Author Topic: Strength  (Read 7297 times)

Brokkr

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Re: Strength
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2018, 12:19:32 PM »
All the classes cap O/D at the same point.

HG are an outlier, especially if you are considering any before a year or two ago, as there was a way for them to become essentially immune to elf level melee damage. That won’t happen now.

X-D

  • Posts: 5644
Re: Strength
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2018, 12:42:24 PM »
Lostinspace: I am pretty sure the HG player was not watching his stun...likely because it is not something that a HG normally needs to pay a lot of attention to. My elf used dual blunt because he was too weak to do real HP damage through armor but had the agi to get several light head/neck/body blows in quickly...which add up fast and could usually KO a human in a few seconds, dwarves as well. And he was a rather known Red Fang and raider so, he did not wanna kill if he did not have to.

Anyway, I think the stats balance is fine.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

MeTekillot

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Re: Strength
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2018, 12:45:58 PM »
No it isn't. Powergamers should not be the standard that balance is held to.
It's a lot more admirable to be strong in a game where strength comes at enormous risks.

X-D

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Re: Strength
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2018, 12:56:12 PM »
Whatever man, you are applying a label to something without any knowledge on it. What is a "powergamer"?

And what should the standard be?

I know that very same elf would have been dead by the no emote salarr crew leader attack when he was 2 hours old if not for his crazy AGI. Ooops...wait, powergamer..does not count.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10315
Re: Strength
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2018, 01:04:39 PM »
So desert elf very good strength and dozens of days of playtime is supposed to be an example of strength being balanced because you whooped some newbie half-giants?

EDIT: Re-read the posts. So 20+ days of playtime (this is X-D playtime, not normal player playtime) and very good DESERT elf strength, against as you say, non-newb HGs.
It's a lot more admirable to be strong in a game where strength comes at enormous risks.

evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1968
Re: Strength
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2018, 01:06:05 PM »
a powergamers word is probably the best persons word to take in this situation because it means he has considered nearly every facet of how the stats and skills work in symbiosis. it means that he knows more about combat than you do, and would know more about what was balanced than you do.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

lostinspace

  • Posts: 684
Re: Strength
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2018, 01:09:52 PM »
For those of us power gaming by prioritizing stats in character creation I'll give you my super helpful tip to making a successful combat character.

Prioritize strength, hope for other good stats.


Or if you want to keep your characters alive a while do what I do and prioritize endurance on every character. You can get mauled by a drov beetle as a 5 day burglar and survive with AI endurance human.
3/21/16 Never Forget

MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10315
Re: Strength
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2018, 01:10:22 PM »
Not when the logic is "If I can do it, so can you". Not everyone is X-D and expecting anyone who wants to play an effective combat character (or like, an elf who wants to carry a full skin of water) to pursue his knowledge is unreasonable.
It's a lot more admirable to be strong in a game where strength comes at enormous risks.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8876
Re: Strength
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2018, 01:19:35 PM »
MeT, I wonder if Strength influences the actual to-hit number, or if it relates to breaking through armor and shield use after the dodge has been calculated. If I remember right, I think dodge is calculated first, and then a new series of calculations are required for shield use, and finally for the actual contact. If strength affects the actual to-hit number, then yeah, I'd agree that should change. But I think agility is used for that first set of calculations.

But I really want to encourage people to think about things from a IC perspective here, regardless. Humans should absolutely understand what dwarves are, and they should plan appropriately. Jump them with your buddies if you're scared of them. Don't expect to be able to beat dwarves, or muls, or HGs, by yourself. Yeah, they're strong; they're animals, they're beasts. Treat them like they are what they are.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


lostinspace

  • Posts: 684
Re: Strength
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2018, 01:41:05 PM »
MeT, I wonder if Strength influences the actual to-hit number, or if it relates to breaking through armor and shield use after the dodge has been calculated. If I remember right, I think dodge is calculated first, and then a new series of calculations are required for shield use, and finally for the actual contact. If strength affects the actual to-hit number, then yeah, I'd agree that should change. But I think agility is used for that first set of calculations.

But I really want to encourage people to think about things from a IC perspective here, regardless. Humans should absolutely understand what dwarves are, and they should plan appropriately. Jump them with your buddies if you're scared of them. Don't expect to be able to beat dwarves, or muls, or HGs, by yourself. Yeah, they're strong; they're animals, they're beasts. Treat them like they are what they are.


If that were the case we would see Meks more or less ignoring shields with their huge str. Block seems to function the same regardless of your opponents strength, weapon skill, etc.
3/21/16 Never Forget

Boogerbear

  • Posts: 87
Re: Strength
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2018, 01:48:16 PM »
Low halfgiant agi is real. I would not be surprised if a low agility giant died to a high agility elf. It probably only got a turn to attack 4-5 times to the elves 30 chances. And double that for dual wield. What surprises me is that the giant didn't just run off when he realized. Was probably hoping for that 1 big hit to one shot.

In a glad match years ago, the elf was winning, but a half-giant just spam-bashed the elf, never missing and slaughtering said elf who dodged all attacks while unbashed.
Bear with me

The7DeadlyVenomz

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Re: Strength
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2018, 01:50:10 PM »
If that were the case we would see Meks more or less ignoring shields with their huge str. Block seems to function the same regardless of your opponents strength, weapon skill, etc.
Not necessarily. A skilled shield user will still set a high enough DC for the Mek that the Mek will fail to breach the shield. The Mek's high strength just means that they have a higher chance of beating the DC set by their victim.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


cnemus

  • Posts: 201
Re: Strength
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2018, 02:08:31 PM »
I have played effective melee combatants with strength last in priority. I have also defeated HG in melee with humans. I have seen HGs beat by dwarves and elves. I do not see strength as the only significant factor in combat. It has an effect, just like agility, endurance, tactics, equipment, skills, and experience with combat.

I don't see anything that needs changing.
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zztri

  • Posts: 48
Re: Strength
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2018, 02:40:08 PM »
No it isn't. Powergamers should not be the standard that balance is held to.

Powergamers should not be standart - strength doesn't allow me to powergame.

Pick one and defend it. Drop the other.

lostinspace

  • Posts: 684
Re: Strength
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2018, 02:57:27 PM »
If that were the case we would see Meks more or less ignoring shields with their huge str. Block seems to function the same regardless of your opponents strength, weapon skill, etc.
Not necessarily. A skilled shield user will still set a high enough DC for the Mek that the Mek will fail to breach the shield. The Mek's high strength just means that they have a higher chance of beating the DC set by their victim.

I propose an experiment. Next time you have master shield use go hit something weak, and then only count the times you're hit and the times you block. Defend for a good while, at least 10 minutes.

Now go find something stronger, again only counting hits and blocks, not dodge/parry. If you're correct this number should change in a measureable way as you fight stronger and stronger opponents. If I'm correct as your time defending approaches infinity you should see that you block the same percentage of the time regardless.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 03:00:28 PM by lostinspace »
3/21/16 Never Forget

Eyeball

  • Posts: 1049
Re: Strength
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2018, 03:14:14 PM »
I have played effective melee combatants with strength last in priority. I have also defeated HG in melee with humans. I have seen HGs beat by dwarves and elves. I do not see strength as the only significant factor in combat. It has an effect, just like agility, endurance, tactics, equipment, skills, and experience with combat.

I don't see anything that needs changing.

A problem here is that dwarves are a long step toward being muls, but only require 0 karma. This can't really be said about humans, because strength is so important. And definitely can't be said about elves or half-elves.

roughneck

  • Posts: 826
Re: Strength
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2018, 03:25:23 PM »
I think the frustrating part of stats, is that human 'Average' feels like the threshold of playability for most of them. Poor agility -sucks-. Poor strength -sucks-. Poor endurance -sucks-. Your PC feels like they should be in a wheelchair with any of these.

Poor wisdom (magickers excluded) is actually still pretty playable if you have a decent grasp on how the skills work.

The threshold changes if it's your primary stat, but if you prioritize something it will almost always be a VG or higher.

lostinspace

  • Posts: 684
Re: Strength
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2018, 03:32:26 PM »
I think the frustrating part of stats, is that human 'Average' feels like the threshold of playability for most of them. Poor agility -sucks-. Poor strength -sucks-. Poor endurance -sucks-. Your PC feels like they should be in a wheelchair with any of these.

Poor wisdom (magickers excluded) is actually still pretty playable if you have a decent grasp on how the skills work.

The threshold changes if it's your primary stat, but if you prioritize something it will almost always be a VG or higher.

Try a poor agility HG, 2 inventory slots is ye most frustrating mechanic I've ever encountered.
3/21/16 Never Forget

roughneck

  • Posts: 826
Re: Strength
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2018, 03:39:48 PM »
I think the frustrating part of stats, is that human 'Average' feels like the threshold of playability for most of them. Poor agility -sucks-. Poor strength -sucks-. Poor endurance -sucks-. Your PC feels like they should be in a wheelchair with any of these.

Poor wisdom (magickers excluded) is actually still pretty playable if you have a decent grasp on how the skills work.

The threshold changes if it's your primary stat, but if you prioritize something it will almost always be a VG or higher.

Try a poor agility HG, 2 inventory slots is ye most frustrating mechanic I've ever encountered.

I've done it! Sucks.

The trick is to carry a Mary Poppins style agafari trunk around.



Or be a Nilazi.

Dar

  • Posts: 1406
Re: Strength
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2018, 04:36:06 PM »
I think whomever recommends elves to favor agility based combat (thrown weapons, bows) Have not actually done it themselves before :).

Thrown weapon is strength based. When a dwarf throws a weapon with that skill on master, they might deal immense damage, while an elf with master weapons and Extremely good agility will deal so little, the target wont even get to moderate injury.

I too think that strength is far too advantageous, compared to other skills.

Here's a question.
Can a human with an exceptional strength reach the level of weapon skill/offense to have a 50/50 chance to hit a celf with AI agility and maxed out defense(Or Delf. Whomever has the higher cap on agility. I think Celves have higher, then delves).   

If a human can reach the point that 1 in 2 hits will hit that maxed out elf with reliability, then strength by faaaaaaaar outperforms agility. If a human reaches a point in weapon skill/offense to have an 80-90% chance of hitting 'anything' regardless of agility. Then discussing whether or not strength is OP is, I think, silly.

And talking about the whole 'celves' should favor agility based tactics, instead of strength ones. While true. Many people who recommend that, dont really know what they're talking about.

Thrown weapons are 'not' agility based tactics. They're strength based. Half-giant movement speed is higher then Celven one.

Bow weapons rely heavily on strength and agility both. Agility to hit. Strength to the damage range. But generally, on high enough levels, both agility and strength becomes moot. You always hit, but rarely enough to disable in one shot. Bow combat is more employing the keyboard twitch skills, then any other stat. Once again, Half Giants walk faster then Delves. And Bow combat shouldnt even be a factor in the cities.

Blowgun Combat (Now ... THAT is curious. I have no idea. Somehow I suspect/hope/dream that agility is THE stat for it. I have hope)

Stealing all weapons/cures, then backstabbing. That is indeed the strategy of a Celf and agility plays a vast role in stealing skill. Though it doesnt allow Ninja OHKs and dissapear into the night, type of kills like dwarves are capable of, for example. Except with stealth skills, even humans can reach a near perfect stealth skills and this type of combat situations are picked when a person is resting/sitting/unprepared. Therefore scan is out and anything short of critical failure is safe for all stealth races. Therefore agility is while important, is not paramount.

Strength effects
Encumbrance level (which affect defense/offense,etc)
Damage  (With an extra oomph, if you use etwo and is always a factor, regardless of weapon skill)
Type of weapon one uses
Type of armor they use.
Type of bow they use.
Quantity of Ammunition.
How prepared they are at 'all' times.
Possibly (I have no proof of this) to hit chances? Maybe only with etwo

Agility effects
Evasion  (Potentially not enough to outperform the accuracy given by skill accuracy bonus)
Accuracy  (Potentially moot, as skills can often reach a near perfect accuracy range)
Success on stealth/steal skills.
Speed of how often you hit. But is there a difference between celven AI, and celven EG? Or does this cap out?
Backstab accuracy (while skill will eventually bring backstab to 100% hit chance, it will not do so against an opponent that is already in combat. While maybe with high agility it can. So yes. While celven max damage is around 60 with backstab compared to 90 with humans. A situation where 2 celves backstab at the same time with reliable success does exist.)

Am I missing anything?


Overall. Its not that strength is overpowered. Its that its effects are always high and impactful despite the skill levels. While agility is impactful when skill levels are low, it loses more and more utility as one gets more and more masterful. Until eventually invalidating the stat to a vast (but not whole) percentage.

In the end, you can end up with two pcs, who never miss in combat and hit with a near similar frequency. Except one has good agility and exceptional strength. While the other has AI agility and good strength.  The one with exceptional strength will win 100% of the time.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 05:06:35 PM by Dar »

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2791
Re: Strength
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2018, 04:46:23 PM »
"I think whomever recommends elves to favor agility based combat (thrown weapons, bows) Have not actually done it themselves before"

I sadly can't expand on this as I've never played an elf with garbage agility + strength.

roughneck

  • Posts: 826
Re: Strength
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2018, 04:58:27 PM »
I think whomever recommends elves to favor agility based combat (thrown weapons, bows) Have not actually done it themselves before :).


You're fairly on point with throwing - I would never use it with low strenth against PC's, however it's effective against NPC's in some situations.

Dead wrong on bows though. High agility is beneficial, mobility is -very- beneficial, particularly if you're familiar with the kiting technique, which works amazing in Arm if you can type and think fast.

Agility is also very beneficial for dodging arrows, which matters if you're in a bow vs bow situation.

Krath

  • Posts: 2539
Re: Strength
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2018, 06:12:55 PM »
I guess I am confused. It was my understanding that Armageddon was not supposed to be a fair or balanced game as far as skills,classes, attributes and races go.

I have two questions:

What problem are we trying to solve?

For staff:
Is the game supposed to be completely balanced and fair across all classes, races, and skills?
Armageddon is best when it's actually harsh and brutal, not when we're only pretending that it is.

Dar

  • Posts: 1406
Re: Strength
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2018, 06:19:21 PM »
[quote author=roughneck
Dead wrong on bows though. High agility is beneficial, mobility is -very- beneficial, particularly if you're familiar with the kiting technique, which works amazing in Arm if you can type and think fast.

Agility is also very beneficial for dodging arrows, which matters if you're in a bow vs bow situation.
[/quote]

Mobility and agility have nothing to do with each other though. An HG with poor agility is faster then a Celf with AI agility. Also has more endurance to outpace them.

Dar

  • Posts: 1406
Re: Strength
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2018, 06:29:31 PM »
I guess I am confused. It was my understanding that Armageddon was not supposed to be a fair or balanced game as far as skills,classes, attributes and races go.

The "this game is not ment to be balanced" is becoming the new phrase given in and out of place. Yes. The game is ment to be unfair. People on higher step of the social ladder should be more influential then you are. Characters of higher karma rate tend to have extreme level of deadly power. Gladiator slaves that are bred for combat probably are stronger, faster, resilient compared to free folk. But there 'are' costs. Usually in freedom, interaction, rarity, karma costs, etc.

We are discussing concepts that are equal. Where one concept should be equally good, but in a different niche. When one concept so definitely outpaces the other three, it becomes a concept that everyone chooses. If you make slashing weapons be more accurate/faster/deadlier/lighter/cheaper then any other weapon skill, do not be surprised when 98% of the playerbase choses to prioretize slashing weapons. And the last 2% have different weapon on them either due to some roleplayed choice (noble with a fancy rapier) and full understanding that it will lose them a fight, or characters whose lifestyles do not involve fighting at all. These situations are not normal and the phrase "this game is not supposed to be balanced", does not apply. Please stop using it as a catch all phrase.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 08:07:57 PM by Dar »