to read this thread some times and not want to spoil the shit out of in game events.

There are weirder things happening than many probably realize. Maybe the fact that people don't know about the weirdness is the problem? Personally, I think it's more fun to discover strange stuff happening IC, and be surprised.

gotdamnmiracle

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #101 on: January 18, 2019, 04:49:01 PM »
This thread is about a view along a long timeline. Longer than current events. Just because your current circumstances are cool and weird doesn't necessarily say much about the state of the problem.

Honestly, when staff is directly involved magick looks strange and terrifying. Lovecraftian even, at times. But that's equally problematic isn't it? If players lack all agency to reinforce game concepts then that's bad. I think we can all agree not to expect staff to constantly be trying to make a certain thing scary/abhorred/whatever. That's wasted time when we could do it on our own.

Hence why saying mundanes need to rp being afraid is moot. Even if that worked you've fixed half the problem, congratulations.
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X-D

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #102 on: January 18, 2019, 05:06:45 PM »
Like I said, give the player a choice of an extra reach in chargen or directly after...Oh sure, I know that would mean 90% would choose a certain one, but who cares. (I wouldn't choose the most well known one) And increase mana regen or mana pool. A mage with limited and/or weak spells is far more scary if he can cast them ALOT. Combined with an unknown reach putting a bit of random into the class means uncertainty, which gives some spook.

Oh, he is just a healy mage, sure he can heal for 100 points but only do it 3 times before out of mana...we can take him.

After change.

Oh he is a healy mage that can heal for 100 points and can do it 8 times...we can take him...But wait, what if he has the mirror spell (made up)reach(though it should be put in) and can harm for 100 points 8 times..........

I mean, it would not be hard to make em spooky/scary with just a bit of tweeking, specially if that tweeking adds a bit of randomness.
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Lizzie

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2019, 05:25:51 PM »
Like I said, give the player a choice of an extra reach in chargen or directly after...Oh sure, I know that would mean 90% would choose a certain one, but who cares. (I wouldn't choose the most well known one) And increase mana regen or mana pool. A mage with limited and/or weak spells is far more scary if he can cast them ALOT. Combined with an unknown reach putting a bit of random into the class means uncertainty, which gives some spook.

Oh, he is just a healy mage, sure he can heal for 100 points but only do it 3 times before out of mana...we can take him.

After change.

Oh he is a healy mage that can heal for 100 points and can do it 8 times...we can take him...But wait, what if he has the mirror spell (made up)reach(though it should be put in) and can harm for 100 points 8 times..........

I mean, it would not be hard to make em spooky/scary with just a bit of tweeking, specially if that tweeking adds a bit of randomness.

I kinda like this idea. I don't know anything about the reaches other than the ones that currently come with the magick subs. And one other from the "before times" back in the early 2000s. But the idea that a healing spell could either backfire, or cause a negative ricochet effect, seems kinda neato. And maybe a combat spell could also have an opposite backfire and positive ricochet effect.

Example:

cast mon heal amos
Amos looks healthier.
Malik, however, does not.

cast mon heal amost
Amos looks healthier.
You feel like shit.

cast mon fireball amos
Amos gets burnt
Malik, Amos's best pal, gets buffed for +2 strength.

cast mon fireball amos
Amos gets burnt
You get 2 hps restored.

These kinds of results would have two criteria: the quality of success of the cast, and a random dice roll. So - if the cast was flawless, there'd be a 5% chance of a side effect of the spell. If the cast was an almost-miss, it'd be a 30% chance of a side effect.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 05:30:06 PM by Lizzie »
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JohnMichaelHenry

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #104 on: January 18, 2019, 06:17:10 PM »
What kind of fear are we actually talking about here? I mean, there are gemmed mages walking all around Allanak. I'm not going to relocate every time one walks into the room. Is just talking to a mage going to get me ousted from a group of friends? If I'm a badass warrior who hunts and murders mages, how much fear is appropriate? Enough to be cautious, but not so much that I won't stab one in the eye? Since a mage is wearing a gem, can't I believe that the Highlord has that cursed gick under his control, and won't let anything happen to me? I think that Templars, with their position of power along with their magick, are pretty scary. Hatred is a little easier to RP than fear, I think. Fear can be controlled, so it is not always obvious to an outside observer. I don't really know what my point was with this post. :)
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
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Hauwke

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #105 on: January 18, 2019, 06:32:10 PM »
Give magickers a reach that, when earned somehow or at some cost, conceals the casting.

Allow magickers to pick a second subset of their element when they have fully branched the first. So a corruption Vivaduan can get healing magick. And so on.

I really like the conceal cast idea. Fixes a couple of issues I feel.

Brokkr

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #106 on: January 18, 2019, 06:41:55 PM »
And lets steer away from this particular topic of reaches, before someone feels compelled to let something slip.

Lizzie

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #107 on: January 18, 2019, 07:25:36 PM »
What kind of fear are we actually talking about here? I mean, there are gemmed mages walking all around Allanak. I'm not going to relocate every time one walks into the room. Is just talking to a mage going to get me ousted from a group of friends? If I'm a badass warrior who hunts and murders mages, how much fear is appropriate? Enough to be cautious, but not so much that I won't stab one in the eye? Since a mage is wearing a gem, can't I believe that the Highlord has that cursed gick under his control, and won't let anything happen to me? I think that Templars, with their position of power along with their magick, are pretty scary. Hatred is a little easier to RP than fear, I think. Fear can be controlled, so it is not always obvious to an outside observer. I don't really know what my point was with this post. :)

They are cursed, theoretically, according to legend and lore. So it's not necessarily a fear of what a mage will do intentionally to you if you get too close. It's also a fear of the curse upon them. If they get angry, it might manifest, unnaturally but also unintentionally, as a curse upon you in turn. If you get them sexually excited, the curse within their loins might unintentionally, and unnaturally, cause your own organs to shrivel up, or your first born child to be born a horribly disfigured mutant. Or your best friend to die within the next month. Or whatever else.

These are the potential results of hanging out with someone who bears a curse within every fiber of their being. It's not something they can get rid of. That aspect of their curse isn't something they can control. Either it'll happen or it won't, but you won't know til it's too late.

That is the theoretic fear with regards to hanging out with, talking to, sexing up, doing business with, or being in physically close proximity to mages. The mage is controlled by the gem. The element itself - perhaps not. You don't know, your character doesn't know enough about magicks, or mages, or gems, or the templarate to judge.
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JohnMichaelHenry

  • Posts: 188
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #108 on: January 18, 2019, 07:59:54 PM »
That's a good way to describe it Lizzie. And after rereading the magick docs, this section totally supports it.

Gemmed
(Magick)
Allanak's Elementalist Quarter is home to the gemmed: elementalists who bear a dull black gem fastened around their throats. These elementalists are said to be bound to the Highlord’s will through these devices and by extension the Templars of His city. This binding is proclaimed to render them "safe" or tolerable and by the letter of the Highlord’s law they are permitted to live and operate in the city like any other free citizen.

The gemmed are granted space in one of several "Temples" (an ancient word which possesses little modern meaning) which they are expected to restrict their practicing of their abilities to. Most of the Elementalist's Quarter's inhabitants live in these spaces, often finding accommodation in the wider city unwilling to take them as tenants.

While the gemmed are tolerated due to their association with the Templarate, they are widely hated, distrusted and feared. All sorts of misfortune and disaster are attributed to the Quarter's inhabitants and Allanak has seen many riots that have focused on the Temples. This widespread exclusion often simmers beneath the surface, kept in check by the city militia - though they are often more than willing to turn a blind eye.

Outside of public scrutiny though, some of Allanak's citizens are willing, when times are desperate enough, to seek out the gemmed for their services - real or imagined. Such liaisons, if discovered, are devastating for the transgressor’s social standing and likely their health - with the "taint" of magick being thought to stain them and follow them wherever they go.
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Michael Scott, The Warlock

Greve

  • Posts: 172
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #109 on: January 19, 2019, 04:28:45 AM »
The part about magickers getting “like four spells” is just factually wrong. Branch!

I was trying to avoid being too precise because that gets a post edited, so I didn't mean literally four. However, it's not so much more than four. In the context of magick being scary, that's about as many spells as most of the elementalist subclasses get. The rest is flavor and doesn't aid in doing any of what this thread is about. The point is that the arsenal of today's elementalist is too limited to let them be what mages used to be, and for many of the magick subclasses, the spells are largely overshadowed by your mundane skills. Yet, as Lizzie noted, you still are a 'gick and you still face the same disadvantages; but without the ability to really live by the spell instead of the sword, magick tends to become a sidenote. This has caused magick to become something people don't have much of a reason to care about.

number13

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #110 on: January 19, 2019, 10:01:33 AM »
The part about magickers getting “like four spells” is just factually wrong. Branch!

I was trying to avoid being too precise because that gets a post edited, so I didn't mean literally four. However, it's not so much more than four.

Maybe this is a spoiler, but the subguilds end up with more than four spells. Significantly much, much more.

Lizzie

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #111 on: January 19, 2019, 10:46:26 AM »
The part about magickers getting “like four spells” is just factually wrong. Branch!

I was trying to avoid being too precise because that gets a post edited, so I didn't mean literally four. However, it's not so much more than four.

Maybe this is a spoiler, but the subguilds end up with more than four spells. Significantly much, much more.

Seeing the forest through the trees:
Quote
you still are a 'gick and you still face the same disadvantages; but without the ability to really live by the spell instead of the sword, magick tends to become a sidenote. This has caused magick to become something people don't have much of a reason to care about.
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number13

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #112 on: January 19, 2019, 11:32:48 AM »

Quote
you still are a 'gick and you still face the same disadvantages; but without the ability to really live by the spell instead of the sword, magick tends to become a sidenote. This has caused magick to become something people don't have much of a reason to care about.

I disagree. Certain subguild + guild combinations are more powerful than most of the old main guild elementalists.

The big exception to this is the Whirans and the sorcs, because of two (maybe three) spells in particular. Those spells should have been severely nerfed a long time ago.

Akaramu

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #113 on: January 19, 2019, 03:09:45 PM »
I disagree. Certain subguild + guild combinations are more powerful than most of the old main guild elementalists.

The big exception to this is the Whirans and the sorcs, because of two (maybe three) spells in particular. Those spells should have been severely nerfed a long time ago.

You're not listening. This isn't about power, we all know that certain minmaxed combinations can become extremely powerful if they spend enough time hunting or sparring. But it's no longer possible to ONLY pursue magic. You need to develop your mundane skillset or else you're severely gimped. This isn't optional. It's not a choice. The mundane skillset is now forced down a mage's throat.

When I was playing a merchant / Whiran, it felt like I was playing a mundane merchant with all the disadvantages of the gem. Next time I'll just pick a 100% mundane role, it's almost the same thing with less disadvantages and far more social and RPT options.

And before anyone goes 'why would you play a merchant magicker and not a warrior / ranger / assassin' - because I roleplay instead of minmaxing? Because I had hope that there would be options not open to mundane merchants as compensation, such as magickal mastercrafts? Nope, not really. Also, I don't like Armageddon MUD's combat system and would prefer never having to deal with it ever outside of sparring in the Byn, which is kinda fun sometimes.

But now if I wanted to be a powerful mage I'd have to deal with the mundane combat system...  :(
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 03:17:26 PM by Akaramu »

AdamBlue

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #114 on: January 20, 2019, 03:07:42 AM »
Basic attack cantrips would be kewl.

MeTekillot

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #115 on: January 20, 2019, 03:17:39 AM »
Basic effect cantrips, in any case. I concur.
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Cind

  • Posts: 1833
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #116 on: January 20, 2019, 06:24:28 AM »
I know some people are saying "Try to remember how to roleplay appropriately to magick" but that didn't seem to work in the case of assuming city elves have tribes, some of which can wreck you. If I'd said that in the game, people would shrug it off at best, explain to me that no city-elf 'so-called tribe' can do that at the worst. Dwarves on the other hand, are considered forces to be reckoned with, because they have just enough social status, physical strength and trainability to be feared, while honestly you should be fearing a c-elf you don't know more, if you are an unprotected person. Until you know what that c-elf's tribe is capable of or connected with, its some risk messing with them enough to cause reasonable backlash. But there's no actual force behind a c-elf's threats, as their tribe does not provide Oash noble and aide -players- with spice--- just members of the House who aren't affecting your gameplay, and who can't affect the gameplay of player members of Oash. Dwarves, though? I still get a little frightened seeing a dwarf in Storm I don't know.

I also don't think tweaking mage subguilds' mundane abilities are the answer. If that happens and it works, great, but there's still a lot less magick than there was a couple years ago backing up that mage's threats. It makes me feel like my enemy is a warrior with magick spells, rather than a mage, and maybe its just me thinking that, but I can't get that analogy out of my head with regards to how I define current mages.
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number13

  • Posts: 1063
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #117 on: January 20, 2019, 12:10:00 PM »

When I was playing a merchant / Whiran,

You took a decidedly non-aggressive main class, and big surprise, had little aggressive potential. If you don't want to use the combat code, you could take one of the survival orientated classes, rarely touch the combat code, but still feel powerful. Try playing in a realm where you don't need a gem, skin your mundane skills as cantrips, and it can feel awesomely, absurdly powerful.

I do not miss the bad old days of main class Whirans. It's was a cheesy, grossly overpowered class. I'm not saying this of Vividians, Rukkians, or even Krathi. Whirans were a problem, and if that's what people want to get back to, I have zero sympathy.

It wasn't spooky. It's wasn't scary. It was lame.

The point is, if you want to RP a very spooky, magic-wielding character that inspires fear in other PCs, you can do that in today's Armageddon. You don't have to use weapons to do it.

If you want to kill other characters while sitting in near perfect safety, roll a Templar.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 12:28:04 PM by number13 »

Akaramu

  • Posts: 6794
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #118 on: January 20, 2019, 01:06:50 PM »

When I was playing a merchant / Whiran,

You took a decidedly non-aggressive main class, and big surprise, had little aggressive potential.

I had some VERY aggressive spells. That I didn't use. Because I wasn't playing an aggressive character, and because I wasn't playing an aggressive character (never do) the merchant choice was just fine, thank you very much. I loved the old Whirans because of their complete skillset (spell set?) that allowed for travel and exploration without combat and with no need to have a direction sense. It also allowed for some noncombat spookiness.

Mindbenders have lots of options for spookiness that don't involve coded combat. Why don't all of the new mages? Curses have been mentioned... I'd love to see curses that can be cast across great distances (meaning, from an elementalist temple...) and lower the maximum mana pool while they're maintained. To have max mana again you'd have to dispel your maintained curse(s).

I do not miss the bad old days of main class Whirans. It's was a cheesy, grossly overpowered class. I'm not saying this of Vividians, Rukkians, or even Krathi. Whirans were a problem, and if that's what people want to get back to, I have zero sympathy.

So what? Armageddon MUD wasn't meant to be balanced or 'fair', and that's one of the reasons I used to love it. No silly balance discussions where everyone whines about how their class needs a boost and some other class needs a nerf. Magick is supposed to be grossly overpowered, and Zalanthas' entire history reflects that fact. Which is why it should be feared in the first place...
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 01:14:40 PM by Akaramu »

X-D

  • Posts: 5677
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #119 on: January 20, 2019, 01:58:41 PM »
Wait...whirans? Easily the least powerful of all the mage classes and easiest to defeat? Once one single spell was removed they became almost neutered. Every other mage class was overpowered compared to whiran, specially vivs. Not that I am complaining, I think mages should be overpowered...if all they have is spells.

Currently I think they are grossly under powered, but I think that could mostly be fixed by some slight changes to mechanics and things I have already mentioned.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
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number13

  • Posts: 1063
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #120 on: January 20, 2019, 02:15:01 PM »

So what? Armageddon MUD wasn't meant to be balanced or 'fair', and that's one of the reasons I used to love it. No silly balance discussions where everyone whines about how their class needs a boost and some other class needs a nerf. Magick is supposed to be grossly overpowered, and Zalanthas' entire history reflects that fact. Which is why it should be feared in the first place...

Defilers are supposed be grossly overpowered. They are feared because they wound the world. Imagine if there was a guy walking around the real world who despoils acres farm lands, so that he could brew some tea, with a snap of his fingers. It's not the tea-brewing that's necessarily scary, it's the field of ash and starving population left in his wake.

Elementalists get flak because the commoner doesn't have the savvy to distinguish between an ash-layer and an elementalist. And because of propaganda efforts from the city-states. And, granted, because of the occasional magical explosion.

Quote
for travel and exploration without combat


Risk-free exploration cheapens the exploits of those who face danger to go to the same places. I don't think it's good for the game, at all. The idea of guy flying all around the world without direction sense is absurd, besides.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 02:17:41 PM by number13 »

The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #121 on: January 21, 2019, 05:14:44 AM »
Curses have been mentioned... I'd love to see curses that can be cast across great distances (meaning, from an elementalist temple...) and lower the maximum mana pool while they're maintained. To have max mana again you'd have to dispel your maintained curse(s).
This is clever, although I don't like the idea of it originating at such great distances. To curse someone, you should have to be in the same room as them. It should be a hidden cast, so that only the observant will notice it being cast.

I do like the idea of maintaining it over time, though I think that time should be related to the power with which you cast it. There are seven spheres of power - thus I'd suggest a RL day for each power it is cast at, from Wek at 1 RL day, to Mon at 7 full RL days.

Of course, you would also be able to remove your own curses, ideally.

Code: [Select]
>curse status
You are maintaining the curse of weakness at Een on the broad-shouldered woman.
You are maintaining the curse of thirst at Mon on the bearded, grey-eyed templar.
Your mana pool is currently weakened by 35 points.
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AdamBlue

  • Posts: 843
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2019, 11:31:20 AM »
You know, gotta be honest. With all the years and years gone by of elementalists within Allanak, I'm surprised that people haven't gotten wise that 'elementalists aren't the shitty ones' in terms of magick.
I guess the obvious answer is, 'the templars keep people afraid of the elementalists because they don't want commoners getting more associated with magick users, and they keep up the bias that way. A regular person who would become jealous of a magicker may turn to sorcery'.
That's a lot of work, though, on the part of the templarate, to keep that shit up for so long.
CONVERSELY, HOWEVER
The way it currently is that elementalists are tools of the city and the templarate, and 'the more of them, the better' is how the city operates, since having a templar that has a guy who can heal his wounds / pyroblast his enemies / assassinate someone while flying.
Being gemmed is a gigantic social stigmata that can make or break a lot of people. Often, people who have magickal potential will either kill themselves out of disgust, flee the city out of fear of being gemmed, or begrudgingly become gemmed. Being 'gemmed' is something similar to becoming a slave, as no matter where you go, you will be known as a magicker, and you are easily spotted and easily slain with nary an excuse.

This argument made, I would have a hard time understanding why Templars would keep up the whole 'magick is a curse' schtick when the chances of sorcery is relatively low and to encourage less rogue elementalists would be a far easier solution. It would result in more elementalists, better relations between elementalists and regular people (holy shit check it out no more fucking elementalist quarter riots isn't that a fucking thing) and a more stable and unified Allanak as a whole.
It baffles me that a city-state attempting to ensure the cooperation of all of the citizens under a god-king-dragon would willingly try and shame one of their most useful assets to the city and mark them as targets to the Known.

ABoredLion

  • Posts: 118
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2019, 02:22:58 PM »
Whirans are massively spooky in current gen. The other three, regardless of set up, basically aren't. Removing one thing didn't make them less potent, hah. They still got massive murder potential for little effort.

Spooky curses could be cool. Also sounds like it'd be just ridiculously annoying as a well known person though, because you're going to have like, 10 curses on you at a given time the second you make one enemy. Not sure I entirely approve but I have some tentative curiosity. Maybe it could be set up to affect people with magick in some form or another less.

I think setting up any given magicker to have terrifying potential (and not just through some spam-cast DPS spell or something, cause that's just not going to compare given Arm's style of melee combat spam, with the delays involved) is the way to go personally. I hope staff are working on this or thinking about it at least. There's a lot of opinions going around here, and the thread seems to have pushed into thoughts on things in a way that's cool.

lostinspace

  • Posts: 725
Re: Magickal Spook Factor
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2019, 04:06:11 PM »
There could easily be other avenues for getting rid of curses. If you're already cursed, maybe it's worth it to find someone who can fix it.

How much is that gemmer in the Quarter,
the one who makes curses go away.
How much is that gemmer in the Quarter,
pay him and have a less shitty day.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 04:08:00 PM by lostinspace »
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