Author Topic: Strength  (Read 5746 times)

tapas

  • Posts: 357
Strength
« on: November 22, 2018, 11:29:38 PM »
Strength really really needs a fix.

Currently it appears to be the only stat that matters in combat. And even max combat skills barely even seem to factor against strength.

Back in the day when we had full-guild magickers and boosted-gain rangers it was not such a big deal if you couldn't hit as hard as a dwarf. Back then the primary goal was to branch parry to give your character some survivability.

But now, playing a low strength combat character is a CHRONIC disappointment. Even after 20 days of constant sparring and grinding against known training mobs, you're still going to get beat out by a two day dwarf.

This is without how much of a pain in the ass it is to carry anything but a single skin of water around.

It's a broken, frustrating mess.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 11:31:24 PM by tapas »

Delirium

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Re: Strength
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2018, 11:39:27 PM »
Back in the day parry wasn't "fixed", and I (could be wrong but) agility also meant a lot more.

Strength has always been the #1 stat, it has just become increasingly moreso and obvious after some code changes.

Tie endurance into carry weight so strength isn't such an absolute when it comes to wearing heavier armor.

Strength could stand to be leveled out among the races. The ranges for humans seems fine.

Bump it up some for elves, bump it down for dwarves and half-giants. Muls are fine.
"There are no happy endings, because nothing ends." - Schmendrick

tapas

  • Posts: 357
Re: Strength
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2018, 11:44:12 PM »
Alternatively. It might just be easier to apply bonus damage after locational modifiers.

So that dwarf with +4 doesn't get +8 that on neck hits. And the elf is not similarly penalized.

650Booger

  • Posts: 593
Re: Strength
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 12:03:38 AM »
isn't it world appropriate that an average dwarf should be able to defeat most humans in direct combat?  they are little hairless balls of muscle.
"Historical analogy is the last refuge of people who can't grasp the current situation."
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MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10169
Re: Strength
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 12:05:21 AM »
Strength is an overwhelming factor in fights for humans because we are all roughly as fast as each other. Elves have superhuman reflexes as per the docs, don't they?
we are here to hack motherfuckers up with bone swords,

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2703
Re: Strength
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 12:14:08 AM »
Elven agility is pretty fucking good, can confirm.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8868
Re: Strength
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 12:20:06 AM »
Strength governs the hp damage per blow.

Dex governs things like how fast you attack and also dodge.

Do you know how anybody kills half-giants in hand-to-hand combat? By being faster than them.

I'm suggesting that all is balanced and whatnot - I've just come back and I've experienced very little combat as of yet. However, based on my own current character stats and combative results, I have a feeling I'm still right.

So I think things are alright as they are. Dwarves were terrors back in the day, and they'll always be that, because that's what they are supposed to be.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


tapas

  • Posts: 357
Re: Strength
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2018, 12:27:39 AM »
Do you know how anybody kills half-giants in hand-to-hand combat?

You don't beat half-giants in hand-to-hand combat.

tapas

  • Posts: 357
Re: Strength
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2018, 12:29:54 AM »
The problem is not that dwarves have good strength. Once again, the problem is that strength is too good. Maybe a dwarf might beat a human generally? But a human with extensive combat training shouldn't have to expect to get rolled by every dwarf.

And if you roll badly. Then tough luck for you kiddo. You should have prioritized strength. Suicide and try again.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 12:37:54 AM by tapas »

Jihelu

  • Posts: 2703
Re: Strength
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2018, 01:01:58 AM »
I don't know if you've just had bad luck my guy but I've played a human assassin with poor strength that could spar warriors who had more than three times my playtime.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8868
Re: Strength
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2018, 01:34:37 AM »
Do you know how anybody kills half-giants in hand-to-hand combat?

You don't beat half-giants in hand-to-hand combat.
It can happen.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


oggotale

  • Posts: 26
Re: Strength
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2018, 02:18:20 AM »
isn't it world appropriate that an average dwarf should be able to defeat most humans in direct combat?  they are little hairless balls of muscle.

Yea, his case was an instance of a warrior that trained for 20 days, so a third of a year (assuming he meant IRL playtime). This warrior being beaten by a zero-experience dwarf seems pretty reasonable actually, a 20 IRL day trained warrior could even be beaten by a more gifted human with no experience I'd imagine, I'm visualizing a brawl though.

What's the main problem people have with strength as is though?
Is it that having strength affect combat so wildly means that cumbersome RNG (when you roll stats) determines how powerful your character can be? Or is it that race-differences in combat ability become too pronounced due to different strength rolls?

For the latter, even with strength advantages, it seems that non-humans are still rare enough and non-prominent enough to maintain a low-fantasy vibe, why bother with "nerfing" their strength?

X-D

  • Posts: 5607
Re: Strength
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2018, 02:19:53 AM »
Quote
Quote from: tapas on Today at 12:27:39 AM



Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on Today at 12:20:06 AM

Do you know how anybody kills half-giants in hand-to-hand combat?




You don't beat half-giants in hand-to-hand combat.

My Human PCs do....no problem.
My elf PCs do downright easily.

And honestly, if you have a 20day heavy combat PC and you are getting beat by a 2 day dwarf....Um....no you are not. That or you did something DRASTICALLY wrong in your combat training, like...you have no combat training. OR...it is not a 2 day dwarf.

Does strength mean something to combat? Yup, Should it? Yup. Is it a majority? Nope...not even close.
I find the stats and races to be quite balanced....long as I actually play to the strengths of said race.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 02:26:07 AM by X-D »
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
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tapas

  • Posts: 357
Re: Strength
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2018, 02:22:48 AM »
Pardon my incredulity. But did it involve 20+ arrows?

X-D

  • Posts: 5607
Re: Strength
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2018, 02:27:48 AM »
For the elf....20+ days played ranger with a pair of clubs...and not verses newb HGs either.
Cannot damage what you cannot hit baby. There are players that still play that can back that up in fact, not sure on the HG players, but I know the player of the warrior tribemate still plays. It was at the span, 2 elves verses 2 HG, one elf KO'd early and mine killed one HG in melee then had to chase the other back to Tuluk.

Oh, and my Elf had just short of AI agi and only VG str.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 02:35:28 AM by X-D »
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8868
Re: Strength
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2018, 02:34:58 AM »
You're underestimating the effect of agility on combat. HGs have the worst agility of the playable races, which both effects how much they dodge, and how many attacks they get off. Obviously, the defensive and offensive skills change this as they go up, but that agility is the HG weakness.

A day one HG will probably kill a day one human, but that's because they only have to hit you a few times. When the skill levels of the participants rises, the results change a little bit. It's not ever going to make fighting a giant hand to hand safe, but it makes it possible.

Just stay away from that head shot.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


X-D

  • Posts: 5607
Re: Strength
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2018, 02:37:00 AM »
Hell...always think fighting the HG is stupid...even if you drastically outskill them...just like RL...there is always that chance for the lucky (or unlucky) Shot.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Eyeball

  • Posts: 979
Re: Strength
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2018, 02:38:36 AM »
There can be no doubt that strength makes a tremendous difference in a fight. Strong characters have an advantage that allow them to trounce characters that are significantly more skilled.

I'm not sure I find this reasonable. Skill should play more of a role in such in fight. Why should strength give both a bonus to damage and a bonus to the chance to hit, for example? Perhaps the latter bonus could be reduced somewhat.

The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8868
Re: Strength
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2018, 02:41:35 AM »
I'm not sure strength helps you to hit. It just makes a nick a solid hit.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


The7DeadlyVenomz

  • Posts: 8868
Re: Strength
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2018, 02:42:53 AM »
... fighting the HG is stupid ... there is always that chance for the lucky (or unlucky) Shot.
Yep.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


evilcabbage

  • Posts: 1968
Re: Strength
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2018, 04:48:31 AM »
also arguing combat code with x-d is about the worst thing you can do.

i know a lot about combat and how it works. x-d knows what i would refer to as "everything a reasonable player could possibly know and then some" about how combat works.
I could give a shit about wholesome.

Synthesis

  • Posts: 9680
Re: Strength
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2018, 08:47:10 AM »
HGs are not even in the same range of consideration.

For ordinary combat comparisons, the balance consideration is between dwarves, humans, half-elves, desert-elves, and city-elves.  Also, you can't speak about d-elves and c-elves like they're the same, because they aren't.

The current class breakdown is seriously going to muddy the discussions as well, because there seem to be pretty huge differences in starting and capped base O/D.

The best bet, like I've said before, is to stop playing city-elves, unless you're doing it as a miscreant or artisan.
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MeTekillot

  • Posts: 10169
Re: Strength
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2018, 09:29:50 AM »
I'm not sure strength helps you to hit. It just makes a nick a solid hit.
Staff have said strength influences your tohit chance.
we are here to hack motherfuckers up with bone swords,

lostinspace

  • Posts: 669
Re: Strength
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2018, 12:03:20 PM »
Low halfgiant agi is real. I would not be surprised if a low agility giant died to a high agility elf. It probably only got a turn to attack 4-5 times to the elves 30 chances. And double that for dual wield. What surprises me is that the giant didn't just run off when he realized. Was probably hoping for that 1 big hit to one shot.
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CodeMaster

  • Posts: 1128
Re: Strength
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2018, 12:12:38 PM »
I kind of like the current balance.  High agility humans/elves just shouldn't stand with dwarves - you're going to get Oberynned.  I really feel that's how it should be.  There are a ton of different ways to do combat in the game that favor agility (thrown weapons, the various kinds of archery, poison, and surprising the hell out of someone before they get their weapons out).
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